Beta's Beat

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Originally Posted by redbaron

No, it's not about trying to be cheery. Let's see, how do I explain this? It's about feeling a deeper joy, a real happiness in the middle of the grief. NOT THAT you're not feeling the grief! My goodness, do you think I'm not utterly and completely sad about my uncle? Of course I am! And I cry big, real tears over it. BUT at precisely the same time, I see the beauty in life and in the world. This is not simply my imagination, it's reality. It's SEEING the affirming life that's all around me and choosing to acknowledge its existence while in the middle of your grief. This is not something I've always been able to do and maybe it comes with getting older. But I can choose to blind myself to the beauty, to the life, to God and his love for me and for the world, despite the horrible things that happen, OR I can acknowledge their co-existence. Maybe what you're saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that you can't feel more than one emotion at a time. Well what I'm saying is that I can feel both sorrow and joy simultaneously. Maybe it's as simple as remembering what you have to be grateful for. It's not about tricking yourself into feeling good all the time. Because believe me, I cry nearly every day. And yet, I'm happy. Very happy. (or perhaps I have a multiple personality disorder. :o :))

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i LOVE you!!! yes, yes, yes!!! to find ANYONE who sees and understands things the way i do internally. fuck, that's rare. thank you!

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Originally Posted by redbaron

No, it's not about trying to be cheery. Let's see, how do I explain this? It's about feeling a deeper joy, a real happiness in the middle of the grief. NOT THAT you're not feeling the grief! My goodness, do you think I'm not utterly and completely sad about my uncle? Of course I am! And I cry big, real tears over it. BUT at precisely the same time, I see the beauty in life and in the world. This is not simply my imagination, it's reality. It's SEEING the affirming life that's all around me and choosing to acknowledge its existence while in the middle of your grief. This is not something I've always been able to do and maybe it comes with getting older. But I can choose to blind myself to the beauty, to the life, to God and his love for me and for the world, despite the horrible things that happen, OR I can acknowledge their co-existence. Maybe what you're saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that you can't feel more than one emotion at a time. Well what I'm saying is that I can feel both sorrow and joy simultaneously. Maybe it's as simple as remembering what you have to be grateful for. It's not about tricking yourself into feeling good all the time. Because believe me, I cry nearly every day. And yet, I'm happy. Very happy. (or perhaps I have a multiple personality disorder. :o :))

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So do you think that everyone can experience this underlying joy while still experiencing grief? Do you think everyone has a reason to be joyful despite all they might have been through?

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Originally Posted by Jem

So do you think that everyone can experience this underlying joy while still experiencing grief? Do you think everyone has a reason to be joyful despite all they might have been through?

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i used to believe that, especially as it was shown to me over the years. but, now that i understand that everyone processes life differently, i'm not so sure if others can really experience life this way.

i've coached and done spiritual healing type work with others to help them see and experience life this way but there have been some that just don't get it and i dont know if they ever will, this lifetime anyway. ;)

i'm personally becoming more and more ok with this knowledge that others really do experience life differently and their way is their way and so is "good" too. then, it frees up much of my own internal anger that was brewing and came out, especially in my younger years and to focus it more on going after what i want, not thinking others should "think" the way i do. i HATE anyone "shoulding" me so, i really try to not "should" others.

sorry, kinda spewing right now. :)

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Originally Posted by Jem

How is controlling your internal state different from controlling external objects? The difference is only really a difference in knowledge of what you're controlling. You probably have a better understanding of your internal state than external objects, so it's easier for you to control. I think sigma's analogy is a valid one. "Make a choice to be happy." That's like someone telling a sick person to simply choose health over sickness. Well, duh. But what do I have to do? Just choose. What - you mean I don't have to put any work in myself? You mean I don't have to sort through the stacks of rubbish out there pertaining to health and try to determine what is valid and what isn't? You mean I don't have to have a good knowledge of how my body reacts to things and what it best responds to? You mean I don't have to have the endurance and willpower necessary to get through the bad times, the ability to constantly keep the vision of my goal in mind?

So telling someone to just "choose to be happy" is grossly simplifying what the process entails (just like the archery contest), comes across as smug and patronising, and is especially insulting to those who aren't very aware of their internal states and what does and doesn't affect them.

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Hah, I just realized I'm probably the wrong person to be arguing this point, since I'm constantly being told that I suppress my emotions too much (from guys, wtf?). Ah, well.

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Originally Posted by Jem

So do you think that everyone can experience this underlying joy while still experiencing grief? Do you think everyone has a reason to be joyful despite all they might have been through?

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I don't really know. I know that it used to be hard for ME to see beyond the immediate grief. Because that emotion would sort of take over all the other emotions. I think that being able to see beyond it is a relatively new thing for me. There is so much that is amazing about life, even when it's unfair. The stars, the sky, the gift of rain. I cannot cease to be amazed by those things, even when people I love are taken from me. Reminds me of the film Life is Beautiful.

In no way am I trying to DEVALUE grief or sadness here. I want to make that perfectly clear. Only that there's MORE than that.

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Originally Posted by dbmmama

i used to believe that, especially as it was shown to me over the years. but, now that i understand that everyone processes life differently, i'm not so sure if others can really experience life this way.

i've coached and done spiritual healing type work with others to help them see and experience life this way but there have been some that just don't get it and i dont know if they ever will, this lifetime anyway. ;)

i'm personally becoming more and more ok with this knowledge that others really do experience life differently and their way is their way and so is "good" too. then, it frees up much of my own internal anger that was brewing and came out, especially in my younger years and to focus it more on going after what i want, not thinking others should "think" the way i do. i HATE anyone "shoulding" me so, i really try to not "should" others.

sorry, kinda spewing right now. :)

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"Spewing" as in mad? :o

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Originally Posted by redbaron

I don't really know. I know that it used to be hard for ME to see beyond the immediate grief. Because that emotion would sort of take over all the other emotions. I think that being able to see beyond it is a relatively new thing for me. There is so much that is amazing about life, even when it's unfair. The stars, the sky, the gift of rain. I cannot cease to be amazed by those things, even when people I love are taken from me. Reminds me of the film Life is Beautiful.

In no way am I trying to DEVALUE grief or sadness here. I want to make that perfectly clear. Only that there's MORE than that.

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I agree with you to a large extent. (c: Just wanted to understand where you were coming from. :-P

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Originally Posted by Jem

"Spewing" as in mad? :o

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oh no, more passionate than anything. :) i could talk about this kind of stuff for hours and have even written books on it and then lose all track of time and get "in trouble" irl that way. i've got to stop myself. also, i've had too many people in my life that think i'm a weirdo for thinking and talking about this stuff, i forget that there might be others who actually WANT to talk about it. :)

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Originally Posted by dbmmama

oh no, more passionate than anything. :) i could talk about this kind of stuff for hours and have even written books on it and then lose all track of time and get "in trouble" irl that way. i've got to stop myself. also, i've had too many people in my life that think i'm a weirdo for thinking and talking about this stuff, i forget that there might be others who actually WANT to talk about it. :)

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http://content.funnyhumor.com/pictures/flycat.jpg

But seriously :p, I do find this sort of thing interesting to talk about.

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Originally Posted by Jem

http://content.funnyhumor.com/pictures/flycat.jpg

But seriously :p, I do find this sort of thing interesting to talk about.

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lol :)

for me, it's easier irl to go back and forth with it all. online is good because irl i dont really find people who like to talk about this stuff. but, irl, the energy of back and forth exchange is so much more powerful/exciting. :) i don't sit still, my arms are a-flailing, etc. :) i've realized that it kinda freaks some/a lot of people out and so, unfortunately go the opposite extreme and end up not talking much at all. hence, the mostly shy my whole life....the emotional charge of my passion of my "vision" or ideal is too much for most, especially my mom and sis growing up and so retreated into a "safe" shell. it's easier to come out online.

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Originally Posted by Jem

So do you think that everyone can experience this underlying joy while still experiencing grief? Do you think everyone has a reason to be joyful despite all they might have been through?

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I think everybody can. The ability is in each and every one of us.
Unfortunately, not everybody will do this. People are unaware of this ability.
They are asleep.... and they have nightmares.

I'm going through something similar to what redbaron is going through. My dad is dying of liver cancer caused by too much alcohol. It is painful for me to see him like this, it is even more painful to see that he lost all hope and joy. Instead of following doctors orders and follow the treatment he chose to continue drinking.

I can look at this and feel sad or I can look at this and find meaning. The pain is still present but at one point it stopped hurting so much. In that specific moment I realized that he is dying now to show me first hand the effects of alcohol SO THAT I WOULDN'T HAVE TO LEARN IT ON MY OWN. I see his suffering as a sacrifice for me.

The human mind is a meaning making machine and from this meaning.... we derive both our pleasure and pain.

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Originally Posted by onetreehilluver

Okay Ezra I'll start posting more so I'm not one of those people :P

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Choice. The more attractive young women we can get posting the more appealing this site looks. Not to mention, many a fine specimen posts frequently already.

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Originally Posted by redbaron

Really? That's super interesting.

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Yeah, apparently the fact that their innocence was taken away from them by this indestructible machine gave them a furious, nothing-to-lose air about them. I can sense the feeling now; I get it a lot, but I can expect they get it ten times worse. It's an immense anger at pure injustice and helplessness. You just want to scream and fight and nuke the bastards, but you know it will achieve nothing. It's totally understandable why a lot of Holocaust survivors feel what they do. The only worthy human being of ******'s high command was Rommel, and that's because he had respect for all human beings, as well as being a fantastic commander.

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Originally Posted by Jem

How is controlling your internal state different from controlling external objects?

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Cuz it's easier.

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In theory you can choose to be happy... but if you did not master how to alter your thinking... you will fail! If everyone would natively be able to control their inner state you will not have this wide spread epidemics of depression.

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You're still focusing too much on externals. Hitting a bullseye won't necessarily make you happy. You'd simply get praised and be happy from other people's amusement with you for hitting a bullseye, which has nothing to do with *your* inner guidance and happiness. People would ooh and ahh and clap, but what about all the other areas of your life? You're simply talking about performing well, and placing your happiness in other people's hands.

Just think about it. Say you're practicing by yourself. You do VERY well. It's human nature only then to show off and tell others about it. The true test of inner happiness is being able to do something well and not resorting to typical 3 type American bullshit. I'd rather have inner happiness than external happiness. Because I can't rely or really make other people's choices for them. I suppose I could. But I'd just rather not. (also speaks to my strong anti-fascism and anti-authority values)

Also the absence of happiness isn't necessarily the presence of depression. I would say that most people aren't really that happy, but they feel 'good enough.'

Different types, depending on who you are can perform well even if they are miserable. Performance and good thinking still doesn't have much to do with basic happiness IMO. I dislike the worship of 3s in our society.

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Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves

You're still focusing too much on externals. Hitting a bullseye won't necessarily make you happy. You'd simply get praised and be happy from other people's amusement with you for hitting a bullseye, which has nothing to do with *your* inner guidance and happiness. People would ooh and ahh and clap, but what about all the other areas of your life? You're simply talking about performing well, and placing your happiness in other people's hands.

Just think about it. Say you're practicing by yourself. You do VERY well. It's human nature only then to show off and tell others about it. The true test of inner happiness is being able to do something well and not resorting to typical 3 type American bullshit. I'd rather have inner happiness than external happiness. Because I can't rely or really make other people's choices for them. I suppose I could. But I'd just rather not. (also speaks to my strong anti-fascism and anti-authority values)

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all of this is close to my heart. :) i love reading when someone says what i've fought for in many areas of my life and the lives of my children and all children. *This* is how i homeschool and raise my kids...based on allowing their inner guidance to show them their way, in their own time.

Oh yeah I'm a big advocate for homeschooling kids. The public school system is a death trap. You're so wise to avoid it.

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Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves

You're simply talking about performing well, and placing your happiness in other people's hands.

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Actually no. Happiness is an inside job but you can use service to others to raise your happiness levels. Performing well in service of others or, as Socionics will have it, using your ego functions, creates flow and flow leads to higher levels of happiness.

Work implies some sort of exertion to me. I think you just basically have to endure bad feelings. Yeah that's the most accurate word. Don't try to make them go away, just experience them and move on.

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Performing well in service of others or, as Socionics will have it, using your ego functions, creates flow and flow leads to higher levels of happiness.

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That's not true internal happiness though. That's not 'the voice within', inner guidance that I'm talking about. Of course anybody that performs well becomes happy, they get praised. I'm talking about the basic, pure form of internal inner inner happiness (lol) that comes from basic trusting yourself even if you can't perform well, or don't- for whatever reason.

Socionics is about the society I realize, but I wasn't talking about socionics. Just long-term internal happiness. Which means you have to ignore the western values of performing and pick-up some good books on eastern values of internal comfort.

Without internal happiness how would you keep going or keep trying or keep on performing better?

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Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves

Of course anybody that performs well becomes happy, they get praised.

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Happiness that comes from performing well is not related to praise but to flow. Engagement creates happiness. Or as Tal Ben-Shahar put it... the intersection between meaning and pleasure. If you do something you like doing, you get pleasure and if this "doing" is in the service of others, or better said, for a higher than yourself, meaningful cause, you get a higher degree of happiness... you become happier.

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Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica

It is important to not give anyone the impression they should force away bad feelings.

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That's very important indeed. Trying to fight bad feelings is like trying not to think of a pink elephant. The more you try, the more you fail.

I think that the correct attitude is that from the Litany against fear:

"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain. "

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Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves

Work implies some sort of exertion to me. I think you just basically have to endure bad feelings. Yeah that's the most accurate word. Don't try to make them go away, just experience them and move on.

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Yes, I agree with this. Allow yourself to feel them. There's no real work involved.

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Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica

Just wanted to comment on the idea of people forcing themselves to change their "state of mind". It is important to not give anyone the impression they should force away bad feelings. They really shouldn't.

I get what you talk about when you say "work". It means to go into the pain and face your fears. But it could all be seen as if you should just push away bad feelings. If you do, then you'll be completely drained sooner or later. You must not flee bad feelings, you must work through them.

Flight is a normal human reaction. But it's not doing anything good except getting you through an initial crisis, if there is one.

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yes, it kinda goes with LOA. an emotion that is pushed away just pushes back in other forms in your life. it comes back to haunt you later. instead, allowing it *BE* in you and allowing it to flow in it's natural course will give you *more* on the other side of it. to me, this is the joy and sorrow at the same time thing. joy at knowing you're allowing the emotion to be while experiencing the sorrow or whatever...