Ni-PoLR -- How does it manifest in ESFjs and ESTjs?

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Originally Posted by Heretic 007

ILE might not really appreciate the time aspects. They might throw lots of time to their projects that do not result in anything at all but is rather fun and interesting. <-- probably the best version of Ni ignoring.


As a result they might drag others into their own rabbit hole of impossibilities.

Some gone far examples: study for years something that is doomed not to result in payback.

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Yes, but you know it's going to take years. You know you're going to spend a lot of time on something fun and interesting but that has a low probability of material payback. Both types can easily evaluate ROI and efficiency with 4D Te; LSE will take that evaluation as paramount while ILE may disregard it in favor of fun/interesting. But the point is that you know how long it's going to take. LSE has much less awareness about that due to the Ni PoLR compared to your Ni ignoring

The manifestation of Ni-PoLR is most obvious when someone uses Ne-mobilizing:

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.co...-and-polr.html

Don't know if I can fully answer this for you, but I've seen it partially manifest as not knowing the "why" behind something, the bigger reason/picture. Why am I putting hours and hours towards this? What makes it more or less important than other activities? There's difficulty understanding how what you're doing right now will impact future areas of your life.

Case in point: I have an ESE piano student who's about 13 or 14. She's constantly asking me to review every little detail of her assignment for that week, saying, "Okay, so you want me to do this? And do it like this? And then this?" I'll patiently say, "Yes, do it like that," even though I find going into such minute detail to be really tedious, but it's what she needs so I do it.

But when I try to explain why we're doing something, like "this will contribute to greater smoothness in your playing, we work on scales because you'll find lots of similar passages in your pieces down the road," she just stares at me blankly or tunes out. She's either overwhelmed by or disinterested in the big picture, whereas my Ti or Ni-dom students find context to be really helpful.

In contrast, my ILE student (Ni ignoring) will kind of listen to me talk about the "why" behind what he's doing, but it's like he's only listening with one ear and just shrugs like "Oh, of course, that goes without saying. Now look at this cool trick I just made up!"

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Originally Posted by redundantoxymoron

I mean these are pretty different types outside of that, maybe try to identify your base function or creative function? I mean you can't tell if your Si is suggestive or creative? Or if your Ti is creative or ignored? Or if your Te is demonstrative or base? Or if your Ne is base or HA? (Well, sometimes that one - base vs. HA - does trip people up)

You also can't tell if you're Ti/Fe or Fi/Te valuing?

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The thing is, I can see an equal case for both types (if I am an LSE, I would probably consider myself one with a heavily developed HA) because I'm not sure about the actual strength of my Ne (I can't objectively gauge whether I could consider it "good" or "bad"). I think the fact that I generally don't tend to more Si aspects of my life (cooking, sleeping, healthcare) means that I'm more likely to have Suggestive Si, but there is still the possibility that Si could be a creative function that I try to bypass to go straight to the HA. As for Te, I'm not particularly concerned with the productivity or actual efficiency of my ventures but moreso with what I learn from them and how much fun I can have / how much I can teach people (which I just realized is pretty telling for an Fe orientation) - but "accumulating factual information" (mostly theoretical and scientific facts) does not seem out of place even for a Te-base so while ILE seems more likely than LSE, I'm still considering them with equal weight.

Maybe my ADHD manifests itself as a sort of mimicry of Ni-PoLR

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Originally Posted by Emily

In contrast, my ILE student (Ni ignoring) will kind of listen to me talk about the "why" behind what he's doing, but it's like he's only listening with one ear and just shrugs like "Oh, of course, that goes without saying. Now look at this cool trick I just made up!"

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This may seem disconnected (but it isn't, trust me, as an Ni base you should see why :))) ) but is the ESE studying out of her own interest or obligation? If any reason, why is she studying piano?

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Originally Posted by Heretic 007

ILE might not really appreciate the time aspects. They might throw lots of time to their projects that do not result in anything at all but is rather fun and interesting. <-- probably the best version of Ni ignoring.


As a result they might drag others into their own rabbit hole of impossibilities.

Some gone far examples: study for years something that is doomed not to result in payback.

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So for example, me studying typology for 6 months (with the goal of finding a type and improving my understanding of other people, if someone asks) and forgoing part of my schoolwork to improve my understanding (which is actually what's happening) is Ni ignoring? (and not possibly just Ni PoLR).

I mean, if you do ask me the "why" of this, I can give one. Firstly, the aspect that I found the most interesting about various typology systems (at least the one's that I've studied) is the varying degree of specificity and clarity that authors went through with, and perhaps how founded or unfounded these exacting frameworks were (constrast the somewhat personally charged and exaggerated archetypes of Keirsey with DarkAngelFireWolf69's or Straviskaya's descriptions), and the extent to which these differences may lead to people "mistyping" themselves (which I honestly find a somewhat funny idea, and I'll go into that later). Beyond the stereotypes, however, when conducting functional analysis, I find myself more introspective than I've ever been before (in terms of my own strengths / weaknesses and flaws) and perhaps more able to read people's motivations and map out their strengths/weaknesses. I don't think it's necessary to state the importance of this. The thing is, even if human beings are an evolving species, the reason these archetypes (what Jung rightly called "the collective unconscious") and categorizations arose across cultures and as coherent images is because human nature at large is unchanging: the same fears and motivations that pushed our ancestors through are perhaps the same fears and motivations that most of us have today: they're just against different forces (think about how afraid people are of phenomena like corona or of the mere idea of losing their jobs). What's even more paradoxical, however, is even if you're able to assert that the nature of humankind as a whole as being static, individual human beings are indeeddynamic entities, who are inherently unpredictable (due to the process of adapting themselves to their environments) and that is what changes over time: the outward aspect of a person's nature. One could even see this in the way that I've changed: I like to split my life into "phases", I retain very few details of what happened, but broadly: I can assert that I have been a slave to external ideas for all my life (the static aspect), and what has been evolving is my awareness of the importance that analyzing ideas actually holds to me (something that was largely unconscious before). I guess with greater awareness of the more static aspects of my cognition, and gaining insight into the fundamentals of other people: my understanding of human nature at large will be improved. That's why I'm studying typology (besides the fact it's an interesting intellectual exercise).

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Originally Posted by safsom2

This may seem disconnected (but it isn't, trust me, as an Ni base you should see why :))) ) but is the ESE studying out of her own interest or obligation? If any reason, why is she studying piano?

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When she came to me from another teacher it didn't seem like she was enjoying it much, probably because her first teacher never required her to practice and so she wasn't progressing even after years of lessons. Like a lot of kids, she was probably enrolled without much choice....recently, though, her mom told me she goes to the piano multiple times a day for enjoyment or just to relax.

once, in a pop psychology video, I've heard smth really enlightening, it went like "the greatest wound/fear we bring along is the biggest spring behind our actions". I think this relates to the idea behind the PoLR.

when I look at the ILEs or LSEs I know, I can't distinguish their PoLRs like something as bad as described in the socion, indeed, the ILEs seem to have a natural affinity for understanding people and nurturing good relationships with everyone, while the LSEs seem to easily spiral in a funnel of self-fulfilling prophecies, make-beliefs and often negativity. on another note, I can see similar traits of PoLR in both these types... further confirming my skepticism about socionics.

further observations, I've seen both ILEs, LSEs, ESIs, SEEs and SLIs occupy their time beyond any logic, sometime they can fulfill all they had in mind, sometimes they can't. I don't know wtf any of these types have in common so yet again, fueling my skepticism.

#be you.

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Originally Posted by ooo

once, in a pop psychology video, I've heard smth really enlightening, it went like "the greatest wound/fear we bring along is the biggest spring behind our actions". I think this relates to the idea behind the PoLR.

when I look at the ILEs or LSEs I know, I can't distinguish their PoLRs like something as bad as described in the socion, indeed, the ILEs seem to have a natural affinity for understanding people and nurturing good relationships with everyone, while the LSEs seem to easily spiral in a funnel of self-fulfilling prophecies, make-beliefs and often negativity. on another note, I can see similar traits of PoLR in both these types... further confirming my skepticism about socionics.

further observations, I've seen both ILEs, LSEs, ESIs, SEEs and SLIs occupy their time beyond any logic, sometime they can fulfill all they had in mind, sometimes they can't. I don't know wtf any of these types have in common so yet again, fueling my skepticism.

#be you.

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lol Nah, you just can't type worth a damn. It's hilarious how you think the system is the problem as opposed to your inadequate, sub par understanding of the system. You even mistype yourself and so there's absolutely no reason to believe that you can accurately type others, which renders your conclusions flawed and unreliable.

Ni PoLR has trouble with ambiguity, nuances, hidden meanings, implications.

I remember riding in the car with my ESTj father and listening to his comments about how he thought vanity plates with unclear meanings meant something bad. I was frustrated because I enjoyed the idea of making a hidden statement.

I remember listening to my dad emphasize the importance of minimizing the impact I had on his possessions and my possessions. His reasons took into consideration how things tend to change over time. For example, he wanted to diminish depreciation, water damage, loss of money, etc.

Ultimately my dad and I extinguished each other.

Ni PoLR types respond to uncertainty and changes by trying to make things more comfortable, stable, and predictable.

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Originally Posted by My Chemical Bromance

Ni PoLR has trouble with ambiguity, nuances, hidden meanings, implications.

I remember riding in the car with my ESTj father and listening to his comments about how he thought vanity plates with unclear meanings meant something bad. I was frustrated because I enjoyed the idea of making a hidden statement.

I remember listening to my dad emphasize the importance of minimizing the impact I had on his possessions and my possessions. His reasons took into consideration how things tend to change over time. For example, he wanted to diminish depreciation, water damage, loss of money, etc.

Ultimately my dad and I extinguished each other.

Ni PoLR types respond to uncertainty and changes by trying to make things more comfortable, stable, and predictable.

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Facts.

My pastor's church is on a decline, he fears it's gonna die out. I tried to help him make changes to present in a new light to new potential members, apply some modern changes. His reaction to change was to firmly grip on to his old traditional notions and try to make things as familiar to himself as possible. Essentially locking himself in his comfort zone, thinking that's what needed to be fortified. Instead of using more modern methods he thought the key to growth was to go back to old school methods and hit it hard. One way his Ni PoLR showed up was his inability to see how all these things he wanted to do would not cause his church to grow and actually held it back, it's like all the moves he made to grow did not seem like promising things but just things he was comfortable doing whether they had a real impact or not. Like all his ideas existed in this vacuum of "this is a good idea, let's do this" not "if we do this then this will most likely happen", he doesn't consider cause and effect much, while higher Ni can see what will most likely happen if he goes this route or that route, needless to say it can be like watching someone chase a carrot on a stick and not know it.

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Originally Posted by safsom2

So for example, me studying typology for 6 months (with the goal of finding a type and improving my understanding of other people, if someone asks) and forgoing part of my schoolwork to improve my understanding (which is actually what's happening) is Ni ignoring? (and not possibly just Ni PoLR).
e).

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Idk if it's NI PolR, but it sounds like Ti valuing over Ti ignoring for sure. LSE would not study this just to improve understanding without any direct result, at least I don't think they would. Ti likes to learn for learning sake. I feel like Te would be like "I want to learn this to know my type" or "Know my family's type to avoid conflicts" or "know my SO's type to solve conflicts" not "to understand people if they ask me".<<There's no direct problem being solved here and it doesn't sound like you are trying to readily apply this knowledge to a problem, but just have it on deck if ever given the chance to use it. Te knowledge seeking seems more solution focused, they might seek out the knowledge to solve a current problem or a future problem, but it's always directed at creating some kind of outcome. The idea of improving your understanding sounds like Ti. Loading up the Ti library to have a wealth of information to draw from. Te is more focused with what's the use of knowledge, Ti is more focused on accurately understanding the knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Lord Pixel

Facts.

My pastor's church is on a decline, he fears it's gonna die out. I tried to help him make changes to present in a new light to new potential members, apply some modern changes. His reaction to change was to firmly grip on to his old traditional notions and try to make things as familiar to himself as possible. Essentially locking himself in his comfort zone, thinking that's what needed to be fortified. Instead of using more modern methods he thought the key to growth was to go back to old school methods and hit it hard. One way his Ni PoLR showed up was his inability to see how all these things he wanted to do would not cause his church to grow and actually held it back, it's like all the moves he made to grow did not seem like promising things but just things he was comfortable doing whether they had a real impact or not. Like all his ideas existed in this vacuum of "this is a good idea, let's do this" not "if we do this then this will most likely happen", he doesn't consider cause and effect much, while higher Ni can see what will most likely happen if he goes this route or that route, needless to say it can be like watching someone chase a carrot on a stick and not know it.

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Why do you think the church is dying?

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Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman

Why do you think the church is dying?

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Because all the members are 50 and up.

In Europe young people get to have sex if they join church, maybe that would be worth a try

The church is dying because people are realising that it hurts more than it heals. No need to try to make it seem more "modern" if the core of the ideology stays the same. That's just manipulation.

Now about the topic of this thread... To me Ni polr is acting all while failing to see the consequence that is the most likely to happen. It's like being forced to adopt a trial and error mentality for everything. It fits them well because they are usually very active anyway but it causes them to waste a lot of their time doing things that are useless in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by YXPR

The church is dying because people are realising that it hurts more than it heals. No need to try to make it seem more "modern" if the core of the ideology stays the same. That's just manipulation.

Now about the topic of this thread... To me Ni polr is acting all while failing to see the consequence that is the most likely to happen. It's like being forced to adopt a trial and error mentality for everything. It fits them well because they are usually very active anyway but it causes them to waste a lot of their time doing things that are useless in my opinion.

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Couldn't the "trial and error" (probably more precise to call it experimental) mentality (at least with possibilities) also be applied to Ne-bases? Or is that an MBTI misconception I've mistakenly carried to my understanding of Socionics?

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Originally Posted by Lord Pixel

Because all the members are 50 and up.

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Lol. Okay, why do you think young people aren’t attracted to the church?

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Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman

Lol. Okay, why do you think young people aren’t attracted to the church?

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This question should really be addressed in a thread split.

However, to give my opinion, the church originally served as a repository for tribal laws and told stories about why those laws were important to the tribe. That function is now held by the government. The advantage that the church had was that it had a longer time horizon than the latest king and so could endorse rules which had a proven history behind them.

The church also provided a rudimentary explanation for why the sun rose and the rains came. It was an early form of science, although empiricism was under-appreciated for a very long time.

It also served as a meeting place for people to get together on safe ground to listen to each other and to work out their differences in the presence of an impartial judge who followed civilized rules of engagement. That function is now held by governments and the courts and by your personal psychiatrist.

Finally the church was often a source of entertainment, and that function is now performed by the entertainment industry and by the internet.

What functions does the church do better than anyone else? My personal opinion is that it brings people together in real life in an arena which is safe and accepting to all, and it promotes respectful discourse, both of which are under-valued by the average person but are slowly being better appreciated as people age. It is really impossible at this point to name an adequate substitute for face-to-face interactions.

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Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman

Lol. Okay, why do you think young people aren’t attracted to the church?

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I'd add carelessness for social rituals (see, traditions) and alphabetization to the list provided by Adam.

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Originally Posted by safsom2

The thing is, I can see an equal case for both types (if I am an LSE, I would probably consider myself one with a heavily developed HA) because I'm not sure about the actual strength of my Ne (I can't objectively gauge whether I could consider it "good" or "bad"). I think the fact that I generally don't tend to more Si aspects of my life (cooking, sleeping, healthcare) means that I'm more likely to have Suggestive Si, but there is still the possibility that Si could be a creative function that I try to bypass to go straight to the HA. As for Te, I'm not particularly concerned with the productivity or actual efficiency of my ventures but moreso with what I learn from them and how much fun I can have / how much I can teach people (which I just realized is pretty telling for an Fe orientation) - but "accumulating factual information" (mostly theoretical and scientific facts) does not seem out of place even for a Te-base so while ILE seems more likely than LSE, I'm still considering them with equal weight.

Maybe my ADHD manifests itself as a sort of mimicry of Ni-PoLR

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Yeah, this sounds Fe-valuing, Te-devaluing, and Ne > Si dimensionality. Sorry. lol

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Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman

Lol. Okay, why do you think young people aren’t attracted to the church?

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I think the real question is why is the church attracted to young people.

And I say this as a devout Christian myself.

Either things change, or Christianity will be wiped out. And it will be our fault.

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Originally Posted by ooo

once, in a pop psychology video, I've heard smth really enlightening, it went like "the greatest wound/fear we bring along is the biggest spring behind our actions". I think this relates to the idea behind the PoLR.

when I look at the ILEs or LSEs I know, I can't distinguish their PoLRs like something as bad as described in the socion, indeed, the ILEs seem to have a natural affinity for understanding people and nurturing good relationships with everyone, while the LSEs seem to easily spiral in a funnel of self-fulfilling prophecies, make-beliefs and often negativity. on another note, I can see similar traits of PoLR in both these types... further confirming my skepticism about socionics.

further observations, I've seen both ILEs, LSEs, ESIs, SEEs and SLIs occupy their time beyond any logic, sometime they can fulfill all they had in mind, sometimes they can't. I don't know wtf any of these types have in common so yet again, fueling my skepticism.

#be you.

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thank you. you set me free. I don't need Socionics to be myself

@safsom2 I read the rest of the thread now and you definitely sound Ti valuing and Te devaluing

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Originally Posted by redundantoxymoron

thank you. you set me free. I don't need Socionics to be myself

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of course you dont need socionics to be you ; )

what's less obvious is that you don't need socionics to define who u are, how you work, what you go or don't go after and how. but I'm not expecting you to realize this any time soon.

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Originally Posted by YXPR

The church is dying because people are realising that it hurts more than it heals. No need to try to make it seem more "modern" if the core of the ideology stays the same. That's just manipulation.

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he was talking about one church not the church in general.

I'll repost what I previously wrote on an older thread:

"The more Ni you have in you, the less competent you will be at real world stuff (though every introvert will have this problem to some extent; Ni to a greater degree annihilates objective reality). This is what makes typings like IEI for Obama so highly amusing but flatly wrong. Obama is highly competent at outer world stuff....as just one example, he was an energizer-bunny star fundraiser for the democratic party just as a freshman senator. He never says anything that is remotely rebellious or nonconformist.

Ni is a rich, highly nuanced, detailed inner world that makes the outer world look like a needless distraction (or even somewhat non-existent). When Ni-doms find a way to bridge their inner world with the outer world, that's where you largely see them coming out of their inner world to interact with the external environment and what they bring is something original and unique. The flip side is that when Ni is in the vulnerable function, this type of existence all gets flipped on its head and what you get is a highly practical, hyper-productive, in-your-face, Type A personality workhorse."

Gordon Ramsay is a classic example (LSE-Te) of Ni PoLr

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Originally Posted by redundantoxymoron

@safsom2 I read the rest of the thread now and you definitely sound Ti valuing and Te devaluing

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Kinda like you lol

q-tip is a perfect example of Ni PoLr.

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Originally Posted by Kill4Me

q-tip is a perfect example of Ni PoLr.

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I mean obviously not, but pop off pussy ass bitch. Called you out on TypologyCentral for being a pussy hiding your type and you had fuck all to say about that (interesting how conflict-avoidant you are for an Se lead 8 huh?).