ISFjs and "holding grudges"

I had a thought.

It seems that a lot of times, ISFjs are (or can be) compared with INFjs, or other types I suppose, and called unforgiving and accused of holding grudges, etc.

I suppose this might seem obvious, but I think it's the Se. Se is about physical, external, concrete reality, right? So, when someone does something, there are consequences. Sometimes those consequences are nice, sometimes they aren't. To just let it go and pretend it didn't happen is in a way ignoring Se. So ISFjs have to take what happened into account, because it is reality. Otherwise I'm not sure they'd be ISFjs.

That, combined with the static mindset, means that "this is the reality of the situation; and we have to live with it". Add to that the Fi aspect, people related, and you have the makings for what is often called "holding a grudge."

However, "good Fi" I guess you could call it, can also be concerned about making the reality right. They care about the people involved and want good to come of what is.

So, while ISFjs can hold onto reality and the consequences of decisions, they are not necessarily unforgiving or unkind. In fact, I would think that they could be quite good at knowing how and being able to shift the reality to help alleviate the consequences, or at least make them turn out better, especially for people they care about.

That's all I have for now.

Actually, it is the Fi.

Fi is the "internal statics of fields", or the "unquantifiable aspects of relationships".

When Fi is used to make judgements, the person using it will use their previous emotional "snapshot", if you will, to determine their relationship with the person they have/had an issue with. This "snapshot" follows no set of physical rules, and is, therefore, utterly a subjective reasoning based upon a split-second, memorable emotion that the Fi-user held. This strong feeling will not pass, but become an "emotional rule", so to speak, that the Fi-valuer will follow with conviction. While this doesn't have to be a feeling of hatred, or even a bad thing at all, it is memorable and unquantifiable, allowing someone who uses Fi most of the time to base their actions off of it.

This can lead to unfailing loyalty, hatred, depression, etc.; it becomes very difficult to make an Fi-base forget these emotional "rules" they have created; it would be like asking an LII to forget that trees are made of wood (very like, as a matter of fact).

The reason that ESIs tend to show "grudge-behavior", I would think, is due to Ni (as opposed to Si). Ni is the internal dynamics of fields, and Si is external; this, I think, means that while someone who values Si would percieve the physical dynamics of a relationship as it moves along (and can be objective in determining what harm a person continues to do), an Ni-valuer will percieve subjective, emotional changes of the opposing person through actions that person does as symbols, which may or may not be correct.

INFj's use Si, so they can forgive, I think, more easily during periods of lulled aggression.

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Originally Posted by Tom

Actually, it is the Fi.

Fi is the "internal statics of fields", or the "unquantifiable aspects of relationships".

When Fi is used to make judgements, the person using it will use their previous emotional "snapshot", if you will, to determine their relationship with the person they have/had an issue with. This "snapshot" follows no set of physical rules, and is, therefore, utterly a subjective reasoning based upon a split-second, memorable emotion that the Fi-user held. This strong feeling will not pass, but become an "emotional rule", so to speak, that the Fi-valuer will follow with conviction. While this doesn't have to be a feeling of hatred, or even a bad thing at all, it is memorable and unquantifiable, allowing someone who uses Fi most of the time to base their actions off of it.

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This is dead on. Fi captures the internal makeup of a connection between two people, in a holistic manner. Once it extracts those components, a set 'state' is reached, which is subject to only gradual change, while never really deviating from that initial connection.

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This can lead to unfailing loyalty, hatred, depression, etc.; it becomes very difficult to make an Fi-base forget these emotional "rules" they have created; it would be like asking an LII to forget that trees are made of wood (very like, as a matter of fact).

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Yes. Exactly.

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The reason that ESIs tend to show "grudge-behavior", I would think, is due to Ni (as opposed to Si). Ni is the internal dynamics of fields, and Si is external; this, I think, means that while someone who values Si would percieve the physical dynamics of a relationship as it moves along (and can be objective in determining what harm a person continues to do), an Ni-valuer will percieve subjective, emotional changes of the opposing person through actions that person does as symbols, which may or may not be correct.

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This is generally correct; the feedback loops definitely make for the difference. An ISFj will not only establish that integral Fi connection, but will look at the latent processes of a person (Ni). They may seem overly-definite with judgments, unwilling to see variations, etc. But it's because the Se gradients and cues are merely tips of an iceberg that denotes the underlying patterns of the person; where the Si context changes ostensibly, the Ni context never really 'changes', instead revolving around a central theme. Gammas are pretty integral and implicit overall with their judgments, albeit not as absolute, choosy and controlling as a beta or delta.

The INFj (or Ne/Si people in general) would always remain 'open' in a way. Because, as you mentioned, Si processes are observable, and as one moves along that context of activity, an array of variables manifest themselves, bearing different connotations, forms and general meanings. Ne/Si people tend to reject the more [seemingly] absolute attitude that Ni/Se valuers have; the perspective that 'there are more aspects to this situation' is a common one, where Ni/Se expresses a more 'it is what it is, regardless' outlook.

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INFj's use Si, so they can forgive, I think, more easily during periods of lulled aggression.

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Yes. They use Si; not Ni or Se. lol. Just felt like emphasizing that.

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Originally Posted by Tom

When Fi is used to make judgments, the person using it will use their previous emotional "snapshot", if you will, to determine their relationship with the person they have/had an issue with. This "snapshot" follows no set of physical rules, and is, therefore, utterly a subjective reasoning based upon a split-second, memorable emotion that the Fi-user held. This strong feeling will not pass, but become an "emotional rule", so to speak, that the Fi-valuer will follow with conviction. While this doesn't have to be a feeling of hatred, or even a bad thing at all, it is memorable and unquantifiable, allowing someone who uses Fi most of the time to base their actions off of it.

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Yeah, I think this is a good description. When someone does something to wrong me I won't hold a "grudge" in the sense that I will hold it against them forever and never forgive them or move on, but I will never forget what they did and will keep it in mind when deciding whether or not to confide in them/trust them again and it will definitely alter our relationship in my mind, although I doubt this alteration is noticeable to anyone but myself.

Edit: This doesn't mean that I will dislike the person who has wronged me forever or that I'll never forgive them or confide in them again. I have no problem forgiving someone and moving on, but somewhere in my brain there will always be the reminder of what they did and.... Blah, this is hard to explain.

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Originally Posted by Tom

Actually, it is the Fi.

Fi is the "internal statics of fields", or the "unquantifiable aspects of relationships".

When Fi is used to make judgements, the person using it will use their previous emotional "snapshot", if you will, to determine their relationship with the person they have/had an issue with. This "snapshot" follows no set of physical rules, and is, therefore, utterly a subjective reasoning based upon a split-second, memorable emotion that the Fi-user held. This strong feeling will not pass, but become an "emotional rule", so to speak, that the Fi-valuer will follow with conviction. While this doesn't have to be a feeling of hatred, or even a bad thing at all, it is memorable and unquantifiable, allowing someone who uses Fi most of the time to base their actions off of it.

This can lead to unfailing loyalty, hatred, depression, etc.; it becomes very difficult to make an Fi-base forget these emotional "rules" they have created; it would be like asking an LII to forget that trees are made of wood (very like, as a matter of fact).

The reason that ESIs tend to show "grudge-behavior", I would think, is due to Ni (as opposed to Si). Ni is the internal dynamics of fields, and Si is external; this, I think, means that while someone who values Si would percieve the physical dynamics of a relationship as it moves along (and can be objective in determining what harm a person continues to do), an Ni-valuer will percieve subjective, emotional changes of the opposing person through actions that person does as symbols, which may or may not be correct.

INFj's use Si, so they can forgive, I think, more easily during periods of lulled aggression.

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Excellent description Tom. A frustrating aspect of Fi to me as a Fi PoLR type is that those judgments and rules seem arbitrary and like an imaginary force field trying to trap me. So my reaction to that is "What gives you the right to make that judgment? What basis are you making it on?" (countering with Ti, looking for a set of explicit rules, of which Fi types have none to provide.)

And as Strrrng mentioned, the Si/Ne Ni/Se difference between the INFj and ISFj account for a kind of absolute sense of "this is just how it is" with Gammas, whereas with Deltas there's a judgment at a certain point in the Si continuum, but there's flexibility to "grow" and be "rehabilitated" out of that negative state in which you're being judged. Actually lol it kind of makes me think of the way community disciplinary measures work, particularly in schools - no wonder most are run by Deltas. Like if you write on the school bulletin board that the principal is a big fat tub of shit, usually they make you write some sort of apology letter and stay after school for a detention, as if doing that will somehow make it all better. As if once you've gone through the TeSi ostensible established procedure for "righting the bad Fi" then you're somehow off the hook. It's weird how Delta works that way. It seems like the way to change someone's Delta Fi is to go through some established TeSi external procedures that is supposed to demonstrate that you're in a different place than you were, and that your new intrinsic condition (Ne) is different from the old one.

IMO Minde and Calenwen are right here most of the others are wrong. I think most of you are misinterpreting the reasons ISFjs and INFJs have for their actions.

ISFjs are holistic perceivers. They see the whole person mirrored from single actions. It's not that they think about someone and judge them, it's that they perceive someone to be wholly worthless with Se. Fi is what makes them rethink things if you openly confront them, which is something that they do.

Example: An ISFj nurse I had not really ever talked to comes to me in the cafeteria and just flat out shouts: "Take your hat off!". I immediately take it off and apologize. Suddenly she's the warmest person ever and for the rest of the day she helps me beyond her well beyond her job description.

I think you people are mistaking "being absolutely negative and confrontational towards a person" with "judging".

A much larger problem is introduced if the ISFj is very high Se subtype and actually has quite low capacity for Fi-related forgiving.

One thing that ISFjs do is that they remember an event which triggered their impulse of confrontation, but if they didn't react, but they can't quite forgive and forget either, they end up dwelling with it, haunted by the memory, repetitively dwelling in negative thoughts and memories about a person. When meeting someone, the person may feel that they have been prejudged. But that word prejudged has nothing to do with socionic judging and nothing to do with Fi. It's the absence of that releasing Fi, the inability of the ISFj to make a genuine judging decision to be friendly towards someone that creates the situation of sincere intense dislike.

Furthermore, for most ISFjs it's standard operating procedure to be negative towards people. So another thing I've seen is that an ISFj may meet someone and be happy, but be so unused to actually liking someone that they go over the meeting in their head until they remember some little detail that they can dislike and through concentrating on that they restore the original state of confrontation. Again, that's not something personal, that's not Fi but absence of it. The Fi works to build bridges DESPITE all the bad memories.

To reiterate: ISFj- Se = the mental perceptive snapshot of a situation, concentrating on the problems more often than not
ISFj-Fi = ability to forgive, if not forget

From my experience, if the ISFj is given an opportunity to know the reason for an action in such a way that they can relate the single slighting event to a larger positive context, they become quite delightful people in most situations.

That is how it seems to me. If someone who is actually ISFj or ISTj or INFj wants to correct me, I'd be happy to read whatever you choose to comment on. I'm probably wrong about some things regarding this.

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Originally Posted by Smilingeyes

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That's how I see the situation, too. It's better to concentrate on Se, Fi, Ne; rather than the difference between Ni quadra and Si quadra. An INFj can be understood as a transitioned ISFj, an ISFj that has already forgiven "everything". (well, it'd be better to just say, concrete Fi, rather than INFj in general). When you've forgiven everything, you can concentrate better on what is usually included under the "reasonable" or "judicious" label. (it's clear why, at the peak of resolute, there does not seem to be the time or necessity to pay attention to forgivness).

In a way:

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However, "good Fi" I guess you could call it, can also be concerned about making the reality right. They care about the people involved and want good to come of what is.

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In a way, this is an ISFj becoming an INFj. (well, this is the problem of not being able to use labels such as IJ-Fi, that would be more appropriate in this situation)

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Originally Posted by Smilingeyes

IMO Minde and Calenwen are right here most of the others are wrong. I think most of you are misinterpreting the reasons ISFjs and INFJs have for their actions.

ISFjs are holistic perceivers. They see the whole person mirrored from single actions. It's not that they think about someone and judge them, it's that they perceive someone to be wholly worthless with Se. Fi is what makes them rethink things if you openly confront them, which is something that they do.

Example: An ISFj nurse I had not really ever talked to comes to me in the cafeteria and just flat out shouts: "Take your hat off!". I immediately take it off and apologize. Suddenly she's the warmest person ever and for the rest of the day she helps me beyond her well beyond her job description.

I think you people are mistaking "being absolutely negative and confrontational towards a person" with "judging".

A much larger problem is introduced if the ISFj is very high Se subtype and actually has quite low capacity for Fi-related forgiving.

One thing that ISFjs do is that they remember an event which triggered their impulse of confrontation, but if they didn't react, but they can't quite forgive and forget either, they end up dwelling with it, haunted by the memory, repetitively dwelling in negative thoughts and memories about a person. When meeting someone, the person may feel that they have been prejudged. But that word prejudged has nothing to do with socionic judging and nothing to do with Fi. It's the absence of that releasing Fi, the inability of the ISFj to make a genuine judging decision to be friendly towards someone that creates the situation of sincere intense dislike.

Furthermore, for most ISFjs it's standard operating procedure to be negative towards people. So another thing I've seen is that an ISFj may meet someone and be happy, but be so unused to actually liking someone that they go over the meeting in their head until they remember some little detail that they can dislike and through concentrating on that they restore the original state of confrontation. Again, that's not something personal, that's not Fi but absence of it. The Fi works to build bridges DESPITE all the bad memories.

To reiterate: ISFj- Se = the mental perceptive snapshot of a situation, concentrating on the problems more often than not
ISFj-Fi = ability to forgive, if not forget

From my experience, if the ISFj is given an opportunity to know the reason for an action in such a way that they can relate the single slighting event to a larger positive context, they become quite delightful people in most situations.

That is how it seems to me. If someone who is actually ISFj or ISTj or INFj wants to correct me, I'd be happy to read whatever you choose to comment on. I'm probably wrong about some things regarding this.

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You are speaking here mostly of the ISFj spectrum. But what effect does Ne have?

A word associated with Ne is "possibilities", which is what I was thinking would make INFjs more "open" and "forgiving" - less tied to what actually happened and more accepting of differences. Perhaps. Or more open to different realities (though that sounds convoluted to me :?)... Maybe a better way to put it would be more allowing of different states. (No, that still doesn't sound right...)

Fi is judging. So why couldn't it judge someone as "bad" just as well as judging them as "good" and deserving of forgiveness?

I will add that something about Tom's "snapshots" resonates with me.

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Originally Posted by Smilingeyes

IMO Minde and Calenwen are right here most of the others are wrong. I think most of you are misinterpreting the reasons ISFjs and INFJs have for their actions.

ISFjs are holistic perceivers. They see the whole person mirrored from single actions. It's not that they think about someone and judge them, it's that they perceive someone to be wholly worthless with Se. Fi is what makes them rethink things if you openly confront them, which is something that they do.

Example: An ISFj nurse I had not really ever talked to comes to me in the cafeteria and just flat out shouts: "Take your hat off!". I immediately take it off and apologize. Suddenly she's the warmest person ever and for the rest of the day she helps me beyond her well beyond her job description.

I think you people are mistaking "being absolutely negative and confrontational towards a person" with "judging".

A much larger problem is introduced if the ISFj is very high Se subtype and actually has quite low capacity for Fi-related forgiving.

One thing that ISFjs do is that they remember an event which triggered their impulse of confrontation, but if they didn't react, but they can't quite forgive and forget either, they end up dwelling with it, haunted by the memory, repetitively dwelling in negative thoughts and memories about a person. When meeting someone, the person may feel that they have been prejudged. But that word prejudged has nothing to do with socionic judging and nothing to do with Fi. It's the absence of that releasing Fi, the inability of the ISFj to make a genuine judging decision to be friendly towards someone that creates the situation of sincere intense dislike.

Furthermore, for most ISFjs it's standard operating procedure to be negative towards people. So another thing I've seen is that an ISFj may meet someone and be happy, but be so unused to actually liking someone that they go over the meeting in their head until they remember some little detail that they can dislike and through concentrating on that they restore the original state of confrontation. Again, that's not something personal, that's not Fi but absence of it. The Fi works to build bridges DESPITE all the bad memories.

To reiterate: ISFj- Se = the mental perceptive snapshot of a situation, concentrating on the problems more often than not
ISFj-Fi = ability to forgive, if not forget

From my experience, if the ISFj is given an opportunity to know the reason for an action in such a way that they can relate the single slighting event to a larger positive context, they become quite delightful people in most situations.

That is how it seems to me. If someone who is actually ISFj or ISTj or INFj wants to correct me, I'd be happy to read whatever you choose to comment on. I'm probably wrong about some things regarding this.

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Blah, blah, blah..."Trust me, I'm a doctor."

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Originally Posted by JRiddy

Blah, blah, blah..."Trust me, I'm a doctor."

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Be constructive - as I know you can be - or please don't post in my thread. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by JRiddy

Blah, blah, blah..."Trust me, I'm a doctor."

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Quoted for people's innate trust for physicians with degrees.

I wrote a response in another forum, here's the main point:

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At 16types, there seems to be a false attribution to holding a grudge with Fi. In my experience, I find it more common in the Beta and Gamma quadras. If I recall correctly, members of Gamma have mentioned that the idea of justice holds incredible importance to them personally. And if we look at periods that were markedly 'Beta', their inspiration to revolution and rebellion, I think, can easily be tied to justice but is somewhat molded into a 'greater' cause, that is, part of the whole package. I think a strong sense of justice is correlated to holding grudges. That is not to say that Alpha and Delta have a weak sense of justice but are more willing to bend the 'rules' and be lenient thus seen as more 'forgiving'.

Of course, as Minde mentioned:

"In fact, I would think that they could be quite good at knowing how and being able to shift the reality to help alleviate the consequences, or at least make them turn out better, especially for people they care about."

This would be done, I imagine, when the guilty has proven hirself improved.

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http://forums.socionics.ws/images/spacer.gif http://forums.socionics.ws/images/spacer.gif http://forums.socionics.ws/images/spacer.gif http://forums.socionics.ws/images/spacer.gif
Basically, I agree with everyone who understands that Fi is not related to holding a grudge.

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Originally Posted by Minde

You are speaking here mostly of the ISFj spectrum. But what effect does Ne have?

A word associated with Ne is "possibilities", which is what I was thinking would make INFjs more "open" and "forgiving" - less tied to what actually happened and more accepting of differences. Perhaps. Or more open to different realities (though that sounds convoluted to me :?)... Maybe a better way to put it would be more allowing of different states. (No, that still doesn't sound right...)

Fi is judging. So why couldn't it judge someone as "bad" just as well as judging them as "good" and deserving of forgiveness?

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I hope my interjection is welcomed.

I think that Fi, despite judging something about a person as 'good' or 'bad', will create a relationship regardless. For me at least, everybody has both but if the good is more prevalent, the relationship is positive; if the bad heavily outweighs the good, the relationship is negative.

Where I think Ne and Se comes to place in all of this is for an INFj, the good is weighed by the potential (this person wants to be good, not as bad as they seem, they didn't mean it, etc) while for an ISFj, the good is weighed by what has been observed and experienced (the person did this). In this perspective, one can see how INFj-Fi 'turns' ISFj-Fi and vice versa!

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Originally Posted by Tom

Originally Posted by JRiddy http://the16types.info/vbulletin/ima...s/viewpost.gif
Blah, blah, blah..."Trust me, I'm a doctor."
Quoted for people's innate trust for physicians with degrees.

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But how does that matter in this situation? Not everyone knows Smilingeyes is a physician, or even has a degree nor does he calls attention to the fact. Totally uncalled for.

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Originally Posted by tuturututu

Why is she suddenly the warmest person ever I do not know.

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Because he gave her what she wanted; he responded rightly to the way she thought things should be. My guess is she got warm fuzzies inside. I know for myself, anyway, that when I get warm fuzzies because of someone I'm more likely than not going to do some version of smothering them with affection - which often can take the form of helpful loyalty (or loyal helpfulness).

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Originally Posted by The Greeter

I hope my interjection is welcomed.

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I welcome any opinions or ideas or interjections related to the topic at hand. :)

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Originally Posted by The Greeter

But how does that matter in this situation? Not everyone knows Smilingeyes is a physician, or even has a degree nor does he calls attention to the fact. Totally uncalled for.

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Yes. Precisely.

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Originally Posted by Minde

You are speaking here mostly of the ISFj spectrum. But what effect does Ne have?

A word associated with Ne is "possibilities", which is what I was thinking would make INFjs more "open" and "forgiving" - less tied to what actually happened and more accepting of differences. Perhaps. Or more open to different realities (though that sounds convoluted to me :?)... Maybe a better way to put it would be more allowing of different states. (No, that still doesn't sound right...)

Fi is judging. So why couldn't it judge someone as "bad" just as well as judging them as "good" and deserving of forgiveness?

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Ne and Se are both ways to perceive problems. The difference theoretically is that Se is short-term, immediate concrete issues that one can face immediately. It tends to result in confrontations. Ne results in more vague, more abstract, but more final approximations. Ne observes issues that one can't confront.

Anyway, Fi is judging of relationships, and how to create them and maintain them. It is not judging of qualities. Se and Ne perceive qualities and may result in long-term negative perceptions of people. Ne perceptions are, if anything a whole lot more final, as unto judgments (though having nothing to do with socionics judging.)

I don't know of a person with high Fi who had any interest in creating a BAD relationship with anyone. As long as IxFj concentrates on their Fi they seem interested in keeping up and finding ways to advance a relationship, despite issues.

For example, in this thread jriddy did something that was perceived by Minde as not good but she found a way to approach jriddy and attempt to find a constructive solution. If jriddy continues to demonstrate qualities and actions that Minde finds requiring correction, it will become more difficult to maintain such a relationship and if Minde's attempts continue to result in nothing good, Ne will start to suggest that there may be something deeply wrong with jriddy and it's just not a good idea to have any kind of a relationship with him at all, a sort of final silent giving up. (Though sometimes this giving up is not quite so silent, sometimes it's a vocal cry of desperation, and even then it may not be quite so final, if the state of Fi is restored.)

Anyway, the judging of objects is Te and Fe. It tends to be ENFjs who are most known for their fiery rhetoric against individuals or groups that they find to be completely evil and worthy of their ire. While I don't think an INFj or ISFj is necessarily incapable of doing the same thing, I don't see how they would have any use for Fe given their lifestyles.

Also, it causes ME no problem to JUDGE jriddy with Te, DESPITE that I PERCEIVED that what he said was kind of funny.

In relation to that I'd like to note that the person known on this forum for bannings is ExTj. I OTOH didn't even put jriddy on ignore though it might be that I should have.

Again, quite willing to take criticism.

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Originally Posted by Smilingeyes

Ne and Se are both ways to perceive problems. The difference theoretically is that Se is short-term, immediate concrete issues that one can face immediately. It tends to result in confrontations. Ne results in more vague, more abstract, but more final approximations. Ne observes issues that one can't confront.

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Why more final?

(Thank you for answering my questions, by the way.)

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Originally Posted by Smilingeyes

For example, in this thread jriddy did something that was perceived by Minde as not good but she found a way to approach jriddy and attempt to find a constructive solution. If jriddy continues to demonstrate qualities and actions that Minde finds requiring correction, it will become more difficult to maintain such a relationship and if Minde's attempts continue to result in nothing good, Ne will start to suggest that there may be something deeply wrong with jriddy and it's just not a good idea to have any kind of a relationship with him at all, a sort of final silent giving up. (Though sometimes this giving up is not quite so silent, sometimes it's a vocal cry of desperation, and even then it may not be quite so final, if the state of Fi is restored.)

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That is basically correct in terms of the process. (A not-directly-related side note stemming from a separate conversation: BTW, Tom, this here is a good example of tying the theory closely to practice. This is the kind of thing I look for when someone is explaining something theoretical to me - an example of how it would actually work. That way it can be cross-checked with reality.)

And, for the record, what I ended up saying was a bit more toned down (and hopefully diplomatic) than my initial reaction, which was basically --> :mad:

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Originally Posted by Smilingeyes

Also, it causes ME no problem to JUDGE jriddy with Te, DESPITE that I PERCEIVED that what he said was kind of funny.

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To be honest, I was mainly upset for your sake, though I actually would like to keep things relatively on-topic. If you don't mind it, however, then I will try not to do so either, not on a personal level, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Smilingeyes

Again, quite willing to take criticism.

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That makes me quite happy.

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Originally Posted by Minde

I had a thought.

It seems that a lot of times, ISFjs are (or can be) compared with INFjs, or other types I suppose, and called unforgiving and accused of holding grudges, etc.

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Going to put out a few points here. I'm not sure if I will digress too much into the theory part - it seems to be covered somewhat (and I'm kinda getting a bit bored with theory aspects of socionics just now.) but I might do...as an irrational dynamic type I reserve that right ;)

First of all, you are looking at ISFj's and INFj's holding grudges. This reminded me of something I had posted a few months ago. In regards to this. I thought it may be useful to you. Ritella also commented on it, and being an INFj herself, I think it may be useful:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...4&postcount=40

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...1&postcount=41

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essentially (from the above two posts: )

Originally posted by Cyclops

I find INFj's are more easier to forgive you, and ISFj's can hold grudges for longer. But you're more likely to know an ISFj is annoyed.

Originally posted by Ritella

Yes.

Also, maybe it depends on the context. I think INFJs have a better idea of what is "profitable/beneficial" (being intuiters), so they may come across as more head strong in discussions about what to implement.
ISFJs, OTOH, have a better idea of how to actually get something done (and stick to it), so they may come across as more head strong in the actual implementation.

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Originally Posted by Minde

I suppose this might seem obvious, but I think it's the Se. Se is about physical, external, concrete reality, right? So, when someone does something, there are consequences. Sometimes those consequences are nice, sometimes they aren't. To just let it go and pretend it didn't happen is in a way ignoring Se. So ISFjs have to take what happened into account, because it is reality. Otherwise I'm not sure they'd be ISFjs.

That, combined with the static mindset, means that "this is the reality of the situation; and we have to live with it". Add to that the Fi aspect, people related, and you have the makings for what is often called "holding a grudge."

However, "good Fi" I guess you could call it, can also be concerned about making the reality right. They care about the people involved and want good to come of what is.

So, while ISFjs can hold onto reality and the consequences of decisions, they are not necessarily unforgiving or unkind. In fact, I would think that they could be quite good at knowing how and being able to shift the reality to help alleviate the consequences, or at least make them turn out better, especially for people they care about.

That's all I have for now

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Let's look at some of the 'socionics' behind it :-)

What does Fi function tend to do/display itself?
It:

-describes one's feelings and attitudes toward things and people
-influences on feelings
-feelings
-describing relationships between people as a constant factor
-describing psychological distance
- links (between people)
- evaluations that include oaths or insults
- constant traits; personality and character traits
- evaluating people's behavior

DOMINANT FIELDS OF ACTIVITY AND CONVERSATION:
- relationships between people
- evaluating people (personality and character traits) and their deeds and conduct
- evaluating the motives behind behavior
- empathy; the ability to feel what others feel and understand their motives

In short, for Se, one aspect of Se is power and energy which can manifest as struggle and resistance. So I would say that it is easier for ISFj's to hold a grudge - in this respect their willpower is stronger that they can see it through. (Where an aspect of Ne is to realise possibilities.)

Anyway. As I understand it (and in my experience) Delta types typically tend to be kind hearted at least in comparison to Beta/Gamma, so it is perhaps more difficult for them to hold grudges: It's generally easier for them to forgive.

Not to mention that Delta NF's tend to try to give people (individuals) the benefit of the doubt (where as Beta NF's tend to give ideologies the benefit of the doubt.)

My experience of Se is that one way it manifests is that it can be quite good at keeping "putting the boot in" when a person is down.

And my experience of ISFj's is that they believe people should be punished for their wrong doings. This sort of punishment in my experience tends to be more severe than an INFj's version of punishment (who may just ignore you until you apologise, or at least an apology which is genuine). An ISFj are more likely to believe in more severe punishments (like cutting you off completey - I have observed this with an ISFj and someone else IRL) And an extreme could well be the belief capital punishment for instance. (Where as an INFj - generally speaking of course - would tend to prefer the person is rehabilitated with the hope they can integrate into society again some point in the future.) - belief in the individual.

My brothers wife is an ISFj. I see what looks to me a certain ruthlessness that can manifest in her in comparison to my friend who is an INFj. (I'd rather not give examples if that's OK.) So yeah I think this comes through from their value judgements into Se, among other things stated. (Which is not to say she isn't a 'good' person, because I believe she is and I like her very much.)

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Also, on the subject of holding grudges, I don't know if it's entirely fair to label a whole type with something, but I do think the above patterns emerge (and it's what I've seen.)

For a better look at the subject in general, I recommend this:

(A grudge is a deep seated feeling of resentment or rancour.)

And can be placed along a spectrum such as Spectrum

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Related stuff:

Why is holding a grudge heavy?

"Holding a grudge feels heavy because it takes so much work to maintain it. You have to think about it every so often, remember why you still have it, bring up feelings of grudge-ness (?), make yourself feel mad...Oh yes, it takes a lot of work to keep a grudge alive!

And the usual problem with most grudges is that you can't do anything about them but call them back into your mind. And the longer you keep them, the more likely they are to rot in your mind and affect other feelings and other memories as well, until before you know it your entire attitude is one of grudge-keeping, anger, resentment...not to mention that you can't do anything to change anything, which makes it even worse!"

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Summary

Wow I've written a lot. Basically, holding grudges does not appear to be generally healthy. However someone strong in Se is going to have the willpower and energy to be able to maintain the grudge better than someone with weak Se. So an ISFj has the capacity (in terms of socionics) to hold a grudge for longer than an INFj.

(I've put a few things in here, it seems your question was a little open ended so I've typed a few more things that a specific answer. Seems you are seeking knowledge on it or the subject in general.)

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How can they perceive someone to be wholly worthless with Se. Fi is their judging function(which judges is something good or bad). Fi is the one who tells them that it's worthless. Se just tells them what's happening infront of them with no judgement involved. Nor is it good nor bad, it just happens.

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The qualities of objects are always extrovert functions. Fi can't judge whether something is good or bad. Se can. Ne can. Fe can. Te can. Fi can judge what kind of a relationship one has with a subject and how to mold it.

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Of course, as it is the Fi what makes them to judge you bad(or good) in the first place.

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See above.

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So basically, she comes to you in the cafeteria, admeasures you using mainly her Se, perceives that your hat is on your head which is bad in her Fi-system-of-value-judgements, then she blurts on you to take your hat off. (Why she blurts on you immediately I do not know, maybe being tactical has something to do with it). So now your hat is taken, she scans you again and sees your head being naked. And now everything is OK because that's good in her Fi-system-of-value-judgements. Why is she suddenly the warmest person ever I do not know. Maybe being tactical has something to do with it.

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It seems to me that you are advocating that the person has a deep-seated valuesystem against hats in cafeterias. I am arguing that she just had a knee-jerk reaction towards something that she disliked. I think my choice is more likely. Anyway, I don't think that the kind of structure that you are advocating is completely impossible, I just think it is quite a bit rarer than the knee-jerk reaction. And anyway, the kind of thing you're suggesting takes a significant amount of time to happen. She would've had to spend a while really thinking about how to correct her relationship with people with hats and decided that the best choice is to attack them on the spot. Admittedly, possible, but I don't think that's likely.

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OK, but bear in mind that Fi isn't just forgiving, cupcakes and naptimes. It can have it's ugly face also(which rarely, if almost never, appears ugly to the person who is using it).

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It has far more consistent weak and not so nice effects than the one you're stressing here. But I think those qualities are beyond the scope of this conversation.

......


Pretty much agreeing with Cyclops on most things. There is something that I'd like to point out about his message but can't due to prior obligations towards an involved person.

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Originally Posted by Minde

Be constructive - as I know you can be - or please don't post in my thread. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Tom

Quoted for people's innate trust for physicians with degrees.

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Originally Posted by The Greeter

But how does that matter in this situation? Not everyone knows Smilingeyes is a physician, or even has a degree nor does he calls attention to the fact. Totally uncalled for.

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*Experimental data received*

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Originally Posted by Smilingeyes

Ne and Se are both ways to perceive problems. The difference theoretically is that Se is short-term, immediate concrete issues that one can face immediately. It tends to result in confrontations. Ne results in more vague, more abstract, but more final approximations. Ne observes issues that one can't confront.

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Hmm...this seems like an interesting way to describe Ne and Se, albeit from a very Te perspective.

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Originally Posted by Vagrant Pterodactyl

Anyway, Fi is judging of relationships, and how to create them and maintain them. It is not judging of qualities. Se and Ne perceive qualities and may result in long-term negative perceptions of people. Ne perceptions are, if anything a whole lot more final, as unto judgments (though having nothing to do with socionics judging.)

I don't know of a person with high Fi who had any interest in creating a BAD relationship with anyone. As long as IxFj concentrates on their Fi they seem interested in keeping up and finding ways to advance a relationship, despite issues.

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I'm not sure about Ne perceptions being all that "final." If anything, I would think that would have to do more with temperament than Ne vs. Se. In fact, being an Fe-seeking Ne type I feel makes me inclined to see Ne data as the "access points" for inner change.

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Originally Posted by Why does your avatar guy look so sad?

For example, in this thread jriddy did something that was perceived by Minde as not good but she found a way to approach jriddy and attempt to find a constructive solution. If jriddy continues to demonstrate qualities and actions that Minde finds requiring correction, it will become more difficult to maintain such a relationship and if Minde's attempts continue to result in nothing good, Ne will start to suggest that there may be something deeply wrong with jriddy and it's just not a good idea to have any kind of a relationship with him at all, a sort of final silent giving up. (Though sometimes this giving up is not quite so silent, sometimes it's a vocal cry of desperation, and even then it may not be quite so final, if the state of Fi is restored.)

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Is it Ne that would suggest that? Because most Alpha Ne types probably would not regard my levity as indicative of a deficiency of character or anything like that. In fact, not taking things too seriously tends to endear me to other alphas more often than not it would seem. Contrastingly, I have found that my natural personality really bothers most Fi-IxFjs. ISFjs seem to mostly avoid me, and I them. Fi-INFjs, on the other hand, try to "correct" me, which I find to be highly moralizing and presumptuous even when I try to understand that they have the best of intentions. At my last place of work, my Fi-INFj boss used to harp on me about "dependability and hard work" in a tone that I found to be quite condescending and for reasons that made no sense to me. It's not that I think that he was holding a grudge so much as he was unable to trust me as he was expecting my more ostensible behavior (Te) to bely inner qualities (Ne) that allowed him to trust me (Fi).

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Originally Posted by Dr Feel-good

Anyway, the judging of objects is Te and Fe. It tends to be ENFjs who are most known for their fiery rhetoric against individuals or groups that they find to be completely evil and worthy of their ire. While I don't think an INFj or ISFj is necessarily incapable of doing the same thing, I don't see how they would have any use for Fe given their lifestyles.

Also, it causes ME no problem to JUDGE jriddy with Te, DESPITE that I PERCEIVED that what he said was kind of funny.

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Judge away. I can take it. Who knows, I might find it to be quite a turn on. ;) I do hope you understand that I mean no personal offense. Frankly, I can't trust people who can't take a joke.

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Originally Posted by Sausage Biscuits

In relation to that I'd like to note that the person known on this forum for bannings is ExTj. I OTOH didn't even put jriddy on ignore though it might be that I should have.

Again, quite willing to take criticism.

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Thanks for not putting me on ignore. I like to get all productive about 2-3 times per moon cycle.

Hugs and Kisses,

Riddy

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Originally Posted by tuturututu

How can they perceive someone to be wholly worthless with Se. Fi is their judging function(which judges is something good or bad). Fi is the one who tells them that it's worthless. Se just tells them what's happening infront of them with no judgement involved. Nor is it good nor bad, it just happens.

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I don't think that just because Fi is a "judging" function, that it is the one which makes the determinations of good/bad, worth, etc. Because you have too look at its operational nature; not its title. Fi (like Ti) is about invariant relations between objects; it is implicit and more immutable than not (as it establishes internal 'cores' of sorts). I would actually expect Se to be more prone to assessing someone's worth (similar with Ne), because it is a function that deals with forms, content, and properties of discrete entities. (unlike Ne), the way it registers data (not assesses), is by gauging immediately observable qualities about the thing at hand; like holding a ball in your hand and judging its latent 'physical' attributes. This type of understanding is very concrete, with a preference for past experience, rather than potential for different contexts. Where Fi comes in, is in determining the subject's internal connection with the given person/object. "This is who they are, this is who I am, and they combine like this" -- an internal state is reached, thus you know what the 'nature' of that relation is. So, Ne and Se are about the properties, while Ti and Fi will assess the relationships.

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Of course, as it is the Fi what makes them to judge you bad(or good) in the first place.

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Not really. Anyone can judge good or bad; that is too general an idea to be attributed solely to one function. The functional preferences will simply color one's determination of these qualities.

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Originally Posted by The Greeter

I think that Fi, despite judging something about a person as 'good' or 'bad', will create a relationship regardless. For me at least, everybody has both but if the good is more prevalent, the relationship is positive; if the bad heavily outweighs the good, the relationship is negative.

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That makes decent sense.

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Where I think Ne and Se comes to place in all of this is for an INFj, the good is weighed by the potential (this person wants to be good, not as bad as they seem, they didn't mean it, etc) while for an ISFj, the good is weighed by what has been observed and experienced (the person did this). In this perspective, one can see how INFj-Fi 'turns' ISFj-Fi and vice versa!

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This is exactly right. INFjs will always see more latent potential in people, which can possibly be brought out in a new context. Whereas ISFjs are much more definite in their assessments of people; maybe less broad in their appraisals, but what they do conclude is always very reliable information.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

In short, for Se, one aspect of Se is power and energy which can manifest as struggle and resistance. So I would say that it is easier for ISFj's to hold a grudge - in this respect their willpower is stronger that they can see it through. (Where an aspect of Ne is to realise possibilities.)

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While I am hesitant to attribute things like willpower to Se, I think this idea is generally valid. Since an ISFjs assessment of someone will be based off of concrete qualities derived from past experience, and assimilated into an implicit connection between them, I see their judgments as being much more peremptory, and thus, rendering them much less likely to care about changing their views on someone (i.e. if someone does something and they decide the person is 'bad', they will just cut them off; only consistent experience can alter this judgment). So, I think that is how they can seem to hold onto things for longer -- simply because they don't care about potential; what is real has been manifested.

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Anyway. As I understand it (and in my experience) Delta types typically tend to be kind hearted at least in comparison to Beta/Gamma, so it is perhaps more difficult for them to hold grudges: It's generally easier for them to forgive.

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I tend to disagree. They may be more open to variations of peoples' qualities, growth, etc. But I don't think they're friendly; they can be pretty vindictive, underneath the calm exteriors. They appear to have 'silent hierarchies' at times, where, while they will assess a person's potential with Ne, they will still have an implicit judgment of 'where they fit' (Fi), which is concomitant to their ostensible behavior and accordance to 'proper' action (Si context and Te processes).

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Not to mention that Delta NF's tend to try to give people (individuals) the benefit of the doubt (where as Beta NF's tend to give ideologies the benefit of the doubt.)

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This is correct, and a very interesting comparison. This is EXACTLY how I am with ideologies, and why I believe I can never be very certain of things. The internal trends and processes (NiFe) are crystal clear to me, while the actual nature of the things (Se) and where they 'really fit' (explicitly - Ti) is a bit more scattered, so more often than not, I find myself unable to draw any definite conclusion. I would think delta NF's would obviously see the internal properties and relations of and between people, and notice that the ostensible processes which should be accorded with (TeSi) can be affected by these qualities, so a final judgment on what a person 'is', is unlikely, only because those 'states' shift to balance out the processes.

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My experience of Se is that one way it manifests is that it can be quite good at keeping "putting the boot in" when a person is down.

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There's probably something to this. Se wants to see your concrete, tangible worth; it gauges you to see if you can 'move' effectively, in a sense. So, if you're down, it may keep 'putting the boot down' because it believes that is necessary to determine what latent physical qualities you harbor. With betas, this takes an almost callous turn, because these concrete qualities need to be structured within the hierarchy, so if you "pussy out" you may simply be eliminated (woohoo mafia).

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Originally Posted by JRiddy

Hmm...this seems like an interesting way to describe Ne and Se, albeit from a very Te perspective.

I'm not sure about Ne perceptions being all that "final." If anything, I would think that would have to do more with temperament than Ne vs. Se. In fact, being an Fe-seeking Ne type I feel makes me inclined to see Ne data as the "access points" for inner change.

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My description of Ne and Se was correct to my knowledge only in so far as it relates to the IJ temperament. For ENTps I would rather call Ne ephemeral, flighty and glorious and Se as brutal, intense and impactful... amongst other things.

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Is it Ne that would suggest that? Because most Alpha Ne types probably would not regard my levity as indicative of a deficiency of character or anything like that. In fact, not taking things too seriously tends to endear me to other alphas more often than not it would seem. Contrastingly, I have found that my natural personality really bothers most Fi-IxFjs. ISFjs seem to mostly avoid me, and I them. Fi-INFjs, on the other hand, try to "correct" me, which I find to be highly moralizing and presumptuous even when I try to understand that they have the best of intentions. At my last place of work, my Fi-INFj boss used to harp on me about "dependability and hard work" in a tone that I found to be quite condescending and for reasons that made no sense to me. It's not that I think that he was holding a grudge so much as he was unable to trust me as he was expecting my more ostensible behavior (Te) to bely inner qualities (Ne) that allowed him to trust me (Fi).

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I agree with all of this. My prior comment causes no paradox with this. Both are true as far as I know.

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Judge away. I can take it. Who knows, I might find it to be quite a turn on. ;) I do hope you understand that I mean no personal offense. Frankly, I can't trust people who can't take a joke.

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Were I to meet you face to face, I'd take a joke quite easily. I'd probably like you a lot more in person. I've worked for two ENTp bosses and enjoyed both of them. Anyway, thanks, I really appreciate what you did here. I feel like I owe you one ( a small one, but nevertheless).

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Thanks for not putting me on ignore. I like to get all productive about 2-3 times per moon cycle.

Hugs and Kisses,

Riddy

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...

LOL@Vagrant Pterodactyl

It's a shingouz. Look it up, you'll find something good.

@Why does your avatar guy look so sad?

To cancel out my shiny happy people name.

@Dr Feel-good

I thought you would've chosen Strangelove.

@Sausage Biscuits

WTF? Anyway, thanks and have a good one.

Sausage Biscuits

An ESI just spent 20+ minutes talking to me about something that is still bothering him.

Basically, he feels like it is to the point where "there's nothing more he can do", and "It's basically up to the other person".

I think to some extent, but :Fi: dominants are that way, when they get into grudge mode or potential grudge mode, they sort of sit back and wait for the other person to make their move - to put more information into things. They see the other person as responsible for creating new interactions, generating more data for them to interpret.

Back to him, though, he basically has described a few key events that are very significant to him. Particularly, in this case, there is one incident that changed the tide on how he thought about someone. Since that time, he's felt adversely about the person. He hasn't totally cut the person off yet, but, he's at the point where he firmly feels like it is up to the other person to apologize or otherwise.

He also has said things like "well, if they ever need anything from me down the road, forget them". Etc.

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Originally Posted by The Greeter

Where I think Ne and Se comes to place in all of this is for an INFj, the good is weighed by the potential (this person wants to be good, not as bad as they seem, they didn't mean it, etc) while for an ISFj, the good is weighed by what has been observed and experienced (the person did this). In this perspective, one can see how INFj-Fi 'turns' ISFj-Fi and vice versa!

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I like this. Well said.

Yeah... can you guys over-analyze things any more further? A grudge is a grudge... there's not much more deeper meaning than that. Almost everyone holds grudges.

Although, I would say that IXFXs in general hold grudges a lot. Particularly INFXs, but I don't really know any ISFjs. Well, let's just say that they can be petty and punitive ;). They are the silent fumers.

This is related to Se perceiving things "as they are", weak Ni perceiving only what has been + Ne PoLR shortcoming in visualizing how things "could be" changed and improved. Like calenwen wrote, it's not that ISFjs hold grudges but that they don't always know how they can change and improve things from that point on: this has happened and now it's a fact of my life. INFj reaction is different in that this will try to say something that has the potential of improving the relationship.

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... [for] an example of ESI Ne PoLR works live, read the OP to this thread. There is a lot of dwelling on Ni and Fi, ethical analysis of past actions, without considering the positive future potential.

ESI (Ne PoLR): This is what has happened, this is my past. It was full of mistakes and personal failings. This is where I am now. What will happen from this point on makes me feel fearful and apprehensive (it will disturb my present stable state).
ILE (lead Ne): Don't get stuck on the past - instead think about all the positive potential that your present holds! Think about things that could happen and how your situation could change.
ESI: [feels awkward because he/she cannot lucidly conceptualize it, and edges towards the exit]

I think Ne PoLR is best described as an inability to visualize and describe all the "could be's" and "might be's" and a deep running insecurity when the ESI/LSI gets pulled out into this zone.

The difference between LSI and ESI Ne PoLRs is that ESI doesn't consider positive future potential while the LSI doesn't consider negative potential. Thus ESI runs him/herself into a corner and begins complaining about not seeing a positive future, while the LSI keeps running around making mistakes and getting bruises from life, and also complains about how life is bringing him down.

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Mmm, I have a question. Maybe @Maritsa can help.

A problem I have myself is that I am prone to holding grudges. I'm not sure if this relates to what's been said in the thread, but I do try my hardest to not hold a grudge against someone.
I usually go by the phrase "Forgive but never forget," because quite literally, I can't forget.

If someone wrongs me once or turns me off, it is hard for me to look past it and to forget it. I can remain civil in interaction with these people, and truly try the hardest I can to forgive them,
but my brain will always send me snapshots/memories of what that person did to me that turned me off. It just happens naturally and there is nothing I can do to control these flashbacks
from coming back.

So essentially I will forgive these people and engage in conversation cordially but will have a hard time looking past what they have done to me, secretly.

Is this in relation to Fi in IXFj?

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Originally Posted by Pink

Mmm, I have a question. Maybe @Maritsa can help.

A problem I have myself is that I am prone to holding grudges. I'm not sure if this relates to what's been said in the thread, but I do try my hardest to not hold a grudge against someone.
I usually go by the phrase "Forgive but never forget," because quite literally, I can't forget.

If someone wrongs me once or turns me off, it is hard for me to look past it and to forget it. I can remain civil in interaction with these people, and truly try the hardest I can to forgive them,
but my brain will always send me snapshots/memories of what that person did to me that turned me off. It just happens naturally and there is nothing I can do to control these flashbacks
from coming back.

So essentially I will forgive these people and engage in conversation cordially but will have a hard time looking past what they have done to me, secretly.

Is this in relation to Fi in IXFj?

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So emotional vengefulness is: throwing a fit and hitting the target where it hurts them the most. IEI does this. I don't know honestly if what I've said has hurt an LSE before


IEI gives more demands than an EII would.

EII don't use cruel sarcasm as a means of mocking or playing around with people and IEI uses this quite often. Some people are unaware of that because they are not programed to view people as being cruel hence the LSE is programed to EII ethics of not using cruel sarcasm as a means of getting back, but because they are unaware of it they don't see it working so I guess it doesn't matter much.

Some sayings that hurt someone who has ethics of relations in their suggestive block are "You're such a cruel and callous person. This is why you're not liked by anyone." Because they want to be liked by people and have or dream of having deep emotional relationships.

"Here, truly, how to be stupid not to realize that on you being bullied? One is already making fun of him and convinces intellectual limitations of his partner. However, the fact that the essence of the fun of not captured Stirlitz - it is also quite natural: as in this case was conducted too thin and accurate sniper psychological game. "

I believe that is related to your Ni. I've read many situations where IEI has a hard time letting go and sometimes actively engages in blackmail and other revenge schemes. Everyone gets hurt and has moments of these thoughts. I don't see EII moving in action past saying some words of regret. I do have moments of Ni recollection of the past event but EII are programmed to be gentle. That is what kills out vengeful actions. Because EII want emotional stability they will crawl back to somewhere comfortable and loving. I know when I suffered the lies and manipulation of the previous relationship that I had I wanted all his cruel and ugly friends to crawl back in the same hole as him as to LEAVE ME ALONE so that I could brush the emotions off and learn to heal myself and move on. Find a pleasant and comforting place. I didn't want to use any measure of revenge or vengefulness, blackmail or elaborate schemes, those things only create more dramatic emotions in my opinion also they are wrong morally as well as destructive to the very concept within ourselves that we call LOVE. Other than getting my stuff back, which I didn't sadly. But I can recreate what I've lost and have something nice for myself.

Fi is orientation to preserve the norms and ethics of relations. As an Fi I don't have to have a relationship with someone who is not nice in a place just because I'm in that place. That's not fair to anyone. Everyone else needs to be nice too, in conjunction.

Ethics of relations in Delta has moral implications and guidelines like: no one has the right to speculate on their weaknesses and play on someone else's generosity. (AKA don't take advantage of someone); everyone pays according to his deeds, not by his claims.

@yeves, I can categorically confirm the following...

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... [for] an example of ESI Ne PoLR works live, read the OP to this thread. There is a lot of dwelling on Ni and Fi, ethical analysis of past actions, without considering the positive future potential.

ESI (Ne PoLR): This is what has happened, this is my past. It was full of mistakes and personal failings. This is where I am now. What will happen from this point on makes me feel fearful and apprehensive (it will disturb my present stable state).
ILE (lead Ne): Don't get stuck on the past - instead think about all the positive potential that your present holds! Think about things that could happen and how your situation could change.
ESI: [feels awkward because he/she cannot lucidly conceptualize it, and edges towards the exit]

I think Ne PoLR is best described as an inability to visualize and describe all the "could be's" and "might be's" and a deep running insecurity when the ESI/LSI gets pulled out into this zone.

The difference between LSI and ESI Ne PoLRs is that ESI doesn't consider positive future potential while the LSI doesn't consider negative potential. Thus ESI runs him/herself into a corner and begins complaining about not seeing a positive future, while the LSI keeps running around making mistakes and getting bruises from life, and also complains about how life is bringing him down.

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Where the hell was all this when I was trying to type myself :o

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Originally Posted by Resonare

My depression is based on my prospective future. I don't want to elicit sympathy from anyone but I have a condition which is not too much of a problem right now but will be one day and I have already resolved myself to end it at that time. I've spent 3 years of my early 20s in what many in this age would consider isolation because of this. I was born different and every time I accept my abnomalities a new one appears as if life itself enjoys spiting me.

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Originally Posted by Resonare

Yep, I would say that I tend to live in the near-future and that I only think about the negative long-term future possibilities and I generally ignore the positive. If I see a long-term negative future prospect and if I can't prevent it then it just makes me depressed and unwilling to participate in life until it has passed. Unfortunately for me, what I'm dealing with won't come to pass for a long time and I find myself unable to live my life in this time between now and then, with "then" most likely being the end. This is why I wanted to make it clear that I'm depressed and my type may very well likely not be what it appears to be on the surface.

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Originally Posted by Pink

So essentially I will forgive these people and engage in conversation cordially but will have a hard time looking past what they have done to me, secretly.

Is this in relation to Fi in IXFj?

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I'm going to assume you are IEI and I think this actually has to do with Se seeking and Fi demonstrative. Your valued 1D Se makes you secretly want to get back at people, but you find it much more natural to act through your 4D Fi and maintain good relations with people even though deep down this is not something you care about. It is exactly in these sort of situations that SLEs complement IEIs as they will take it upon themselves to kick whoever's sorry ass upset the IEI without giving a second thought about the wrong doings of his actions. If SLE lands in hot water doing so IEI can use their strong ethics to smooth out the situation.

Actually I think I have an idea for a new thread regarding the relationship between the demonstrative and dual seeking amongst other types.

Holy moly is this a trip down memory lane. I really miss some people.

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Originally Posted by Minde

........ but I think it's the Se...............

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Minde,

Partially, ISFj is a moralist (Fi) with a reductionist (Se) view of the world. They feel that their behaviour and ways are best, and want to be treated as they would treat others. When they aren't, they look at the maltreatment from a simple, basic, physical perspective. They do not look at extenuating circumstances or any global issues; they were simply hurt. The problem is that they will not initiate 'clearing the air' and other parties may not know the ISFj is hurt. It isn't that the ISFj wants to hold a grudge, it's likely that s/he is in stasis with hurt feelings and it may appear like a grudge is being held. The ISFj needs to be led out of the protective cocoon that s/he has created; s/he needs the holistic situation explained in words that have meaning to an ISFj, which is the reductionist view. ENTj is good at doing just that.......

a.k.a. I/O

I hold grudges but I don't really ~hold~ them. I can be totally in love with someone and be nice to them but talk shit about them and find ways to fuck them over at the same time. The grudgey feelings can come and go, too. Is that creative Fi vs. dominant Fi?

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Originally Posted by Bled

I hold grudges but I don't really ~hold~ them. I can be totally in love with someone and be nice to them but talk shit about them and find ways to fuck them over at the same time. The grudgey feelings can come and go, too. Is that creative Fi vs. dominant Fi?

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Same with my sister in law. When she hates someone that person would never know it in interaction with her whereas I show my sad feelings. She's like you. I just express my sadness to friends in search of someone's support and love, kind words and affection. I don't have vindictive qualities but I can express thoughts that not pleasant. I don't talk shit about them. I just express my own feelings. A true grudge is from people who can't forgive. If I'm sensitive and find that I can't emotionally relive the same kind of stress and abuse I won't talk to the person again. So it's best to keep good relations with me and be nice to me. That's not holding a grudge. That's just saying I can't handle that so not going to do that. A grudge to me is not letting go of negative sentiments and reliving them. I let go of the negative feelings but I can't let go of the personal pain. If the person apologizes to me for the negative offense I often go about as if nothing happened after it. I guess it's a value that one should (here's my self-righteous judgement :p) express apology for things that they are truly sorry for having done wrong or hurt your feelings. Some LSE will not want to lose merit or don't want to be seen as wrong but truly they were and an apology is needed not just a situation ignored then everything resumed as if no one was bothered. That's wrong....pretentious me :)

A grudge is holding a poker face and not talking to the person to clear things out. I think that ESI can, SEE can and there's only one person ever that I won't talk to so maybe Ne creative to a far lesser degree :)

The difference between LSI and ESI Ne PoLRs is that ESI doesn't consider positive future potential while the LSI doesn't consider negative potential. Thus ESI runs him/herself into a corner and begins complaining about not seeing a positive future, while the LSI keeps running around making mistakes and getting bruises from life, and also complains about how life is bringing him down.


@squark above relates to one of your recent posts. Maybe it will help you deal with bad for you relationships

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Originally Posted by Rebelondeck

Minde,

Partially, ISFj is a moralist (Fi) with a reductionist (Se) view of the world. They feel that their behaviour and ways are best, and want to be treated as they would treat others. When they aren't, they look at the maltreatment from a simple, basic, physical perspective. They do not look at extenuating circumstances or any global issues; they were simply hurt. The problem is that they will not initiate 'clearing the air' and other parties may not know the ISFj is hurt. It isn't that the ISFj wants to hold a grudge, it's likely that s/he is in stasis with hurt feelings and it may appear like a grudge is being held. The ISFj needs to be led out of the protective cocoon that s/he has created; s/he needs the holistic situation explained in words that have meaning to an ISFj, which is the reductionist view. ENTj is good at doing just that.......

a.k.a. I/O

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I can see the similarities and differences between our two types here. I do a lot of "I did this wrong therefore of course this happened in this way" and "he was in a bad situation and of course would behave that way" I see the plenitude of extenuating circumstances and from all sides. When an isfj is scored by a lover who explains to them what they did wrong they can't accept it. It just isn't a go with them. Does this make sense?

Maritsa,

I find that IFSjs don't tend to look beyond their personal pain whereas INFjs usually look at extenuating circumstances (if any) surrounding the wrong. This doesn't make INFj desire for retribution any less. All Ijs have that I-will-never-let-this-happen-to-me-again protection mechanism; however, Se prefers that the perpetrator be neutralized or gone, else the hurt will remain, whereas Ne seems to be able to better compartmentalize and bury the hurt, but even if the perpetrator were gone, they will revisit in their minds that compartment forever. Unlike INFj, ISFjs seem to need help ensuring that their defence mechanisms do not get in the way of their own lives. INFj seem to have the ability to help others in this area....

a.k.a. I/O

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Originally Posted by Rebelondeck

Maritsa,

I find that IFSjs don't tend to look beyond their personal pain whereas INFjs usually look at extenuating circumstances (if any) surrounding the wrong. This doesn't make INFj desire for retribution any less. All Ijs have that I-will-never-let-this-happen-to-me-again protection mechanism; however, Se prefers that the perpetrator be neutralized or gone, else the hurt will remain, whereas Ne seems to be able to better compartmentalize and bury the hurt, but even if the perpetrator were gone, they will revisit in their minds that compartment forever. Unlike INFj, ISFjs seem to need help ensuring that their defence mechanisms do not get in the way of their own lives. INFj seem to have the ability to help others in this area....

a.k.a. I/O

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I just want an apology. Yes I am stubborn and I'll continue doing the things I like no matter how much I get hurt. I'm stoic too allowing myself to continue in difficult circumstances

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Originally Posted by Pink

Mmm, I have a question. Maybe @Maritsa can help.

A problem I have myself is that I am prone to holding grudges. I'm not sure if this relates to what's been said in the thread, but I do try my hardest to not hold a grudge against someone.
I usually go by the phrase "Forgive but never forget," because quite literally, I can't forget.

If someone wrongs me once or turns me off, it is hard for me to look past it and to forget it. I can remain civil in interaction with these people, and truly try the hardest I can to forgive them,
but my brain will always send me snapshots/memories of what that person did to me that turned me off. It just happens naturally and there is nothing I can do to control these flashbacks
from coming back.

So essentially I will forgive these people and engage in conversation cordially but will have a hard time looking past what they have done to me, secretly.

Is this in relation to Fi in IXFj?

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I may not have answered your question. No. the sad feelings will be brushed aside easily in 99% of cases as though the event never happened and a much harsher one will be delt with escape until the person apologizes.

What Fi in infj, infj will rationalize the person's personal circumstance in most of the cases.

I'll give an example. My building manager is LSE and she hated my SEE sister in law and was really awkward with me too. She would voice negative opinions about Mexican Americans and such to probably persuade me to not like my sister in law. I kept silent and listened to her neither showing agreement or disapproval. Most people may have come to hate her or scorn her for her excessive and rude gestures. I kept silent because she was going through a very tough time. Her husband was dying of cancer and she was the care provider. She was in an emotional hell hole. She hurt my feelings too on numerous occasions where I would go home and try to unwind. The information never sunk in. The next day and following day for a year this went on. After all of this and her husbands death she fell into depression. I slowly made friendly advances. One day I got her strawberries and she took them great fully and asked what made me consider getting them for her and I said "because your husband got you them and you said you like them" I think show of friendship despite her negative tones with me helped her connect to someone and make her feel better.

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Originally Posted by calenwen

Yeah, I think this is a good description. When someone does something to wrong me I won't hold a "grudge" in the sense that I will hold it against them forever and never forgive them or move on, but I will never forget what they did and will keep it in mind when deciding whether or not to confide in them/trust them again and it will definitely alter our relationship in my mind, although I doubt this alteration is noticeable to anyone but myself.

Edit: This doesn't mean that I will dislike the person who has wronged me forever or that I'll never forgive them or confide in them again. I have no problem forgiving someone and moving on, but somewhere in my brain there will always be the reminder of what they did and.... Blah, this is hard to explain.

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I think you are not ESI

@TheHiddenJack Yeah, in my experience ESIs are not really capable of concealing how they feel about someone.

I don't really hold grudges. I try my best to clearly state what bugs me when it happens. Sometimes if I watch other people's reactions to situations on You Tube videos I can find a good way to really make myself heard. Like this one time I watched a video on texting etiquette and I got a text wondering if my phone was acting up. I reply "No, my phone is fine, I just don't text if I'm going to get replies like "Oh that's cool" or "lol", or some one word response, I have better things to do with my time than wait for an uninterested response". But I've learned to chew people out and get angry because sometimes that is really the only way to get through to people, otherwise they keep repeating the same bad behavior like it's okay because I'll tolerate it or something. NOPE. Though I'm generally fair with others unless they really overstep a line. You'll know. I'm not passive aggressive. That sort of behavior in itself from me or others gives me anxiety-- I like to talk about it instead of harboring negativity from both ends. I also like suggestions from people close to me on how to respond to things when I keep getting the same scenarios over and over.

.

A lot of people are just bullies. They take advantage of people, hurt the innocent, destroy what is beautiful in the world. I like to have fun and be really playful, but at the end of the day, some things really matter, like integrity. Vile people do not deserve forgiveness or our sympathy. The world would be better off without them.

It is the Fi, the -Fi in fact.

According to DarkAngelFireWolf69, ESIs have -Fi: "relationship ethics of disapproval: keeping others at a distance, being suspicious, holding a grudge. Such is the ethics of ESI."
Whereas EIIs have +Fi: "relationship ethics of forgiveness: forgiving people, giving them the benefit of the doubt, grieving and comforting those struck by grief, being kind to others. That's the ethics of EII."

Both Fi leads can employ and understand the other kind of Fi, but they naturally favour and use more often one over the other.

Personally, almost all my friendships with ESIs have ended because they couldn't forgive me and kept holding a grudge over a mistake I've made with them.
So, I think what DarkAngelFireWolf69 and the OP have noticed in terms of ESIs often holding a grudge to be very true, and it does seem to be an Fi thing.

Fi falls in love and understands their own feelings towards things very well and if Fi gets hurt very deeply because they loved very deeply of course it's going to hold on to the feelings and those feelings have to work themselves out in order to be released. I don't think that has anything to do with holding a grudge necessarily, but it has to do with holding on to a feeling. Not that Fi wants to cause ill will onto others but it's trying desperately to get the other person to understand these feelings.

What Fi type should do is kick them to the curb and move on because if that person is going to be so immature, childish, selfish, jerks than they don't deserve it.

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Originally Posted by Cassandra

It is the Fi, the -Fi in fact.

According to DarkAngelFireWolf69, ESIs have -Fi: "relationship ethics of disapproval: keeping others at a distance, being suspicious, holding a grudge. Such is the ethics of ESI."
Whereas EIIs have +Fi: "relationship ethics of forgiveness: forgiving people, giving them the benefit of the doubt, grieving and comforting those struck by grief, being kind to others. That's the ethics of EII."

Both Fi leads can employ and understand the other kind of Fi, but they naturally favour and use more often one over the other.

Personally, almost all my friendships with ESIs have ended because they couldn't forgive me and kept holding a grudge over a mistake I've made with them.
So, I think what DarkAngelFireWolf69 and the OP have noticed in terms of ESIs often holding a grudge to be very true, and it does seem to be an Fi thing.

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That doesn't sound right. I read that +Fi is supposed to be incompetent in matters of -Fi and avoids it, while -Fi is competent in both and tries to transition from - to +.

Your ESI ex-friends not forgiving you is probably because you either didn't apologize genuinely (if at all) or because you did something quite unforgivable...

I don't think that plus and minus systems are legit as Fi in ESI acts the same for esi and I. We both can seem fine and when someone says something that we misunderstood or goes against some ideas we react unexpectedly and somewhat abruptly. Ne and Se shape our Fi. I am not bound by sensory esthetics I and go by other people's suggestions and Se in esi makes them ore private but only because they don't expand their possibilities of new experiences with new people like I can. I can almost get excited about new people like they are a new toy. Sorry :D and our instructions to others with regard to etiquette is somewhat different. I'm goofier and let childlike qualities come out but I think esi can make their kids behave like adults. That sense perception is more attached to objects than I am

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Originally Posted by Nate Chur

A lot of people are just bullies. They take advantage of people, hurt the innocent, destroy what is beautiful in the world. I like to have fun and be really playful, but at the end of the day, some things really matter, like integrity. Vile people do not deserve forgiveness or our sympathy. The world would be better off without them.

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You're the best. The stuff you write is enlightening. :D

I don't hold grudges really, I just get pissed off if people keep doing the same things I tell them is breaking my last good nerve. Also I'll avoid situations where people cause too much unnecessary conflict or drama. It is good to address issues yes, sometimes people need to freak out, but if they keep doing the same things that cause too much unnecessary conflict or drama I walk away. It gets old. Sometimes I forget to reply to messages, emails, texts, or calls. It's usually never intentional. I only talk when I have something to say. If I don't have something to say I will be quiet. But that gets taken as disliking others too. Some people naturally feel threatened or rejected by quiet people. I think I am usually amicable if someone is my friend and we hang out irl. I am more genuine in-person. Mostly because I know the guvahmont monitors anyways so I like quality time with others away from the guvahmont. I'm just not too good at keeping consistent talking online.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

I don't think that plus and minus systems are legit as Fi in ESI acts the same for esi and I. We both can seem fine and when someone says something that we misunderstood or goes against some ideas we react unexpectedly and somewhat abruptly. Ne and Se shape our Fi. I am not bound by sensory esthetics I and go by other people's suggestions and Se in esi makes them ore private but only because they don't expand their possibilities of new experiences with new people like I can. I can almost get excited about new people like they are a new toy. Sorry :D and our instructions to others with regard to etiquette is somewhat different. I'm goofier and let childlike qualities come out but I think esi can make their kids behave like adults. That sense perception is more attached to objects than I am

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I don't think the system is legit either.

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Originally Posted by Resonare

That doesn't sound right. I read that +Fi is supposed to be incompetent in matters of -Fi and avoids it, while -Fi is competent in both and tries to transition from - to +.

Your ESI ex-friends not forgiving you is probably because you either didn't apologize genuinely (if at all) or because you did something quite unforgivable...

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Here is the information from DarkAngelFireWolf69. This is what I have read. It is pretty spot-on, in my opinion.

This isn't mentioned in the picture I have linked to, but essentially people can use both +/- of their strongest functions.
For an ESI, that would mean they are able to use both +/- well for Fi and Si. Even so, their "default mode" is going to be -Fi.
One could say, the +/- orientations DarkAngelFireWolf69 mentions for each type are their "default modes", and a strong grasp on the particular IE (=4D) can enable the type to go outside of their default mode into the opposite sphere of the IE. I'd say the subtype would influence this ability. ESI-Fi would be more proficient at also using +Fi than an ESI-Se, for example.

Regarding my ESI ex-friends: I could explain what happened and so forth, but because this is from my POV, it may not be the most objective description. You weren't there, so you cannot really judge for certain. From my perspective, I didn't do anything unforgivable at all. With one friend, I did the "prank" of reading out a passage from Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream, and put her name in place of the donkey in front of our shared friends. That made her so upset, she ended the friendship, even though I kept saying sorry and asking her how I could make it up to her. With the other ESI, I was 5-10 minutes late to a presentation we had to do in university, one that didn't even get a grade. She also was ice-cold afterwards and couldn't get over it. In both cases, I thought they were overreacting. But again, that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

I don't think that plus and minus systems are legit as Fi in ESI acts the same for esi and I. We both can seem fine and when someone says something that we misunderstood or goes against some ideas we react unexpectedly and somewhat abruptly. Ne and Se shape our Fi.

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I see those systems coming from from different viewpoints giving same results. The problem is the lack of formalism. In areas where formalism is well established like in exact sciences this phenomena is quite common.
This is exactly what LIIs do for fun. Is it useful? Sometimes it is as it gives easier way to solve a problem.

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Originally Posted by Cassandra

Here is the information from DarkAngelFireWolf69. This is what I have read. It is pretty spot-on, in my opinion.

This isn't mentioned in the picture I have linked to, but essentially people can use both +/- of their strongest functions.
For an ESI, that would mean they are able to use both +/- well for Fi and Si. Even so, their "default mode" is going to be -Fi.
One could say, the +/- orientations DarkAngelFireWolf69 mentions for each type are their "default modes", and a strong grasp on the particular IE (=4D) can enable the type to go outside of their default mode into the opposite sphere of the IE. I'd say the subtype would influence this ability. ESI-Fi would be more proficient at also using +Fi than an ESI-Se, for example.

Regarding my ESI ex-friends: I could explain what happened and so forth, but because this is from my POV, it may not be the most objective description. You weren't there, so you cannot really judge for certain. From my perspective, I didn't do anything unforgivable at all. With one friend, I did the "prank" of reading out a passage from Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream, and put her name in place of the donkey in front of our shared friends. That made her so upset, she ended the friendship, even though I kept saying sorry and asking her how I could make it up to her.

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Err honestly I think what you did is fairly bad, you are lucky she didn´t kidnap a family member as revenge.

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Originally Posted by Cassandra

Here is the information from DarkAngelFireWolf69. This is what I have read. It is pretty spot-on, in my opinion.

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Ah OK, he's updated his system. One of the things that made no sense to me was EIE being assigned +Fe which meant they avoided -Fe and ESE being -Fe which goes against Alpha values.

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Originally Posted by Cassandra

Regarding my ESI ex-friends: I could explain what happened and so forth, but because this is from my POV, it may not be the most objective description. You weren't there, so you cannot really judge for certain. From my perspective, I didn't do anything unforgivable at all. With one friend, I did the "prank" of reading out a passage from Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream, and put her name in place of the donkey in front of our shared friends. That made her so upset, she ended the friendship, even though I kept saying sorry and asking her how I could make it up to her. With the other ESI, I was 5-10 minutes late to a presentation we had to do in university, one that didn't even get a grade. She also was ice-cold afterwards and couldn't get over it. In both cases, I thought they were overreacting. But again, that's just me.

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:lol:

The first one is too vague, but I've actually done something similar to the last one to avoid having unreliable people around when things started to matter in University, didn't hate them at all though.

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Originally Posted by Cassandra

From my perspective, I didn't do anything unforgivable at all. With one friend, I did the "prank" of reading out a passage from Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream, and put her name in place of the donkey in front of our shared friends. That made her so upset, she ended the friendship, even though I kept saying sorry and asking her how I could make it up to her.

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@Cassandra, I agree with @FDG here, in that I view public humiliation as really bad. I can see, though, how that might have been part of your natural "friends" repertoire, because Beta is about the struggle for power and position. I remember reading somewhere that the IEI-SLE duals call each other "runt" and "scrap" as terms of endearment. (Which perfectly illustrates the Fi-Fe divide.) This is actually one of the biggest turn-offs of IEI's to me, in an otherwise awesome package. Not the name calling, but the will to power and hierarchy. Things didn't actually go well with the LSI that I was dating until she accepted that I could not be dominated, at which point she accepted my "rule" (she seemed to arrive at the conclusion that I was higher on the ladder than she was, which is BS), although I was never comfortable with that attitude, but I could at least then be my naturally nice self to her all the time.

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Originally Posted by Cassandra

With the other ESI, I was 5-10 minutes late to a presentation we had to do in university, one that didn't even get a grade. She also was ice-cold afterwards and couldn't get over it. In both cases, I thought they were overreacting. But again, that's just me.

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This seems harsh. I'm late all the time. I just have to bring a lot to the table when I arrive.

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

@Cassandra, I agree with @FDG here, in that I view public humiliation as really bad. I can see, though, how that might have been part of your natural "friends" repertoire, because Beta is about the struggle for power and position. I remember reading somewhere that the IEI-SLE duals call each other "runt" and "scrap" as terms of endearment. (Which perfectly illustrates the Fi-Fe divide.) This is actually one of the biggest turn-offs of IEI's to me, in an otherwise awesome package. Not the name calling, but the will to power and hierarchy. Things didn't actually go well with the LSI that I was dating until she accepted that I could not be dominated, at which point she accepted my "rule" (she seemed to arrive at the conclusion that I was higher on the ladder than she was, which is BS), although I was never comfortable with that attitude, but I could at least then be my naturally nice self to her all the time.

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Hm, interesting how you read a lot of hierarchal stuff into this.

I got the idea to do this "prank" out of boredom. We girls were hanging out, one half of the group was outside, the other was inside the house. I was with my other best friend (not the ESI) at the time. We were really bored, and tried to think of something to do. I wanted to raise the mood in some impactful way. That's the Beta Quadra aspect of it all. I didn't see anything bad in what I was doing, I thought it was all just a silly joke, and that it was obvious it was just about being silly and having a good time. I wasn't thinking about putting myself above her or anything like that. The passage I read out, was the one where the fairy queen declared her love to the donkey. So, when I read it out, it actually sounded more like a love letter towards my friend than a diss, ha. In a weird way, this is how I was showing I liked her. But obviously, it went all horribly wrong. We were young at the time, early teens. The ESI was a shy girl, and I suppose this whole thing got to her more than it should. At last, I want to add that this wasn't "public humiliation". We were at the house of one of our friends. The only people that witnessed this, were our fellow closest friends.

But yes, it is clear as day that the thing that drove us apart was the Fe/Fi divide and our different understandings of humour and so forth.

That's why I am convinced that sharing the same valued ethical IE is better for group situations. In my case, I enjoy myself more in a group of fellow Fe valuing people and there are less awkward misunderstandings. Being in a group of predominately Fi valuing people can be boring when they are being "too serious" for my taste (unless there is an ExFp in the group, they tend to amp up the energy/mood more with their Fe Demonstrative). However, one-on-one I can have quite positive experiences with Fi valuing types (up to a point ofc).

P.S: I think this bad experience actually gradually lead me to becoming the Ni subtype. Before that, as you can see with my "prank" (I liked doing pranks back in the day), I was more like the Fe subtype.

^Yeah, I got the part where you wouldn't have done it if you hadn't liked her in the first place.

My IEI cousin and I are 3 weeks apart, we used to sleep together in the same crib, and I'm "tuned in" to IEI's, so I get that.

But again, that is the Fi-Fe divide. :(

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

^Yeah, I got the part where you wouldn't have done it if you hadn't liked her in the first place. But again, that is the Fi-Fe divide. :(

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Right, I get it now.
After learning Socionics and understanding the type differences and all that. :p

Before that, I didn't understand what had happened. The whole fall-out was inexplicable to me.
The only conclusion I could arrive at was that there's something deeply wrong with me, and that I am unloveable, whatever.

The funny thing is, after that bad experience, I was attracted to ESIs like crazy. Almost every single crush I've had afterwards was ESI.
Looks like my unconscious sought out to re-create a similar scenario, but this time make it work and do it "right".

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Originally Posted by Cassandra

Right, I get it now.
After learning Socionics and understanding the type differences and all that. :p

Before that, I didn't understand what had happened. The whole fall-out was inexplicable to me.
The only conclusion I could arrive at was that there's something deeply wrong with me, and that I am unloveable, whatever.

The funny thing is, after that bad experience, I was attracted to ESIs like crazy. Almost every single crush I've had afterwards was ESI.
Looks like my unconscious sought out to re-create a similar scenario, but this time make it work and do it "right".

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I was attracted to an ESI before too and it went horribly wrong. Maybe it also boils down to enneagram, instinctual variants, and values. I find 1's to be good friends and 7's are attractive to me from experience. I know why- they're fun to be around and are ridiculously shrewd (from experience) but you have to be paying attention to how smart they actually are. That and I don't do well with negative energy, 7's don't have that negative energy (from experience).

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Originally Posted by Cassandra

Hm, interesting how you read a lot of hierarchal stuff into this.

I got the idea to do this "prank" out of boredom. We girls were hanging out, one half of the group was outside, the other was inside the house. I was with my other best friend (not the ESI) at the time. We were really bored, and tried to think of something to do. I wanted to raise the mood in some impactful way. That's the Beta Quadra aspect of it all. I didn't see anything bad in what I was doing, I thought it was all just a silly joke, and that it was obvious it was just about being silly and having a good time. I wasn't thinking about putting myself above her or anything like that. The passage I read out, was the one where the fairy queen declared her love to the donkey. So, when I read it out, it actually sounded more like a love letter towards my friend than a diss, ha. In a weird way, this is how I was showing I liked her. But obviously, it went all horribly wrong. We were young at the time, early teens. The ESI was a shy girl, and I suppose this whole thing got to her more than it should. At last, I want to add that this wasn't "public humiliation". We were at the house of one of our friends. The only people that witnessed this, were our fellow closest friends.

But yes, it is clear as day that the thing that drove us apart was the Fe/Fi divide and our different understandings of humour and so forth.

That's why I am convinced that sharing the same valued ethical IE is better for group situations. In my case, I enjoy myself more in a group of fellow Fe valuing people and there are less awkward misunderstandings. Being in a group of predominately Fi valuing people can be boring when they are being "too serious" for my taste (unless there is an ExFp in the group, they tend to amp up the energy/mood more with their Fe Demonstrative). However, one-on-one I can have quite positive experiences with Fi valuing types (up to a point ofc).

P.S: I think this bad experience actually gradually lead me to becoming the Ni subtype. Before that, as you can see with my "prank" (I liked doing pranks back in the day), I was more like the Fe subtype.

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The only way I can see her reaction being justified is if she's been bullied and they call her a donkey or that she has a fat ass lol, maybe if she has image problems that she's confided in you about as well. Otherwise it was actually OTT to react like that assuming you're not leaving out any details ofc :)

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Originally Posted by Resonare

The only way I can see her reaction being justified is if she's been bullied and they call her a donkey or that she has a fat ass lol, maybe if she has image problems that she's confided in you about as well. Otherwise it was actually OTT to react like that assuming you're not leaving out any details ofc :)

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I don't think she's ever been bullied during the time I knew her (dunno about kindergarten and such), and she was the opposite of fat, quite slim and delicate.
She never mentioned any kind of body issues to me. Well, just read what Adam said, he apparently gets what made her so upset.

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Originally Posted by Resonare

The only way I can see her reaction being justified is if she's been bullied and they call her a donkey or that she has a fat ass lol, maybe if she has image problems that she's confided in you about as well. Otherwise it was actually OTT to react like that assuming you're not leaving out any details ofc :)

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That or they really didn't know one another well enough. There were certain pranks that were acceptable to me because of closeness. But all of this happened in high school. ZOMG I WUZ STARTIN' MUH PERIOD AND THIS JOKE CAME AT ME, WAS NOT FUNNEH. High school nonsense -_-

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Originally Posted by Cassandra

I don't think she's ever been bullied during the time I knew her (dunno about kindergarten and such), and she was the opposite of fat, quite slim and delicate.
She never mentioned any kind of body issues to me. Well, just read what Adam said, he apparently gets what made her so upset.

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Well, modern teenage girls are totally vile and idiotic ime so I'd just chalk it up to that.

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Originally Posted by Suzaku

That or they really didn't know one another well enough. There were certain pranks that were acceptable to me because of closeness. But all of this happened in high school. ZOMG I WUZ STARTIN' MUH PERIOD AND THIS JOKE CAME AT ME, WAS NOT FUNNEH. High school nonsense -_-

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At best. A lot of them are really nasty where I live.

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Originally Posted by FDG

Err honestly I think what you did is fairly bad, you are lucky she didn´t kidnap a family member as revenge.

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LMFGDAO :lol:

@Cassandra: Yeah, sounds to me like you misjudged the ESI's character so the joke was inappropriate in her specific case, if not necessarily in general. Just needs better calibration. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Resonare

The only way I can see her reaction being justified is if she's been bullied and they call her a donkey or that she has a fat ass lol, maybe if she has image problems that she's confided in you about as well. Otherwise it was actually OTT to react like that assuming you're not leaving out any details ofc :)

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I personally think public humiliation is really hard to forgive...
the other thing where she was just late, seems overreaction to me as well.

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Originally Posted by FDG

I personally think public humiliation is really hard to forgive...
the other thing where she was just late, seems overreaction to me as well.

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Maybe it's a cultural thing because over here in the UK that's just banter :content:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKzY7lyKSV0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx9Vx_db0F4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UT-2ovTLSo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jeJ2-TUUfk

I find unhealthy ESIs tend to hold grudges over things that are minor or if it is major then they did something major themselves to cause it, but ignore it and continue to hold the grudge. Healthy ESIs tend to have enough self awareness to not fall into this trap though and reserve their grudges for those that truly deserve it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H1mNSHvrek

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Originally Posted by Suzaku

You're the best. The stuff you write is enlightening. :D

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thank you....you are very kind :)

I forever wrote off one of my only true childhood friends when he sided against me and some of my other friends with a group of hooligans. It made such a strong impression its like I still can't believe it after all these years. It makes it hard to consider reconciliation because of how mind blowingly awful it was. Like I think I need to get over that before I can even move onto the next step and it feels like I just cannot even process it. The only way I can describe it is it feels like a completely "evil" act, with no rational way to understand it except as "evil"--like it defies any sort of attempt to make sense of it and now occupies the space we call "evil" which is irreducible unmitigated badness. I don't think I want to reconcile with that, because its like burned into his character in such a way I feel I'd be compromising with dark forces were I to try. I also feel like if I were to ever extend an olive branch it would send the message that one can get away with that behavior; rather, on some level I'm hoping that he will one day ask himself "why would a good person such as Bertrand cut me off" and then come to realize his mistake and then we've made real progress. I know that on some level I could "mend" things but it would only essentially "overlooking" evil or turning a blind eye to it--it would never solve the underlying issue, and until that issue gets solved it feels dishonest to "pretend" to be friends, when that would always be in the back of my mind. In other words, the damage is done, the only thing worse than holding a grudge would be to hold a grudge but pretend not to or be in denial about it. If he asked me about it I'd tell him exactly this, but at the same time I have zero faith that me explaining this to him would have any effect. Like many viewpoints in this thread, I think his would simply be that this is entirely my problem thus we are at loggerheads in such a way that terminal distance is the only reasonable way to manage things.

Also I would like to say the gravity of the bad act is determined not by the objective consequences at stake but by the irrationality or incomprehensibility of the act. In other words, a supremely petty act that is totally impossible to comprehend is far more traumatic to me than a potentially dangerous or wide reaching act that is in some way understandable. This makes me look petty, but I feel like the pettiness + irrationality is what gives rise to the true sense of "evil"; and it originates first in the other. I don't want to dislike people, although it outwardly looks like I'm "choosing" to make a mountain of a molehill--I'm really not: precisely when so little is at stake one should be able to count on people doing the right thing, the fact that they don't says more about their character (sometimes--exceptions do exist of course) than good intentioned failure with much worse actual consequences.

I can find their grudge holding somewhat inspiring in some ways, because I'm way more open minded and relaxed when it comes to relationships than them, for the hell of it, and sometimes it bites me in the ass. But I also often find it unnecessary and stuck up. Like, I've fought heavily with an ex-friend ESI in the past for closing all contact with me and blocking me (and blocking many many other people, too, I told her to actually deal with arguments and go past them instead of blocking people :lol:) over what I thought was stupid. I can hate people for some time and shit talk a lot about them but I'm still open to talk to them any time and won't ever block them, etc. and I find trying to keep a grudge for a long time painful. :)

@Cassandra I think those ESIs that got mad at you were definitely overreacting and if someone did that to me I would totally argue with them and tell them to get over it and lighten up. :lol:

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Originally Posted by Bertrand

Also I would like to say the gravity of the bad act is determined not by the objective consequences at stake but by the irrationality or incomprehensibility of the act. In other words, a supremely petty act that is totally impossible to comprehend is far more traumatic to me than a potentially dangerous or wide reaching act that is in some way understandable.

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This perspective is really perplexing to me...especially because if you extend it to yourself, you may get away to your own conscience with reasonable but widely damaging stuff while keeping in check lots of unreasonable but petty things...and that would be dangerous...

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Originally Posted by FDG

This perspective is really perplexing to me...especially because if you extend it to yourself, you may get away to your own conscience with reasonable but widely damaging stuff while keeping in check lots of unreasonable but petty things...and that would be dangerous...

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yes but for it to be "reasonable but highly damaging" it would be offset or justifiable by something, which is presumably something important for it to be equal to "highly damaging"--this doesn't make it objectively "right" just that it makes it "sympathetic"--think magneto in first class. no one is saying Fi is "right all the time" merely for being Fi, rather than Fi has at its core its own "rationality" that, in the broadest stuctural terms, the deepest evil (for me anyway) is that which confounds it, not that which has its place. which isn't to say that I don't think "understandable evil" doesn't exist--I think it does. this is where you can see where someone is coming from but you still think they're wrong. this is shades of black and grey and it would be misleading to think that Fi "makes" things good or evil, rather it was a first person look of what it feels like to experience the kind of thing that would make one need to hold a grudge, which is something that you cannot, for lack of a better word, metabolize, and the result is a grudge, not out of want but out of necessity

I just read this news article about this guy who got dumped by his first love and she gave him a christmas present during the time she dumped him.

He ended up vowing to himself that he will never open that present, and he stayed true to that vow and hadn't opened that present for 48 years, until the day they reunited again as friends and she helped to open it on his behalf.

I wonder if that guy in the news article is an ESI.

Oh boy I do this all the time. Even on other forums, I remember if someone else did something that crossed the line. I don't forgive easily. I know how to let things go, but I still remember them in my head and seethe quietly. Well sometimes I forgive easily, but I don't forget, and I still judge the person based off that.

ESI's suck...

they're lovely grumpy mofos

They are aliens. I have no clue of why are they complicating their lives with that crap. They try to make LIE's makes concessions but holy crap not the whole world can be subordinated under their judgement.

STFU

I was acquaintanced with an ESI once. He hated everything I did and said to the point where I almost feared meeting him .he could make me feel bad about myself with a single look.

I confronted him about it and to my surprise he took it well. He even appologized and I thought we could start from the beginning. But when I met him two weeks late he ignored me completely. Even leaving the room to avoid a conversation. That was months ago and he is still very passionate about not talking to me.

I get that he might be offended and that it's hard for him to forgive but I wish there was some kind of feedback. Just something I could work with. Instead I'm forever on the shitlist and I'm not even sure why.

:D lol

I wouldn't worry too much about how an ESI treats you, I've had to confront my sister many times because she would scare my friends with her looks... and she would be like "what on earth!? I wasn't even looking at them.. " really I think ESIs are constantly preoccupied/thinking about their own shit to give a damn about the people close to them at any moment, if they want to interact, they'll be the first to approach you, and they're usually super chill and nice when they decide to do so.. but if you're not more "important" than their thoughts, there's a big chance they will just ignore you, if not worse... yes :/

I tend to hold grudges for a long time depending on how bad the offense was or how much the person annoyed me; currently, I only have one enemy and he's been my only enemy for a long time. My father was my enemy for a long time, but then I had my revenge and realized what I was doing was ridiculous anyway. I certainly don't hold grudges for every little thing, but I am generally irritable. My feelings towards others aren't stable and I don't hold super stable psychological distance; I have some borderline personality traits.

The Se subtype is slightly more able to forgive and forget than the Fi subtype although Christopher Hitchens wasn't forgiving; the Se subtype has better social skills and is generally warmer and enjoys spending time with people a lot more (that's much truer for male ESI than female ESI). At the same time though, the Se subtype is more likely to firmly believe in capital punishment than the Fi subtype is.

The Se subtype varies quite a bit though in how aggressive they are and how much autonomy they need while pretty much all Fi subtypes are just generally angry people and they generally prefer to dominate and to be in charge, they're much less able to work with others as equals but it's partly due to less being able to adjust their behaviors in relation to others' behaviors because of less visual-spatial awareness, their senses blank out they get stuck in their heads more than the Se subtype does.