Ne/Si – not in touch with the real world?

This is a quote from socionics.us about Ne as a leading function: "Someone with :Ne: as their leading function is very dependent on his/her feelings of interest and disinterest. Interest and boredom seem to be the driving forces in such a person's life — more so than for any other types. Other types also find things 'interesting' and 'boring,' however, they are able to derive satisfaction and enjoyment from things that aren't necessarily interesting and novel, as opposed to types. Just as :Si: types can't make themselves do things that cause internal discomfort or are physically unpleasant, :Ne: types can't make themselves do things that do not engage them mentally (do not give them anything interesting to think about)."

Is this really the case?

Si dominants are people who will never work hard for something unless it has a pleasant reward? Ne dominants are people who can't hold down a job that doesn't fascinate them, even if they have to? I find that to be really extreme, unless you're 16 years old.

In that case I'm not sure I even value Ne\Si because even though I have a tendency to neglect stuff that aren't interesting\pleasant, I don't see it as a positive thing.. How does someone ever achieve anything worthwhile/get to the point where they can do whatever they please unless they go through unpleasant things that aren't delightful or fascinating? How does someone achieve anything in real life unless they're willing to do things that aren't exactly pleasant? Unless you're born rich or undeniably gifted, you have to work hard..

this made me LOL. since it is so true! i actually remember thinking in my 20's that i absolutely had to come up with something interesting to do for a living otherwise i would get fired, since i'd be too bored to do the work. crazy huh. it's how i got into social work, which is always really fascinating. but once you know an area of social work inside and out, you have to move on, because you know it too well and you get bored. so yeah, life is this endless boredom avoidance thing.

i work with an SLI right now and believe it or not Ne and Si kind of work together to get things done. i'm always like, hey what do you think about this...(out of the box idea) and he'll pour cold water all over most of it except for one part that's workable and i'll go off on my merry way working the idea to maximum. then he'll check in w me and i'll be like, i need this thing right away, and he goes and gets it. so we end up with a cool product. and so it goes, idea-cold water-specific thing-work work work-one more thing to make it perfect-DONE!!

next.

but Si isn't really lazy, it only wants to do stuff that's worth the energy. and Ne always comes up with something that's worth it. so, to make a long story short, you get stuff done! :-) you are in touch with the real world, together you get there.

i've seen IEI's kind of seem to vegetate also. but they don't they only do stuff that's worth their energy and they only do what has to be done and at the time where the least amount of energy has to be expended. that's why ESE's seem to IEI's to be spinning their wheels....all that energy spent and for what.

i've seen IEE's get bored too. they, too have to have something interesting to do, and it has to fit in with their people values or they can't do it.

Even if it was true, holding down jobs is an overrated ability.

Unless your partner requires you to earn 128k a year before marriage. LOL

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Originally Posted by Cheesy

Si dominants are people who will never work hard for something unless it has a pleasant reward? Ne dominants are people who can't hold down a job that doesn't fascinate them, even if they have to? I find that to be really extreme, unless you're 16 years old.

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I think "can't" is an extreme word. Most things in Socionics are stated in a way that's black and white, but of course people are able to adjust to the realities of life.

Socionics.us is Rick's site and it's really good. It's interesting that this quote is from there though. I think it's probably basically accurate about leading-Ne types, but the question is whether it is exclusively true about those types.

There is a bias in Socionics that says that Ne/Si quadra types do what they're interested in and Ni/Se quadra types do what they don't like so as to achieve some sort of external "result." I'm not sure that's really true. It's probably more true that people see other people doing things that they themselves think is really boring, so they assume that the other people are also bored but just don't mind being bored because of some sort of "materialism."

I think any type will tend to put off those things that don't fit well with their base function, especially if they're "very into" their base function. Ti types will avoid situations where there's no role for logic or systems, Fe types will avoid situations where there is no "human" dimension...and so forth.

I've seen a lot of leading Ne types succeed in the job world, and in such cases they acquire whatever discipline or attention to detail they need to be successful.

But no matter what type you are, if you choose to emphasize your base function above all else and shut out the rest of reality, you're going to have problems unless you're independently wealthy.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan

But no matter what type you are, if you choose to emphasize your base function above all else and shut out the rest of reality, you're going to have problems unless you're independently wealthy.

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and I suspect that emphasizing your base function is actually how most entrepreneurs/business people become independently wealthy. There are some things you can't fake.

Eh. Well, you have to do what you have to do. But I don't have to like it. I don't work outside the home but I do a lot of laundry and vacuuming and stuff like that. It's boring but someone has to do it or we'd get bugs or something and I can't handle that.

I like to listen to music while I do cleaning so I don't get as bored.

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Originally Posted by FDG

Even if it was true, holding down jobs is an overrated ability.

Unless your partner requires you to earn 128k a year before marriage. LOL

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lol

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Originally Posted by Jonathan

I think "can't" is an extreme word. Most things in Socionics are stated in a way that's black and white, but of course people are able to adjust to the realities of life.

Socionics.us is Rick's site and it's really good. It's interesting that this quote is from there though. I think it's probably basically accurate about leading-Ne types, but the question is whether it is exclusively true about those types.

There is a bias in Socionics that says that Ne/Si quadra types do what they're interested in and Ni/Se quadra types do what they don't like so as to achieve some sort of external "result." I'm not sure that's really true. It's probably more true that people see other people doing things that they themselves think is really boring, so they assume that the other people are also bored but just don't mind being bored because of some sort of "materialism."

I think any type will tend to put off those things that don't fit well with their base function, especially if they're "very into" their base function. Ti types will avoid situations where there's no role for logic or systems, Fe types will avoid situations where there is no "human" dimension...and so forth.

I've seen a lot of leading Ne types succeed in the job world, and in such cases they acquire whatever discipline or attention to detail they need to be successful.

But no matter what type you are, if you choose to emphasize your base function above all else and shut out the rest of reality, you're going to have problems unless you're independently wealthy.

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I agree with you and that's exactly why I was annoyed with that particular quote, it reduced Ne\Si into something really juvenile.. What about goals? When people have a goal they need to go through things to achieve it, there won't always be a short cut and life is about learning from and overcoming difficulties.. What are your achievements really worth if they didn't require much effort? Sure it may be fun but how much do we emphasize on growth and development rather than an easy entertaining life thanks to some sort of given talent or luck? I'm all about developing your strengths but what about dealing with challenges? Developing certain traits in yourself or overcoming difficulties, for me that's the true measure of a person's greatness. Not how lucky they were born but what they do in life to get somewhere even though it doesn't come easy.

Basically either I'm not Ne/Si or socionics proved to have little to do with reality..

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Removed at User Request

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Originally Posted by Pinocchio

But what the heck do you mean by "reality"? I have the feeling that I see the reality clearer than you do, although I don't care about "goals". What would happen to me because I change jobs and interests, will I die?

There are no goals in this life, but people invent them. I'm seeing people you describe too limited (especially because they adopt mainstream values), they don't realize there can be a more interested life to be lived if they're not so material-oriented.

Btw, your last post is full of typical Ni-valuer remarks. I don't think you value Ne.

Memento mori.

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good points

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Originally Posted by Pinocchio

But what the heck do you mean by "reality"? I have the feeling that I see the reality clearer than you do, although I don't care about "goals". What would happen to me because I change jobs and interests, will I die?

There are no goals in this life, but people invent them. I'm seeing people you describe too limited (especially because they adopt mainstream values), they don't realize there can be a more interested life to be lived if they're not so material-oriented.

Btw, your last post is full of typical Ni-valuer remarks. I don't think you value Ne.

Memento mori.

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What do you mean by not having any goals? I respect that people have a different direction or even no direction at all, I'm not even saying that I have one or that it has anything to do with materialism.

I think that a goal is something personal and each can deicide what he wants his life to be like. I'm not striving to find the mainstream road, I'm striving to overcome some of my weak points and develop myself because the place I want to be in 15 years requires some growth on my part. That's the essence my goal, how does that have anything to do with the mainstream? Because I said the words college and job? Well, the means in which one chooses to lead their lives is completely up to them and it has nothing to do with mainstream values. I may like the concept of college and a career but that's not the actual achievement. Even if I don't have a particular career or make a certain amount of money I would've achieved my goal if I did something I thought I couldn't do or grew as a person.

What you're basically saying is that Ne/Si individuals can't have goals, especially if they want a career because that's too mainstream and Se/Ni.

Removed at User Request

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Originally Posted by Pinocchio

Sorry, I did not want to judge you, but you started it. I'm exactly how it's written about ILEs, although, saying we're not in touch with reality I find a bit arrogant.

I also oppose the label of "Don Quixote" - I think the comparison is way exaggerated. Take this example: people keep asking me why I encrypted my partitions. "Do you think someone will ever look through your data?". This rhetorical question pisses me off because, first of all that's not their problem, second - if I can, why not do it? A rhetorical question in return is "Why do you lock your door when you get out? Do you think someone will get into your house?"
It's basically the same shit, just people have the false impression some things are more important than others.

Anyway, the way you put the problem looks very depressing in my (so I don't say that it is) perspective.
This moment I'm trying to remember if I heard other than Betas and Gammas saying "developing myself". For those quadras it's already a rule in my view. I also wrote about this rule:

Btw, I think this article might help you.

Being a Decisive type is probably the same reason why the word "mainstream" resonated for so long in your hear. It's only a label, but with a pejorative connotation in the mainstream these days. The same is "materialistic", so your reaction is not surprising.
I don't know what's bad about it, it simply happen that what I usually like is not mainstream, but I know people who do like and we're getting very well along.

I'm not saying that Ne/Si (Judicious) can't focus on goals, but they are a bit different than the Ni/Se (Decisive) ones. Usually their ambitions differ in that Judicious people want something specific, but Decisive something big. This was actually the meaning of the phrases on Wikisocion on this dichotomy, which was badly translated and some poor users interpreted it totally different.
Jud want to write books - Dec want to be writers, Jud want to play guitar - Dec want to be guitarists, Jud wants to practice surgery - Dec wants to become a surgeon, and so on... It's the same thing, but viewed from different perspectives.

This is the reason why Judicious people are not so strictly attached to their qualification.
This is also the same reason why Decisive aspects of reality are mainstream: because they are labeled and this information can circulate very quickly. For example it's much easier to tell the name of the brand to someone than to enumerate all its products. We all use both approaches, depending on needs, but have different focus.

I'm not too old, but from my experience I can tell you that you can't have both. This "both" means a lot of things, some of them we can choose, others are inborn, but antitheses in any case.
I met people who all their youth tried to be more mature, "grown-up". They were surprised to be rejected in groups of slackers, but really, they were ridiculously unfit - maybe here I'm a bit biased towards one side :D.

I'm curious what do you think about this, if you consider the possibility to be a Ni/Se valuer.

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I agree with the trying to be mature part.. Maturity is being comfortable with who you are and making the best of yourself..

I can't see myself as Se/Ni but I can see that what I'm saying may be interpreted as Se/Ni valuing.. I can't easily find myself fitting into any category, and I find them too simplistic to cover all grounds of my personality/tendencies..

As for the description of Judicious/Decisive, what I've learnt in life is that ""I have to behave naturally, I am who I am and I can't change it " type of thinking can sometimes limit you yet I feel more comfortable with this sentiment than I would be with the other one. I would like to implicate them both, be able to be who I want to be (and if I want to change something about me that's holding me back I'd like to do that) but I also want to discover what I do best and develop that.

What I meant with the title is that the quote from socionics.us portrayed an image of people who weren't in touch with life's circumstances, people can't always do interesting and pleasing things unless they're lucky enough to have the means to sustain themselves without paving their way like most people.. I find it hard to believe that Ne/Si people can't adapt themselves to do what it takes if they have a certain goal or worse that they never try to achieve something (whatever it may be) that's challenging to them and that may require dealing with less than thrilling parts of life. If you don't challenge yourself your development stays in certain limited boundaries. I think people are what they are but that doesn't mean they can't step out of their own limits.

Removed at User Request

It doesn't really matter what type I am and I never really know my type anyway.
I thank those who commented so far but I don't feel like I've gotten to the bottom of this issue, so feel free to post your thoughts..

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Originally Posted by Blaze

i've seen IEI's kind of seem to vegetate also. but they don't they only do stuff that's worth their energy and they only do what has to be done and at the time where the least amount of energy has to be expended. that's why ESE's seem to IEI's to be spinning their wheels....all that energy spent and for what.

i've seen IEE's get bored too. they, too have to have something interesting to do, and it has to fit in with their people values or they can't do it.

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Yes, exactly!!

I find it interesting that you chose the title "not in touch with the real world" for this thread. You judge whether someone is in touch with the real world by this?

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Originally Posted by SoapOfSapphire

What you're asking is similar to questions I had while I was trying to decide my type. I even started this thread to try and get some input from Ne types [IEEs, specifically]. It didn't get extremely far, but there are some responses there that were helpful to me and that you may find interesting. EDIT: I just realized you've not only seen that thread, but posted in it. Ah well....

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:)

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Originally Posted by Slacker Mom

I find it interesting that you chose the title "not in touch with the real world" for this thread. You judge whether someone is in touch with the real world by this?

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Well, I've explained that to the best of my abilities in the rest of my posts so I'll quote myself: "What I meant with the title is that the quote from socionics.us portrayed an image of people who weren't in touch with life's circumstances, people can't always do interesting and pleasing things unless they're lucky enough to have the means to sustain themselves without paving their way like most people.. I find it hard to believe that Ne/Si people can't adapt themselves to do what it takes if they have a certain goal or worse that they never try to achieve something (whatever it may be) that's challenging to them and that may require dealing with less than thrilling parts of life"

If it wasn't clear, the intention of this thread was to try to understand the quote and it's totality as if Ne/Si people are slaves to their comfort and curiosity, it seemed to me like an insult to Ne\Si. That's my interpretation of the quote and I wanted to see if any Ne/Si people might feel the same.

I understand what you were going for, I just find your choice of words interesting. Reading the title, I assumed the thread was going to be about people who did things without thinking about what the consequences might be, not people who aren't willing to work hard. What you call "the real world" might be type related. As in, it displays your values, which seem to be more Se/Ni to me based on this.

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Originally Posted by Cheesy

:)




Well, I've explained that to the best of my abilities in the rest of my posts so I'll quote myself: "What I meant with the title is that the quote from socionics.us portrayed an image of people who weren't in touch with life's circumstances, people can't always do interesting and pleasing things unless they're lucky enough to have the means to sustain themselves without paving their way like most people.. I find it hard to believe that Ne/Si people can't adapt themselves to do what it takes if they have a certain goal or worse that they never try to achieve something (whatever it may be) that's challenging to them and that may require dealing with less than thrilling parts of life"

If it wasn't clear, the intention of this thread was to try to understand the quote and it's totality as if Ne/Si people are slaves to their comfort and curiosity, it seemed to me like an insult to Ne\Si. That's my interpretation of the quote and I wanted to see if any Ne/Si people might feel the same.

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funny...this is exactly what i thought you meant all along. Ne leading is portrayed as seeming to be unconnected to reality. and the fact is we do totally get bored with stuff that other people don't get bored with.

you know though....Ne always finds a way. :D

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Originally Posted by Blaze

you know though....Ne always finds a way. :D

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This one.

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Originally Posted by Slacker Mom

I understand what you were going for, I just find your choice of words interesting. Reading the title, I assumed the thread was going to be about people who did things without thinking about what the consequences might be, not people who aren't willing to work hard. What you call "the real world" might be type related. As in, it displays your values, which seem to be more Se/Ni to me based on this.

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Nah, probably some kind of S related thing.

I doubt a LSE or ESE would agree that you could get much from no work, commitment or effort.

Edit: Or anyone who wants to be good at anything.

@cheesy
I understand what you're trying to say, and from my perspective I think the quote is true and I agree with your interpretation. I know some Ne leading types and the way they approach their goals seems entirely unrealistic, as if they are detached from reality.

My IEE friend constantly talks about wanting to be a old and wise all-knowning type of person in place of a "career". I support people's goals whatever they are, but I do feel like she can't be serious. I think Ne goal-making comprises of what the Ne-er is interested in now and what that can equate to into the future. There is often not enough thought given to how they can reach that. So, I think it is likely that outsiders will view them as not in touch with reality because they aren't very realistic in their goals. This is of course more prominent in IxE. I think this may equally be related to ignoring-Ni(not considering what will likely happen), and is why they are DS-Si(seeking how to make something happen).

I was sitting with the IEE and another probable Ne type, and they were going off on how cool it would be to do X and that we should totally do it. Meanwhile, I'm thinking that despite it sounding fun/whatever, it was totally unrealistic, but they seemed totally serious about it.

Also, I think "can't do anything that causes discomfort(Si) or is uninteresting(Ne)" means "can't do it without feel dissatisfied," meaning that they can and will do it, but are strongly against it. Se/Ni may feel dissatisfied by similar things, but they view it as worth it or necessary. IMO

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Originally Posted by leckysupport

I doubt a LSE or ESE would agree that you could get much from no work, commitment or effort.

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Fair enough - you're right about that part.

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Originally Posted by Cheesy

This is a quote from socionics.us about Ne as a leading function: "Someone with :Ne: as their leading function is very dependent on his/her feelings of interest and disinterest. Interest and boredom seem to be the driving forces in such a person's life — more so than for any other types. Other types also find things 'interesting' and 'boring,' however, they are able to derive satisfaction and enjoyment from things that aren't necessarily interesting and novel, as opposed to types. Just as :Si: types can't make themselves do things that cause internal discomfort or are physically unpleasant, :Ne: types can't make themselves do things that do not engage them mentally (do not give them anything interesting to think about)."
Is this really the case?

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I think Rick gets a bit extreme towards the end of this quote, as there are plenty of Ne/Si types in for instance 3rd world countries who do monotonous or even unpleasant jobs just in order to survive. (at the risk of sounding extreme myself - my point is that not all Ne/Si types - even in more developed countries, will have opportunities open to them to avoid doing such things, but they would certainly prefer to).

To sort of continue that, Maslows pyramid for instance, indicates that one of the baselines of survival is to eat and breathe, any type will do things that are uninteresting etc in order to meet this requirement.

Also - interestingly perhaps, doing a monotonous task, which may involve sitting at a desk, and especially physical work, requiring little effort mental effort, can leave the mind free to wonder off in it's own thoughts, so this can also be useful to an Ne type.

Although another point within that is that being an Ne type doesn't necessarily mean that you think a lot about "interesting" things (and interesting to who)? - as any type can have an overactive brain.

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Si dominants are people who will never work hard for something unless it has a pleasant reward? Ne dominants are people who can't hold down a job that doesn't fascinate them, even if they have to? I find that to be really extreme, unless you're 16 years old.

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Perhaps the way to look at it is that an Si type will work hard for something with a pleasant reward. What are the pleasant rewards? A comfortable house? Nice food? Holidays? Nice bottle of wine? etc.

And then it is also, I think, that Ne types can if need be find ways to make a monotonous job "fascinate" them, even if it's something they do internally to create little variants, to causing a bit off fuss to re-design how certain things are done, shake things up a little (ie look at how some of the bored ILE's act on the forum at times ;)).

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In that case I'm not sure I even value Ne\Si because even though I have a tendency to neglect stuff that aren't interesting\pleasant, I don't see it as a positive thing.. How does someone ever achieve anything worthwhile/get to the point where they can do whatever they please unless they go through unpleasant things that aren't delightful or fascinating? How does someone achieve anything in real life unless they're willing to do things that aren't exactly pleasant? Unless you're born rich or undeniably gifted, you have to work hard..

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I think another way to look at it is that an Ne/Si doesn't *actively* seek doing things that are unpleasant, as one can achieve things without this as I see it self-inflicted turbulance of displeasure and boredom - unless of course it's a situation of necessity and limited options, contrasting it, as it seems like you make it sound that the only way to get anywhere is by doing unpleasant or boring things, which is also not the case.

I don't think Judicious/Decisive (or perhaps rather an aspect of it), or perhaps just say Ne/Si and Ni/Se necessarily has to sounds like an extreme case of Eloi vs Morlocks divide ;)

So maybe you are not Ne/Si, if personal enjoyment of the work environment ie pleasant conditions, coffee and tea breaks, relaxed environment, varied tasks and such, seem completely trivial to you.... but at the same time you're just making a thread and asking a question, so it's not something to type someone over one post like the one you've made, but perhaps think about this paragraph if you are considering your type.
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Originally Posted by Azeroffs

@cheesy
I understand what you're trying to say, and from my perspective I think the quote is true and I agree with your interpretation. I know some Ne leading types and the way they approach their goals seems entirely unrealistic, as if they are detached from reality.

My IEE friend constantly talks about wanting to be a old and wise all-knowning type of person in place of a "career". I support people's goals whatever they are, but I do feel like she can't be serious. I think Ne goal-making comprises of what the Ne-er is interested in now and what that can equate to into the future. There is often not enough thought given to how they can reach that. So, I think it is likely that outsiders will view them as not in touch with reality because they aren't very realistic in their goals. This is of course more prominent in IxE. I think this may equally be related to ignoring-Ni(not considering what will likely happen), and is why they are DS-Si(seeking how to make something happen).

I was sitting with the IEE and another probable Ne type, and they were going off on how cool it would be to do X and that we should totally do it. Meanwhile, I'm thinking that despite it sounding fun/whatever, it was totally unrealistic, but they seemed totally serious about it.

Also, I think "can't do anything that causes discomfort(Si) or is uninteresting(Ne)" means "can't do it without feel dissatisfied," meaning that they can and will do it, but are strongly against it. Se/Ni may feel dissatisfied by similar things, but they view it as worth it or necessary. IMO

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I thought I would comment on this as this is very much in line with my life goals as opposed to a traditional linear career. People in the past often commented that my lack of focus or attention to practical matters has prevented me from reaching my potential. However I believe that many Ne leading types are slow to reach their potential especially during early life as they like to spend time considering a large number of possibilites before deciding how to progress with their life plan. I know a number of slightly older IEE's who have quite a clear view and a practical method to acheive their aims. I think it's a case that Ne types have a broader focus compared to those that prefer other functions and this may seem to them like a total lack of focus. However I believe Ne types do usually develop a focus that tends to narrows slowly and subtly as options are ruled out or discarded. Anyway that's my view on the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by Cheesy

Is this really the case?

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That description of Ne is perfect, one of my favorites.

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Originally Posted by Cheesy

Si dominants are people who will never work hard for something unless it has a pleasant reward? Ne dominants are people who can't hold down a job that doesn't fascinate them, even if they have to? I find that to be really extreme, unless you're 16 years old.

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No, they can work very hard for a variety of reasons.
Plenty of Ne dominants can hold down jobs, even those they don't like and are completely uninterested in (myself included).

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Originally Posted by Cheesy

In that case I'm not sure I even value Ne\Si because even though I have a tendency to neglect stuff that aren't interesting\pleasant, I don't see it as a positive thing.. How does someone ever achieve anything worthwhile/get to the point where they can do whatever they please unless they go through unpleasant things that aren't delightful or fascinating? How does someone achieve anything in real life unless they're willing to do things that aren't exactly pleasant? Unless you're born rich or undeniably gifted, you have to work hard..

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You don't sound Ne/Si.

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Originally Posted by Blaze

i work with an SLI right now and believe it or not Ne and Si kind of work together to get things done. i'm always like, hey what do you think about this...(out of the box idea) and he'll pour cold water all over most of it except for one part that's workable and i'll go off on my merry way working the idea to maximum. then he'll check in w me and i'll be like, i need this thing right away, and he goes and gets it. so we end up with a cool product. and so it goes, idea-cold water-specific thing-work work work-one more thing to make it perfect-DONE!!

but Si isn't really lazy, it only wants to do stuff that's worth the energy. and Ne always comes up with something that's worth it. so, to make a long story short, you get stuff done! :-) you are in touch with the real world, together you get there.

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Exactly, excellent description.

O.k, I'll admit it, this thread was a sham to get you people interested in my type.. it seemes to have worked so give it your best shot:

My name is Cheesy, I like to research socionics even though I hate it. I am easily annoyed by people who are completely wound up like they're hijacked by caffeine+ are snobby. I enjoy a hot cup of London tea. I happen to have a very bad reaction to most Betas. I'm allergic to a snobby sounding voice. I like mine to sound as down to earth as possible. My behavior ranges from serious to completely silly and absurd. I hate formalities and snobbery although people sometimes can misread me as standoffish. When people actually get to know me I'm anything but standoffish. I have unexpected fits of weirdness when I'm around friends. At work I work at home I slack off and indulge in many pleasures. At times I can sit and do nothing at others I'm very restless have patience for nothing and will not tolerate anything slow paced..I like to appear tough but I'm not. It's only a cover to a really childish personality completely unadapt to reality..:D

:biggrin:

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

I think Rick gets a bit extreme towards the end of this quote, as there are plenty of Ne/Si types in for instance 3rd world countries who do monotonous or even unpleasant jobs just in order to survive. (at the risk of sounding extreme myself - my point is that not all Ne/Si types - even in more developed countries, will have opportunities open to them to avoid doing such things, but they would certainly prefer to).

To sort of continue that, Maslows pyramid for instance, indicates that one of the baselines of survival is to eat and breathe, any type will do things that are uninteresting etc in order to meet this requirement.

Also - interestingly perhaps, doing a monotonous task, which may involve sitting at a desk, and especially physical work, requiring little effort mental effort, can leave the mind free to wonder off in it's own thoughts, so this can also be useful to an Ne type.

Although another point within that is that being an Ne type doesn't necessarily mean that you think a lot about "interesting" things (and interesting to who)? - as any type can have an overactive brain.

Perhaps the way to look at it is that an Si type will work hard for something with a pleasant reward. What are the pleasant rewards? A comfortable house? Nice food? Holidays? Nice bottle of wine? etc.

And then it is also, I think, that Ne types can if need be find ways to make a monotonous job "fascinate" them, even if it's something they do internally to create little variants, to causing a bit off fuss to re-design how certain things are done, shake things up a little (ie look at how some of the bored ILE's act on the forum at times ;)).

I think another way to look at it is that an Ne/Si doesn't *actively* seek doing things that are unpleasant, as one can achieve things without this as I see it self-inflicted turbulance of displeasure and boredom - unless of course it's a situation of necessity and limited options, contrasting it, as it seems like you make it sound that the only way to get anywhere is by doing unpleasant or boring things, which is also not the case.

I don't think Judicious/Decisive (or perhaps rather an aspect of it), or perhaps just say Ne/Si and Ni/Se necessarily has to sounds like an extreme case of Eloi vs Morlocks divide ;)

So maybe you are not Ne/Si, if personal enjoyment of the work environment ie pleasant conditions, coffee and tea breaks, relaxed environment, varied tasks and such, seem completely trivial to you.... but at the same time you're just making a thread and asking a question, so it's not something to type someone over one post like the one you've made, but perhaps think about this paragraph if you are considering your type.
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Thank you, these are some interesting points.

What is completely necessary to me in a working environment is to have people I like and get along with and to feel that I'm appreciated for my work.

I've brought this up before, go to the disscusion page on this:

http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...e=Delta_domain

*Direct link doesn't work.

Blaze, I think you nailed it and other people added some good points. It just blurred the extremeness of Rick's description.

thanks friend...glad you found it helpful :D

I never understood people who looked down on others you know, doing 'normal' things. It's like somebody has to do it. I used to be like that too when I was like 13 and very immature. I can't believe the way some people will respect a doctor over a janitor just because the doctor is a doctor. Yeah cleaning shit for a living, who would want to do that, but somebody has to do it or society wouldn't be able to function. In the grand scheme of things they are just as important as the doctor.

Also most doctors aren't doctors because they actually care, they just like the material wealth and status symbols. You can say there's nothing wrong with that, but if you are in a position where you have other people's life in your hands, then you should do it unconditionally.

Also given how fucked up humanity is as a whole truly, how awful, offensive, hypocritical, bigoted, and inhumane *most* people are, why do we want to save them anyway?

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Originally Posted by Pinocchio

Did you mean Se/Ni?

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Is that how you see it? If so, why? I'm not implying error, but I am curious to hear a counter argument as opposed to a statement accepted as truth.

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Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves

I never understood people who looked down on others you know, doing 'normal' things. [...] I can't believe the way some people will respect a doctor over a janitor just because the doctor is a doctor. Yeah cleaning shit for a living, who would want to do that, but somebody has to do it or society wouldn't be able to function. In the grand scheme of things they are just as important as the doctor.

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I can understand but I don't approve of it. In essence, I agree.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

And then it is also, I think, that Ne types can if need be find ways to make a monotonous job "fascinate" them, even if it's something they do internally to create little variants, to causing a bit off fuss to re-design how certain things are done, shake things up a little (ie look at how some of the bored ILE's act on the forum at times ;)).

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At the LIIbrary where I work, I don't mind volunteering to help the aides with shelving when they get behind on it, even though its not part of the LIIbrarian's job. Shelving is commonly seen as one of those mundane tasks that no one wants to do but I actually kind of like it. I like putting things in logical order and feel a compulsion to fix what is not in order. I like to make shelving into a game- think up new ways to get the job done even faster. Shelving also gives me the opportunity to get better acquainted with the Dewey Decimal system and the library's collection. (I didn't remember that we have that item!). Finally, I get to browse through the LIIbrary's materials and find some interesting things to check out. Because shelving isn't very difficult intellectually, I can let my mind wander as I'm doing it.

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Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves

I never understood people who looked down on others you know, doing 'normal' things. It's like somebody has to do it. I used to be like that too when I was like 13 and very immature. I can't believe the way some people will respect a doctor over a janitor just because the doctor is a doctor. Yeah cleaning shit for a living, who would want to do that, but somebody has to do it or society wouldn't be able to function. In the grand scheme of things they are just as important as the doctor.

Also most doctors aren't doctors because they actually care, they just like the material wealth and status symbols. You can say there's nothing wrong with that, but if you are in a position where you have other people's life in your hands, then you should do it unconditionally.

Also given how fucked up humanity is as a whole truly, how awful, offensive, hypocritical, bigoted, and inhumane *most* people are, why do we want to save them anyway?

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TOTALLY agree on the 1st two paragraphs. don't agree on the third because people have potential. But yeah, I was just bitching about this same topic and I'm so glad someone else shares that outlook! :)

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Originally Posted by warrior-librarian

At the LIIbrary where I work

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That's so cute! :) love it. I agree that libraries are really LIIbraries!