INTp or INFp?

Ok So I decided to give this a try, and try to get the forum's help in finding my type.

:wink:

Ive taken tons of online MBTI tests and always score as either ENFP, ENTP, INTP, or INFP. one time I took a very very crappy test and scored as ISTp, but that shouldnt even count since the test was so unreliable. Once I took an experimental MBTI test and scored as INFJ but the test makers said it was just experimental and I shouldnt trust it too much. When I took the socionics type assistant I scored as INTp the first time. The second time I took it was much later but I came out INxP because I hadnt chosen enough words for the test to make the decision. So I took the test again and came out INTp.

For some time I though I may have been INTj because of my intellectual pursuits, but I dont see how I could be Judging. I dont think Im INTj, because my personality seems to be more about taking in new information and discovering new things than aboout judging information.

So lets look at the test results: All the types that i genrally score as have iNtuition as the dominant function. There seems to be a pattern here. Plus when I look at the description of different functions, I think that iNtuition is what I identify with the most(both introverted and extroverted intiution), whereas the other functions i dont really know how strong they are in my psyche.

So I think its probably that out of the four functions, iNtuition is my dominant one.

That leaves me with what I started: I could be INTp, ENTp, INFp or ENFp.

Now I dont think I am an extrovert due to the fact that Im more solitary than I am sociable, and although I enjoy socializing, I often find myself alone. I dont know why, its not something I do very deliberatly, it just sort of spontaneously happens. So, knowing myself I would say that its introversion that is dominant and not extroversion.

That leaves me with two types: INFp and INTp.

What I would like to ask the forum is this: How do you tell the two types apart? What are some the differences between INFp and INTp? I know about the tie breaker question on the socionics type assistant, but I would like to here what this site has to say. Im not asking you guys to tell me what me type is, Im just asking what some of the diffrences between INTP and INFP are.

Thanks in advance,

-Cheerio

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Originally Posted by Cheerio

Ok So I decided to give this a try, and try to get the forum's help in finding my type.

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We shall do our best, though I am afraid it will not amount to much. We have gone through countless examples trying to differentiate between INTJs and INTPs, and yet no one has yet reached certainty over their own type thanks to our help, and, quite frankly, I doubt you will either.

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Originally Posted by Cheerio

So lets look at the test results: All the types that i genrally score as have iNtuition as the dominant function. There seems to be a pattern here. Plus when I look at the description of different functions, I think that iNtuition is what I identify with the most(both introverted and extroverted intiution), whereas the other functions i dont really know how strong they are in my psyche.

So I think its probably that out of the four functions, iNtuition is my dominant one.

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I am afraid this sense of inner certainty does not guarantee the correctness of your judgment, for I too thought I was clearly a dominant intuitive type, yet my dominant/first/lead/program/base function is Fi. We can only be aware of our own minds and thus it can be very difficult to judge how your experience of your consciousness is similar or different from others. I hope others can be of more assistance.

If you were INFP you wouldn't be having problems with the exact type.

I know about 20 INFPs with wide range of... IQ and they all took it for about 5-6 mins max always scoring INFP with the first attempt.

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Originally Posted by CuriousSoul

We shall do our best, though I am afraid it will not amount to much. We have gone through countless examples trying to differentiate between INTJs and INTPs, and yet no one has yet reached certainty over their own type thanks to our help, and, quite frankly, I doubt you will either.

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Well, thanks replying :)
I doubt I will. I wasnt trying to find certainty about my type but I was hoping someone could help me point out some differences between INFP and INTp to as to better see which resembles me.

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I am afraid this sense of inner certainty does not guarantee the correctness of your judgment, for I too thought I was clearly a dominant intuitive type, yet my dominant/first/lead/program/base function is Fi. We can only be aware of our own minds and thus it can be very difficult to judge how your experience of your consciousness is similar or different from others. I hope others can be of more assistance.

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Thats an interesting point you make. Its true that you cant see how your conscioussness differnciates from others and thus you could mistake your dominant function.

Its a good point you make, because supposedly the easiest thing to tell is if you are sensing or iNuitive, so people who realize that they are sensing or intuitive before they realize whether they are feeling or thinking might assume that their sensing or intuition is their most devolpped function without considering if feling or thinking could be their most devellopped function.

If your lead function is Fi, I imagine your the type of person who doesnt change his or her mind too often? And you are very spontaneous, but more deliberate in your actions? I hope these questions dont bug you, and im sorry if they do, but Im wondering how you know you are a judging type as opposed to a perceiving type. Because when I read description of rations vs irrationals, irrational seems to correspond to me and not rational, and on tests I always score as irrational. Thats how I know I am perceiving and not just through intuitive inner certainty(though that plays a part too) :)

I'd say that you are INTp. You showed a great skills to manipualte with facts and to draw conclusions. This looked a lot like NT thing,specially Ni+Te thing. INFp doesn't trust it's abilities to make conclusions on facts because it's a Te function and INFp feels uncomfortable and shy by doing it.

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Originally Posted by Cheerio

Well, thanks replying :)
I doubt I will. I wasnt trying to find certainty about my type but I was hoping someone could help me point out some differences between INFP and INTp to as to better see which resembles me.

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One way of approaching this issue could be to just look at the pictures of the two ultimate übergeeks:

Bill Gates INTP
He has often been falsely typed as ENTJ, and G-d knows what, but I have developed something of a sixth sense for detecting INTPs, initially for personal reasons mainly female INTPs, but the differences between the sexes are often not that great. Therefore I can say with some degree of confidence that he looks and smiles like an INTP and he is an INTP. His smile is not the salesmanlike role function smile of ENTJs, but a classic INTP smile, often slightly shy and akward, appearing on his face not so much as a reaction to anything happening around him, but rather as if arising from within, perhaps an external symptom of their hidden agenda to love, or reflecting the INTPs introverted intuition Ni, internal wholeness or belief, that I seem to be so singularly lacking.


And if you do not take my word for it, just compare the type descriptions, first INTP:
http://www.socionics.com/prof/intp.htm
and then ENTJ,
http://www.socionics.com/prof/entj.htm


http://perso.wanadoo.fr/metasystems/..._Davos2004.jpg

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/98...bill.gates.jpg

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/img/14/0,1886,2298670,00.jpg

http://www.vg.no/dataoginternett/bil...oisme/bill.jpg


Linus Torvalds INFP
He has often been typed as an INTP by the MBTI folks, and g-d knows what by the socionists, but just look at him, he is obviously an ethical type. The spontaneous expression is Fe, he is creative with ethics of emotions, "the external attitudes" One of the things that helped me determine my own type was observing ISFPs and INFPs more closely. There is a difference in the way how a smile appears on their faces quite naturally in almost any situation, and the way I have to kind of convert Fi to Fe - in order to smile naturally I need to first "work myself into frenzy", it is often just a small step and may not be visible to the outside, but nevertheless it takes conscious effort and thus Fe is clearly not my creative function, or spontaneous expression.

So look at these two sets of pictures and try to see which one fits you better, it can be difficult to judge how you look to others so it may be worth asking for a second opinion.

http://www.adlandia.dk/images/Linus140x203.jpg

http://www.computec.ch/dokumente/uni...m/torvalds.jpg

http://www.javaopenbusiness.com/docs.war/linus.jpg

http://www.toolsatwork.at/dtp/Bilder/torvalds.jpg

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Originally Posted by Cheerio

If your lead function is Fi, I imagine your the type of person who doesnt change his or her mind too often? And you are very spontaneous, but more deliberate in your actions? I hope these questions dont bug you, and im sorry if they do, but Im wondering how you know you are a judging type as opposed to a perceiving type. Because when I read description of rations vs irrationals, irrational seems to correspond to me and not rational, and on tests I always score as irrational. Thats how I know I am perceiving and not just through intuitive inner certainty(though that plays a part too) :)

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I promised to write about this earlier, but then came to have second thoughts. I have gone through most of the reasons already in my previous posts, but I shall put up a short post later this week summarizing some of the reasons that caused me to change my type from INFP to INFJ. What gave me the final sense of confidence was the relations of benefit I thought at first she was ISFJ, then came to realize she was INTP - and therefore I am INFJ. Thus my method is probably of limited use to others.

I think Bill Gate's facial expression resembles me more.



I think im INTp because when i write it doesnt resemble the way INFps write. Ive been on message boards with INFps and they almost always talk the same way. I dont resmble their way of talking because I sound too intellectual and I use big words to express myself whereas INFps dont sound that way.

Edited for gayness.

I've got to heavily disagree with Curious on the Linus Torvalds typage as INFp. INTp possibly, INTj more likely. I'm sorry, you don't write a computer operating system kernel without logic in your ego. It just doesn't work at all. I've used his programs and looked at his computer code for over 8 years, starting when I was 13. Let me describe INTjs and INTps in technical fields and their strengths in them.

INTjs are excellent and quick troubleshooters, due to their introverted logic. They are very quick to understand a computer system(considering it's introverted logic nature, 0 or 1) or program. They are good at copying, reverse engineering, etc.
INTps are excellent at building computer systems, because of their ability to see the usefulness of such over time. They are good at starting from scratch and building something complicated and reliable.

Linus Torvald's operating system kernel was a clone of another kernel, called minix, created by his teacher(i think). Which was a clone of the great ol UNIX/POSIX family of operating systems which now underly Macs, Novell, and are basically your other choice besides Microsoft.

Now while Microsoft might be stereotypical ENTj, I think you may be on to something with Bill Gates being INTp. He is definately NOT ENTp or INTj. His company shocked the computer market by commercializing hobbyist software which was traditionally shared for status and ... well... hobby among the community. The gist is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Letter_to_Hobbyists
I can't imagine an ENTj being a terribly good hacker although an INTp telling Big Blue(IBM) a huge fucking lie about having software he didn't have is also hard to imagine. I don't know, it's not my quadra.

Edited for gayness.

http://www.yle.fi/linna98/photos/photo46_i.jpg

I have come to think that Linus Torvalds is actually ENFP.
I shall write more later, but just look at his wife Tove. It was not her warm and fuzzy feminine qualities that attracted him, I still think I got Bill Gates right though.

I think Gates is a terribly intellegent ENTj, possibly INTp. Cone, could you ever imagine posing like that? I don't know any INTps that would, although I could see an ENTj doing that.

Can anyone come up with any software code actually written by Bill Gates??

As far as typing Linus Torvalds as a non NT, I seriously seriously doubt that. I could post some code actually written by Linus Torvalds to show how I think he's an INTj, but I don't think I have enough webspace. An extrovert without thinking in the ego??? Do you know what he's written and what he does currently?? The past jobs he has had as developer of processor architecture???

If you want to claim an NF billionaire, I think you should look at Steve Jobs.

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Originally Posted by admin

I think Gates is a terribly intellegent ENTj, possibly INTp. Cone, could you ever imagine posing like that? I don't know any INTps that would, although I could see an ENTj doing that.

Can anyone come up with any software code actually written by Bill Gates??

As far as typing Linus Torvalds as a non NT, I seriously seriously doubt that. I could post some code actually written by Linus Torvalds to show how I think he's an INTj, but I don't think I have enough webspace. An extrovert without thinking in the ego??? Do you know what he's written and what he does currently?? The past jobs he has had as developer of processor architecture???

If you want to claim an NF billionaire, I think you should look at Steve Jobs.

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I always kinda thought Steve Jobs was entp.

Bill is ENTJ. He has Gamma mentality. And he is NT + doesn't feel himself afraid in centre of room, which is a sign of E in my humble oppinnion. So Gamma, N,E=ENTJ in my eyes.

Author of Linux is ENTP. No INTP would step so close to another person to pose. You're I, CuriousSoul, do you step so close do another person, when you are in good mood, but not alone with somebody?

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Originally Posted by admin

As far as typing Linus Torvalds as a non NT, I seriously seriously doubt that. I could post some code actually written by Linus Torvalds to show how I think he's an INTj, but I don't think I have enough webspace. An extrovert without thinking in the ego??? Do you know what he's written and what he does currently?? The past jobs he has had as developer of processor architecture???

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The ego block comparison is invalid, ENFPs just do not function like that. Logic and any code they scribble is just another toy to play with, not their source of confidence. Linus Torvalds is a purebred ENFP all the way through, and by no means the only one of his kind. You find plenty of FP men in science and engineering, hardly any FJs though, the women are almost all logical types; sample size on the short side. :wink:

Tove, kindergarden teacher and karate champion, should be ISTP. I should have more time to write on sunday, just read his book Just for Fun. I loaned it from the library for the second time, it will take some time...

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Originally Posted by admin

If you want to claim an NF billionaire, I think you should look at Steve Jobs.

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I do not know Steve Jobs. He has not been on Finnish TV giving interviews in both Finnish and Swedish.

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I think Gates is a terribly intellegent ENTj, possibly INTp. Cone, could you ever imagine posing like that? I don't know any INTps that would, although I could see an ENTj doing that.

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Well, since I'm not an INTp anymore, I can't say. But he definitely looks nothing like me, but possibly like my ENTj friend (maybe, I'll have to look into that).

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Originally Posted by Transigent

In my (often wrong) opinion:
Gates - ENTJ or INTJ (google "pedals around the rose" or something like that, he solved the problem by MEMORIZING pattern, i.e. he doesn't trust his intuition as much as he trusts logic.):

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Or he trusts his memory (intuition of time) more than his ability to reason (logic). A question of definition, but I would say that introverted intuition is largely about memory.

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Originally Posted by Transigent

That smile is not from inner peace, it is from being a multi-billionare!
The other guy - ENTP / maybe some chance INTP
I find it hard to believe that it is easier for someone to write a giant computer program (while never being sure they understand the logic behind it) than it is for that person to spontaneously smile.:

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Originally Posted by admin

Can anyone come up with any software code actually written by Bill Gates??

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But the point is that how you smile is related to to your type - how well you can write a giant computer program really isn't - if indeed he ever wrote one. People smile in most different ways and one might be initially inclined to claim that smiling cannot be relevant to the personality type someone has - but of course it is! Otherwise visual identification would not work either - and it does - at least sometimes... There are typical facial expressions and gestures peculiar to every type, or perhaps rather closer to the point for every subtype - and what I am saying is that in my experience the way Bill Gates smiles falls very closely in line with one set of INTPs - a claim that I am unable to back up at this stage, but maybe later...

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Originally Posted by Transigent

I smile so much sometimes that my face almost falls off, and I ain't an ethical type.
Hey, but I am probably wrong.
Oh well, it does feel nice to at least ACT like I know what I am talking about! HAHAHA! :wink:

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What makes you so sure you are not an ethical type? You are even willing to admit you could be wrong. :P Now that we have more information available you should check this page:
http://socionika.com/tipolog/Logic_and_Ethics.htm
You probably are a logical type, but just in case... Think also in terms of the intertype relations, what do you want from the love of your life? Ethical types are not necessarily "nice" or agreeable in any way, the MBTI definitions of "pie in the sky" idealists are often quite heavily flawed.

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Originally Posted by admin

A side note: Bill Gates: stereotypical ENTj. Who would have the balls to lie to the big guys at the biggest computer company at the time, then go buy the software for cheap in WA they he told IBM he already had? And look at how Microsoft has been managed from it's conception.

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http://oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=2...gates&start=30

Well since my claim based on VI and the type descriptions did not convince anyone, I should try to explain myself: "INTPs normal facial expressions usually reflect wisdom and great life experience or sadness and victimisation." This is true in most cases - but not in all - and only when I realized this, initially thanks to somebody typing William Jefferson Clinton as an INTP, did it dawn on me that my own type could also be wrong. For it occurs that happiness too is all - or at least largely - in the genes, and thus it logically follows that even some INTPs should be quite happy, and perhaps some of them even most of the time:

As economists, psychologists and biologists try to determine what makes a person happy or unhappy, one factor stands out as especially powerful. To a large degree, it seems, happiness is inherited.
The strongest evidence comes from a study of identical twins conducted by David Lykken, now a professor emeritus at the University of Minnesota. Some 60% of the likelihood that twins separated at birth will describe themselves as happy is accounted for by common genetic factors, not environmental differences in their lives.

But biology may play a huge role in happiness, through an untold number of genes involved in forming personality. Which means that economists in this field may have much to learn from biologists. Tim Ketelaar, a psychologist at New Mexico State University, notes that economists discovered that losses loom much larger than gains in our decisions--and Ketelaar's own work has shown that the same holds true for students' grades. Those with high grades aren't happier than those with low ones, but both groups are upset when their grades drop. Economists were surprised by this, but ecologists studying birds discovered the same thing. A misstep costs an animal the future, while a success helps it only a little.
http://www.forbes.com/sciencesandmed...happiness.html

So most INTPS do indeed not look like Bill Gates - but some of them do. And I believe his "inner peace", or relatively highly set standard point of happiness is related to him "having the balls to lie to the big guys." For happiness easily seems like such a wonderful state that one is bound to wonder why it often seems so rare, and since happiness appears to be largely under genetic control the evolutionary answer must be that there are costs involved. What all these costs are is difficult to say, but at least two come to mind. First of all emotions are essentially motivating drives, we do many things for the sake of our unalienable right, the pursuit of happiness, and things that tend to make people happy in the short term, like eating and drinking well, having sex, spending time with friends, earning a promotion etc. are similar to things that were likely to increase the likelihood of the survival of our genes already in the distant past. Too little happiness leads to depression and passivity, but also too high a state of happiness can make people complacent and lazy, perhaps some people do not want to quit using drugs because the euphoria they create can be more enjoyable than anything else they can experience.

On the other hand negative emotions too exist because they have been both useful and often necessary, the world is - and especially was - full of dangers lurking behind every corner, and individuals who did not stay alert and failed to detect them were probably less likely to survive. When people are blissfully happy they do not tend to be well aware of all potential dangers, and as the article I quoted above mentioned, it is generally better in the long run to err on the side of caution and avoid dangers than to ignore risks and grasp every opportunity - unless you are playing a high stakes game of "cornering the market" where the Winner takes it all.

I remember reading a more relevant study, but could not find the link now, but it is quite possibly that a permanently higher state of happiness is similar to being in love, people become more daring and less afraid of potential dangers and negative consequences of their actions:

Among other areas, parts of the pre-frontal cortex; a bit of the brain towards the front and implicated in social judgment seems to get switched off when we are in love and when we love our children, as do areas linked with the experience of negative emotions such as aggression and fear as well as planning. The parts of the brain deactivated form a network which are implicated in the evaluation of trustworthiness of others and basically critical social assessment.
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002183.html

Finally still, why not ENTJ? As there is no way to verify the real type of Bill Gates, this is inevitably just speculation, but in addition to his smile, a few things come to my mind:
First of all: Introverts have bigger balls.
This is not instantly obvious, but introverts live in a subjective world. Things the extrovert takes for granted or feels compelled to act upon, the introvert may take apart or choose to ignore. For an introvert: Ties are unchanging, qualities of object are changeable; adapts qualities of objects to better fit their relationships Once Bill Gates had established the relationship with IBM, whether he had the actual program at that moment did not seem like a big deal. It is also worth looking at the rational/irrational scale, does this kind of behavior show signs of low uncertainty tolerance characteristic of rational types? Or does it fit better with irrationality, ability to: act decisively in unstable circumstances improvising; changing plans midstream; doing several tasks at once.

Or let us still look at the functions: first according to Sergei Ganin, from INTJ or INTP?

"Let's take a look at INTJ's main function - introverted thinking (). INTJs are mainly interested in accumulating an understanding. They want to know why and what causes things happen the way they happen. They want to know and see the logic behind everything. If "it" does not contradict logic then "it" is right, otherwise "it" is wrong.
INTPs logic is their area of creativity. This makes their logic circumstantial and unpredictable - the rules apply here but may not apply there."
http://www.socionics.com/advan/intjorintp.htm

Correspondingly for an ENTJ extroverted thinking Te, or business logic, would be "the unshakeable foundation", and introverted intuition "inner wholeness" Ni, the creative function. I would venture to say that your can trust your own beliefs more if they are your base function. Like some of the suspected-to-be INTPs here have mentioned, "the only thing I have been able to trust are my beliefs." Similarly Bill Gates very much acted as if extroverted logic is his creative function, "the rules apply here but maybe not there". ENTJs again would typically make good corporate warriors ascending the steps of hierarchy driven by they hidden agenda to be wealthy, but because extroverted logic is their receiving base function they would typically tend to lack creativity when forced to independently face challenges to which there are no external answers available. Also having read The Road Ahead by Bill Gates, he certainly comes across as man to whom "It is important (for an INTP) to be involved with someone, to have an object of affection, to like people", a quality that undoubtedly helped him in building Microsoft. And just look at the way he dresses and the way he writes and talks about his fortune and fame. These are not sensitive issues to him. On the other hand the world's richest man never really was well known as a great ladies man. One may wonder why... Then there are intertype relations, but perhaps sometimes it really is better to keep silent than to make sílly guesses.

I am a lady from Hong Kong.

I have the exact same problem with telling whether I am INTP or INFP.

Most of my test results indicate that I am an INTP. A couple other results say that I am an INFP. But I am not always sure of my own answers when answering some of the questions of the tests regarding T/F.

Just a couple of questions. I do make decisions/judgements based on my personal values mostly (Feeling?), but most of my values are developed through a lot of private thoughts (Thinking?). I mean I don't actually make decisions based on "blind" values, but more so, on "objective" ones. Somehow I believe that EVERYONE does the same.

If this is true,

1. Should there be any difference between T/F types at all? What are the major differences?

2. Am I a Feeling or Thinking type?

I would appreciate very much your/anyone's thoughts on this.

Thanks a lot.

VivPhilos

P.S. A very detailed and excellent site of INTP profile does match me pretty well. Have a look if you are interested:

http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html

Edited for gayness.

Hi, Pedro-the-Lion,

Thanks for your reply. So I am most likely an INTP? Actually I feel like one too, but some people don't see me "cold/cool" enough" to be the "Thinking" type, but that's only when they have known me a little better, most people think I am kind of "aloof/distant" when they first know me - as quite many people have told me.

Actually you are also right about the P/J options too. I present a lot of "P" tendencies such as delaying things occassionally and being (usually 5-10 minutes late) to meetings and so on, but I am extremely uncomfortable with this trait of my own, so from time to time, I would get myself "organized" properly. However, with things I am more interested in, I could be pretty "organized" about them and would be even "on time". This might be the reason that I am also torn between P and J, somehow also depending on the stages of my life I am going through.

Anyway, thanks again for your reply, let me know if you have more to say on INTP/J or INFP/J.

Viv

Hi, Pedro-the-Lion,

Thanks for your reply. So I am most likely an INTP? Actually I feel like one too, but some people don't see me "cold/cool" enough" to be the "Thinking" type, but that's only when they have known me a little better, most people think I am kind of "aloof/distant" when they first meet me - as quite many people have told me.

Actually you are also right about the P/J options too. I present a lot of "P" tendencies such as delaying things occassionally and being (usually 5-10 minutes late) to meetings and so on, but I am extremely uncomfortable with this trait of my own, so from time to time, I would get myself "organized" properly. However, with things that seem more "important/urgent", I could be pretty "organized" about them and would be even "on time". This might be the reason that I am also torn between P and J, somehow also depending on the stages of my life I am going through.

Anyway, thanks again for your reply, let me know if you have more to say on INTP/J or INFP/J.

Viv

Being late or arriving at time is the matter on intuition, F and T + P and J.
NTP,NTJ,NFJ types are never late, but ENFPs and INFPs are. That's because they have weak thinking function so they can't think thrgough all the steps to become on time.

And INTP is never late. And that mbti INTP site description is written so catchy and emotinal way that everione would like to be INTP and who are not are made to think they are INTPs cause of the stile. But there are mentioned Ti and this could also be the balsam for your hidden agenda, which in INFPs is Ti and INFP wpuld be very happy to know how good it is in logical understandigns or argumentations. Socionics INTP, how ever, has Fe as painfull function so that emotional talking might actually make INTP to feel embrased and to give feeling to step oway form that kind of emotionalism.

Hi, Kaido21,

Thanks for your response and good tips.

I am a little confused with what you said below:

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Being late or arriving at time is the matter on intuition, F and T + P and J. NTP,NTJ,NFJ types are never late, but ENFPs and INFPs are. That's because they have weak thinking function so they can't think thrgough all the steps to become on time.

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Thanks for pointing out that being late is a matter on intuition other than P/J. But I have difficulty in understanding exactly what this means. So I wonder if it is possible if you could show me a couple of theoretical foundation/sources (e.g. a psychological theory or a website) of why you've mentioned what you've mentioned here? I would truly appreciate it, as I am really curious.

On the other hand, as far as I know, Thinking function is not an indication of IQ or ability to think (e.g. ability to think through steps) in any sense. So I believe that Feeling types could be as intelligent as Thinkers, and the Feelers (e.g. ENFP, INFP) don't/shouldn't really have a "weaker" thinking function than any other Thinkers (consciously or unconsciously). Surely, in my opinion, if the Feelers want to (or, if it is important enough), they should be able to think through the steps to become on time too, just like the Thinkers, especially that (probably) most Feelers would FEEL that being on time is important, since it maybe no fair to keep others waiting unnecessarily.

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And INTP is never late. And that mbti INTP site description is written so catchy and emotinal way that everione would like to be INTP and who are not are made to think they are INTPs cause of the stile. But there are mentioned Ti and this could also be the balsam for your hidden agenda, which in INFPs is Ti and INFP wpuld be very happy to know how good it is in logical understandigns or argumentations.

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Thanks for the suggestion. I don't know if everyone wants to be an INTP, but I must say that I am pretty much the opposite to those who fancy being an INTP instead of INFP. I have made deliberate effort to be more sensitive towards others' feelings by being more F, and by paying more attention to the moral aspects of things (judging based on values other than "objectivity"/"logic") the last couple of years due to the fact that, in my previous life, my love for "logic" and intellectual debates as well as my frankness (a typical Thinking trait, I suppose) had been somehow offensive to some people, although I didn't mean it at all at the time. According to Jung, we can change our personality type (to balance ourselves better) by calling our unconscious type into consciousness, e.g. in my particular case, changing T to F, or vice versa. This is why I am hoping that I have now "improved" myself a little more by becoming more of a F type instead of the same T (that is, if I were ever a true INTP a couple of years ago).

But I do understand what you mean by "everyone wants to be an INTP". INTP Type description probably gives most people the impression that they/INTPs must be more intelligent or creative. But I can confidently say that this is NOT always the case.

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Socionics INTP, however, has Fe as painfull function so that emotional talking might actually make INTP to feel embrased and to give feeling to step oway form that kind of emotionalism.

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Yes and no in my own case, if I am a typical INTP still. When I am in my "argumentative" mode, I naturally can't care about anyone's and my own feelings of course, so I am simply NOT "feeling" anything except finding the "truth" of facts. But when I am more "feeling" conscious (which INTPs could also be, from time to time), or when I am more relaxed, "emotional talks" (do you mean talking about feelings?) is no problem at all, especially with people close to me.

Anyway, thanks for your input and hope to hear from you/anyone soon with further comments.

Viv

Hi, Cheerio (and ALL),

My apology to you all that I just "jumped in" your previous messages just like that, also hope that I didn't interrupt your previous communications with other memebers, e.g. CuriousSoul and Cone. The reason I "jumped in" yours instead of opening a new discussion is that I find your reasons of "confusion" of your own type including INTP or INFP (in the Oldest First message) are VERY similar to my own, in fact, in almost all ways you've described.

Please feel free to continue your previous discussions, or to respond to my messages, and I will try my best to respond to yours and other members' too, if I can.

Thank you.

Viv

I am not in a thinking mood at the moment, but when trieng to answer to your questions I have to say it's all very much intuition based, what I sayd before. Intuition is the function related do time like Sensing is the function related to space. Intuitives controll the time and sensors controll the space. And by reading your posts where I found out how well you know your self I was convinced you are INTp because I have seen INTps describing them selfs and I have to say they know well about them selfs, which I wouldn't say about INFps who are eager to hear how others logically analize them.

Here's a very, very rough test:


I hate reading. (INTp)

My mother can't stop reading. (INFp)

Whoever said that all Te's like to read needs to be shot.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

People depend on me for my knowledge and intelligence. (INTp)

People depend on my mom for optimism and motherly caring. (INFp)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I've never, ever had an 'intuition' in the mystical sense. (INTp)

My mother gets 'intuitions' constantly. (INFp)

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I can't take people who try to evoke any types of emotions out of me. (INTp)

My mother can't take people who know what they're talking about. (INFp)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I constantly forget things, and I like to get to appointments exactly when they begin. (INTp)

My mother also constantly forgets things, and she likes to get to appointments at least 15 minutes before they begin. (INFp)

The reason my mother hates to get anywhere late is because she hates being noticed in this respect. For people to 'know she was late' is unbearable for her.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't stand my mother approaching me to give me emotional support (like hugging or congratulating.) (INTp)

My mother can't stand how I 'push away' from her attempts to give me emotional support. (INFp)

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope that helps.


Your INTp friend,

Cone

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kaido21

Intuition is the function related do time like Sensing is the function related to space. Intuitives controll the time and sensors controll the space.

---

A nice surprise again, Kaido. Although I don't understand it completely, somehow it makes sense.

Quote:

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And by reading your posts where I found out how well you know your self I was convinced you are INTp because I have seen INTps describing them selfs and I have to say they know well about them selfs, which I wouldn't say about INFps who are eager to hear how others logically analize them.

---

I also suspect I might be a "hopeless" INTp too, most of the time, whether I like it or not :lol:

Thanks again.

Viv

Wow, Cone,

Thanks for the comparisons. This is the most practical way to explain the differences I have ever seen!

I agree so much with the differences you've demonstrated here (that is, if I am an INTP). I have a male friend who is a typical ENFP, and he acts so similar to your Mom, while I act more like you - it seems more obvious when I am around my ENFP friend.

Here are my own comparisons ( after == ) between my ENFP friend and me, when we are together.


[I hate reading. (INTp) == I would try to avoid reading too, if I can, unless it is extremely interesting and necessary.

My mother can't stop reading. (INFp) == Same for my ENFP friend!


---------------------------------------------------------------------

People depend on me for my knowledge and intelligence. (INTp) == Yes, me too.

People depend on my mom for optimism and motherly caring. (INFp) == Same for my ENFP friend!

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I've never, ever had an 'intuition' in the mystical sense. (INTp) == I do get strange intuition from time to time, but not often.

My mother gets 'intuitions' constantly. (INFp) == Same for my friend!

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't take people who try to evoke any types of emotions out of me. (INTp) == True for me, unless people are very skillful at it, or unless I am very relaxed.

My mother can't take people who know what they're talking about. (INFp) == Absolutely true for my ENFP friend! It bothers me sometimes. :)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I constantly forget things, and I like to get to appointments exactly when they begin. (INTp) == I would be "lucky" if I could get to the appointments exactly on time, I am usually a little late.

My mother also constantly forgets things, and she likes to get to appointments at least 15 minutes before they begin. (INFp) == My friend is almost always on time, probably like your mother!


---------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't stand my mother approaching me to give me emotional support (like hugging or congratulating.) (INTp) == Got me! That's me, I hate hugs!!

My mother can't stand how I 'push away' from her attempts to give me emotional support. (INFp) == My friend is always affectionate, to the extent that sometimes I think he is not "real" (ok, no fair to him when I am saying this :lol: )

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope that helps. === Very much so, and thanks!


So, does this mean that I am an INTP (not INFP) ?? :o

Viv

INFps just love hugging =)

Hi, ,

Thanks for your message.

This is getting really exciting. I just concluded that I might be an INTp and replied Kaido's and Cone's messages just a minute ago. Now I have got yours telling me that I must be an INFp! (I actually secretly wish I were/am one, you see).

So could you give me reasons why I am an INFp?? I can't wait to know!

Thank you!

Viv

Well, ,

As I just said in my reply to Cone's message, I don't like hugging actually, but this maybe because I am Chinese. We Chinese don't hug at all, most of us don't even hug our parents (once we've grown up).

So any more reasons?

Dying to know, and thanks.

Viv

hehe, look at the 2nd page I posted 4 mins just before you post :)

Quote:

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Recently I've met many INFps (thanks to socionics I stopped hating them) and being INFp myself I can say with confidence that you aren't INFp.

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no you really don't want to be INFp :lol: or at least male INFp :) how about thinking about suicide at least 2 times/month? or being unpractical to the bone ?:) otherwise, female INFps are probably the sexiest thing you can meet..

btw my english sux

Hi, ,

Yes, you did reply a few minutes earlier than me, and for some reason I read your message wrong! INTPs typically do that, in fact.

So, you actually said I am NOT an INFp.

Gee, how disappointing! :lol:

Well, I am female, obviously, by looking at my name (is that right?). So I have concluded that I must not be too sexy then, hehe.. (let me read your message again, just in case I read it wrong the second time, which would mean I could read everything wrong!) Yes, read it again. Good, got it right this time. :lol:

So confirmed. I might be the hopeless INTp now. Not to worry, I will keep on "improving" myself to be more F, hehe...

One question, do the INFps feel really so emotional like what you said? (I am emotional too, but I don't like showing it to people most of the time). How come I heard/read that the I/ENFPs are real optimistic? I even know quite a few NFs who are quite optimistic.

I still don't like socionics much, it is pretty confusing.

Viv

Socionics is very confusing. You may think you know quite a lot, and then discover you got your own type wrong in the beginning...

In socionics the thinking feeling dichotomy is not primarily about your values like in the MBTI, but more about your style of communicating. Many female INTPs are very kind and considerate, they just do not feel that comfortable expressing their emotions, often particularly giving negative feedback can be difficult... Cultural differences can also complicate things a lot, most of socionics material is currently based mainly on Russian culture that tends to be emotionally fairly open.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CuriousSoul

Socionics is very confusing. You may think you know quite a lot, and then discover you got your own type wrong in the beginning...

---

Agree. In fact, my test result (by selection of words) with Socionics was INTJ intead of INTP, unlike MBTI. How strange!

Quote:

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In socionics the thinking feeling dichotomy is not primarily about your values like in the MBTI, but more about your style of communicating. Many female INTPs are very kind and considerate, they just do not feel that comfortable expressing their emotions, often particularly giving negative feedback can be difficult...

---

Interesting!! I will remember that.

Quote:

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Cultural differences can also complicate things a lot, most of socionics material is currently based mainly on Russian culture that tends to be emotionally fairly open.

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Russian? Yes, they are indeed emotionally very open, aren't they?

Quote:

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So confirmed. I might be the hopeless INTp now. Not to worry, I will keep on "improving" myself to be more F, hehe...

---

Believe me, Viv, after being with Socionics for two months now, you learn to love being an INTp.

And this is really cool, having another INTp on this forum who's as enthusiastic of Socionics as I am. And Cheerio has started to show some intense interest in it, also. Hell, in the past few days, it seems like everyone's getting really enthusiastic about Socionics. I've never seen such a surge in new topics in such a short time. I think something very glorious is about to happen.

Quote:

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Russia is emotionally open? I had a male ESFJ friend who visited there and reported the exact opposite. Said people never smile at you unless you are family and such. Also a teacher I had for world geography told me a story about a McDonalds that opened in Russia. He said that they had to put people outside the doors with megaphones announcing that when they went inside and the employees smiled at them that they were trying to be friendly according to McDonald's company policy, not insulting them. How is russia emotionally open? Whenever I see video clips of people in Russia they always look stoic as well or just plain cold but whatever they're feeling it seems muted if you follow. Well that is my perspective at least.

---

Eh, I guess it's just too 'cold' to be emotional over there...


Your INTp friend,

Cone

I guess you have not been to Finland then... It is all relative as always, and every culture and/or country has its own norms and standards in every respect, including with regard to showing emotions. It also depends very much on the context. As you know capitalism is a recent development in Russia, and those - frankly rather annoying - "Ronald McDonald smiles" do not yet come naturally to most Russians. Anyway there is a major difference between behavior in the public and in more private settings. Once you get to know ordinary native Russians personally I believe you should find them much more heartfelt and surpirisingly intimate even after quite a short friendship. You should keep in mind that Russia was a totalitarian dictatorship for over seventy years. People disappeared in the middle of the night never to be seen again. You could never tell if you could trust your friends or if they were KGP informers. These things do not change overnight, and Russia is far from a western democracy even today.

Hi, Cone,

Quote:

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Believe me, Viv, after being with Socionics for two months now, you learn to love being an INTp.

---

Okay, I will try to believe you. But Socionics seriously confuses me. You know what? The I/Ps for MBTI are regarded as I/Js by Socionics. Have you read http://www.socionics.com/advan/jpproblem.htm yet? It explains that. So, while I am an INTP for MBTI, I am actually an INTJ for Socionics. In fact, my test result with Socionics confirms that (I am INTJ) as well. More so, the profile of INTJ of Socionics (and a small part of INTP too) describes very much me!! But INTP of MBTI model also gives a quite "correct" profile of my traits. How confusing!!

But I must say that Socionics might be more "scientific" or more "logical" with its explanations on P/J possibilities, if you read the link I have just given above. I think it may be possible that, someone being an INTP of MBTI could also be, at the same time, an INTJ of Socionics. So we can be BOTH (INTP and INTJ). What do you think?

Quote:

---

And this is really cool, having another INTp on this forum who's as enthusiastic of Socionics as I am. And Cheerio has started to show some intense interest in it, also. Hell, in the past few days, it seems like everyone's getting really enthusiastic about Socionics. I've never seen such a surge in new topics in such a short time. I think something very glorious is about to happen.

---

Sure, you can’t be wrong about this, I’ve just proved my enthusiasm on the same thing right now, haven't I?

So are you an MBTI kind of INTP or a Socionics one? Just curious.

Your confused friend,

Viv

Hi, ,

Quote:

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uum I was just joking :) hehe

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No worries. I was kidding too. :D

Quote:

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"just be yourself" :P

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Don't seem to have much choice (not be myself), after two years "hard work" to change to be more F, but still here wondering. But I must say there is little progress with my effort though, just a little, you see...

Quote:

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Yup. But one can seldom see INFp outside of its circle of close friends showing its emotions to the max.

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Understood.

Quote:

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optimistic - yeah we are =)

---

Believe you!! :wink:

Viv

Hi Viv. I had forgotten about this thread due to the fact that the subject had switched from me to Linus Torvalds. Thanks for brining it back to me. :wink:

Ive decided now that Im probabaly INTp. Thats because Im alot more secure using thinking than using feeling. I may not be insecure using feeling when Im alone or with relatives... but whenever it becomes possible for me to get negative feedback, then I fall back on my logic. I find Im much more comfortable communicating my knowledge and my logic then my afftecion. It seems that analyzing situations comes alot more naturally for me than taking care of a relationship problem. So all in all, under pressure, its often my logic that I find alot more comfortable and easy to fall back on.

Hope that helps.

Sorry Cheerio, I did kind of hijack your thread. :oops: Bill Gates and Linus Torvalds are interesting personalities and socionics specimen though. You should always read all the threads! Otherwise you never know what you are missing.

I thought you had read through all the basics already, if not you should, it gets a bit frustrating to repeat the same basic points. For example:

From the Socionics Type Assistant "Decider" section:

If your type is INFP...
You may often pay too much attention to your thinking-logical side, which in return leads you to believe that it is as strong as your feeling-emotional side. However in reality, you find it much easier to show up your love and affection rather than to demonstrate your knowledge and erudition.

If your type is INTP...
You may often pay too much attention to your feeling-emotional side, which in return leads you to believe that it is as strong as your thinking-logical side. However in reality, you find it much easier to demonstrate your knowledge and erudition rather than to show up your love and affection.
http://www.socionics.com/advan/qa070304.htm

I think it is worth reading through all the information on www.socionics.com at least. It is a reasonable amount, and should not take far too long. If you want to ask questions it is always worth being as specific as possible. Vague and general questions are difficult to answer since we may easily miss your point and end up answering a completely different question...

Hi, Cheerio,

Quote:

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Cheerio wrote:
Hi Viv. I had forgotten about this thread due to the fact that the subject had switched from me to Linus Torvalds. Thanks for brining it back to me.

---

No problem. I am glad that you are back here.

Quote:

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Ive decided now that Im probabaly INTp. Thats because I am alot more secure using thinking than using feeling. I may not be insecure using feeling when Im alone or with relatives... but whenever it becomes possible for me to get negative feedback, then I fall back on my logic. I find Im much more comfortable communicating my knowledge and my logic then my afftecion. It seems that analyzing situations comes alot more naturally for me than taking care of a relationship problem. So all in all, under pressure, its often my logic that I find alot more comfortable and easy to fall back on.

---

Thanks for sharing your experience with me. Yes, it does help a lot. In many ways I am like what you described about yourself. I have also read CuriousSoul's last message (about INTP and INFP), which makes sense.

After communicating with several people on the board, I think I am also/still an INTP (of MBTI). But with Socionics test, I am an INTJ. So this is kind of confusing.

Which test did you take to get INTP? MBTI? Did you also take Socionics Test? If yes, did you get a different result/type, such as INTJ? Just curious.

Thanks a lot for your response and help!!

Viv

Hi, ,

You are probably right. I have just posted another message at

http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4551#4551

The result says that I am an INTJ (i.e. by MBTI model: introverted Intuiting and extraverted Thinking), which is, in fact, an
INTP by Socionics model (Socionics seems to have different function definitions from MBTI for some types, you see).

But as I said in the message, I don't quite understand the test result "chart", so don't know if I have misinterpreted this.

I also said in this other message that:

Quote:

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Ah, I thought ususally MBTI tests would tell me that I am an INTP! Kind of a surprise.

---

Maybe I shouldn't be surprised after all, because of what I have just said (about the differences between MBTI and Socionics)- I mean, maybe I am indeed an INTp, God knows!

Hey, you are pretty INTUITIVE here!! :lol:

Viv

Hey, ,

You know what? I am going to take Socionics (word selection) test again to find out what the hell I am - an INTP or INTJ?

Last time when I took the Socionics Assistant test was more than a year ago. Info. may not be "fresh" anymore.

But it will take me a while to re-do the test, I need to FOCUS well this time!

Will let you know the result.

Viv

,

Are you ready??

Don't jump!

I just did the Socionics Assistant test again (as I said, after more than a year since I last did it, which resulted as INTJ). You know what??

I am an INTP!!

Have I changed, or the world??? :wink:

Viv

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion

I used to test as INTP you are probably influencing the test with what you have learned over the past year *shrugs*

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Am I? Let me think....

Uhm.... I doubt it. I do have strong P traits, this is why I am still here at my computer "playing" other than working (got tons papers to do within today for tomorrow's business, you see. I know, I know, tomorrow is Sunday, but this is Hong Kong...). You know what? I actually hate this "unstructured" life of mine, but I can't seem to change it.

So, I think I am a P, although some tests do say that I am J. I really wish I were. But maybe you are right, there are still some suspicions...

By the way, is this (what I just said "play first and work later") a typical P trait in your opinion?

Hey, Pedro-the-Lion,

Forgot to tell you that I think I know what I've changed (from last year) on the test:

1. I changed the words related to "tough-minded/hearted" to be "softer/kinder", as I realized I was only looking and sounding "cold" sometimes, but actually and probably the opposite most of the time (once people get to know me).

2. I changed some words sounding "highly/very responsible" to be "less" so - I had to face the reality that, for example, yes, I am responsible, and would always get my work done "properly" and seemingly on time, but not many people know that much of the time I would leave my work/duties to the very last minute when doing them. Shh... don't tell anyone, especially my boss! :wink:

and etc etc... tons of weak points on my personality!! hehe...

(By the way, Item 2. changes from time to time, depending on how interesting the things I am doing or have to do)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion

My main point is that you are most likely T not F. The fact that you are a woman means that you often have to "F" more than your male counterparts.

---

Thanks for the note.Well, something interesting here, I "F" a lot more when writing, I mean I am a lot more friendly and even more "polite" when writing, probably because I have more time to be "conscious" about it, knowing that this may be one of my weaknesses (of not always remembering its importance in real life when I first meet people). Funny? :lol:

Quote:

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Also the way you think seems inverted from the way I think (ie you put perceptive evidence above arbitrary analysis). I can't quite explain it but you seem like an "irrational" (in the jungian sense of the term) personality rather than a rational one. Your goal self perception your means thinking. Whereas for me the goal is analysis and the means is self perception.

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I sort of understand. But what is "an "irrational" (in the jungian sense of the term)"? Could you give me some ideas, or some references about it?

Thank you.

Quote:

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About the whole not doing work thing, I have lots of work to do today and instead of doing it I decided to read and play Halo today

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Whew!! I am so relieved (and happy!) to hear that! So I am not alone! Have a good play! hehehe...

Quote:

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I'm not sure if I'm making this clear but it is highly evident to me that you are probably not INTJ.

---

If not INTJ, but still a Thinker, what can/should I be then? Any ideas? (maybe INTP?)

Oh, sorry, Pedro,

When I said (in my last message) that I "F" a lot more, I didn't mean anything bad! I am not a native English speaker, so I keep on forgetting! :(

=============
**OK, finally, need to get some work done now, it is 7:00 in the morning here (have been playing on the internet the whole night!)

"See" you.

OK, Pedro, I forgot to Loggin when posting the last message. Here I am resending my last post:
____________________________________

Hi, Pedro,

I am back!

Thanks so much for the link reference. I have read it quickly for the first time (will read again carefully soon). It is GREAT! Now I understand the basics of Jungs Rational and Irrational types, ok, just a little, still have tons to catch up with you guys.

One thing I do realize (more) now, after reading the site, is that: there is so much difference between each pair of seemingly similar types (e.g. INTP & INTJ; ENTP & INTP) due to their different components of functions, also, on this site, the descriptions of the differences and the way how these functions work are really accurate and feels so "real"! Okay, I suppose Jung was the original one who got all these ideas. Jung was indeed a genius.

I suppose this is just a long way of me saying THANKS to you. :lol: