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Originally Posted by 1981slater
Is this typical? Do Ne types tend to see Se egos as unpleasant and/or intimidating at first, or is it more of an individual thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by jewels
And if you are bothered by Se, is it to do w opposite-quadra relations [ie an Alpha Ne might see a Gamma Se as harsh but not mind Beta Se as much, while a Delta Ne would see Beta Se as harsh but be less bothered by Gamma Se]
Ne people, what has your experience been?
yeah intimidating and unpleasant fits it. Like they won't let me have a say or won't have time for me to explain.
I don't mind Beta ST's I relate with them a good deal, usually because they have a philosophical bent that jives with my Ti and the merriness helps lol.
Gamma SF... I can live with them. I was close friends with an Se ESFp for a while. We got along very well actually. But I also made sure to never do anything Ti around her like discuss politics or socionics, because she'd just run away or get frustrated. Part of it I think was that we initially did not like eachother and I was sorta scared of her, but eventually she "accepted me" which if you wait long enough without being to much of a shit Gamma's will do.
I don't see Se as intimidating. I see it as close-minded and frustrating. Se egos almost always throw me into devil's advocate mode.
I could see that happening - if you can think of any examples that might be interesting....Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion
I don't know if you realize it, but you use language in a way that is a bit... slanted at times. Like using the word "merriness" to refer to Fe - I get that the dichotomy is "Merry" vs. "Serious," but to use it that way in a sentence implies that Fi types are not merry [in the non-socionics sense of the word], which is a bit of an unfair generalization imo.Quote:
I don't mind Beta ST's I relate with them a good deal, usually because they have a philosophical bent that jives with my Ti and the merriness helps lol.
Gamma SF... I can live with them. I was close friends with an Se ESFp for a while. We got along very well actually. But I also made sure to never do anything Ti around her like discuss politics or socionics, because she'd just run away or get frustrated. Part of it I think was that we initially did not like eachother and I was sorta scared of her, but eventually she "accepted me" which if you wait long enough without being to much of a shit Gamma's will do.
Also, to say that you can't discuss things like politics or socionics w an SEE seems harsh. Surely you don't mean that SEEs cannot discuss those things [otherwise ILIs would be quite disappointed in their duals, wouldn't they?], but maybe you could give an example to clarify - could it be that you're coming at those topics [which I promise you an SEE is well capable of understanding and discussing intelligently] from a Ti angle that is offputting to the SEE? Could you maybe give an example of a time when that's happened and how she reacted?
To me, some gammas behave in a "I've decided I don't like you, so I am going to turn the world against you" way. The worst version of :Se: + :Fi:Quote:
Originally Posted by songofsappho
You know, there are rough hoods in big cities and you can spot beta :Se: in them because there are always creeps screwing around. Most creeps are ESTps.
A non :Se: type can learn kung-fu and kick the ass of a beta/gamma quadra member. Se egos almost always put me into the Undertaker modeQuote:
Originally Posted by mn0good
I've tried to explain socionics to my SEE sis, but she was about to call the copsQuote:
Originally Posted by songofsappho
Quote:
Originally Posted by mn0good
LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by 1981slater
Devil's advocate and undertaker, eh?
I get what devil's advocate is about and I have witnessed it [and found it frustrating]. I'm less sure of what undertaker mode is all about, though....
Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by 1981slater
Yeah I mean that socionics and politics is something important to me and I come off extremely Ti when discussing those things. Its just not something that interested her. She didn't care and got frustrated so I tried to tone it down around her.
And no, Gamma's, ime, don't give a crap about political ideology and when they do its not gonna be in the form i think of it in. Maybe about "current affairs", but Gamma SF's really stay away from philosophic or theoretical politics/economics. Ya might hear one say, "Did you see what politician x did today, blah blah blah statistics blah blah blah..." But thats NOT politics. That's current affairs dealing with politicians. Rare it would be to hear an ESFp delve into dialectical materialism or the emergent nature of voluntarism.
Sorry, but they just fuckin don't. And I don't feel any remorse or hesitation in saying it.
America's popular culture!Quote:
Originally Posted by songofsappho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rk7cpG3gd8
Eh, if you say that's been your experience w SEEs, then fair enough. I just wanted to point out that I thought the way it was presented was a little... closed-minded [ironically].Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion
And as for remorse, I'm not sure where that even came from! But yeah - thanks for the responses. It's interesting to hear people's prespectives on these things.
Point of least resistance!Quote:
Originally Posted by songofsappho
Because socionics is inherently Ti?Quote:
Originally Posted by 1981slater
SEEs I know are not interested in how the universe works and relations between ideas (:Ti:), but some of them became lawyers, which is about :Te: (rules and procedures).Quote:
Originally Posted by songofsappho
From my point of view, Socionics is mainly :Ne: + :Ti:
well 1981slater is Ti...
so out of his mouth umm... yah.
And even then socionics as a theory has been dominated by Ti types.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1981slater
I think it's important to note the "from my point of view" part, bc everyone comes at socionics [or anything] from their own angle. For you it may be Ne + Ti, but for others it isn't. For me, for example, I'm interested in the practicality of socionics, whereas I really don't care much at all about the theoretical side until it becomes useful in practice.
Socionics is also a way of understanding others (:Fi: and a bit of :Fe:)...Socionics is everything, socionics is everywhere, evern in this very room. You can see it when you go to work, when you look out your window, when you go to church, when you pay your taxes...Quote:
Originally Posted by songofsappho
socionics is God.
yes, and he gives presents to all the good children of this world on December the 25thQuote:
Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion
:love:Quote:
Originally Posted by 1981slater
This is the case with my mom (SEE). She sees my Ti-obsession as completely groundless and a waste of time. It's obvious that this is because what you describe as Ti here is not important to her.Quote:
but some of them became lawyers, which is about :Te: (rules and procedures).
Understanding for the sake of understanding isn't important. I think this is a good example of Ti vs. Te valuing. I'm starting to better understand the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by songofsappho
Is this not more due to prestige and the social status associated with the profession? Law in a technical sense should really be :Ti:...rules and structure, right?. In practise though, I always picture law to be EIE territory (being a barrister that is), the ability to guide the jury to your wanted verdict.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1981slater
are you saying prestige and social status is Fe???
uh oh! round 2? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion
p.s. i don't think his first and last sentences were directly related.
lol yeah i should just shut up.
:)
I could be wrong, it just seems like that from the people I know getting into Law. There is a large EIE majority in that group. SEE does not leap out as a type that law would intrinsically attract.
But you didn't mean that was the case because Fe=prestige and status...or did you? It seemed to me like your explanation of EIEs as lawyers had nothing to do with prestige and status, but rather with being able to influence the emotional atmosphere in the name of a cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by buckland
Depending on the person, it can be scary, or frustrating, but definitely closed-minded.
as obsessed with power, self image, and statue.
To me, power is nothing to value in and of itself. I value it if and only if it's a side effect of something else that I value: intelligence, honesty, etc.
I don't understand people who gloat about being the CEO of major banks, or who work really hard for that sort of thing. I had interviews at banks and I flaked out because the work was boring to me and the only thing it had to offer was lots of money and status. And when I meet the big cheeses in these places, I'm just sort of like "<shrug> no big deal." If the person is smart, then I'll respect him. But if he got power by "playing a game" of manipulating power, I see it as an easy/not worthy way to become successful.
Oh yeah. Also power-hungry, competitive, and at work tendency to become "empire builders" and take over your job.
@OP.
Some of them have this vibe where it feels like they're constantly revving up to punch me in the face and just waiting for me to offend them. I sense their environmental awareness, and it can feel like they have a major advantage over me.
The biggest irk tends to be narrow-mindedness combined with a readiness to act on the slimmest of pretexts without fully understanding the situation, offering partial solutions and sometimes expecting a reward.
As someone who went through the North American schooling system, I've had a lot of bad experiences with them. I tend to avoid them for close relationships, but if they're mature enjoy their company as acquaintances.
Perhaps you wonder how to protect yourselves from beta :Se:. Imagine you walk into a beta hood. Be polite until they attack you. Once this happens, use the following procedure, it always works
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJUk4nbLhS0
A bit of both, but relative to SEE, mainly the influence of the atmosphere. I am certain that the prestige would be a major attractant for both types, I have even been told so, but the EIEs seem more proficient at the type of "manipulation" needed to win. This though is limited by my relative lack of :Se::Fi:s in my life, but a disproportionate number of lawyers I know are :Fe::Ni:s. Take this with a grain of salt, I am sure being conflictors with :Se::Fi: affects my perception as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirena
This thread is like talk radio...need a knife to cut through the stereotypes.:8*
Se valuers can be, maybe even have a tendency to be short sighted, aggressive, greedy, etc., but they aren't all that way. Many of them are intelligent people who are great to be around and have interesting things to talk about.
I don't really fear Se, I don't even dislike it necessarily, it's just a different language to me. Se valuers put me into a "high alert" :eek: kind of mode at first because I don't know what to expect from them. They can be unpredictable, and while I tend to think things through before doing them (if I do them at all), Se valuers tend to just go for what they want, which can throw me off. After I get to know them and as long as I'm on "their side" it's not a big deal, and often is pretty humorous to me.
I think for me the key with Se valuers is standing my ground. I absolutely despise anyone trying to force me to do something, and I let them know that if they try it on me. Usually they seem to respect that and as long as they're not trying to push me around I don't mind them.
Other than that, the only problem I tend to have with them is when they're disturbing a peaceful atmosphere. Sometimes Se types stir things up for no reason, attacking any small weakness in someone or something and turning it into a huge deal. I'm okay with it as long as it's not towards me or someone I know, but if it continues for a long time it starts to grate on my Si desires.:mad:
In summary I'll liken Se to a loaded gun: It's not necessarily a bad thing, it can be useful, but don't point it at me!
Beta Se: Having Ti makes Beta Se a lot more bearable. Usually we can connect on the Ti level and find a balance between when to use Se and when to use Ne.
Gamma Se: I agree with what 1981slater said about them turning others against you, that's the worst case scenario. Being someone who wants everyone to like me, it's a bit painful when Gamma SFs voice their dislike in a loud fashion. I know they're just as worried about my NeTi though, so we tend to just circle and back away from each other in most of that type of situation. Needless to say ISFjs and I work hard to avoid each other, but ESFps can be a lot of fun, and they're "but I want it now!" attitude can lead to some great adventures. :lol:
P.S. I added some smilies just for you, gamma SFs.
The question wasn't "what are Se ego-types objectively like." Read it again. It's how Ne types see Se-egos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana Pancakes
I'm aware, but geez it makes me want to defend them, and they sure don't need my defending them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
That's a good analogy Bp. The "loaded gun".
Beta :Se:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdZqKVcI9m8
I suspect that socionics theory may color some people's perception of :Se: so that they readily recognize negative experiences with :Se: people and ignore or downplay neutral or positive ones.
My initial response to :Se: leading types is one of increased energy and physical concentration. Interacting with them puts me in a more energetic state, even if we're just talking. I enjoy the spontaneity of SLEs and recognize it as a kind of playfulness that I can understand and relate to.
SEEs' energy isn't so readily apparent to me, and I usually have no particular response to them. They're just "there," doing their thing.
Businesslike interaction with SLEs sometimes creates a bit of distress, due to their formal-administrative approach to things and the tendency to mull over bureaucratic issues more than I would like.
Businesslike interaction with SEEs has been easier for me, due to their more personable approach that matches my own more closely. However, they have the same :Se: tendency to get bogged down repeating information that is not interesting, which I find a bit difficult to deal with.
I have had SEEs and SLEs as friends and enjoyed spending time with them, but our friendships have not been as strong or close as those with duals and activators.
A smart person who shares some of your interests is a pleasure to talk to regardless of their type.
ahaha, this is funny, but it's actually kind of true, lool (except the last part, maybe, just to be politically correct).Quote:
Originally Posted by 1981slater
That's something positive, right? I mean, dialectical materialism is probably the worst crock of shit ever thought by mankind (well, mankind is a loaded word. I'm not really sure that Hegel was an homo sapiens, more likely an algae)Quote:
That's current affairs dealing with politicians. Rare it would be to hear an ESFp delve into dialectical materialism or the emergent nature of voluntarism.
Not Ne at all, but I just think it depends heavily on the person.
I believe my father is SLE (lol, look at my type). There are times when we're just standing in line at someplace and the slightest inconvenience will set him off. I just stand there, embarrassed, asking myself why he can't just let it be. He knows I don't like when he does stuff like that so sometimes he will just look really angry but not say anything. His outbursts aggravate me sometimes more than scare me, but on the flip side he thinks I'm lazy and a bit cold, yet smart. He doesn't care that I'm reserved. As for spontaneous actions...yeah, he doesn't always think things through and just goes for it. If it isn't working, he tries for a while and tosses the plan.
My SLE friends act somewhat the same way, only I find them less abrasive since I can decide to take a break from them. Usually I'm just sitting down and one will run in wanting to do something stupid, and depending on my mood I'll join them or sit out. They fear getting into trouble FAR less than I do, since they believe they can work their way out of anything. Prolonged interaction makes me want to knock them in their teeth with some of the shit they say/do, usually when they mess with someone for no reason. Thankfully not all of them do this, but even the ones that don't seem to have too much aggression.
They aren't all that bad. As long as they aren't ruining my mood they're pretty fun to be around. Just don't take their shit, let them know you won't take their shit, and things will run more smoothly. They seem to respect you more if you can say "I'm not having that around me, not when I'm here" in a non-threatening, but firm, manner. The ones I get along best with turn their energy and drive into a positive element. If someone is shy, one will try his best to make the person feel welcome and not care all that much if they respond awkwardly. He occasionally still feels like punching random people because "he fucking looked at me funny!", but I'm just so used to it now I ignore it unless they actually plan to do it.
You are the first one. The second person is an SEE :Se:Quote:
Originally Posted by songofsappho
One of them drinks Pepsi. The other, doesn't.
This is interesting - so you feel defensive of potential weak spots around them? I could see that... do you get the feeling that they feel the same way with you?Quote:
Originally Posted by jxrtes
Thanks, Banana Pancakes - this was really interesting to read. I think the thing about Se-valuers and Ne-valuers preferring different languages is a good way to look at it. Like, you can understand each other, but you're not using each other's preferred language so it takes a bit more work to understand/empathize w the other's point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana Pancakes
Do you get the feeling Se types are trying to "push you around"? I could see that, especially w power-drunk ones [lol at the fact that it tends to be the ones lowest in the "ranking" who act like bullies - traffic cop-style]. IME it tends to be less like [healthy, sane] Se-egos bark orders and more like they just expect what they ask to be done, period, as if to not do whatever it is is just unthinkable to them. Does that sound like your experience as well?
I am the first one?Quote:
Originally Posted by 1981slater
Definitely: person AQuote:
Originally Posted by songofsappho
Ah - thanks. I agree w you about posts in this thread focusing on the negative aspects of Se, and I think it's interesting it turned out that way. I think it's true that people notice things most when they're overdone or done badly, which seems like it fits a lot of the observations here. And fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
The differences in your observations of SLEs and SEEs is something I've definitely seen - SLEs can seem [to me anyway] much more energetic and... obvious... in things they do, whereas SEEs tend to be less-so. I don't know how to word it atm, though....
Yep.Quote:
A smart person who shares some of your interests is a pleasure to talk to regardless of their type.
Do you know any SEEs? I'm curious to hear what your take on SeFi would be, since you already have a good feel for SLEs' SeTi....Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious Name
No, actually :oQuote:
Originally Posted by 1981slater
Then you are B...and you are SEE :Se:Quote:
Originally Posted by songofsappho
Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
Yeah lol, but my point was that they won't even know what it is.
Not being a dick, Marx is Ne INTj (I don't know what type Hegel is maybe Ni/Se? idk.) and his writings reflect that.
I just don't see Gamma SF's doin it, which makes sense, but also irritates me.
A PERSON IS EITHER A OR B. THERE ARE NO ALTERNATIVES AND NO GREY AREA!Quote:
Originally Posted by 1981slater
Perhaps....Quote:
...and you are SEE :Se:
If I'm using a lot of Ne, yes, I can feel their anxiety at not being able to process that as quickly. My experience has been that less mature Se-types trump up the Se in an effort to drown out the Ne. The SEEs would try to hit my Fi polr knowing full well it's my weak spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by songofsappho
If the person is a friendly SLE or SEE, I agree with the above posters that we easily relate by sharing a temperament.
lol all people are either SEE's or living in a shack :)Quote:
Originally Posted by songofsappho