Delta Lounge

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Originally Posted by Ryu

I think it might be good to take away from this how much LSE's appreciate an EII's smile - because it's not an Fe-valuing smile.

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Do you have an example of what you mean by this? (picture or description)

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Originally Posted by Marie84

I see what you're getting at, though modesty is sort of a gray area in this day in age, that it wouldn't be surprising for Delta NF women, especially younger ones, who may think it's expected of them to appeal to current fashion, or they may not even see modesty in the typical sense due to the diverse notion of what that is in the first place

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Yes, I've seen that somewhat.

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For instance, I wouldn't think it shocking to see a Delta NF teenager wearing short-shorts if that's what most girls are wearing.
When I was that age sports wear/tomboyish look was what was popular and I dressed that way, even though I didn't like it, since I didn't want to draw attention to myself. But that's something most people grow out of when they develop a sense of self and general confidence, but younger people tend to be impressionable and more easily swayed

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mhm

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Originally Posted by Marie84

I actually agree with Maritsa on this, using external emotional signals to communicate your receptiveness is more so an Fe form of using Fi, unless I'm misinterpreting what you mean by this

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You don't know a single damn thing about Fe type's do you? Look at someone like the Pirate or BD. They do way more than give an occasional coy smile as a hint of their viewpoints on someone.

What you haven't been doing for a long while is do anything resembling like YOUR stated type.
It could also be argued that your relentless crusade to retype me smacks INFpish. Or that your constant attempts at analysis make you seem like an INTj. It's clear that you're disingenuous and that you have an agenda. So, what do I have to do to get you settled with this issue? How can I make you stop acting like a jerk?

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Originally Posted by Marie84

Do you have an example of what you mean by this? (picture or description)

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I was commenting on a few different things.
The not-Fe part specifically has to do with the sense that the smile is not intended to affect my mood per se, but that it's more genuine. It's not raelly so much about Fe, but has to do with the kind of feeling that fe stuff can be fake. So it's mostly about being genuine. And coming from someone who isn't trying to smile at me to get me to feel or think a certain way.

I could say more about it later.


Also, part of what I'm talking about is that, simply, an EII's real smile means a lot. It's something I've come to appreciate, because, I feel like if an EII is smiling, then things really are going good - things that I care about. that's related somewhat to socionics stuff, sure, in terms of valued functions. But also in terms of life, stuff, too. Things are going well, there is nothing bad going on, there is peace and goodness enough for a smile like that to emerge. It's like a flower blooming, to be poetic. And I like it when the flower can fully bloom, it's beautiful to me.

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Originally Posted by Ryu

I was commenting on a few different things.
The not-Fe part specifically has to do with the sense that the smile is not intended to affect my mood per se, but that it's more genuine. It's not raelly so much about Fe, but has to do with the kind of feeling that fe stuff can be fake. So it's mostly about being genuine. And coming from someone who isn't trying to smile at me to get me to feel or think a certain way.

I could say more about it later.


Also, part of what I'm talking about is that, simply, an EII's real smile means a lot. It's something I've come to appreciate, because, I feel like if an EII is smiling, then things really are going good - things that I care about. that's related somewhat to socionics stuff, sure, in terms of valued functions. But also in terms of life, stuff, too. Things are going well, there is nothing bad going on, there is peace and goodness enough for a smile like that to emerge. It's like a flower blooming, to be poetic. And I like it when the flower can fully bloom, it's beautiful to me.

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Exactly. Agreed with every syllable.

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Originally Posted by Smilingeyes

You don't know a single damn thing about Fe type's do you? Look at someone like the Pirate or BD. They do way more than give an occasional coy smile as a hint of their viewpoints on someone.

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First of all, this is totally uncalled for. I asked you an honest inquiry, there's no need to be a douche
Fe is not exclusive to obnoxious displays of emotions, it's the ethics of emotions, not the ethics of annoyance.

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What you haven't been doing for a long while is do anything resembling like YOUR stated type

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more like what you have defined such type to be, much like you did to LSE

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It could also be argued that your relentless crusade to retype me smacks INFpish. Or that your constant attempts at analysis make you seem like an INTj. It's clear that you're disingenuous and that you have an agenda. So, what do I have to do to get you settled with this issue? How can I make you stop acting like a jerk?

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I'm curious, can't you see why Rick, Expat, Niffweed, Mariella, etc, presume you to be a Beta ST? For one, the qualities you claim to like about EII's are their use of Fe "happiness, warmth, smiles, positive emotions" and two you're incredibly hostile and combative with anyone who dares to question you.

And perhaps I'm being defensive, too, but I don't know how else to react to someone who is being incredibly offensive and aggressive over such a trivial matter

btw, are you going to retype Marieilla and Rick too, or does this only apply to self typed EII's who call you out on your fallaciousness?

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Originally Posted by Ryu

I was commenting on a few different things.
The not-Fe part specifically has to do with the sense that the smile is not intended to affect my mood per se, but that it's more genuine. It's not raelly so much about Fe, but has to do with the kind of feeling that fe stuff can be fake. So it's mostly about being genuine. And coming from someone who isn't trying to smile at me to get me to feel or think a certain way.

I could say more about it later.


Also, part of what I'm talking about is that, simply, an EII's real smile means a lot. It's something I've come to appreciate, because, I feel like if an EII is smiling, then things really are going good - things that I care about. that's related somewhat to socionics stuff, sure, in terms of valued functions. But also in terms of life, stuff, too. Things are going well, there is nothing bad going on, there is peace and goodness enough for a smile like that to emerge. It's like a flower blooming, to be poetic. And I like it when the flower can fully bloom, it's beautiful to me.

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Thank you for the explanation
I see a difference between smiling out of sincerity and smiling out of a need to accommodate too, the later comes across as more superficial to me. It's reflective of being in an Fe/Ti environment where there is generally an expectation that if you're not displaying positive emotions you're mean or grumpy, whereas in Te/Fi ones you're judged more so on your actions than external demeanor, which I find a lot less pressuring

My post is of a constructive nature.

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Originally Posted by Smilingeyes

You don't know a single damn thing about Fe type's do you? Look at someone like the Pirate or BD. They do way more than give an occasional coy smile as a hint of their viewpoints on someone.

What you haven't been doing for a long while is do anything resembling like YOUR stated type.
It could also be argued that your relentless crusade to retype me smacks INFpish. Or that your constant attempts at analysis make you seem like an INTj. It's clear that you're disingenuous and that you have an agenda. So, what do I have to do to get you settled with this issue? How can I make you stop acting like a jerk?

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I don't agree about Marie not being EII.
It was kind of a douchey post, yes.

As much as it's not written in profiles of delta rational duals as beta rational duals, outbursts like this can happen (I've been in them). They can be rather damaging for the dual, though.

It's kind of like the LSE gets all pissy for having something about its logic corrected, and this leads to a sort of bad outburst that leads to problems. I think this is more so online, really, because of the way text is. It doesn't happen as much in person in my experience. But I've totally been where SE is in that post, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Marie84

First of all, this is totally uncalled for. I asked you an honest inquiry, there's no need to be a douche
Fe is not exclusive to obnoxious displays of emotions, it's the ethics of emotions, not the ethics of annoyance.

more like what you have defined such type to be, much like you did to LSE

I'm curious, can't you see why Rick, Expat, Niffweed, Mariella, etc, presume you to be a Beta ST? For one, the qualities you claim to like about EII's are their use of Fe "happiness, warmth, smiles, positive emotions" and two you're incredibly hostile and combative with anyone who dares to question you.

And perhaps I'm being defensive, too, but I don't know how else to react to someone who is being incredibly offensive and aggressive over such a trivial matter

btw, are you going to retype Marieilla and Rick too, or does this only apply to self typed EII's who call you out on your fallaciousness?

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EIIs can also be defensive, even spiteful.



Delta duals aren't perfect harmoniously relational magical beings.
I think it might be useful for deltas to take a page from beta and realize that stuff like this happens. I suspect it takes some time for things to be sorted out to the delta ideal of peacefulness - the difference between beta and delta is that betas stir things up for fun, where as deltas want to get to that peaceful spot and stay there. But even for delta, the road isn't necessarily going to be freshly paved and ubersmooth


And LSE's have to realize they can be weird about getting caught up in their own logic/emotions, too. It just happens. I haven't mastered it yet, and it's hard to realize until after something bad has happened. :(

I almost wonder if it's sort of the negative side of Te being blocked with Si; there is an association with logic and personal comfort. So in the sort of weaker or bizarro moments, it is what it is.

I think dual couples over time learn how to let each other have their way on things. And when to not 'fight back' or let things go. Heh but even when they do know stuff like that, people are still human...

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Originally Posted by Marie84

Thank you for the explanation
I see a difference between smiling out of sincerity and smiling out of a need to accommodate too, the later comes across as more superficial to me. It's reflective of being in an Fe/Ti environment where there is generally an expectation that if you're not displaying positive emotions you're mean or grumpy, whereas in Te/Fi ones you're judged more so on your actions than external demeanor, which I find a lot less pressuring

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Mmm. Just to reemphasize, though,

I think the real 'appeal' of an EIIs smile is when it is representative of things actually being "ok" or "good". When it naturally happens, and there's a certain nature about it (yes, EIIs can do fake smiles like everyone else too), but when there is a naturalness, it's like, to me, a very clear indicator that things are 'good', and that's rewarding to me. It helps to let me know that things are going well, or that I'm doing things right.

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Originally Posted by Smilingeyes

I'm not talking cuddly. I don't really want that from INFjs. But a sense of understanding humour about me. I mean... ESTjs can be sort of brutish. I need the INFj to understand us when we are clumsy and unsocial, and to show acceptance of it. Show it's not a big thing. To just sort of laugh a bit at our social faults.

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Yes. This is something I notice in INFj's. Mhhh, my INFj friend, I think he can get me to do anything in terms of behaviour, becoming better person or just w/e it is, because it starts with a sort of unspoken acceptance, an understanding. He knows who I am and what i'm really about. He can sort of quietly smile and quietly laugh about it, sometimes more, it depends.

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Originally Posted by he died with a felafel

WALL-e!
YouTube - Wall?e Clip: Vacuum

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Yes, I agree, differential tracked drives ftw.

Good to see you fellafel.

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Originally Posted by Marie84

I actually agree with Maritsa on this, using external emotional signals to communicate your receptiveness is more so an Fe form of using Fi, unless I'm misinterpreting what you mean by this

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I think you mis-understood, however, and I know from past experience that you don't change your mind on this, everyone smiles, it's a facet of human communication that we all do it at times and we are all certainly capable of it.

There is differences that I think Ryu and Smilingeyes have taken the time to explain to you some more after this post. I don't feel the need or the desire to explain it more here. See my first paragraphy in this post where I did somewhat, I hope it helps.

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Originally Posted by Ryu

I think it might be good to take away from this how much LSE's appreciate an EII's smile - because it's not an Fe-valuing smile.

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Ah yes.

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Originally Posted by Marie84

First of all, this is totally uncalled for. I asked you an honest inquiry, there's no need to be a douche
Fe is not exclusive to obnoxious displays of emotions, it's the ethics of emotions, not the ethics of annoyance.

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Is it really uncalled for? Don't you think you go around baiting people to try to prove some point about their type?

Take me for instance, how you would ask me a question on a thread like, "So i'm talking to a Ti type and I offended him without realising it, Cyclops, how do I speak better to a Ti type" all the while knowing that you've tried to label me on numerous occasions as.. LSI, LII, ILE, IEI... it keeps changing between Beta and Alpha afaik, it's a form of baiting and you know you do it - unapologetically too.

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I'm curious, can't you see why Rick, Expat, Niffweed, Mariella, etc, presume you to be a Beta ST? For one, the qualities you claim to like about EII's are their use of Fe "happiness, warmth, smiles, positive emotions" and two you're incredibly hostile and combative with anyone who dares to question you.

And perhaps I'm being defensive, too, but I don't know how else to react to someone who is being incredibly offensive and aggressive over such a trivial matter

btw, are you going to retype Marieilla and Rick too, or does this only apply to self typed EII's who call you out on your fallaciousness?

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This is just caustic talk. You are at least just as combatative as what you are saying other people are. I've seen you start a fight here, and start a fight on another one of Smilingeyes threads about his type. I have to wonder what exactly you offer as an INFj - you display no respect for the ethos of this or the other thread, or what people are trying to achieve.

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I'm going to touch briefly on this whole aggressiveness thing. In every culture, just about every teenager or young man can get rowdy, get into fights, cause trouble when out with friends. This is a universal thing.

In brief, take two culture examples. In Gaelic Ireland every young man would engage in cattle raiding and skirmishes with local tribes in the form of bands known as fianna.

During the Enlightenment period, the most eminent minds that existed would be at for instance a dinner party, they'd get copiously drunk, and then go outside and cause mayhem in the streets. They'd do things like pull the brass knobs off doors and try to steal the street signs without the night watchman catching them.

Surely EVERYONE of these people, showing some rowdy behaviour in it's various forms, can't be Se, if they are -- or rather if that's what socionics actually says, then really it makes socionics seem pretty dumb.

Some people just need to get a reality grip and pull things into perspective some more, I think, but it is what it is.

I'm going to do a little opening up here, so bear with me.

Ryu, Smilingeyes, thank you for all that you guys have said.

When it comes to outward appearance, I am rather hesistant, perhaps even resistant to alter it just to appear a particular way that is not consistent with my personality. For example, my style is classic and conversative. But what is trendy these days seems to be flashy and revealing and I have been pressured by a few people to dress this way, and I just plainly refuse to do so.

The best thing about ESTjs, in my experience, is that they don't care much about what's trendy either (even ISTps as well) and tend to accept my appearance and physique more readily than others. With them, there is almost an instant connection, a fascination. Sometimes it develops into something more, sometimes it does not but, no matter the outcome, I feel good that they can see past my somewhat modest presentation and see something more substantial.

I think many people will say this about a type, but the eyes of an ESTj, the instances when I have exchanged gazes with them, are some of my most memorable moments of my life.

ESTjs are amazing and it always makes me slightly upset when people only seem to focus on the negatives.

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Originally Posted by Marie84

I'm curious, can't you see why Rick, Expat, Niffweed, Mariella, etc, presume you to be a Beta ST? For one, the qualities you claim to like about EII's are their use of Fe "happiness, warmth, smiles, positive emotions"...

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But do you think that a Beta ST would be satisfied with just happiness, warmth, smiles and postive emotions? Most Beta STs in the forum alone (and in my experience) express a desire for an emotional atmosphere that is more intense (think fire instead of warmth), whether outwardly or inwardly, than that which Smilingeyes has claimed preference to.

Additionally, I feel that what you have quoted above is ultimately what an EII offers to those they love. We are the support, the guide, the nourisher and these are all achieved in a certain way.

Remember that Fe is actually something we are good at; while we can access this function with ease when necessary, we tend to save it for people who matter to us and we express it in moderation. Is not possible that Smilingeyes is just articulating a relationship that has reached this deep state of intimacy between an LSE and an EII?

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Originally Posted by The Greeter

I'm going to do a little opening up here, so bear with me.

Ryu, Smilingeyes, thank you for all that you guys have said.

When it comes to outward appearance, I am rather hesistant, perhaps even resistant to alter it just to appear a particular way that is not consistent with my personality. For example, my style is classic and conversative. But what is trendy these days seems to be flashy and revealing and I have been pressured by a few people to dress this way, and I just plainly refuse to do so.

The best thing about ESTjs, in my experience, is that they don't care much about what's trendy either (even ISTps as well) and tend to accept my appearance and physique more readily than others. With them, there is almost an instant connection, a fascination. Sometimes it develops into something more, sometimes it does not but, no matter the outcome, I feel good that they can see past my somewhat modest presentation and see something more substantial.

I think many people will say this about a type, but the eyes of an ESTj, the instances when I have exchanged gazes with them, are some of my most memorable moments of my life.

ESTjs are amazing and it always makes me slightly upset when people only seem to focus on the negatives.

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I don't want to interupt your flow so please continute, but i'd like to say that this generally ties in with the types I know.

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Delta's a question: Do you think that non Si types care more about their appearance than Si types. Let me explain: I know a few Si dominants who are more content wearing clothes that are designed for comfort over looks.

I have noticed a lot of 'non' Si types, Betas for instance, who find it more important to wear what the latest fashion is etc. I think that looking good is different from feeling comfortable - many clothes that are asthetically pleasing may not actually be comfortable. Non Si types will not pay attention to the comfort, but more to the asthetic.

I think typically Deltas, Alphas too, strive for a balance between asthetic and comfort, usually leaning towards comfort.

Anyway, i'm sure there's individual cases, just a general observation.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

I think typically Deltas, Alphas too, strive for a balance between asthetic and comfort, usually leaning towards comfort.

Anyway, i'm sure there's individual cases, just a general observation.

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I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally lean rather heavily on the comfort side of things and always have. Heck, if yoga pants and tank tops were socially acceptable in all environments, I might never wear anything else. :)

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

I used to do fencing (wow even decided off my own back). It was fun to lightsabre.

Hey, sad maybe, but I keep meaning to go to one of these historical battle re-enactments I read about. Messing about and running at folk, could be fun.

Beers afterwards I hope, even if i 'die'.

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It is indeed fun!

And, not sad at all I think. I used to go to the WWII events with my ex, though I was a radio girl and not a soldier (obviously not terribly historically accurate if a woman is running around with a gun on the field).

And of course there's beer, what kinda pansy event do you think this is?? :P

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Originally Posted by The Greeter

But do you think that a Beta ST would be satisfied with just happiness, warmth, smiles and postive emotions? Most Beta STs in the forum alone (and in my experience) express a desire for an emotional atmosphere that is more intense (think fire instead of warmth), whether outwardly or inwardly, than that which Smilingeyes has claimed preference to.

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While I think that the intense/dramatic uses of Fe may appeal to some Betas I don't think it's universal, especially not to more mature/conservative/moral Beta's who may not resonate with that sort of behavior.
My father, for instance, is an LSI and I'm quite sure he wouldn't fit in with some of the more rowdy and vulgar Betas here.

I think the Socionics Work Shop description of how Fe seeking applies to LSI's is a bit more fitting than the wiki, which focuses more on the livid aspects of the IE

And exert: LSI - WSWiki
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"Being entrenched in logical, systematic thinking processes, LSIs need others to create an emotionally inclusive atmosphere where they know they are accepted and liked. Left to themselves, they have almost no way of establishing an emotional connection with others other than through formal methods that often fail to work. LSIs can organize a situation where emotional bonding might occur, but they are almost unable to create the bonding themselves; they need others to fill the situation with feeling, laughter, and fun.

Since they devote themselves so completely to whatever they do, LSIs tend to build up a lot of emotional tension, which can only be released when somebody gives them a vivid reminder that there is more to life than their responsibilities."
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Additionally, I feel that what you have quoted above is ultimately what an EII offers to those they love. We are the support, the guide, the nourisher and these are all achieved in a certain way.

Remember that Fe is actually something we are good at; while we can access this function with ease when necessary, we tend to save it for people who matter to us and we express it in moderation.

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Yah, I may have been vague in my response. For the record, I wasn't trying to suggest that EII's don't possess the traits that I stated are more Fe, I think this is something that all ethical types are good at providing towards their logical duals.
But I do see prioritizing these traits as more Fe seeking than Fi

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Is not possible that Smilingeyes is just articulating a relationship that has reached this deep state of intimacy between an LSE and an EII?

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Of course, which is why I originally asked him about this in my reply to him about how I see what he said as more related to Fe, but that I may have misinterpreted what he meant, in which he responded with a tirade

It's very difficult to understand where someone is coming from if they go into defense mode whenever you attempt to reach that understanding

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

I don't want to interupt your flow so please continute, but i'd like to say that this generally ties in with the types I know.

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Delta's a question: Do you think that non Si types care more about their appearance than Si types. Let me explain: I know a few Si dominants who are more content wearing clothes that are designed for comfort over looks.

I have noticed a lot of 'non' Si types, Betas for instance, who find it more important to wear what the latest fashion is etc. I think that looking good is different from feeling comfortable - many clothes that are asthetically pleasing may not actually be comfortable. Non Si types will not pay attention to the comfort, but more to the asthetic.

I think typically Deltas, Alphas too, strive for a balance between asthetic and comfort, usually leaning towards comfort.

Anyway, i'm sure there's individual cases, just a general observation.

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I think that generally speaking, this is spot on.

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Originally Posted by Marie84

First of all, this is totally uncalled for. I asked you an honest inquiry, there's no need to be a douche
Fe is not exclusive to obnoxious displays of emotions, it's the ethics of emotions, not the ethics of annoyance.



more like what you have defined such type to be, much like you did to LSE



I'm curious, can't you see why Rick, Expat, Niffweed, Mariella, etc, presume you to be a Beta ST? For one, the qualities you claim to like about EII's are their use of Fe "happiness, warmth, smiles, positive emotions" and two you're incredibly hostile and combative with anyone who dares to question you.

And perhaps I'm being defensive, too, but I don't know how else to react to someone who is being incredibly offensive and aggressive over such a trivial matter

btw, are you going to retype Marieilla and Rick too, or does this only apply to self typed EII's who call you out on your fallaciousness?

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What cyclops says to you later on in this thread is spot on. If you're INFj, you're the only INFj I've ever witnessed stalking people, purposefully trying to create conflict, purposefully lying and playing social propaganda games. To make clear to Ryu and others, I'm not saying that you're not INFj, or that Rick isn't ENFp or that Expat isn't Ej-Te. I've never intentionally played that card on the board (though by accident I have mistyped people I didn't like). But you are displaying unique, disturbing, malicious and socially unhealthy qualities that I have heretofore yet to witness in an INFj. So this is a very revealing experience.

Up until this thread I've displayed considerable patience with you. I've chosen to count you as just a noobie who doesn't know better and doesn't just understand socionics and is simply echoing the ideas of others who have no compunction of misleading people for propagandistic and social reasons, but in this thread you chose to butt in and pile on your bullshit in a situation that was already very delicate and stressful to both me and some other people. That is completely immoral and totally unacceptable. And the very idea that I have to give any kind of a moral talkover to an INFj is so strange to me that simply that idea really makes me wonder about your type, though I'm still suspending disbelief for the while.

It appears that you are not interested in truth or morals but simply conflict, so I see no reason to continue this discussion.

Bottom line is you are in serious need of a) moral advice b) more learning on socionics c) possibly psychiatric counseling. Get help and stop lying. I'm also including you in my ignore list because I have no need for your conflict baiting and frankly there are people on that list for much more minor reasons.

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Originally Posted by Ryu

I don't agree about Marie not being EII.
It was kind of a douchey post, yes.

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I'm not saying he/she? isn't INFj. I don't know her type.
And while the post was certainly strongly worded in context I think it was quite an understatement. Basically, she's a bully and someone needed to call her out on it. But as far as I care, it's done now. I'm through.

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Originally Posted by Smilingeyes

What cyclops says to you later on in this thread is spot on. If you're INFj, you're the only INFj I've ever witnessed stalking people, purposefully trying to create conflict, purposefully lying and playing social propaganda games. To make clear to Ryu and others, I'm not saying that you're not INFj, or that Rick isn't ENFp or that Expat isn't Ej-Te. I've never intentionally played that card on the board (though by accident I have mistyped people I didn't like). But you are displaying unique, disturbing, malicious and socially unhealthy qualities that I have heretofore yet to witness in an INFj. So this is a very revealing experience.

Up until this thread I've displayed considerable patience with you. I've chosen to count you as just a noobie who doesn't know better and doesn't just understand socionics and is simply echoing the ideas of others who have no compunction of misleading people for propagandistic and social reasons, but in this thread you chose to butt in and pile on your bullshit in a situation that was already very delicate and stressful to both me and some other people. That is completely immoral and totally unacceptable. And the very idea that I have to give any kind of a moral talkover to an INFj is so strange to me that simply that idea really makes me wonder about your type, though I'm still suspending disbelief for the while.

It appears that you are not interested in truth or morals but simply conflict, so I see no reason to continue this discussion.

Bottom line is you are in serious need of a) moral advice b) more learning on socionics c) possibly psychiatric counseling. Get help and stop lying. I'm also including you in my ignore list because I have no need for your conflict baiting and frankly there are people on that list for much more minor reasons.

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What the fuck, dude? She's stalking you as much as you're stalking her, and she's trying to purposefully create conflict as much as you're purposefully trying to be an unbearable asshole; etc. So cut the crap, it doesn't hold water. And most importantly, stop assuming you know other people's motives, because it's freaking annoying, or self-degrading to say the least. You talk about morals, and demonstrate your lack of them at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Parkster

What the fuck, dude? She's stalking you as much as you're stalking her, and she's trying to purposefully create conflict as much as you're purposefully trying to be an unbearable asshole; etc. So cut the crap, it doesn't hold water. And most importantly, stop assuming you know other people's motives, because it's freaking annoying, or self-degrading at the least.

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That's not at all true. I haven't inserted myself into a single conversation of hers. She's stalked me around the board talking BS. Also, while I'm extrovert and obviously about as not adept at social skills as a drunken chipmunk, she claims to be Fi-dominant. What gives? Also, my motivation when entering into this thread was to calm the waters and try to help maritsa find some kind of harmony both with Ryu and the forum public in general. I don't need that work to be undone by some stalker.

Also while I do accept that I escalated the conflict purposefully, I most certainly wasn't the instigator. (Sorry, final edit: And the reason for the escalation was the desire to finally confront her about her bullying and baiting so as to get it over with. Just make it stop.)

I am noticing though that this is drawing more people in to the argument which was counter to the original purpose so I'm withdrawing from the thread.

(BTW, you too are not at your best in this post)

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Originally Posted by Smilingeyes

(BTW, you too are not at your best in this post)

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Gee, thanks for the moral counseling.

Yeah. I don't think she deserves this kind of treatment. btw, marie, i like you.

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Originally Posted by Marie84

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"Being entrenched in logical, systematic thinking processes, LSIs need others to create an emotionally inclusive atmosphere where they know they are accepted and liked. Left to themselves, they have almost no way of establishing an emotional connection with others other than through formal methods that often fail to work. LSIs can organize a situation where emotional bonding might occur, but they are almost unable to create the bonding themselves; they need others to fill the situation with feeling, laughter, and fun.

Since they devote themselves so completely to whatever they do, LSIs tend to build up a lot of emotional tension, which can only be released when somebody gives them a vivid reminder that there is more to life than their responsibilities."
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Emotional bonds between human beings are nothing but relationships, warm emotional relationships are considered positive and cold emotional relationships are considered negative. So to be a person who fosters and develops positive relationships you have give off warm emotions.

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Originally Posted by Smilingeyes

You don't know a single damn thing about Fe type's do you? Look at someone like the Pirate or BD. They do way more than give an occasional coy smile as a hint of their viewpoints on someone.

What you haven't been doing for a long while is do anything resembling like YOUR stated type.
It could also be argued that your relentless crusade to retype me smacks INFpish. Or that your constant attempts at analysis make you seem like an INTj. It's clear that you're disingenuous and that you have an agenda. So, what do I have to do to get you settled with this issue? How can I make you stop acting like a jerk?

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I understand what you mean by a simple, coy smile, I think when I see a dual, I do that, but I don't get the feedback and I know why; that's not because they are not receptive to me, but it's because they are not interested in building something serious just yet. They probably know very well that I may not be the kind of girl that they are looking for at the moment. So yes, in my reserved and shy, non flirtatious way, I do give out those blushing and lips together, coy smile. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Smilingeyes

What cyclops says to you later on in this thread is spot on. If you're INFj, you're the only INFj I've ever witnessed stalking people, purposefully trying to create conflict, purposefully lying and playing social propaganda games. To make clear to Ryu and others, I'm not saying that you're not INFj, or that Rick isn't ENFp or that Expat isn't Ej-Te. I've never intentionally played that card on the board (though by accident I have mistyped people I didn't like). But you are displaying unique, disturbing, malicious and socially unhealthy qualities that I have heretofore yet to witness in an INFj. So this is a very revealing experience.

Up until this thread I've displayed considerable patience with you. I've chosen to count you as just a noobie who doesn't know better and doesn't just understand socionics and is simply echoing the ideas of others who have no compunction of misleading people for propagandistic and social reasons, but in this thread you chose to butt in and pile on your bullshit in a situation that was already very delicate and stressful to both me and some other people. That is completely immoral and totally unacceptable. And the very idea that I have to give any kind of a moral talkover to an INFj is so strange to me that simply that idea really makes me wonder about your type, though I'm still suspending disbelief for the while.

It appears that you are not interested in truth or morals but simply conflict, so I see no reason to continue this discussion.

Bottom line is you are in serious need of a) moral advice b) more learning on socionics c) possibly psychiatric counseling. Get help and stop lying. I'm also including you in my ignore list because I have no need for your conflict baiting and frankly there are people on that list for much more minor reasons.

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It's healthy to observe a person's behavior in typing them and seeing the changes that result in them after you challenge them to certain things or/and change your approach towards them; then, you get a feel for exactly the type they are.

Ignor lists?...ugh, try to calm down dear, thank you.

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Originally Posted by Ryu

I almost wonder if it's sort of the negative side of Te being blocked with Si; there is an association with logic and personal comfort. So in the sort of weaker or bizarro moments, it is what it is.

I think dual couples over time learn how to let each other have their way on things. And when to not 'fight back' or let things go. Heh but even when they do know stuff like that, people are still human...

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Yes. :)

Maritsa relentlessly persues people (most notably Minde) and has crusades to retype people and has frequent attempts at analysis. If those things mean Marie cant' be EII, then they'd also have to mean Maritsa can't be EII.

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Originally Posted by Marie84

First of all, this is totally uncalled for. I asked you an honest inquiry, there's no need to be a douche
Fe is not exclusive to obnoxious displays of emotions, it's the ethics of emotions, not the ethics of annoyance.



more like what you have defined such type to be, much like you did to LSE



I'm curious, can't you see why Rick, Expat, Niffweed, Mariella, etc, presume you to be a Beta ST? For one, the qualities you claim to like about EII's are their use of Fe "happiness, warmth, smiles, positive emotions" and two you're incredibly hostile and combative with anyone who dares to question you.

And perhaps I'm being defensive, too, but I don't know how else to react to someone who is being incredibly offensive and aggressive over such a trivial matter

btw, are you going to retype Marieilla and Rick too, or does this only apply to self typed EII's who call you out on your fallaciousness?

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He is ESTj Marie. Period. Rick can't type J/P...he does not understand the one key thing behind this dichotomy, as he calls it. IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT THING. The above is not exclusive to ESTp's; ESTj's are just as stern in their principles and especially about their approach.

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Originally Posted by Marie84

Thank you for the explanation
I see a difference between smiling out of sincerity and smiling out of a need to accommodate too, the later comes across as more superficial to me. It's reflective of being in an Fe/Ti environment where there is generally an expectation that if you're not displaying positive emotions you're mean or grumpy, whereas in Te/Fi ones you're judged more so on your actions than external demeanor, which I find a lot less pressuring

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If you challenge Smilingeyes type one more time/ever, I will show your true type, but for the sake of respect here, I will hold myself back.

I dont' know if I really "presume" him to be Beta ST. Sometimes reading his stuff, I think "Ti Ti Ti Ti !!" And sometimes, not here in this thread so much, "Se Se SE!" too. Anyway, I do go a bit back and forth on it though.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

He's very analytical that's not Ti. He can be aggressive, but that's not Se.

Values are or should be formost in typing quadra; his values don't fit into Beta.

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Where did I say "analytical" or "aggressive" were what I was basing it on?

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

Like I wrote before, he's Delta and that's it.

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My god would you stop it?! You are not the authority. Just stop presenting yourself that way. It's really beyond annoying.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

What do you feel that is Ti? and What are you feeling about him that is Se, in your mind?

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I am not interested in typing him here. And I am not interested in discussing it with you as you aren't open minded enough to have a real discussion with anyway.

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Originally Posted by Mariella

My god would you stop it?! You are not the authority. Just stop presenting yourself that way. It's really beyond annoying.

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I'm annoyed by her persistance towards something she hasn't got a clue about.

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Originally Posted by Mariella

I am not interested in typing him here. And I am not interested in discussing it with you as you aren't open minded enough to have a real discussion with anyway.

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When a person asks you a question that means that they are open minded about it.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

When a person asks you a question that means that they are open minded about it.

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Oh please. It could mean a lot of things, and based on your past behavior I think it's safe to say you are not open minded. Not getting into it with you, not worth the time or aggragation, and like I said I'm back and forth on it anyway. His type is not something I care about that much.

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Originally Posted by Mariella

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Oh please. It could mean a lot of things, and based on your past behavior I think it's safe to say you are not open minded. Not getting into it with you, not worth the time or aggragation, and like I said I'm back and forth on it anyway. His type is not something I care about that much.

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Honey, what does it take for you to convince your husband that he needs a new lawnmoer? To what level of necessity or proof? I want to know the level so that I can aim for it first and then you and I won't face these issues where you're constantly opening possibilities upon possibilities, that way we can be more productive in our communication with one another.

I really love you as a person, I feel dear to you, so I don't want to upset you.

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Originally Posted by Marie84

While I think that the intense/dramatic uses of Fe may appeal to some Betas I don't think it's universal, especially not to more mature/conservative/moral Beta's who may not resonate with that sort of behavior.
My father, for instance, is an LSI and I'm quite sure he wouldn't fit in with some of the more rowdy and vulgar Betas here.

I think the Socionics Work Shop description of how Fe seeking applies to LSI's is a bit more fitting than the wiki, which focuses more on the livid aspects of the IE

And exert: LSI - WSWiki
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"Being entrenched in logical, systematic thinking processes, LSIs need others to create an emotionally inclusive atmosphere where they know they are accepted and liked. Left to themselves, they have almost no way of establishing an emotional connection with others other than through formal methods that often fail to work. LSIs can organize a situation where emotional bonding might occur, but they are almost unable to create the bonding themselves; they need others to fill the situation with feeling, laughter, and fun.

Since they devote themselves so completely to whatever they do, LSIs tend to build up a lot of emotional tension, which can only be released when somebody gives them a vivid reminder that there is more to life than their responsibilities."
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Yah, I may have been vague in my response. For the record, I wasn't trying to suggest that EII's don't possess the traits that I stated are more Fe, I think this is something that all ethical types are good at providing towards their logical duals.
But I do see prioritizing these traits as more Fe seeking than Fi

Of course, which is why I originally asked him about this in my reply to him about how I see what he said as more related to Fe, but that I may have misinterpreted what he meant, in which he responded with a tirade

It's very difficult to understand where someone is coming from if they go into defense mode whenever you attempt to reach that understanding

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Like I wrote before, he's Delta (ESTj) and that's it.

Whoaa... wth happened in this thread? :confused:

There seems to be a lot of history going on that I know nothing about.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

Honey, what does it take for you to convince your husband that he needs a new lawnmoer? To what level of necessity or proof? I want to know the level so that I can aim for it first and then you and I won't face these issues where you're constantly opening possibilities upon possibilities, that way we can be more productive in our communication with one another.

I really love you as a person, I feel dear to you, so I don't want to upset you.

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There is no way you can prove anything to me as I don't consider you to be a reliable source. And that last sentence is emotional manipulation and I'm not buying it.

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Originally Posted by Mariella

There is no way you can prove anything to me as I don't consider you to be a reliable source. And that last sentence is emotional manipulation and I'm not buying it.

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Alright, then from now on let's try this, take a typing system you rely on and based on that I will present information of a person's type in my debate, that should get you to trust me and my "method" a little more.

I don't do emotional manipulation with people i feel for; so think of it however you like; I do feel particularly protective of their emotions when I feel close for someone.

This is why I don't say things to aggrivate you and frustrate you.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

Alright, then from now on let's try this, take a typing system you rely on and based on that I will present information of a person's type in my debate, that should get you to trust me and my "method" a little more.

I don't do emotional manipulation with people i feel for; so think of it however you like; I do feel particularly protective of their emotions when I feel close for someone.

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No typing system is going to prove anything to me as I don't value Ti. That seems to be a difference between us.

And yes you thrive on emotional manipulation. That isn't the first I've seen.

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Originally Posted by Mariella

No typing system is going to prove anything to me as I don't value Ti. That seems to be a difference between us.

And yes you thrive on emotional manipulation. That isn't the first I've seen.

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I thrive on positive emotions, warm atmosphere not Se. Alright, no system will work, so let me think of other possibilities.

What has worked before? it may be something with Si, I presume. I will have to ask ISTp's to help me brainstorm for ideas with this.

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Originally Posted by The Greeter

I'm going to do a little opening up here, so bear with me.

Ryu, Smilingeyes, thank you for all that you guys have said.

When it comes to outward appearance, I am rather hesistant, perhaps even resistant to alter it just to appear a particular way that is not consistent with my personality. For example, my style is classic and conversative. But what is trendy these days seems to be flashy and revealing and I have been pressured by a few people to dress this way, and I just plainly refuse to do so.

The best thing about ESTjs, in my experience, is that they don't care much about what's trendy either (even ISTps as well) and tend to accept my appearance and physique more readily than others. With them, there is almost an instant connection, a fascination. Sometimes it develops into something more, sometimes it does not but, no matter the outcome, I feel good that they can see past my somewhat modest presentation and see something more substantial.

I think many people will say this about a type, but the eyes of an ESTj, the instances when I have exchanged gazes with them, are some of my most memorable moments of my life.

ESTjs are amazing and it always makes me slightly upset when people only seem to focus on the negatives.

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I agree with everything you wrote above and especially the last part.