How to tell apart LSIs-ISTjs and SLIs-ISTps

Any ideas from Beta people? How would you tell if ISTp is among you trying to look like ISTj? Any ideas related to behavior, VI or anything that an outside observer can notice. Like if you are alone with them how would they be different? What if there are a lot of people present, how would they differ then? How their clothes and hair and things like that might differ? How their friends might differ? How their occupation and work style might differ? How their leisure time interests might differ? How their manners and facial expressions might differ? How their face and body structure might differ?

Any ideas from Delta people? How would you tell if ISTj is among you trying to look like ISTp? Any ideas related to behavior, VI or anything that an outside observer can notice. Like if you are alone with them how would they be different? What if there are a lot of people present, how would they differ then? How their clothes and hair and things like that might differ? How their friends might differ? How their occupation and work style might differ? How their leisure time interests might differ? How their manners and facial expressions might differ? How their face and body structure might differ?

I'll take a shot - I'd say that ISTjs would be really concerned with honesty and doing things "by the book" while ISTPs would be quite happy to bend the rules if it would help them out.

http://intuitivecentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3138

how about this for Si?

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Originally Posted by Transigent

Exactly what the girl above said, like exactly. (Jesus that was totally accurate and brilliant.)

ISTj's will initiate things.

ISTp's are more like stone. They kinda remind me of something akin to a "stubborn wussy". They are cool though, just don't really expect them to do much of anything besides hoard food and work on various things.

Socially, they can be shyish and sometimes sarcastic, but as they get older they tend to become more genuine around people.

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Thank ya sur! I heart many of your observations too. Right on target. Let's start a love fest. Peeeeople alllll over the wwworld, join hands, start a love train... I especially loved your singing in the chat. It put me is such a good mood, AND that guys link you posted...geez, every now and then, my imagination randomly re-plays those images and I just start cracking up. See what you've done! You've infested my brain with...such things.

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Originally Posted by Rocky

http://intuitivecentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3138

how about this for Si?

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Sounds like you know Si. However I'm not sure how much I can relate to it :?
For example:
"This leads to another oddity; not everything gets through. We won't hear everything you say, or see everything that happens in the outside world."

I'm not sure if I can relate to this too much. I feel like I see everything and hear everything all the time. I am always completely aware of my immediate surroundings and everything that is happening there. At least I think so. I love the incoming sensory data and as long as there is enough of it / it is fast enough I can keep completely focused. Even hours if necessary. This is subjective evaluation though. My wife however does this "selective sensing" or whatever you should call it and it kind of annoys me that she never did see all the interesting stuff I did when I want to talk about it, lol.

And about this:
"Introverted Sensing has a habit of reflecting on the outside "objects", as opposed to just acting on it (Se). This means that we may pay attention to the outside world for a moment, and than stop paying attention. This habit can leave other people feel somewhat unapprietiated. This is because life and the outside world keep on going on without us. We will spend one minute focusing on a person, and then the next ten in our heads."

I can't relate to this either :( I always pay attention to the outside world. At least I feel like I do. And what you mean by Se is "just acting on it". Do you mean Se just "registers" everything as facts and does not reflect on their meaning?

Anyways I do have some concentration problems so I might miss some details because of that. But it is not like "1 minute focusing, 10 minutes reflection" like you said. More like "1 minute focusing, 5 seconds shaking my head because I lost concentration and trying to get my thoughts together".

I'm seriously starting to think I don't have Si. I'm not very aesthetic or artistic and I don't reflect on things like you describe. I have no sense of what colour fits with what and I'm not sure if I try to "balance" things in my head like you do. The problem is ISTj description doesn't fit me well at all. TiSe sounds like I could have that. But the behavioral descriptions are not anywhere near. SeTi sounds possible too but I'm not energetic and aggressive enough and I don't have enough friends to be ESTp I guess :lol: ISFj..ESFp..who knows anymore :? I'm trying to get deeper into this Si/Se thing to finally get it...

Back to topic you little *****! Make love elsewhere and live happily ever after you F spammers!

And thanks for the two real answers maize and Trans! :D But...I don't know to which I relate more..being initiative or being stone..neither? :o

When with friends and family I guess I want to get people involved with what I do. I much more like to do things as a group than alone. Unless I do something which requires hard concentration. I can't concentrate when other people are around (I concentrate on them). But this usually means studying or programming or stuff like that. Well actually I do like pair-programming a lot but then both of us are concentrating on the same thing and not distracting each other.

I don't think I'm "stone" either :o But among strangers I'm not very initiative before I get the sense of what kind of people I'm interacting with. Until then I'm purely observing. When I'm confident I know everyone and the situation well enough (might take 10 seconds, 10 minutes, or an hour or whatever depending on situation) I become more "aggressive". Sometimes I stay as "stone" and passive if I get the feeling it is the best thing to do in the current situation (people are boring, I can't contribute anything useful, etc).

Ok. This post was about myself :) Because I'm partly trying to type myself here. I'm also trying to figure out if the people I think are ISTjs (couple of ppl I know) are actually ISTps...which is the second motivation of this thread.

Though they might seem similar because they have just one letter difference, :Si: :Te: and :Ti: :Se: are totally different. The relationships that they form with people would be totally different. You would tend to like one and be suspicious of the other. If you got some Delta people together and a LSI came in, everyone would become really closed and serious and unaccepting until the LSI left. It would be obvious that he/she is out of place. If there's just the two of you, it would be harder to tell and might take more time.

My guess is:

ISTJs give off an impression: "Everything should always be done THE RIGHT WAY by everyone." If you do something the wrong way, they'll tell you. If you disagree, they'll dig their heels in.

With ISTPs, you can do whatever you want, as long as you let them do what they want. If you do something the wrong way, they don't really care. They might stay and watch, though, giving you the feeling they're secretly making bets on the outcome.

The shortest and most accurate definition of the judging/perceiving scale:

Irrationality equals I define object-of-thought.
Rationality equals object of thought defines me.
oldforumlinkviewtopic-581.html

The rest is commentary.
And that is where the trouble starts... :8*

Short definitions require long explanations :wink:

I think you'd be more likely an ESTP than an ISTJ.

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Originally Posted by XoX

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Originally Posted by Rocky

http://intuitivecentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3138

how about this for Si?

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Sounds like you know Si. However I'm not sure how much I can relate to it :?
For example:
"This leads to another oddity; not everything gets through. We won't hear everything you say, or see everything that happens in the outside world."

I'm not sure if I can relate to this too much. I feel like I see everything and hear everything all the time. I am always completely aware of my immediate surroundings and everything that is happening there. At least I think so. I love the incoming sensory data and as long as there is enough of it / it is fast enough I can keep completely focused. Even hours if necessary. This is subjective evaluation though. My wife however does this "selective sensing" or whatever you should call it and it kind of annoys me that she never did see all the interesting stuff I did when I want to talk about it, lol.

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Hmm... when I was a kid, my doctor said that I tested with excellent hearing, but, "selective hearing", which would explain why I never listend to my parents, lol.

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And about this:
"Introverted Sensing has a habit of reflecting on the outside "objects", as opposed to just acting on it (Se). This means that we may pay attention to the outside world for a moment, and than stop paying attention. This habit can leave other people feel somewhat unapprietiated. This is because life and the outside world keep on going on without us. We will spend one minute focusing on a person, and then the next ten in our heads."

I can't relate to this either :( I always pay attention to the outside world. At least I feel like I do. And what you mean by Se is "just acting on it". Do you mean Se just "registers" everything as facts and does not reflect on their meaning?

Anyways I do have some concentration problems so I might miss some details because of that. But it is not like "1 minute focusing, 10 minutes reflection" like you said. More like "1 minute focusing, 5 seconds shaking my head because I lost concentration and trying to get my thoughts together".

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Ok, maye it was an exaggeration, but I still so the switching back and forth thing.

If you say that you are always paying attention to the outside world, though, that sounds more like Extraversion.

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I'm seriously starting to think I don't have Si. I'm not very aesthetic or artistic and I don't reflect on things like you describe. I have no sense of what colour fits with what and I'm not sure if I try to "balance" things in my head like you do. The problem is ISTj description doesn't fit me well at all. TiSe sounds like I could have that. But the behavioral descriptions are not anywhere near. SeTi sounds possible too but I'm not energetic and aggressive enough and I don't have enough friends to be ESTp I guess :lol: ISFj..ESFp..who knows anymore :? I'm trying to get deeper into this Si/Se thing to finally get it...

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Which is why you might be ESTP.

Rocky wrote:

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Which is why you might be ESTP.

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XoX an ESTP? hahahaha... no way man.

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Originally Posted by Arcanum

Rocky wrote:

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Which is why you might be ESTP.

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XoX an ESTP? hahahaha... no way man.

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Exactly :? I can entertain that thought for a bit but then someone always laughs me out of that...

And Whenever I make someone read the ISTj description I pretty much get the same result :?

I can entertain the ESTp/ISTj idea for a while. Even ESFp/ISFj idea but always seem to fall back to SiTe or TeSi.

I guess this is about me not knowing myself well enough. Rocky just makes Si sound so mystical and I feel my sensing is quite straightforward and not that selective at all. I have to give this more thought..maybe I'm ESTp with a strong logical subtype or something :D

I made my wife read the Si description and she agrees much of it sounds like me. The main difference is I don't have a distinct "observe->reflect->observe" cycle where I detach myself from my surroundings. More like I observe and reflect simultaneously. So I'm basically "here" all the time and sense everything but it seems I'm always 1-2 seconds "behind" real world (maybe more) trying to actively reflect on the incoming data and connecting it to what I previously know.

Talking to me is sometimes like talking to someone via a satellite connection where there is always delay before I answer. And I often react in a suprising way like I can connect what was said / what happened to a completely different thing and switch the direction of conversation suddenly. It is hard for me to keep on topic if I see another more interesting path connected to the original topic. This could be N "filter" instead of Si "filter" but somehow I doubt it. Some people have problems understanding the connections I make so it seems more like it is based on my own experiences than universal patterns. But I'm not sure. I often have to explain the connection before people get it.

XoX wrote:

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I guess this is about me not knowing myself well enough. Rocky just makes Si sound so mystical and I feel my sensing is quite straightforward and not that selective at all. I have to give this more thought..maybe I'm ESTp with a strong logical subtype or something

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Maybe Rocky was taking drugs at the time of that post. Anyhow, there has to be something that you definitely know about yourself :? . Do you like ethics XoX? this will clear any possible :Se: dominant trait.

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Originally Posted by XoX

I made my wife read the Si description and she agrees much of it sounds like me. The main difference is I don't have a distinct "observe->reflect->observe" cycle where I detach myself from my surroundings. More like I observe and reflect simultaneously. So I'm basically "here" all the time and sense everything but it seems I'm always 1-2 seconds "behind" real world (maybe more) trying to actively reflect on the incoming data and connecting it to what I previously know.

Talking to me is sometimes like talking to someone via a satellite connection where there is always delay before I answer. And I often react in a suprising way like I can connect what was said / what happened to a completely different thing and switch the direction of conversation suddenly. It is hard for me to keep on topic if I see another more interesting path connected to the original topic. This could be N "filter" instead of Si "filter" but somehow I doubt it. Some people have problems understanding the connections I make so it seems more like it is based on my own experiences than universal patterns. But I'm not sure. I often have to explain the connection before people get it.

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That sounds about right.

There are always problems with communications/interpretations, though, so that may have the problem with you reading something that I wrote.

And this helps as well.

http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm

XoX, Ive been reading your post and I really think that you are ISTP. Why not try righting your own self description though. It might give you some insight.

It seems we jumped from evaluating ISTp/ISTj differences to evaluating me :D

But good answers from everyone. And again we are ending up as me being more Si than Se...the only problem is that everytime I decide I am Si I immediately start to second guess the decision and find features and behavior that contradict with that...It is like when I don't have an "answer" I desperately seek one and when I find an answer I go totally reverse and start doubting it and tearing the logic that lead to the answer apart :lol:

I reconstruct the topic now...same question as the original topic but let's use other types. How would you know (in real life) if a person is ISTp or ISFp (SiTe vs SiFe)? What about ISTp or INTp (Si vs Ni)? By how they look and behave etc. Any ideas on this?

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Originally Posted by XoX

It seems we jumped from evaluating ISTp/ISTj differences to evaluating me :D

But good answers from everyone. And again we are ending up as me being more Si than Se...the only problem is that everytime I decide I am Si I immediately start to second guess the decision and find features and behavior that contradict with that...It is like when I don't have an "answer" I desperately seek one and when I find an answer I go totally reverse and start doubting it and tearing the logic that lead to the answer apart :lol:

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Sounds like you are a perceiver. :wink:

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I reconstruct the topic now...same question as the original topic but let's use other types. How would you know (in real life) if a person is ISTp or ISFp (SiTe vs SiFe)? What about ISTp or INTp (Si vs Ni)? By how they look and behave etc. Any ideas on this?

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Wow, that would have to be a detailed answer...

I started doubting already, lol.

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Originally Posted by Rocky

http://intuitivecentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3138

how about this for Si?

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From the thread above:

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Si is said to be linked to memory and recall. However, although I have an excellent memory, it is much more global and symbolic than specific and literal; and therefore is probably Ni-based rather than Si. I've always found it easy to access my internal visualisations, but I've lately come to notice that they are generally rather hazy, fleeting and vague. There is certainly no chance of confusing these misty images with the stark vividness of outer reality. I think it may be very different for Si. As Amathya described, it is only during "unconscious" states (dreaming, meditation) that I perceive internal images with the same clarity and vividness as real-world objects. These strong images may have a magical or mystical quailty about them, particularly when they occur during meditation.

This sheds a whole new light on the way dom-Si types may perceive the world. If they are continually generating internal images with this degree of clarity, it would be very easy to confuse them with outer reality. Thus they are very likely to react to, defend and attempt to impose their inner reality onto the outside world. This ties in very nicely with Jung's description of Si types."

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Originally Posted by Rocky

OMG...yes! You got it. You can really say that that's the basis of Si, and all else are just details.

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I mean I'm not sure if I can relate to this at all. This is what I mean by Si sounding somehow "mystical" to me. Whenever I read a description like this I start thinking "I must be Se" because my memory is not that great and I'm not conscious about any internal images or things like that. I'm not even very visual I guess. Sometimes a strong image can get "stuck" into my mind but often I can't recall even people's faces (but I do recognize the people when I see them again I just can't visualize the faces when I don't see them). So the kind of Si described above sounds like a science fiction movie I would love to see more than it sounds my own perceptions :D

When I see something I see more like how it relates to other things in the form of analogies. I am fairly good at finding analogies. But they are not really that visual. More like "this situation is analogous to situations X and Y from the past" and this helps me see the current situation in a more generic way and even predict future. Sometimes this freaks me out if the current situation is analogous to situations from the past which did not have a happy ending.

But I don't trust this "future predicting" thing too much. If I get the feeling "this will end up in DOOOOOM" I usually only keep that in mind but don't let it affect me TOO much. This is because I hate the idea that my destiny is fixed somehow (so the concept of "future predicting" annoyes me as well as interests me).

I mean I can often see a pattern of what "future" probably holds but I only trust this pattern if it can be logically and empirically supported. Otherwise I distrust it. Is this some form of "weak intuition" or something? Or is this just my version of Si? I doubt it is dominant Ni since I don't really _see_ any patterns and sometimes they are more like gut feelings (instead of being clear analogies). I'm also not very good at taking in abstract information. I prefer to take in concrete information and then abstract it in my mind or something. And hmm...I do like pictures embedded in text so in this sense I am visual. I do believe that a good pic tells more than 1000 words.

My head hurts again from all this thinking :D Maybe I'm a feeler trying to force myself to unnatural logical thinking or something :? Forgive me for being so confused all the time :?

Hey there is one way to see if your ISTP, considering that Rocky is. Would you start a thread about a certain type where you refer to them as pricks?

Trying to see if you're also bad with people skills :wink: .

Start a What's my Type Thread then.

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Originally Posted by Arcanum

Hey there is one way to see if your ISTP, considering that Rocky is. Would you start a thread about a certain type where you refer to them as pricks?

Trying to see if you're also bad with people skills :wink: .

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Haha. I doubt I try that.

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Originally Posted by Rocky

Start a What's my Type Thread then.

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I might later :) It is just that my "gut feelings" tell me or my "weak intuition points" or "fill in suitable description" that it is obvious the thread would end up with ISTp, I would piss of some people in the process and in the end I would still have some doubts.

It would go like..most people here would quickly agree together that I'm ISTp. Then some people would throw out some weird types and most people would disagree. Then I would try to find alternative explanations and tell what is not matching. An argument would follow and it would make some people get pissed for whatever reason like in some other threads. So we would end up with the exact same situation we are now except more people would be pissed about me and maybe about each other :D

Many people here seem to be fixated about me being ISTp (that might mean I really am! or it might mean they have just painted a picture of me being ISTp in their mind and refuse to reconsider). I doubt this will change anytime soon but I try to sniff when the time is right :)

I was really planning to make this thread less about me and more about ISTj/ISTp differences...well I learned a lot about Si :) And as I said my wife thought it might very well be my main function after reading about it.

Also, there is something about Delta that makes me think I belong here more than to other quadras. I made a similar thread in Beta and it dried up much faster than this one.

Thanks for all who contributed! And you still can if you want to! I don't get bored to threads and discussions that do not "conclude" that easily but I think many other people do so I rest my case for now :D

Well, since you restated the purpose of this thread is comparison (thanks for getting us back on track :P ) I will try to describe what differences Ive noticed between ISTPs and ISTJs. You may or may not identify with any of it.
ISTPs seem somewhat passive most of the time. They dont move to direct people unless they have to and they dont care about rules and regulations as much as they care about what makes common sense. For example one ISTP I know is a handyman. He often examines a task and tries to come up with the best way to proceed to get the maximum results. ISTPs often like to work for themselves. They will usually end up in some job that allows them freedom from bosses and if possible most paperwork. ISTPs often have difficulty at work because they like to do things the way they see fit and that doesnt allways work out well with company policy. They also like to begin and end work when they see fit and will come in late or leave early or not show up at all. This applys more to the ISTP men than women that Ive noticed. I think the women may be a bit more orderly and consistent.
They may or may not be neat. Ive seen two varieties of ISTPs when it comes to appearance. Most will dress in jeans and t-shirts, sometimes they have a special pair of shoes that they wear regardless of the occasion or whatever else they are wearing. This seems to apply particularly to the audio ones that really like music. The visual ones are very neat and dress well. Around their house you may find piles of paperwork or tools. In the kitchen they like things to be clean but not necessarily orderly.
The only time ISTPs like things to be formal is when there is money to be made. They usually will work hard to make enough to support themselves for months and then they stop working or barely work so they can attend to their hobbies or traveling or laying on the couch. They are always looking for work that will allow them more free time ( I do too :wink: )
ISTPs are a paradox. They move close to others and then move away when they feel others are begining to rely on them too much. They want people to 'get' them without having to explain themselves (this is a very defining trait). OK thats enough of the ISTP for the moment.

The ISTJ from my perspective is different. At first it can be confusing because both the ISTJ and the ISTP appear to be quiet serious people. They both seem concervative and cautions. ISTJs are organization minded people. They like institutions and businesses. They like investments, savings, contracts, and securities. They like to belong to institutions, and clubs and sit on boards of commitees. They like to see things done and will complete most task if at all possible. Most ISTJs are fair minded but can have a wicked streak of :Se: that will cause them to push to get their will done. They dont mind routine and in fact would like that everything take place decently and by arrangement. They dont mind arranging scheduals for other people as well, and infact will often critisize people who are too loose in their arrangements.
ISTJs like to be punctual. They want to be on time and will begin preparing for things in advance to make sure things go the way they are supposed to go. ISTJs Are exhaustive, painstaking and thorough, espcially where money is concerned. They like to joke but only when its approriate. They believe in hierarchy, subservience and the letter of the law.

These descriptions are rather hard sounding but IRL neither are so extreme. Both types can be cosiderate, moral, loving and helpful. Im just trying to underscore some main ideas.

whew! Now we'll return to our regular scheduald program. :P

Damn...I just decided to try being INFj for a while...There are some things in INFj description that could be me.

But..your ISTp description is pretty good match too...ISTj description only slightly and occasionally. I was ready to try life as INFj for a while but now I'm again confused :D

The question is...are Te and Si my 5th and 6th functions (dual seeking function and hidden agenda) or are Ne and Fi my 5th and 6th function. I think all of them are active at different times. For some reason (at the moment) I _relate_ more to ENFps and INFjs and feel like ISTps and ESTjs _give_ me something. But your ISTp description was quite accurate.... Anyways I read more about Ne and Si and suddenly Ne seems like what I do more and Si seems like something I would need from my dual...damn this confusion :D

I wouldnt worry about it too much. Give yourself some time and just try to observe yourself and others and see how you naturally respond. I dont think most of us concentrate on our strong functions much because they come so natural to us. When you want something you reach out and grab it. You dont think about your hands and arms and how your fingers are positioned.
Ok heres and example. We may drive home from work everyday. We know the route and even some shortcuts. We may get home and not even remember which way we took cause our mind was elsewhere. But when asked to go somewhere we havent been before, espcially far away our attention goes up. We cant take things for granted. We may be a little nervous. We dont know exactly how long it might take or what obstacles might be in the way.
Meaning... it would be quite a leap to jump from ISTP to INFJ :o
Most type descriptions are bumped up to make the point but it might leave us feeling like we dont add up. Our modern world, responsibilities, families, social groups may not allow us to run nilly-willy wild doing what comes easy to us. So we might work in companies, shop, do laundry, pay bills. rent movies, mow the lawn, pet the dog, all kinds of humdrum stuff because thats what supposed civilized people do these days :?

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Originally Posted by Topaz

I wouldnt worry about it too much. Give yourself some time and just try to observe yourself and others and see how you naturally respond. I dont think most of us concentrate on our strong functions much because they come so natural to us.

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Well I constantly worry about everything! :o I'm not sure if it is more ISTp or INFj thing though. Or just my thing. But all the sudden I just started thinking "where exactly is my Si and Te"? I seriously consider being a feeler now (at least for a while, hehe).

I have been a lot in environments where S and T are forced to be used (sports and science) so I thought maybe I have "overdeveloped" them when young. After social pressure was not that much of a factor I have moved away from S and T and nowadays I don't think I use them that much unless forced. Some might say I have just developed my inferior functions recently but it might be I'm only now learning to understand what are my stronger functions that I have neglected in the past. It is like when child I felt I _have to_ be a logical senser. But now I don't and ST is going back to where it belongs (somewhere inside me). How does that sound? :D

I really don't have much of the Si strengths and when have you seen me use Te? :o The thing I thought was "thinking" might just be Ne as creative function. I thought I somehow use logic to extract patterns but maybe it is Ne.

I read about Ne a lot and it is not that mystical after all. Si, however, sounds really mystical to me now. My wife has Si as creative function ("confirmed" now) and we found out we are so much different in that sense. She has these vivid memories of the past and they affect her so much. To me future is so much more interesting than past and connecting with the "future" seems more natural than connecting with the past.

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Originally Posted by Topaz

Meaning... it would be quite a leap to jump from ISTP to INFJ :o

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Haha oh yes. But my wife jumped from ISFj to ESFj (FiSe to FeSi) which is quite a leap too...it came after understanding the functions better. Some people have jumped from ENTp to who knows what here (ok they are ENTps...they might do it for fun, hehe).

Illusionary relationship would actually be a pretty good description of my relationship with my wife. Much better than the supervisor.

Ok one more thing. When I was MBTI "virgin" and doing my first test. I tested as INTj. That would be close to socionics INTp. INTp is benefactor for INFj and people have a habbit to first test as their benefactor (or so "they say"). I changed my MBTI type to ISTp because my childhood behavior seems ISTp like. I have never really considered my socionics type seriously before. I just adopted the ISTp here too. So if you look at my life 1-20 years of age it has many ISTp characteristics. If you look past 20 it doesn't have too much. I decided to forget about my childhood and try to pick a type that matches with my _current_ self. ISTp doesn't too much really. In the socionics.com test it always says my conscious type is p but my subconcious type is j. This would match well with being MBTI INFP and socionics INFj. I behave like irrational but internally I'm actually rational type.

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Originally Posted by Arcanum

lol. This is very amusing.

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Hehe. Well it says INFjs make good fiction writers :D (actually it was MBTI INFPs that make good fiction writers). I have many things in common with MBTI INFP and FiNe might work for me so why not being socionics INFj :D

For the record:
I am seriously considering that I might not be ISTp after all. Making a case for INFj is the first part of my campaign for making people stop automatically associating me with ISTp and have open mind. We shall see whether INFj is the end or just the beginning. I used to be really good at creating fictional characters when young (I was always better at fiction writing than factual writing in school). I can get absorbed in these fictional characters so much as to almost think they are me :D I'm not sure if I'm doing that now or if I was doing that with ISTp...I hope this stays "amusing" instead of becoming "annoying" :D

P.S.
I have some problems talking about myself here this much. Not because I don't like to talk about myself but because I don't want to piss off people and look self-centered and egoistic. So if I get too absorbed in this please tell me to stop. I sometimes cross the line without noticing it :D I apologize if I do that! But at the same time I enjoy this :D

P.S. 2
I picked the INFj intuitive subtype because the ethical subtype (psychologist) description doesn't match me too well but the intuitive subtype (teacher) does much better I think. I use my wife to do "reality checks" so I can be sure this is not just happening in my imagination but INFj is actually a realistic possibility worth considering.

On ISTj/ISTp, I think schroedinger's cat and Topaz put it well.

I think it can be simplistically summarized thus:

ISTj - rigid and inclined to impose rules on others
ISTp - flexible and unconcerned about what others do

In my professional life I often meet ISTjs as Quality Managers. In that job they're a nightmare because they make an already rigid and bureaucratic field even more rigid and bureaucratic. But in my present company the quality manager is an ISTp, and he introduces a refreshing flexibility to it. However, he also often does not do the job as thoroughly as an ISTj would.

As for XoX's type, I see signs of being a perceiver as Rocky said, and also of weak :Fe: - so perhaps ISTp is really it?

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Originally Posted by Expat

On ISTj/ISTp, I think schroedinger's cat and Topaz put it well.

I think it can be simplistically summarized thus:

ISTj - rigid and inclined to impose rules on others
ISTp - flexible and unconcerned about what others do

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This is a good summary. I think I have correctly typed my friends. And I'm pretty sure I'm not either of these. Although I have some sympathy for the ISTp approach. I am not at all like ISTj but I can't say I'm unconcerned either. I like to think I'm flexible but very concerned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Expat

As for XoX's type, I see signs of being a perceiver as Rocky said, and also of weak :Fe: - so perhaps ISTp is really it?

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I have a new theory :D I am ENFp with intuitive subtype. Here is my explanation....

The EGO Block
-----------------
1. Ne - Program function. Subconscious function. Preferred function. I have confused this and thinking somehow. I don't usually consciously think at all really... I just do things. Ne is really not that "mystical" version of intuition. Ni is the "real" intuition I think. Ne sort of just helps to see all possible ways to look at a piece of data. Not mystical at all. The patterns are there, Ne just grabs them. Ni takes a real intuitive "leap". It is not tied to the data or the objects in the same way Ne is. This is how I see it now.

2. Fi - Creative function. Not preferred function. I sometimes use this very much. But other times I suppress it because it somehow embarasses me how sensitive I really am. I appreciate logical and objective approach so much I have learned to pretty much dismiss my Fi as completely useless.
I mean how embarassing it is to cry like a baby because of King Kong's failed love story? Very embarassing...I am a victim of "males are T" approach...I have to learn to use my Fi more...

Note: There is a possibility that Fi is subconscious and Ne is conscious. It would make me INFj. But I still prefer Ne so I would be intuitive subtype anyways.

The Super-Ego block
------------------------
3. Se - Role Function.

4. Ti - PoLR.

Note: I'm not completely sure about which is my PoLR and which is my role. This is because I still don't grasp what these functions REALLY do. Ti might be my role because I sometimes say I "overanalyse" things. But again I might have completely misunderstood what Ti really is. Maybe I haven't really done real "analysis" in my life...I would be inclined to say Se is role and Ti is PoLR at this moment...I'm still a bit confused about the order in this block.

The Super-ID block
----------------------
In this block I have the "little ISTp" inside me that I have thought to be "me" recently. This is why I do relate to ISTp description in some way and at the same time don't. I want to be more like ISTp but I guess I can't without actually being in the company of an ISTp. On the other hand...same thing happens with ESTj description...but maybe not that much.

5. Si - Dual seeking. I have mistaken that this is strong. I have this function but it is NOT strong. My wife described her Si and it is something I would need but what I don't have.

6. Te - Hidden agenda. "This function willfully seeks to express itself and to become energized into a state of confidence or creativity. It may attempt to compete with other functions and become dominant, deceiving many to believe it is a strong and resourceful function". I have mistaken that this is strong. I seriously need help in making decisions and concluding things. This can easily be seen with my inability to decide my type and stick with the decision.

Note: This block might be SiTe or TeSi. Both of these I need more and both of these I appreciate. Which one I seek from a dual? I can't tell yet. But the fact my wife has Si but not Te implies Si is my dual seeking. I don't yearn to have Si I think. It sounds so mystical and I'm mostly in awe when I hear about it. Just that having someone with Si around just makes my life a lot easier. This is how I see it now. Really...I can't even remember my address or where I parked my car...and I get lost really easily in a new place...I have really no sense of direction...without my wife I would be in trouble...how can I ever have thought I have strong Si...

The ID Block
---------------
7. Ni - Control function. Easy to see and criticize in others.

8. Fe - Standard function. Normally not visible/used at all. Benefactor can activate this.

Note: I haven't come to terms with this block yet. It might be NiFe or FeNi...Expat said I don't show much Fe. This would mean NiFe (and ENFp).
Then again I can't see why I would criticize Ni in others...I almost feel like I would be more inclined to criticize overuse of Fe...ok...I can think of some cases to criticize Ni too.

The illusionary relations seems to work with my wife (would make me INFj) but benefactor is not out of the question (would make me ENFp).
But I won't start typing myself through type relations. Maybe my wife is not ESFj but ESTj in the end or who knows what she is. And subtypes make things more difficult. We might have benefactor relations which in some ways resembles illusionary or who knows what. Type relations are a bad typing means...

So...I'm putting effort of turning myself into ENFp or INFj now :D I wonder if I can convert any "ISTp cultists" with this or is all my effort doomed into oblivion :D

:shock: :shock:




:shock:








BTW, did you're wife agree with my Si description? :)

And I guess it's possible you are ENFP.......

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These descriptions are rather hard sounding but IRL neither are so extreme. Both types can be cosiderate, moral, loving and helpful. Im just trying to underscore some main ideas.

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Wow, Topaz, those were awesome descriptions! :)
I can relate to everything there.

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Originally Posted by Rocky

BTW, did you're wife agree with my Si description? :)

And I guess it's possible you are ENFP.......

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Well yes she did. I wouldn't trust her 100% though since she has been agreeing too much lately on these issues...she first agreed that many parts of it fits me too. Then decided maybe it doesn't, lol. But anyways she thinks that she has Si (although not as first function) and can relate to pretty much everything you wrote. She disagrees a bit with the wording (like seeing people as Gods etc) but agrees with the main point. We discussed it pretty long and now it seems obvious.

I hope to stay ENFp for the rest of my life :D I feel comfortable and good with it now. I hope I don't start getting doubts after my new type starts to bore me, lol. I just have to learn to trust my Ne more and instead of just dismissing my Fi learn to accept it as a strength and important part of me.

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Originally Posted by Rick

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These descriptions are rather hard sounding but IRL neither are so extreme. Both types can be cosiderate, moral, loving and helpful. Im just trying to underscore some main ideas.

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Wow, Topaz, those were awesome descriptions! :)
I can relate to everything there.

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Thanks Rick :D .... arent you ENFP? What has your experience been?

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Originally Posted by XoX

I hope to stay ENFp for the rest of my life :D :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: I feel comfortable and good with it now. I hope I don't start getting doubts after my new type starts to bore me, lol. I just have to learn to trust my Ne more and instead of just dismissing my Fi learn to accept it as a strength and important part of me.

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:lol: XoX YOURE KILLING ME HERE! :lol: Well at least Im not bored. :P
So youre saying that you agree with the ENFP descriptions even more than the ISTPs? hmmmmm :8*
Im bewildered.
Maybe VI could help :D If you have any photos that might give us a clue. ISTPs, ENFPs and INFJs do have some physical differences. Of course if this is too intrusive then just disregard it. Im American and our cultures differ when it comes to stuff like that :oops:
Its too bad the name Delta is already taken. :( and by and ESFP at that!(no offense Kim, eh.. and Delta)

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Originally Posted by Topaz

:lol: XoX YOURE KILLING ME HERE! :lol: Well at least Im not bored. :P

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I'm glad I can keep you from falling into the abyss of boredom. That is the worst thing that could happen to a person!

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Originally Posted by Topaz

So youre saying that you agree with the ENFP descriptions even more than the ISTPs? hmmmmm :8*
Im bewildered.

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Well I seriously doubt I have strong Si, Se, or Ni after reading more about them and discussing about them with people who use those. Then again I can relate much better to what is written about Ne. That really leaves only ENFp, ENTp, INFj, INTj as options. At the moment I rank them 1) ENFp, 2) INFj, 3) ENTp, 4) INTj. I do still keep door open for other types too I guess, lol.

I don't relate to Te at all really. So that would make it even more likely that I'm not ISTp or ESTj. I don't have strong Si. I don't have strong Te. Pretty much end of discussion I guess, lol.

I have learned to avoid typing by behavioral descriptions. Behavior is so dependent on environment. Of course the ENFp descriptions have things that make me doubt a bit. But ISTp descriptions have at least as many things that don't really fit at all. None of the types fits me that well if I read only behavioral descriptions. The best behavioral description so far has been the ENFp with strong N subtype description. INFj with strong N subtype has been the second best.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Topaz

Maybe VI could help :D If you have any photos that might give us a clue. ISTPs, ENFPs and INFJs do have some physical differences.

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No one here can VI...Lot of people in the chat have seen my pictures (I won't post them here but I can show you them there). The most popular impression is that I am E and j (!). ENFj and ESTj being most popular. Then there are lots of other types that have at least one vote. ISTp has exactly one vote. What I read from the subtype descriptions the ENFp N subtype has better defined shapes in their face (like jaw and bone structure in general etc) and less roundness than the F subtype. Most people think I am j and not p based on my pics but maybe it is the subtype that makes me look j or something. If I don't trust behavior descriptions how can I trust VI? :)

To have them next to eachother.. The ISTj will stand cool and all and the ISTP will have pimples and be strange and think they are better then the ISTj but the istj just laugh and thinks of his greatness...

oh, you would probably just notice the ISTj if you put them next to eachother.. The ISTp would lie on the floor with a dagger in the back!! MOUAHAHAHHA!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Originally Posted by Superman

To have them next to eachother.. The ISTj will stand cool and all and the ISTP will have pimples and be strange and think they are better then the ISTj but the istj just laugh and thinks of his greatness...

oh, you would probably just notice the ISTj if you put them next to eachother.. The ISTp would lie on the floor with a dagger in the back!! MOUAHAHAHHA!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Thanks for warning...Next time I'm going to meet an ISTj I will wear a bulletproof vest and a helmet and carry this http://www.gunshopfinder.com/smithan...model629PP.jpg
He can try to dagger that :shock: :wink:

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Originally Posted by Kraus

Heyyyy, you're SLI again! :D
I knew it. You didn't really seem all that ENFp. :)

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Well you have to try everything once. Even being an ENFp :D. In case you want to try it sometime I warn you that it is an extreme sport and you are not allowed to use a safety net...:lol:.

I'm not really typical ISTp though :?. I'm like an ISTp from another planet :).

ISTps, 2 of them, both guys... They both try to seem very unique, they don't believe in tests, they listen to (or have listened to in some point) Tiamat and other kinds of heavy music. They are very sure that they are always right. They sometimes are, but not like I would ever tell them that. :8* They are rather phlegmatic, but in an aggressive way. They always have the look that they are thinking about evil things. So if you meet them, they will probably be rather reserved, they won't show much body-language, they seem to have strong eyebrows, because they keep glaring at the world. When you argue with them, they will tell you why they are right and if you try to prove them wrong, they'll get very mean. They won't even try to argue, they'll just tell you "you're wrong. you don't know enough to argue". They will never admit that they were wrong and they are not very willing to compromise. They are mean misanthropic people who don't even try to hide that they hate most people. And they really do go "Muahahahaaaaa".

ISTjs, two of them, both girls: They are more positive, compared to ISTps. From another post, written by me: "I know a couple of ISTjs and they are very similar. They even look similar in a way. Both wear rather gray not-outstanding clothes, glasses, no make-up, are cum laude students, short, friendly and most importantly - both are selectively opinionated. They are not very original in their thoughts, but they are intelligent in a logical way (rather analytical, not sharp and witty)." They also think they are right most of the time, but they are willing to explain their thoughts. If you still don't agree, they might say, "This is clear evidence, how can't you see I'm right?!". They won't be judgemental about it. Also, they are very strict about details in everything that they do. True perfectionists. They will suck it up, if others pay no attention to details and their life isn't influenced by it. They are rather positive people, but they rarely show it. They worry a lot and they will do something about it. When they worry about an exam, they will spend A LOT of time studying.

And how to see the difference... ISTps are evil, ISTjs are shy. ISTps thinks that everyone else is wrong, ISTjs just think that they themselves are right. ISTps try to give the impression that nothing can influence them, because they are so special, but are really VERY easy to offend. Then they will treat you as a life-long enemy. ISTjs on the other hand give no first impression at all, so it looks like they are very easy to influence, but they are much stronger inside. They are not very easy to offend. If you say the wrong thing, they will rather angry than offended. They might not even take it personally.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kristiina

And how to see the difference... ISTps are evil, ISTjs are shy.

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Well I have to disagree with this :8* I don't know how you define "evil" and "shy" but the ISTps I know (possibly including myself) are not evil and the ISTjs I know are not too shy. I bet there are evil ISTps and shy ISTjs (and the other way around) but this is very bad typing method.

The ISTp I dated was at least capable of expressing his evaluations of a topic. If he felt I should know it, at least. Also, he would sometimes ask me why I felt a certain way about a topic, and actually LISTENED to me and sometimes responded in kind. If we disagreed about something, it didn't affect our relationship much.

The ISTj I dated would judge my actions/words, show it in his body stance and eyes, but would not (could not?) express it in words. He would not even listen to my explanations of why I chose such and such action. My explanations seemed to go in one ear and out the other. It's as if he'd make his judgement, and nothing in the world could penetrate through it. We lasted one stupid little disagreemeent, I was busy with a crying daughter so I couldn't immediately attempt to resolve it with him, he walked out of my world 2 minutes later. (Thankfully, as that was a very stressful relationship to maintain.)

Can someone help me with this..?
How do these two types (ISTjs and ISTps) act differently?
How can one tell them apart?
How do Beta values manifest in an ISTj? Delta values in an ISTp?

Thanks everyone.

One pisses you off. One carts you off to magical places.

(so the idea goes)

Type descriptions would be appreciated.

I sure hope no one mistakes me for an ISTJ. ew.

A good way could be to look for Se in social interactions.

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

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Originally Posted by ifmd95

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Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit

A good way could be to look for Se in social interactions.

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yeah, that's a good one. the ISTp will probably be too busy eating 10 pounds of Chicago pizza.

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And a lb of cookie dough...

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Originally Posted by FDG

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

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I would think it would be the other way around.

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Originally Posted by jessica129

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Originally Posted by FDG

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

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I would think it would be the other way around.

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Nay, beta vs delta

I agree with Jessica. Rage, rage against the social order!!

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Originally Posted by Slacker Mom

I agree with Jessica. Rage, rage against the social order!!

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Yeah, don't mistake our unwillingess to spout off how we feel about every little thing as conservative. Seems so far most ISTp's hate being thought of as followers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ifmd95

(FDG) but the ISTp is irrational and without Ne POLR. so maybe the ISTj in comparison is prone to getting stuck in "yesterday's" beta values or something. i've seen the opposite of what you're saying happen several times.

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MMM. Might be territorial differences then? I thought Te-Fi quadra values reached the peak of traditionalism when couple with Si, kind of the opposite of Fe-Ti values with Se. I mean even when an ISTp says he's rebellious he still wants to do barbecues all day and doesn't really give a shit about political overthrows, much more detached, maybe anarchist, but not really involved

whereas many istjs are into parties that have nothing really to do with reality anymore (say communist parties in the western world) etc etc

I mean I can't dispute what you have seen of course, it's just that i've seen different stuff basically

It's piss easy to tell apart an SLI and an LSI. One uses :Ti: blocked with :Se:, and the other uses :Si: blocked with :Te:. It's much more likely that you'd mistake an LSI for an SLE or vice versa than for an SLI. In the same way, you're more likely to mistake an SLI for an LSE, and vice versa, than for an LSI. They act completely differently due to their valuing different functions.

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Originally Posted by FDG

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Originally Posted by jessica129

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Originally Posted by FDG

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

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I would think it would be the other way around.

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Nay, beta vs delta

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You've never met a conservative, religiously extreme LSI?
I would find that hard to believe.

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Originally Posted by Courage

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Originally Posted by FDG

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Originally Posted by jessica129

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Originally Posted by FDG

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

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I would think it would be the other way around.

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Nay, beta vs delta

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You've never met a conservative, religiously extreme LSI?
I would find that hard to believe.

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I don't think religious extremism is generally considered conservative. They're rather pushy with their values.

LSI is more likely to be an anal asshole that will point out any logical faults right away.
SLI is more likely to not really give a damn about you or your situation, regardless of logicality.


LSI has Ne polr (beta)
SLI has Fe polr (gamma)

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Originally Posted by Courage

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Originally Posted by FDG

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Originally Posted by jessica129

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Originally Posted by FDG

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

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I would think it would be the other way around.

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Nay, beta vs delta

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You've never met a conservative, religiously extreme LSI?
I would find that hard to believe.

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Maybe he hasn't met an LSI.

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Originally Posted by Ezra

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Originally Posted by Courage

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Originally Posted by FDG

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Originally Posted by jessica129

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Originally Posted by FDG

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

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I would think it would be the other way around.

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Nay, beta vs delta

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You've never met a conservative, religiously extreme LSI?
I would find that hard to believe.

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Maybe he hasn't met an LSI.

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Extremely unlikely. In my youth wanderings (I was very social when I was 14-15-16) I have met an enormous number of them of the same age. Later, I've met more of older (adults). None are conservative in the way I personally use the word, but remember that I'm Italian and thus we may not be referring to the same concept.

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Originally Posted by ifmd95

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Originally Posted by FDG

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Originally Posted by Courage

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Originally Posted by FDG

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Originally Posted by jessica129

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Originally Posted by FDG

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

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I would think it would be the other way around.

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Nay, beta vs delta

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You've never met a conservative, religiously extreme LSI?
I would find that hard to believe.

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I don't think religious extremism is generally considered conservative. They're rather pushy with their values.

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okay see in the US in recent years that has become one of the most frequently associated concepts with conservatism. or at least the brand of conservatism that was popular in the last two elections and within the present administration. (although with their approval ratings down conservatism may be undergoing another transformation here again.) but so yeah, even if we're typing similar people, it appears the words we're describing them with have somewhat diff territorial usages.

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Ahhh ok gotcha. Here the conservatives are the moderate, middle party, whereas both extremes are considered "progressive" in their own ways, kind of, nonstationary :wink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ezra

It's piss easy to tell apart an SLI and an LSI. One uses :Ti: blocked with :Se:, and the other uses :Si: blocked with :Te:. It's much more likely that you'd mistake an LSI for an SLE or vice versa than for an SLI. In the same way, you're more likely to mistake an SLI for an LSE, and vice versa, than for an LSI. They act completely differently due to their valuing different functions.

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Ezra, could you please give real life (ish) examples of what you're writing about in your first sentence? That is, :Ti: blocked with :Se:, and :Si: blocked with :Te:

I'd like to learn the difference.

Peace

or FDG.

Thanks

Essentially, :Ti: blocked with :Se: is the LSI - Saddam Hussein is cited as an LSI. It combines the need for systematisation and categorisation, as well as rule-abidance; a result of the Ti, with a forceful, can-do energy provided by the Se. Be careful though how you take the functions. Basically Ti in an LII (INTj) would look very different to what it looks like in an LSI. Why? Because the LII's Ti is blocked with Ne, not Se. So, basically, you can't talk about Ti as a function unto itself, because it manifests itself differently in each Ti dominant.

What about the ISTp? Could someone give an example of how those fuctions manifest?

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Originally Posted by FDG

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Originally Posted by ifmd95

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Originally Posted by FDG

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Originally Posted by Courage

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Originally Posted by FDG

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Originally Posted by jessica129

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Originally Posted by FDG

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

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I would think it would be the other way around.

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Nay, beta vs delta

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You've never met a conservative, religiously extreme LSI?
I would find that hard to believe.

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I don't think religious extremism is generally considered conservative. They're rather pushy with their values.

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okay see in the US in recent years that has become one of the most frequently associated concepts with conservatism. or at least the brand of conservatism that was popular in the last two elections and within the present administration. (although with their approval ratings down conservatism may be undergoing another transformation here again.) but so yeah, even if we're typing similar people, it appears the words we're describing them with have somewhat diff territorial usages.

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Ahhh ok gotcha. Here the conservatives are the moderate, middle party, whereas both extremes are considered "progressive" in their own ways, kind of, nonstationary :wink:

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Wow, is your culture really that different from the U.S.?

I think you can always tell a conservative from their adherence to the dominant cultural paradigm. The population element that would find most in common with the U.S. conservatives is that element which doesn't want to look at things in a new way, . It's funny: whereas progressives and liberals keep a world-wide united front (a progressive caucus in one nation will have the same values as that of another), conservatives easily find themselves at war with each other across nations because of their disparate traditions and histories.

I know that's not what you were referring to though by conservativism/rebellion, however. (ISTjs always want to decline the influence of the caucus opposite theirs, whatever it is, so their future will seem brighter.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ezra

Essentially, :Ti: blocked with :Se: is the LSI - Saddam Hussein is cited as an LSI. It combines the need for systematisation and categorisation, as well as rule-abidance; a result of the Ti, with a forceful, can-do energy provided by the Se. Be careful though how you take the functions. Basically Ti in an LII (INTj) would look very different to what it looks like in an LSI. Why? Because the LII's Ti is blocked with Ne, not Se. So, basically, you can't talk about Ti as a function unto itself, because it manifests itself differently in each Ti dominant.

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I like hitta's +/- approach.

ISTjs are strict, ISTps are laid back.

Please people, I'd really like an explanation in plain English, (not socionics jargon,) about the characteristics that separate these two types, how to discern them from each other, etc.
Please.
From what I understand they VI similarly--and it seems that many people have confused these two types, as illustrated by the comments regarding "rebelliousness" earlier in the thread.
Please help me tell these two apart, by any means except socionics jargon. I.e. pictures, type descriptions, etc.

Everyone join in, please.

ISTjs: Think people who are very organized - very systematic, like everything to be "logical" but it's their own personal logic and won't necessarily make sense to you. There's a way things are "supposed" to be done and if you have an idea to do it some other, potentially better, way you are cursed as if you have suggested some incredible sin. They also seem to either want very much to follow an authority figure, or be the authority figure, so there might be some discussion of a person, or rule book, or "standard operating procedure", or that what they say goes, or something along the lines of following authority.

ISTp: Someone with a very leisured pace, who likes to work on things but likes to do them on his/her own schedule. Or really, not on a schedule, but as they feel like working. But they do like working on projects, and they like their projects to be useful in some way - to have some end result that has value. Cars, quilts, fishing, carpentry, whatever. The ISTps I know are not generally ambitious (and the ISTjs I've known have generally been at least ambitious within their own career or social circle or whatever). They only want enough money to live without having to worry, for their world to be comfortable, for everything they own to work as it should, and to not be rushed or made to do anything they aren't interested in. They might like naps, and they might like to have time to sit and do absolutely nothing.

These are very sketchy and obviously very biased, and people are not well typed by traits - they're better typed by motivations - but as you and I are the same type, my subjective descriptions might mean something to you even if they don't mean anything to anyone else.

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Originally Posted by JuJu

Please help me tell these two apart, by any means except socionics jargon. I.e. pictures, type descriptions, etc.

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Ahahaha come on, this is not a secret language, if you find something you don't understand you can look it up on the wikisocion. Type descriptions are both on the wikisocion and on this forum, in the "index" thread of the "articles" section.

A few more things to look up, other than "Se in social interactions": "Fe polr", "Fe seeking", "IP temperament", "IJ temperament" :-P
I can give you a quick translation for those, but it's gonna be totally incomplete and very dependent on my personal experience:

Se in social interactions= an ISTj might tell people to do things, at times without explaining why.
Fe polr= an ISTp might find it unpleasant to be exposed to obvious emotional manifestations, especially if they are triggered by seemingly trivial events.
Fe seeking= an ISTj will usually appreciate such manifestations.
IP temperament= an ISTp is relaxed
IJ temperament= an ISTj appears calm but tense

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Originally Posted by Slacker Mom

There's a way things are "supposed" to be done

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While your agrument for bias being useful since you two are the same type is quite valid, I have to answer to this (c:
I really can't stand people who do things in the way they are "supposed" to be done without thinking about it. If I have a system it's because I think it's the best, I won't accept another until you convince me it's better, it's not about dogmas at all.

"Ahahaha come on, this is not a secret language, if you find something you don't understand you can look it up on the wikisocion. Type descriptions are both on the wikisocion and on this forum, in the "index" thread of the "articles" section."

Sorry dude, that answer bugged me.
A) There is a Socionics jargon... I asked for English, b/c I didn't--and don't--want a rehash of theory that's been explained better elsewhere. I wanted--and still want--stories. Examples via stories help me to clarify theories.
B) I asked this question b/c I haven't found an adequate answer anywhere, including Wikisocion. (BTW dude, I've been on this forum for awhile and know where to look for info--so rather than tell me to look stuff up, please tell me an answer.)
Also, what does "calm but tense" mean?
No offense and peace.

Slacker Mom--your response really helps. Thanks.
Just a couple more questions, (for you or anyone:)
* Do these types VI similarly? What would young ppl of each type most likely wear?
* Tomorrow I'll submit a picture of a kid I know--could go either way, ISTp or ISTj. Let me know what you think.

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Originally Posted by JuJu

Sorry dude, that answer bugged me.

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No need to apologize, I don't mind :P
No seriusly, I didn't mean to be rude... I guess I shouldn't have laughed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JuJu

A) There is a Socionics jargon... I asked for English, b/c I didn't--and don't--want a rehash of theory that's been explained better elsewhere. I wanted--and still want--stories. Examples via stories help me to clarify theories.

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Using jargon is not rehashing theory... it's a quick way to point you towards the parts of the theory that are more significant in distinguishing the two types. If that is not of value to you, I apologize, I did also try to give you a few quick practical inputs. I guess I failed.

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Originally Posted by JuJu

B) I asked this question b/c I haven't found an adequate answer anywhere, including Wikisocion. (BTW dude, I've been on this forum for awhile and know where to look for info--so rather than tell me to look stuff up, please tell me an answer.)

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Yeah, I was an ass there (c: I meant you should use those sources to understand what we are saying, not look the answer up yourself.

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Originally Posted by JuJu

Also, what does "calm but tense" mean?

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English jargon? :-PPPP
"collected, composed, cool imply the absence of agitation" but "stretched tight, as a cord, fiber, etc.; drawn taut; rigid."
I took these from dictionary.com, and I honestly believe the IJ temperament entry in the wikisocion explains it.

I'm being an ass again... a practical explanation:
People sometimes tell me to "relax" but they never tell me to "calm down", while they would tell neither to an ISTp.

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Originally Posted by JuJu

Also, what does "calm but tense" mean?

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No real outward emotion, but an ISTj is likely to seem wound up tight - very alert, as if waiting to 'spring' into action. Binary actions - on or off.

My impressions of ISTps, on the other hand, is that they run on a continuum of states - languorous even.

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Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slacker Mom

There's a way things are "supposed" to be done

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While your agrument for bias being useful since you two are the same type is quite valid, I have to answer to this (c:
I really can't stand people who do things in the way they are "supposed" to be done without thinking about it. If I have a system it's because I think it's the best, I won't accept another until you convince me it's better, it's not about dogmas at all.

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Yeah, but see your system that you think is the best will become The Way. That's the point. There is no "best way" for me for a lot of things. If I try out different ways of doing things, or do something a different way because I'm bored with the usual way and want to do it differently, or whatever, it will drive an ISTj nuts. Their way is the best way, and like you said, they won't accept another way until you can convince them it's better, which would require loads of Ti, which an ENFp isn't going to be able to get together anyway.

I don't think I phrased that well. OK, your way - the way you think is best and the way I'd have to convince you otherwise - IS the way things are "supposed" to be done.

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Originally Posted by Slacker Mom

Yeah, but see your system that you think is the best will become The Way. That's the point. There is no "best way" for me for a lot of things. If I try out different ways of doing things, or do something a different way because I'm bored with the usual way and want to do it differently, or whatever, it will drive an ISTj nuts. Their way is the best way, and like you said, they won't accept another way until you can convince them it's better, which would require loads of Ti, which an ENFp isn't going to be able to get together anyway.

I don't think I phrased that well. OK, your way - the way you think is best and the way I'd have to convince you otherwise - IS the way things are "supposed" to be done.

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Sweet, I understand.

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Originally Posted by tcaudilllg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ezra

Essentially, :Ti: blocked with :Se: is the LSI - Saddam Hussein is cited as an LSI. It combines the need for systematisation and categorisation, as well as rule-abidance; a result of the Ti, with a forceful, can-do energy provided by the Se. Be careful though how you take the functions. Basically Ti in an LII (INTj) would look very different to what it looks like in an LSI. Why? Because the LII's Ti is blocked with Ne, not Se. So, basically, you can't talk about Ti as a function unto itself, because it manifests itself differently in each Ti dominant.

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I like hitta's +/- approach.

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I don't. It's over confusing things.

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Originally Posted by UDP

LSI is more likely to be an anal asshole that will point out any logical faults right away.
SLI is more likely to not really give a damn about you or your situation, regardless of logicality.

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The fuck? You have it backwards.

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Originally Posted by sssonyyy

The fuck? You have it backwards.

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Meh, I more or less renounce those statements as having any sort of significant value. I think most comments I've made before 2012, especially pre-2013, are worth being reconsidered.


LSI and SLI differ mostly by nature of their quadra values.
SLI is more likely to comment on how to be more effective or efficient at doing things, with a slant towards minimizing effort and maximizing quality. General disregard for :Fe:
LSI is more likely to comment on whether or not things fit a certain program, structure, set of ethics, or other rational framework. General disregard for :Ne:

But you can have stickler asshole SLIs, and chill LSIs.

/socionics generalizations for the ... non-win.

LSI look for emotionally varied environments...will make comments at "look how excited and lively this crowed is" look for that; an SLI at the bar is quiet and taking things in and engaging in on one on one with you :) And SLI at the lounge is relaxing in a relaxed pose while the LSI is like "yeah, let's do this!" OMG shoot me, I love LSI when they are supporting me but can't stand when they go chasing after Fe.

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Originally Posted by UDP

LSI is more likely to comment on whether or not things fit a certain program, structure, set of ethics, or other rational framework. General disregard for :Ne:

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Can you explain this some more?

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Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon

Can you explain this some more?

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How so? I said super generic things about LSI there.
I basically said this person is Ti dominant and Ne polr. ... so where do you want to go from there?

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Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon

Can you explain this some more?

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An example would be is if you talk about an idea that is not conclusive, like Socionics, the first thing that the LSI will do is say "I want to see proof of it." An LSI only wants to come to the validity of an IDEA through their own senses and intelligent logical uses, like reading a book. And, an SLI might think it's interesting.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

An example would be is if you talk about an idea that is not conclusive, like Socionics, the first thing that the LSI will do is say "I want to see proof of it." An LSI only wants to come to the validity of an IDEA through their own senses and intelligent logical uses, like reading a book. And, an SLI might think it's interesting.

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Whole Gamma quadra is LSI then, Maritsa. And Black.

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Originally Posted by UDP

How so? I said super generic things about LSI there.
I basically said this person is Ti dominant and Ne polr. ... so where do you want to go from there?

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well what's the point of just rephrasing the socionic functions?
EXAMPLES.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

An example would be is if you talk about an idea that is not conclusive, like Socionics, the first thing that the LSI will do is say "I want to see proof of it." An LSI only wants to come to the validity of an IDEA through their own senses and intelligent logical uses, like reading a book. And, an SLI might think it's interesting.

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Maritsa, thank you for interpreting my question to mean i needed an example...
But I disagree with you equating Ti with reading a book, which is more per my understanding of an embodiment of Te.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon

Maritsa, thank you for interpreting my question to mean i needed an example...
But I disagree with you equating Ti with reading a book, which is more per my understanding of an embodiment of Te.

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Actually you're kinda looking at this the wrong way; remember a Ti is the person's "own" understanding of something because they are introverted thinkers and because their internal thinking needs to be evaluated based on their own visual accord...so reading a book is not only to gather facts where the Ti person would make logical systems and conclusions but it would be also a visual thing right...static. A Te type would just view it as something that you're interested in among other dynamic things that happen in the world.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by UDP

Meh, I more or less renounce those statements as having any sort of significant value. I think most comments I've made before 2012, especially pre-2013, are worth being reconsidered.


LSI and SLI differ mostly by nature of their quadra values.
SLI is more likely to comment on how to be more effective or efficient at doing things, with a slant towards minimizing effort and maximizing quality. General disregard for :Fe:
LSI is more likely to comment on whether or not things fit a certain program, structure, set of ethics, or other rational framework. General disregard for :Ne:

But you can have stickler asshole SLIs, and chill LSIs.

/socionics generalizations for the ... non-win.

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Lol ok. I was also thinking this a super old thread when I wrote that, but I also have an SLI and LSI in my life that I love dearly and felt like both your descriptions were not doing them justice.

OK so I just have to jump in here bc I feel like ISTj/ISTp is among the least understood of all the types. I've also noticed that if you give the test to someone who does it halfheartedly, or who is a E6 phobic, in both cases they come out as ISTj or ISTp. Like people who to you are obviously Exxx, or xNxx, will somehow type as ISTj/p, and you're like wtf. I think it's bc these two on the surface are the least conspicuous, most easy to pretend you're like them if you don't really know what you are and are insecure about appearing another way.

Anyway, similarities:

-both are completely different around people they know vs. people they don't know
-both appear at first like they could care less. both are selfish assholes, but also generally liked by all maybe bc they stay neutral
-both have that really easy "cool"ness that intuitives kind of have to work at
-both hang around in casuals and are homebodies, though they can suddenly be energized and feel like roaming
-both are super independent and resist external pressure to do something they don't want to

Differences. Here I'll put a disclaimer that I think it matters which quadra/type the observer (me) is. Like since I'm beta and IEI, my descriptions may be slanted. I mean I have activity relations in one, which is great. ISTj is Fe-seeking and Ni-HA, and responding delightfully to everything I say. I have super ego relations with the other, which is difficult. My cuteness is totally hit and miss here. So there is a limit to how objective I can be.

-ISTp communicates in a direct, matter-of-fact way. Due to Fi-valuing, he will express directly how he feels about something. So a stoic ISTp may suddenly be like omggg aww that's terrible! when he sees a dead bunny, because he loves animals and that genuinely upsets him and he's not going to try and pretend otherwise to appear manly.

-ISTj communicates by provoking others and making edgy jokes. He gets that what you say may not be what you mean (Fe-valuing) and that's fine as long as you can keep it emotionally vibrant. He will make fun of the dead bunny.

-ISTp likes to gather information (Te). This is a never ending process. For this reason they are avid readers.

-ISTj stops gathering information at a certain point, and will react to new information derisively. They already know what they need to know, and new info is getting in the way of Ti.

-ISTp is welcoming of new people in a group (democratic). A new person doesn't have ties yet, so being nice will predispose them towards ISTp which will give leverage later. No force involved.

-ISTj will want to get an edge over the new person right away, esp if a Fe ego is around to give the atmosphere good vibes, then he may straight up bully. Volitional force (Se).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

Actually you're kinda looking at this the wrong way; remember a Ti is the person's "own" understanding of something because they are introverted thinkers and because their internal thinking needs to be evaluated based on their own visual accord...so reading a book is not only to gather facts where the Ti person would make logical systems and conclusions but it would be also a visual thing right...static. A Te type would just view it as something that you're interested in among other dynamic things that happen in the world.

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Ok it all made perfect sense until this part:

Quote:

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but it would be also a visual thing right...static. A Te type would just view it as something that you're interested in among other dynamic things that happen in the world.

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Can you rephrase it and explain a bit more?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sssonyyy

OK so I just have to jump in here bc I feel like ISTj/ISTp is among the least understood of all the types. I've also noticed that if you give the test to someone who does it halfheartedly, or who is a E6 phobic, in both cases they come out as ISTj or ISTp. Like people who to you are obviously Exxx, or xNxx, will somehow type as ISTj/p, and you're like wtf. I think it's bc these two on the surface are the least conspicuous, most easy to pretend you're like them if you don't really know what you are and are insecure about appearing another way.

Anyway, similarities:

-both are completely different around people they know vs. people they don't know
-both appear at first like they could care less. both are selfish assholes, but also generally liked by all maybe bc they stay neutral
-both have that really easy "cool"ness that intuitives kind of have to work at
-both hang around in casuals and are homebodies, though they can suddenly be energized and feel like roaming
-both are super independent and resist external pressure to do something they don't want to

Differences. Here I'll put a disclaimer that I think it matters which quadra/type the observer (me) is. Like since I'm beta and IEI, my descriptions may be slanted. I mean I have activity relations in one, which is great. ISTj is Fe-seeking and Ni-HA, and responding delightfully to everything I say. I have super ego relations with the other, which is difficult. My cuteness is totally hit and miss here. So there is a limit to how objective I can be.

-ISTp communicates in a direct, matter-of-fact way. Due to Fi-valuing, he will express directly how he feels about something. So a stoic ISTp may suddenly be like omggg aww that's terrible! when he sees a dead bunny, because he loves animals and that genuinely upsets him and he's not going to try and pretend otherwise to appear manly.

-ISTj communicates by provoking others and making edgy jokes. He gets that what you say may not be what you mean (Fe-valuing) and that's fine as long as you can keep it emotionally vibrant. He will make fun of the dead bunny.

-ISTp likes to gather information (Te). This is a never ending process. For this reason they are avid readers.

-ISTj stops gathering information at a certain point, and will react to new information derisively. They already know what they need to know, and new info is getting in the way of Ti.

-ISTp is welcoming of new people in a group (democratic). A new person doesn't have ties yet, so being nice will predispose them towards ISTp which will give leverage later. No force involved.

-ISTj will want to get an edge over the new person right away, esp if a Fe ego is around to give the atmosphere good vibes, then he may straight up bully. Volitional force (Se).

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This is socionics gold.

Thanks!! i actually thought it was pretty darned objective...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sssonyyy

-ISTj stops gathering information at a certain point, and will react to new information derisively. They already know what they need to know, and new info is getting in the way of Ti.

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I once had a supervisor who yelled at me and made me almost cry because I was giving him too much detail. Meanwhile I thought that information was really important, and i came out with the impression that he is a careless worker who wants to bury his head in the sand to save him some time and work.

I would not be surprised if he were a socionic ISTj. In fact, that's the type I came up with for him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon

I once had a supervisor who yelled at me and made me almost cry because I was giving him too much detail. Meanwhile I thought that information was really important, and i came out with the impression that he is a careless worker who wants to bury his head in the sand to save him some time and work.

I would not be surprised if he were a socionic ISTj. In fact, that's the type I came up with for him.

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In which case your conflicting relations do not help either. Usually ISTj is very competent though. So is ISTp, for that matter... unless your job was all about interpersonal relations.

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Originally Posted by sssonyyy

In which case your conflicting relations do not help either. Usually ISTj is very competent though. So is ISTp, for that matter... unless your job was all about interpersonal relations.

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yeah interpersonal relations is a big component of our job, but so is knowledge and efficiency.

An LSI tells you you are a stupid fucking piece of shit for asking this question.

An SLI..... they just bitch behind the scenes but, they aren't nearly as in-your-face.

Hey, you're a stupid fucking piece of shit.

Would this be one of those forum necros we discussed earlier? Holy Turn Of the Century, Batman.... 2007 thread resurrected!

LSI are homo. That's the difference.

LSIs are into martial arts, smile a lot, learn foreign languages
SLIs love routine, take drugs, smoke and work at the same time, like fat sexual partners

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Originally Posted by 1981slater

LSIs are into martial arts, smile a lot, learn foreign languages
SLIs love routine, take drugs, smoke and work at the same time, like fat sexual partners

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Wonder which one is Chuck Norris.

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Originally Posted by 1981slater

LSIs are into martial arts, smile a lot, learn foreign languages
SLIs love routine, take drugs, smoke and work at the same time, like fat sexual partners

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um... not really...

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Originally Posted by jessica129

I would think it would be the other way around.

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http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ons/icon14.png

Yes.