Ni-PoLR -- How does it manifest in ESFjs and ESTjs?

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Originally Posted by limNol

(...) often makes detailed long-term plans that ignore all the factors that can change over time. These plans often encapsulate very specific, non-changing relationships and life goals without an awareness of the fragility inherent in said relationships and goals, so the plans often end up collapsing under the weight of time.

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Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold

I see Ni PoLR manifest as a need to be able to see productivity instead of letting it happen behind the scenes. Actions must be visible and plans must be known from start to finish, any secrecy or ambiguity is feared as a threat.

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Both are different ways of illustrating the same, IMO. For xSE, only direct developments matter - for an effect to be considered, it must be clearly visible and its consequences known. Approximating unknown aspects is in opposition to this, and I've yet to see xSE do so, much less effectively. I compare Si to weak and Ni to strong emergence - the former claims all effects of interactions are accounted for, while in case of the latter, the whole point is they aren't directly (explicitly) traceable to the properties of the system - each focusing on the aspects the other ignores.

And it really needn't be time-related - development over time is merely an example of information better suited to Ni, simply because of the unaccountability of all the factors.

I think weak Ni rationals types exhibit these traits more or less

Ni PoLR's seems to involve a mindset that is focused on the present, tangible, state. Because of this they find it difficult to gauge how what they're doing in the present will affect the future, so they take an overtly proactive approach by doing a lot in the tangible state in order to avoid the impending results of not doing these things; so they basically feel an obligation to undertake things that will look pointless to those with strong Ni, particularly it may look like expanding a lot of energy for nothing
I do think they often attempt to plan ahead (I know of a particular ESE who dose this excessively) and can become aggravated when something or someone intrudes amongst this; they seem to be relieved by an Ne perspective that reminds them that they won't crash and burn when things go off course

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Originally Posted by limNol

So what would Ni PoLR look like in ESEs?

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Originally Posted by socionics.com

ESFjs are incredibly hospitable and are always trying to surprise their guests with something unusual. ESFjs work on the philosophy that guests should first be fed and then entertained. However they can sometimes be over the top with offers of food as they have difficulties judging when enough is enough.

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^^^ Ni PoLR. Gauging 'when enough is enough', trying to be too helpful with people, being too nice, sometimes 'sleeping around' because they feel connected to people and don't have the perspective to say 'no' when things are getting too intimate, going in and out of relationships because they feel in love without any perspective to understand it may be a fling, etc.

Lol. XD My sister's an ESFj. Bad timing after mentioning all the bad parts about Ni PoLR in ESE. :biggrin: She doesn't sleep around, we were raised in a strong Christian household. But! Another example. She has LOTS of alcohol in her apartment for the many parties she throws. :P Sometimes we joke that she's an alcoholic. That of course goes along with the "over the top with offers of food as they have difficulties judging when enough is enough."

As for Ni PoLR in LSEs:

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Originally Posted by socionics.com

ESTjs have a tremendous ability to work. If necessary, they can work for many hours a day, seven days a week without proper rest. Their understanding of relaxation is to lie down on the sofa watching television for a few hours and then they are ready to work again. ESTjs can not stay without work for long. They like to work and as a result they always keep themselves occupied. ESTjs often display the qualities of a good organiser.

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LSEs are more subconsciously afraid of not being productive, because they don't see if it will affect their success or not. Where most people can say, "I can relax now, it'll be ok if I get to doing this tomorrow.", LSEs don't understand. They don't understand the perspective of being able to 'put things off' or procrastinate, and that things will be just fine. They lack the Ni necessary to see the effect of their hard work over a long period of time, understanding how the actions they take NOW fit in with their long-term goals. So, to compensate, they stick with dominant Te, staying active and 'getting things done', as a means to be successful.

My one roommate in college I believed to be LSE... insane dedication to being successful. He studied more than anyone I knew... consistently put between 15-20 hours of study time for EVERY SINGLE TEST/EXAM in university... he'd go to classes all day and spend his evenings in the library. We'd go out to drink and party maybe once a week on weekends... of course, if he didn't have any work to get done first.

Trouble is, sometimes when I'd study with him, if we were in the same class (we both were business majors), he would stay and try to study in the library when he was obviously tired... even if he was exhausted, none of the material sinking in, and extra time spent trying to study was wasted... he'd put in the time anyway. He didn't understand the perspective of taking a break and coming back to it fresh, able to remember more. Sometimes when I suggested we take a break, he would reply strongly that we gotta study and learn the material so we can do well on the test! :? It's like he didn't hear me... of course that fits with Benefactor/Beneficiary relationship... but yes, this is an example of dominant Te with Ni PoLR.

How are these for writeups for ESEs and LSEs? :P Maybe I should do more writeups of other types if you guys liked these. :biggrin: (My own Fi PoLR. ;) Trying to help people understand by using Ne+Ti) But yes, to answer the OP's question in one word: Yes. Your friend sounds like LSE.

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Originally Posted by Ashton2

While I could often make headway explaining (or arguing) to them better ways of getting at what they wanted… they never seemed to learn from their mistakes, so it was a hassle. And I can't say as though the δ-NFs (coincidentally an INFj and ENFp) were much help on that front; normally they'd just have quadra incest and mutually feed into each other's bs about how something was "a good idea," and how it "might do this" or "might do that" or "well let's just try it and see!" At which point any hope of getting through to any of them, was forfeit. And me and this ESFp would glance at each other and roll our eyes.

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My ESFj dad does the same sort of things. Whenever we try to do something productive together, he always ensures that we take super-extra-special precautions because "something bad might happen." Granted these generally aren't bad ideas, but it feels like he makes these precautions because he doesn't really know where the potential problems would lie or how to fix them, so he adds a bunch of superfluous steps to make sure he has all his bases covered. This could be more rooted in unvalued Te or something though.

I think it's more a matter of farsightedness versus carelessness...accepting a decision (:Ne: Base) or creating reasons to avoid a decision (:Ne: PoLR) are behaviors which both support farsight and favor planning ahead. Types that must accept reasons or spontaneously create decisions are not likely to pursue any one pretext for very long.

Here's my take: Ni-polr = inability to deal with internal/semiotic confusion. Have to know what an action means and can't deal with changing that. So if making command x means producing result y, then that's just that. And if something changes making that relationship no longer work: a) there's a denial period (as in: no, I did it right, so if it's not working it must be a problem somewhere else), b) once the method has failed numerous times, the method is abandoned and avoided.

To Ni-egos, this is likely to come off as an inability to deal with nuances or subtleties.

Also, Ni-polr's have trouble distinguishing people's motives (especially LSEs, who also have trouble with Fe-egos, who are skilled at expressing emotions they don't necessarily feel at the moment). Even ESEs will often seem to not notice obvious motives for doing things. For instance, my good friend who's ESE often refers to the guy she's dating as "my boyfriend," as in "oh look, my boyfriend is calling!" The trouble is, we all know the guy she's dating and are friends with him, so she might as well call him "Bob" (not his real name, lol). So, being NiFe, it's fairly obvious to me that she's indirectly bragging about the fact that she's in a happy relationship, or at least... you know, playing it up. She's doing it because she wants to emphasize the fact that she's in a good relationship. And it's like she's not aware of that motive or something.

What else... Ni, for me, is about tracing something backwards or forwards in time/causation/whatever. It's like seeing the final state of something and deducing the prior states. Or seeing an effect and deducing the cause; or the other way around, seeing a cause and deducing the effect. So like, Ni-polr is not being able to do that. And of course, polr's come in the underdoing and overdoing varieties. Some xSEs may try obsessively to plan far into the future (but still not have the normal Ni-ego sense of how that could change based on different variables---inability to sort of introduce other elements into the forecast), while others may try to completely ignore the future and focus on what they judge appropriate in any given moment.

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Originally Posted by silverchris9

Here's my take: Ni-polr = inability to deal with internal/semiotic confusion. Have to know what an action means and can't deal with changing that. So if making command x means producing result y, then that's just that. And if something changes making that relationship no longer work: a) there's a denial period (as in: no, I did it right, so if it's not working it must be a problem somewhere else), b) once the method has failed numerous times, the method is abandoned and avoided.

To Ni-egos, this is likely to come off as an inability to deal with nuances or subtleties.

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This comes off like that to me too.

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Also, Ni-polr's have trouble distinguishing people's motives (especially LSEs, who also have trouble with Fe-egos, who are skilled at expressing emotions they don't necessarily feel at the moment). Even ESEs will often seem to not notice obvious motives for doing things. For instance, my good friend who's ESE often refers to the guy she's dating as "my boyfriend," as in "oh look, my boyfriend is calling!" The trouble is, we all know the guy she's dating and are friends with him, so she might as well call him "Bob" (not his real name, lol). So, being NiFe, it's fairly obvious to me that she's indirectly bragging about the fact that she's in a happy relationship, or at least... you know, playing it up. She's doing it because she wants to emphasize the fact that she's in a good relationship. And it's like she's not aware of that motive or something.

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Yeah, generally they have trouble looking beneath the surface of things.

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What else... Ni, for me, is about tracing something backwards or forwards in time/causation/whatever. It's like seeing the final state of something and deducing the prior states. Or seeing an effect and deducing the cause; or the other way around, seeing a cause and deducing the effect. So like, Ni-polr is not being able to do that. And of course, polr's come in the underdoing and overdoing varieties. Some xSEs may try obsessively to plan far into the future (but still not have the normal Ni-ego sense of how that could change based on different variables---inability to sort of introduce other elements into the forecast), while others may try to completely ignore the future and focus on what they judge appropriate in any given moment.

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Very well put.

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Originally Posted by Aiss

I compare Si to weak and Ni to strong emergence - the former claims all effects of interactions are accounted for, while in case of the latter, the whole point is they aren't directly (explicitly) traceable to the properties of the system - each focusing on the aspects the other ignores.

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Nice, this is a cool way of looking at it. It also explains why Si types are eager to criticize Ni types for missing what's right in front of them while Ni criticizes Si for taking what's apparent at face value.

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Originally Posted by Galen

My ESFj dad does the same sort of things. Whenever we try to do something productive together, he always ensures that we take super-extra-special precautions because "something bad might happen." Granted these generally aren't bad ideas, but it feels like he makes these precautions because he doesn't really know where the potential problems would lie or how to fix them, so he adds a bunch of superfluous steps to make sure he has all his bases covered. This could be more rooted in unvalued Te or something though.

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Haha, both my parents do this, and it drives me crazy. I don't think it's type-related though. I think people often take this attitude towards things that have to do with their weak functions as a way of compensating for their vulnerability in those areas.

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Originally Posted by silverchris9

Some xSEs may try obsessively to plan far into the future (but still not have the normal Ni-ego sense of how that could change based on different variables---inability to sort of introduce other elements into the forecast), while others may try to completely ignore the future and focus on what they judge appropriate in any given moment.

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I've noticed this weird combination of rigidly planning things ahead, even really trivial things, while simultaneously ignoring the general tendency of things through time and retreating into the present. Personally, this is frustrating as hell for me because it feels like needlessly worrying about mapping things into the future in a way that's counter-productive while also ignoring the future when it really matters. But that's probably how everyone feels about types they don't see eye-to-eye with.



Actually, it seems like Si and Ni might play equal roles in perceiving "the future." (After all, that's such a general term, and different people perceive the future in vastly different ways.) Maybe Si visualizes the future as a direct extension of the present while Ni sees it as a confluence of overlapping variables. Or something like that. ;)

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Originally Posted by Mountain Dew

Trouble is, sometimes when I'd study with him, if we were in the same class (we both were business majors), he would stay and try to study in the library when he was obviously tired... even if he was exhausted, none of the material sinking in, and extra time spent trying to study was wasted... he'd put in the time anyway. He didn't understand the perspective of taking a break and coming back to it fresh, able to remember more. Sometimes when I suggested we take a break, he would reply strongly that we gotta study and learn the material so we can do well on the test! :? It's like he didn't hear me... of course that fits with Benefactor/Beneficiary relationship... but yes, this is an example of dominant Te with Ni PoLR.

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Sounds exactly like Si-PoLR, are you reverting the basics of Socionics? This is in fact the idea of the Si-PoLR descriptions, that it gives the type some sort of will to overcome the limits of his physical resources, using determination, to proceed for much higher and important purposes. When they have something to do, they can't relax, in fact often despise just the thought that something so trivial like hunger or fatigue can deter them in something cool or important.
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...verted_Sensing
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...verted_Sensing
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...ast_Resistance
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...ast_Resistance
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...verted_sensing
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...verted_sensing

Now compare that to the Si-Creative of the Si Rationals:
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...verted_Sensing
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...ative_Function
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...verted_sensing
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...verted_Sensing
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...verted_sensing
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...ative_function
They are doers and submitted to the agenda of their first function, but they have some limits that they respect and regulate activities that keeps them into shape.

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Originally Posted by silverchris9

Also, Ni-polr's have trouble distinguishing people's motives (especially LSEs, who also have trouble with Fe-egos, who are skilled at expressing emotions they don't necessarily feel at the moment). Even ESEs will often seem to not notice obvious motives for doing things. For instance, my good friend who's ESE often refers to the guy she's dating as "my boyfriend," as in "oh look, my boyfriend is calling!" The trouble is, we all know the guy she's dating and are friends with him, so she might as well call him "Bob" (not his real name, lol). So, being NiFe, it's fairly obvious to me that she's indirectly bragging about the fact that she's in a happy relationship, or at least... you know, playing it up. She's doing it because she wants to emphasize the fact that she's in a good relationship. And it's like she's not aware of that motive or something.

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lol, i love this example because its one of the more obvious ways i've seen Ni polr playing out in the xSEs i've known and because i think it's adorable. the fact that they are so easy to read gives them a sort of trustworthy quality to me. like their motives are right out in the open, so there's not much to worry about. but sometimes, yeah, it can be kind of like.../facepalm. hahaha.

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Originally Posted by limNol

Actually, it seems like Si and Ni might play equal roles in perceiving "the future." (After all, that's such a general term, and different people perceive the future in vastly different ways.) Maybe Si visualizes the future as a direct extension of the present while Ni sees it as a confluence of overlapping variables. Or something like that. ;)

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:D this sounds right to me. for me, its kind of like the difference between walking on solid ground versus...idk, something not solid. :P it may be more laborious and time-consuming and it keeps you chained to the ground, but you can always start walking in another direction or sit and pull on the grass for awhile and you never need to worry about, like...dropping out of the sky. there's a comfort in that. of course there are benefits and drawbacks to either outlook.

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Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold

Ni is more than just its relation to foresight.

However, I see Ni PoLR manifest as a need to be able to see productivity instead of letting it happen behind the scenes. Actions must be visible and plans must be known from start to finish, any secrecy or ambiguity is feared as a threat. Ni can be viewed as the "journey" function. So when it comes time to plan something, it will be done as if the "journey" is dangerous and subject to uncertainty, therefore measures will be taken so as to account for the most possible negative outcomes. The plan will try to shorten the "journey" as best as it can so the uncertainty period will not last long.

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Yup, Ni sees in the introverted sense and any expression of their foresight is ignored by LSE, this is why they are relations of conflicting, just the same as my Fi is invisible to the visible and tangible expression of Se, being another objective and extraverted type.

I guess, knowing this about LSE, I don't really argue with them about what they decide objectively. I do the things I want to do behind their backs because they don't value that which they can't see, which I decide is ok to do and only present the results to them once things have worked out successfully.

I also wanted to say that I don't pressure LSE for not having followed the foresighted plan in the sense I have envisioned it, from my Ni demonstrative function. Hence, I give them a lot of personal freedom.

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Originally Posted by laghlagh

lol, i love this example because its one of the more obvious ways i've seen Ni polr playing out in the xSEs i've known and because i think it's adorable. the fact that they are so easy to read gives them a sort of trustworthy quality to me. like their motives are right out in the open, so there's not much to worry about. but sometimes, yeah, it can be kind of like.../facepalm. hahaha.

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Hm, that's good to hear. Betas talk a lot about how adorable/funny Fi-polr is (and it is), so it's nice to hear something similar about Ni-polr. I can totally see how that would be likable, even though it is not particularly likable to me. I have not heard any of the same comments about Te-polr, however...

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Originally Posted by silverchris9

Hm, that's good to hear. Betas talk a lot about how adorable/funny Fi-polr is (and it is), so it's nice to hear something similar about Ni-polr. I can totally see how that would be likable, even though it is not particularly likable to me. I have not heard any of the same comments about Te-polr, however...

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Well...

An IEI I know lost a dog she was watching for a friend and became convinced that her asshole neighbor had stolen it out of pique (they'd had bad relations for years and were in the middle of a lawsuit at the time). I presented several evidentiary reasons why her suspicions were probably baseless and cautioned her against drawing hasty conclusions about her adversaries, but she refused to be swayed (eyes flashing with righteous indignation *sigh*). I talked to the guy and found nothing, and when I returned to her place the dog was in her yard, having come out from underneath her house where it'd been hiding for two days. She was sheepish and a bit sullen at having bamboozled herself but I found her poutiness cute and vulnerable, and she had to admit that my thinking was clear and correct (I'd predicted that the dog was close nearby).

Another time I helped her with a rather elaborate and disgusting household problem. When I explained, implemented, and adjusted the process I'd devised to tackle this task she gladly followed my instructions and even conceded with a hint of admiration that I was a better planner than she was.

In either case it was nice being able to easily see through problems she found vexing, and I found her open reliance on me for these things rather endearing.

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Originally Posted by k0rps3y

Well...

An IEI I know lost a dog she was watching for a friend and became convinced that her asshole neighbor had stolen it out of pique (they'd had bad relations for years and were in the middle of a lawsuit at the time). I presented several evidentiary reasons why her suspicions were probably baseless and cautioned her against drawing hasty conclusions about her adversaries, but she refused to be swayed (eyes flashing with righteous indignation *sigh*). I talked to the guy and found nothing, and when I returned to her place the dog was in her yard, having come out from underneath her house where it'd been hiding for two days. She was sheepish and a bit sullen at having bamboozled herself but I found her poutiness cute and vulnerable, and she had to admit that my thinking was clear and correct (I'd predicted that the dog was close nearby).

Another time I helped her with a rather elaborate and disgusting household problem. When I explained, implemented, and adjusted the process I'd devised to tackle this task she gladly followed my instructions and even conceded with a hint of admiration that I was a better planner than she was.

In either case it was nice being able to easily see through problems she found vexing, and I found her open reliance on me for these things rather endearing.

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Hmmm... that works better for girls than for guys. "Me strong man! You weak woman! I fix problems of you! SEX YOU ME NOOOOOOOWW!?!"

But I guess some people find my ineptitude endearing. It makes me seem harmless and non-threatening. And I am... to an extent.

Also, I've totally almost done things like the dog business. Like I almost accused my cousin of stealing one of my presents on Christmas (a gift card), and then I found it in some obvious place like on the counter or next to my wallet or something dumb. That's why I try to avoid accusing people of anything, because I'm usually wrong. But then people get away with a lot of actual mean things because I'm timid about whether or not they're actually doing something mean to me or if I'm just projecting my paranoia about the human race onto them. This only increases my paranoia about the human race, of course.

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Originally Posted by Ashton2

Lol. You know, it's one thing to overlook something obvious; that happens to the best of us from time to time. But what I don't get… is why that consequently has to entail wacky conspiracy theories about people fucking you over/stealing shit from you. I see that happen a lot and I've no idea why it's so commonplace.

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Attempt to compensate for the polr using the strong functions: i.e., assigning motives (strong NiFe) to compensate for weak capacity to deal with basic details (because that weak capacity is such a sore spot). It's a completely spontaneous, bizarre reaction, and perhaps one that I can correct now that I know about it. That is right folks, socionics does work.

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Originally Posted by Ashton2

Hah, cool explanation. Unfortunately I've seen many non-:Te: PoLRs do the same, including :Te: egos. :?

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Well... um... they do it differently. Or not as often. Or something. *hides*

EDIT: you can come up with a reasonable socionics argument based on weak Ni too. As far as negative behavioral manifestations, you can basically associate any behavior with an IM, and then show how having that IM in any slot whatsoever results in said negative manifestation. We'd need a larger sample size to see if it really correlates with type, I suppose.

Usually, with regard to LSE, they are so focused on the task at hand that time doesn't become important. An Ni for an LSE is stressful because is covering details of time but LSE are aiming for the goal, they are focusing on the goal not the process. Ni types focus on the process and coupled with Se, they are so physical about things that they can't abandon the importance of time (I'm better reffering to NiTe/SeFi pair here), but let's take a look at NiFe for LSE. Don't interrupt an LSE while they are trying to focus, Ni is very interrupting in Ni and Fe kinda way to them....I take pressure on that function for LSE by letting them focus on the tasks that they are working on while I go out and dig for Ne and later share Ne with them as well as give them Fi. :p

With ESE, NiTe, creating a conflict, only tells them what to do, production orientation due to Se valuing, where ESE gets tired of being pushed to constantly focus on nothing but work. Some NiTe can't rest, or take Si, unless they have all their projects done. FeSi wants to just do more Si :p

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Originally Posted by Ashton2

Hah, cool explanation. Unfortunately I've seen many non-:Te: PoLRs do the same, including :Te: egos. :?

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Because you're not typing people accurately.

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Originally Posted by silverchris9

Well... um... they do it differently. Or not as often. Or something. *hides*

EDIT: you can come up with a reasonable socionics argument based on weak Ni too. As far as negative behavioral manifestations, you can basically associate any behavior with an IM, and then show how having that IM in any slot whatsoever results in said negative manifestation. We'd need a larger sample size to see if it really correlates with type, I suppose.

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The dog-losing IEI I was talking about leans heavily toward the Ni subtype and is something of a confabulator who says enough fantastical things that she's widely regarded as nuts (I'm a good bit more lenient and prefer "eccentric"). From my observations she allows her feelings to dictate the course of her thoughts and tends to let her imagination run riot. You can hash that out in whatever socionicky formula you like.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

Don't interrupt an LSE while they are trying to focus, Ni is very interrupting in Ni and Fe kinda way to them

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Not type related. No one who's performing tasks that require detailed attention wants to be interrupted, particularly someone who's impatient or antisocial.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

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Originally Posted by Ashton2

Hah, cool explanation. Unfortunately I've seen many non-Te PoLRs do the same, including Te egos.

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Because you're not typing people accurately.

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I've either unjustly accused others of taking missing items or been sorely tempted to do so before, whoops, finding those objects unmolested. This happens to nearly everyone. Again, not type related.

Here's a good example of Ni-PoLR in LSE.

I call my cousin at 2pm and ask her to go shopping with me. She accepts, but wants to go ASAP. We go at 2:30pm. We're out shopping for 5.5 hrs. I don't value time and I don't value exact time, so I put no pressure on how much time she takes to browse at the store. If I had been my friend, EIE, I would have almost immediately, would have kept taps on my time, watching my wrist watch for the time and waiting for the next appointment, putting pressure on her to hurry up. Ne time, like ticaud said is whenever time, Ni is exacting with time and appointments, schedules, priorities. NOT ME...hence, I pretty much tell the LSE to take as much time as they want, to be comfortable just getting things done to their liking and not feel pressured to do it under my schedule, appointments, or plans, because I can always change and adapt them. I also don't like being ignored. Not seeing someone for a long time and not doing enough things with them would bother me, but I communicate that with LSE and let them know that I would like their participation in the relationship.

Ni PoLR sometimes manifests in my cousin's regrets about not having taken another major in college that she feels now she may have been more successful at. I keep reminding her to retrace her goals and take a look at the comfortable life she has built because of this great opportunity she has and that it isn't too late to try that route again. She then takes that info and applies it objectively and concludes that in comparison to that other type of life she could have had, this one is actually really comfortable.

I rarely have long term plans btw. The future seems to malleable to make such plans that or I just dont have the imagination to do it, idk which one it is. I take on short term projects and have good vision for those kind of endeavors, where you just plan some goal and then put aside everything to acheive that goal, but I have a hard time doing it with a long term goal like finishing college and such things.

This alll sounds like Te polr I know, but I know other ENFjs who have the same problem.

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Originally Posted by Typhon

I rarely have long term plans btw. The future seems to malleable to make such plans that or I just dont have the imagination to do it, idk which one it is. I take on short term projects and have good vision for those kind of endeavors, where you just plan some goal and then put aside everything to acheive that goal, but I have a hard time doing it with a long term goal like finishing college and such things.

This alll sounds like Te polr I know, but I know other ENFjs who have the same problem.

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It's Carefree-ness. EIEs have enough foresight to effectively improvise, but as it's auxiliary they don't plan very far ahead. IEIs, as their dominant preference is time intuition, do.

Philosophical questions. I don't like philosophical questions.

When I try to use :Ni:? The other day Uniden asked me an Ni question. Of course I wouldn't suspect my dual of doing such a thing, so I tried to answer it and just got uncomfortable and unfriendly.

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Originally Posted by Vois

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Originally Posted by Director Abbie

Philosophical questions. I don't like philosophical questions.

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Can you give an example of a philosophical question that you disliked? And how you reacted to it (mentally and verbally)?

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Sorry, I can't both memorize and ignore something. But I'll keep an eye out for a good example.

I say that it's an inability to properly synthesize information. An inability to generalize it, to describe its core essence(s), and to use those essences creatively.

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Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves

I say that it's an inability to properly synthesize information. An inability to generalize it, to describe its core essence(s), and to use those essences creatively.

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Stuff like this that has four words that need defined makes me bounce my eyes around while deciding how to respond, then decide it's not worth my time.

Is that Ni?

That, coupled with the fact that you're just being lazy. =p

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Originally Posted by Director Abbie

Philosophical questions. I don't like philosophical questions.

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Example:

 

If you think about it, aren't all questions philosophical? :thinking:

For me I normally associate my Ni PoLR with not valuing hidden meaning, symbolism and yes philosophical questions. When I see a movie where this is suppose to represent that and this speaks to this persons inner desire to blah blah, I just don't care I often find I can recognize when there is hidden meaning and when something is symbolic, I just have no desire to find out what it is or why.
If I was forced to decipher such things, say for an English paper It makes me uncomfortable.
Not to be confused with concepts such as themes and messages in stories, I find these are quantifiable and purposeful and therefor don't force me to use Ni. This is true for art as well, I see it for what it is, a pretty picture I value the artists technique and skill far more than any deeper meaning associated with the art work.

I have a fairly narrow view of Ni so if you have a broader idea of what you think it is responsible for I will happily tell you how I process that information.

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Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold

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Originally Posted by Director Abbie

Philosophical questions. I don't like philosophical questions.

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Example:

 

If you think about it, aren't all questions philosophical? :thinking:

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No :p

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Originally Posted by moredhel

For me I normally associate my Ni PoLR with not valuing hidden meaning, symbolism and yes philosophical questions. When I see a movie where this is suppose to represent that and this speaks to this persons inner desire to blah blah, I just don't care I often find I can recognize when there is hidden meaning and when something is symbolic, I just have no desire to find out what it is or why.

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Lol, I can tell you this isn't necessarily related to Ni PoLR. Me and Ashton (both LIEs) were discussing this point with Traveler, and basically agreeing with your position.

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Originally Posted by FDG

Lol, I can tell you this isn't necessarily related to Ni PoLR.

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I tend to agree.

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Originally Posted by FDG

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Originally Posted by moredhel

For me I normally associate my Ni PoLR with not valuing hidden meaning, symbolism and yes philosophical questions. When I see a movie where this is suppose to represent that and this speaks to this persons inner desire to blah blah, I just don't care I often find I can recognize when there is hidden meaning and when something is symbolic, I just have no desire to find out what it is or why.

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Lol, I can tell you this isn't necessarily related to Ni PoLR. Me and Ashton (both LIEs) were discussing this point with Traveler, and basically agreeing with your position.

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That's because you ARE Ni POLR and Ashton is a monkey.

Haha oh dear perhaps more of a leading Te thing then...it seem I had a woeful view of Ni I was meaning to brush that one up but I guess there no time like the present.

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Ni is responsible for the estimation of the passage of time, the understanding of a course of processes in time, and forecasting. Ni understand how things may change and evolve over time and throughout history. Ni is acutely aware of events that are occurring outside of the immediate perception of the moment, and sees events as part of a continuous flow. Ni perceives the possible ramifications of future events and notices ties to the past. Ni observes behavioral patterns and can assess a person's character.

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Is what wikipedia says...I'm not really sure how to explain that, I do have a bad sense of time and how long something will take. I am also very present focused. I very easily forget things that happened in the past and don't often let them affect my present. When I think about the future I think in fuzzy optimism, like this is my rough plan I don't tend to detail it. Any details I do decide can be easily changed or forgotten, I am very fluid.

It's weird to think about actually I wonder if other people have a stronger sense of the past than I do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilly

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Originally Posted by FDG

Lol, I can tell you this isn't necessarily related to Ni PoLR. Me and Ashton (both LIEs) were discussing this point with Traveler, and basically agreeing with your position.

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That's because you ARE Ni POLR and Ashton is a monkey.

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C'mon now, LSE is a rather idiotic typing for me.

Ni polr people reject the idea that "thinking" = "working" and worship "drudgery".

I consider :Ni:-Polr to be an aversion to existential questions - questions like "could it be that we have no purpose?" as it's a little bit too not concrete to be seen as of use, and threaten to go around in circles, either concluding nothing substantial, or suggesting some type of nihilistic world view, neither of which an EJ wants. Being weak at intuition, they'd prefer to just avoid the questions than try to come mystical interpretation of the world. I imagine they prefer to say things are "as they are" rather than things having some mystical, other-world nature. To busy themselves with things they need to do in the present, rather than having to bother with unimportant ("unimportant" in the sense that "could it be that we have no purpose?" will either lead you to completely reject your current mode of life, or somehow find an adequate reason to do the task, and thus do the task) existential questions about why to do them.

Also, they have difficulty about thinking of the process of things, and judging the importance of some events compared to other events. Rather, they see a collection of jobs that need to be collected, and take each as they appear, rather than being able to prioritize them well.

Take Mountain Dew's existence, for example. Ponder it deeply :thinking:, and you'll have a pretty good idea of what I think Ni PoLR is about.

Ok, I'll try:

Ni can be seen as the momentum of a situation.

Ni polr have problems dealing with the momentum of a situation. What is too much influence and what is too little? When dealing with the world and other people you have to somehow take into account that things are constantly changing, people are changing, thinking, learning, what seems bad might bee good if you wait 5 minutes. Ni polrs may want to initiate what is already happening, or working against the situation, instead of waiting for a better moment when things would take care of themselves. Other Ni polrs are too relaxed, and don't understand that their input is needed to modify the situation. It can be difficult to be in sync with the flow of things happening. This is just based on my experience with Ni polr.

Nowisthetime provided a nice explanation, I believe.