Differences between LSI-ISTj and SLE-ESTp

Hi everyone,

I just had a quick question that you might be able to help me with. The question is: How do you tell the difference between an ISTj and an ESTp?

Five

The amount of friends they have.

The SLEs are the ones running around doing everything as soon as it pops into their head. When they aren't running around they're showing off. ISTjs tend to conserve their energy :wink:

I find ESTp discussions on this site, to be highly contradictive. I was reading a thread on a hypothetical discussion between ESTPs and every other word was bitch this, bitch that. Now I see this thread asking for a distinction between one of the most repressed types (ISTj) and ESTp. Makes me question as to whether ESTPs are are being labeled fairly. I remain suspect of the whole breakdown for introverts in Socionics, so I continue to see Ti-Se as ISTP.

Also, Linda V. Berens sees EST(P) belonging to the "Take Charge" inter relation group. One thing that all of that type have in common, is being responsible even as children. Can someone explain what ESTp's are truly like, in lieu of the pretentiousness?

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Originally Posted by Functianalyst

I remain suspect of the whole breakdown for introverts in Socionics, so I continue to see Ti-Se as ISTP.

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... not true at all. The only reason that we call the TiSe an ISTj, is because that's the type it's suppossed to correlate to in the MBTI system. Remember, socionic types didn't originally have the four acronym thing, it's was just the way for us Westerners to adapt to the socionic system.

... and without going into writing a book describing how the TiSe in socionics is the same thing as the SiTe in MBTI, I'm just going to point you to one of my favorite threads.

oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=2416

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Originally Posted by Herzblut

True! I forgot about the conserving energy thing. :o

I never conserve energy, never ever ever. You'll always see me running around and stuff for pointless reasons. :lol: Whereas these ISTjs I see around, they don't ever do that type of thing.

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Exactly, they would rather lounge around and point out the flaws in everything they see; makes me despise their asses and if I was not so understanding of their viewpoints, I would be tempted to whip out a can of whoop ass ...

Summary: I dislike ISTjs ...

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Originally Posted by Herzblut

I don't really get what you're asking. :? Seems a little too broad to answer without writing a book. :P

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That's probably a good thing then. I guess it answers any question as to whether that was my type.

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Originally Posted by Rocky

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Originally Posted by Functianalyst

I remain suspect of the whole breakdown for introverts in Socionics, so I continue to see Ti-Se as ISTP.

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... not true at all. The only reason that we call the TiSe an ISTj, is because that's the type it's suppossed to correlate to in the MBTI system. Remember, socionic types didn't originally have the four acronym thing, it's was just the way for us Westerners to adapt to the socionic system.

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I was actually alluding to MBTI in my quote Rocky.

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... and without going into writing a book describing how the TiSe in socionics is the same thing as the SiTe in MBTI, I'm just going to point you to one of my favorite threads.

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If you are about to propose that the functions Si/Te in socionics are the same for Ti/Se in MBTI, then it would take more than a book.

It is often said that ESTp-Ti sub is somehow more ISTj like than average ESTp. Why is this? ESTp-Ti sub is still Ep temperament and functionally and value wise moves towards alpha and ENTp not towards ISTj. Becomes less ISTj like than average ESTp.

If you take it further and compare ISTj-Se and ESTp-Ti. Someone might say "they are hard to tell from each other". But they shouldn't be like each other _at all_. ISTj-Se is close to ISFj where ESTp-Ti is close to ENTp. So they are almost complete opposites. Almost conflictors not almost identicals.

What do you think?

Or how about this one (as in my case):

An ENTp Ti subtype comes off as an ISTj.

An ESTp that is an Ti subtype is still an ESTp, but could adopt behaviors and values of an Ti dominant, as same for the ENTp. So an ENTp or ESTp have similarities when they are Ti subtypes.

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Originally Posted by Jimbean

An ENTp Ti subtype comes off as an ISTj.

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Umm...what? How is that possible :) Why not ESTp? I've heard of a version that ENTp-Ti comes off as INTj-Ti (which seems incorrect) and ESTp-Ti but never ISTj.

Seems to me this subtype theory is still quite incomplete. I don't see why temperaments should be fixed in stone like that, while functions change... the temperament itself is dependendent on the leading function, more than a thing of it's own isn't it? So if the most apparent function in someone's behavior is the creative function, it seems reasonable to mistake a creative subtype for its mirror.

I can tell you that whenever I end up using a lot of Se (with certain groups of people) I think I become more ESTp-like.

Good topic, XoX.

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Originally Posted by XoX

It is often said that ESTp-Ti sub is somehow more ISTj like than average ESTp. Why is this? ESTp-Ti sub is still Ep temperament and functionally and value wise moves towards alpha and ENTp not towards ISTj. Becomes less ISTj like than average ESTp.

If you take it further and compare ISTj-Se and ESTp-Ti. Someone might say "they are hard to tell from each other". But they shouldn't be like each other _at all_. ISTj-Se is close to ISFj where ESTp-Ti is close to ENTp.

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Bullshit. LSI is a mirror of SLE. Fi and Ti are two completely different functions. Are you suggesting that a Ti/Fe, Se/Ni valuing type is closer to a Fi/Te, Se/Ni valuing type than it is to a type that values its own values? That's like saying an American special forces guy is closest to an British SAS guy than a British Reg is, which is utter shit.

An SLE couldn't give a shit about Ne, and yet it is the ILE's leading function. So how the fuck did you come to the conclusion that an SLE is closer to a Ne-valuing type than a Ne PoLR type?

Anyway, SLE-Ti is close to LSI-Se because they both value the same functions, and SLE-Ti is more prominent in Ti even though Se is their first function, and the reverse is true of the LSI-Se. Nonetheless, they're easy to tell apart. I can't be arsed explaining how at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Ezra

Good topic, XoX.

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Originally Posted by XoX

It is often said that ESTp-Ti sub is somehow more ISTj like than average ESTp. Why is this? ESTp-Ti sub is still Ep temperament and functionally and value wise moves towards alpha and ENTp not towards ISTj. Becomes less ISTj like than average ESTp.

If you take it further and compare ISTj-Se and ESTp-Ti. Someone might say "they are hard to tell from each other". But they shouldn't be like each other _at all_. ISTj-Se is close to ISFj where ESTp-Ti is close to ENTp.

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Bullshit. LSI is a mirror of SLE. Fi and Ti are two completely different functions. Are you suggesting that a Ti/Fe, Se/Ni valuing type is closer to a Fi/Te, Se/Ni valuing type than it is to a type that values its own values? That's like saying an American special forces guy is closest to an British SAS guy than a British Reg is, which is utter shit.

An SLE couldn't give a shit about Ne, and yet it is the ILE's leading function. So how the fuck did you come to the conclusion that an SLE is closer to a Ne-valuing type than a Ne PoLR type?

Anyway, SLE-Ti is close to LSI-Se because they both value the same functions, and SLE-Ti is more prominent in Ti even though Se is their first function, and the reverse is true of the LSI-Se. Nonetheless, they're easy to tell apart. I can't be arsed explaining how at the moment.

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I think you don't understand properly where the claim comes from. It comes from one quite often used interpretation for how subtypes affect functional preference. It doesnt mean your claim is necessarily wrong though.

ESTp-Ti and ENTp-Ti should be similar because
a) they share the same temperament
b) they share the same creative function
c) they share the same PoLR
d) they prefer their creative function over their leading function (use it more) -> "subtype theory" says focusing on your creative function blurs your leading vs role function difference. Thus ESTp-Ti is more Ne than average ESTp, ENTp-Ti is more Se. This is the controversial claim which implies ISTj-Se is very different creature from ESTp-Ti.

ESTp-Ti vs ISTj-Se
a) different temperament
b) different creative function
c) different PoLR
d) ISTj-Se focuses more on Se, ESTp-Ti focuses more on Ti. This means ESTp-Ti has more focus on Ne than average ESTp. ISTj-Se has very little if any focus on Ne. They shouldn't be alike.

I haven't observed much about the subtypes IRL so hard to tell how this really goes.

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Originally Posted by Thunder

There are many subtype theories and as a forum we sort of made up our own which is not really clearly defined, I'm not sure how useful it is to argue about it.

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How can it ever get clearly defined if we don't argue about it? :P Ok we are lacking empirical evidence a bit..

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Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit

Seems to me this subtype theory is still quite incomplete. I don't see why temperaments should be fixed in stone like that, while functions change... the temperament itself is dependendent on the leading function, more than a thing of it's own isn't it? So if the most apparent function in someone's behavior is the creative function, it seems reasonable to mistake a creative subtype for its mirror.

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Yes the subtype theory is incomplete. But about the temperament. The subtype theory claims that the preference to use creative function more doesn't make creative function your leading function. That the "leading" vs "creative" difference is structural and not directly dependent how much you actually activate the function. You "are" your leading function and you "utilize" or "use" your creative function. One subtype tend to utilize their creative function a lot and the other not. It takes conscious effort to use your creative function but leading function usage kind of comes automatically. Concentrating a lot on your creative function doesn't automate its usage. It is still a tool.

So according to that ISTj-Se and ESTp-Se might seem alike in behavior because you see a lot of Se thrown around. But ISFj-Se also throws a lot of Se around and might look similar too. ISTj-Se and ISFj-Se might look very similar.

However, ESTp-Ti doesn't throw around that much Se. That is why ESTp-Ti and ISTj-Se should not look that similar. ESTp-Ti should look more like ENTp-Ti with somewhat less abstract creativity and a bit more forceful posture.

I'm implying socionics theory. I agree with it, and as I've said before, there's no need to argue with it. I couldn't give a shit about the nitty gritty of it, like what subtypes are closer to which. I just want people to understand the fact that SLE and LSI as Mirrors are closer to each other than SLE and ILE. Once they understand the theory properly (and not just types dichotomically e.g. ESTp is close to ENTp because all you have to do is change one letter around and they're the same - this is simplistic and MBTT-favouring), an SLE is much more likely to consider LSI as a second option for type than they are ILE.

Now I understand, XoX, but I disagree with you.

I'm not really a fan of this math/theoretical stuff... I feel you start with observation, which is bound to be at least slightly wrong, and by applying math to it you make everything bigger, including those little mistakes. While if you just stick to observation, those mistakes will remain small.
Ahahaha ok, ok, I just don't have the patience for it (c:

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Originally Posted by ifmd95

consider an I(S)Tj as a blend of an ISTj and an ISFj more so than a blend of ISTj and ESTp. something to consider: while Ti may become weaker than I(ST)j, Fi becomes stronger. the sum of Ti and Fi strength in the I(S)Tj is much stronger than in E(ST)p. (static rational/IJ functions.) in every IJ subtype this sum will be greater than a corresponding sum for the EP functions (re: Se creative, Ne POLR.)

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Why does the sum of Fi+Ti have to be equal in I(ST)j and I(S)Tj, and why does it have to be greater than Se+Ne? Maybe it's how those functions are used, instead of their strength, that defines the type.

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Originally Posted by XoX

So according to that ISTj-Se and ESTp-Se might seem alike in behavior because you see a lot of Se thrown around. But ISFj-Se also throws a lot of Se around and might look similar too. ISTj-Se and ISFj-Se might look very similar.

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I don't have a problem with I(S)Tj being similar to both I(S)Fj and ESTp... why does it have to be similar to one other type only?

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Originally Posted by XoX

However, ESTp-Ti doesn't throw around that much Se. That is why ESTp-Ti and ISTj-Se should not look that similar. ESTp-Ti should look more like ENTp-Ti with somewhat less abstract creativity and a bit more forceful posture.

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ESTp-Ti doesn't throw Se around?!? Less than ESTp-Se maybe, but they are still Se leading.

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Originally Posted by ifmd95

that's a fair point sometimes, about extrapolation. but the neat thing about socionics is that the maths can be self-correcting.

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Originally Posted by http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13033&start=15

i think it's also worth noting that if types are defined by dichotomies as much as dichotomies are defined by types, then if some dichotomies seem unequally distributed among the types from your POV, maybe you need to recalibrate your understanding of or at least the boundaries among what you call the types. the same works for calibrating dichotomies w.r.t. types. it's a beautifully recursive and complete error-checking mechanism, great stuff i think. although i'd never expect to achieve a perfect calibration of either since the underlying system (people?) is so complex.

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Cool, I do understand the value of these theories once they are calibrated, but this calibration requires knowledge of many people and their type. And by many I mean many... I don't think we can do it well on this forum, on something as undefined as subtypes.

I have typed very few people, and am in no way close to seeing subtypes IRL, so I'm gonna shut up... what I'm sure about is that I look more ESTp when I use more Se.

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Originally Posted by ifmd95

if i'm coming across as pedantic, i'm just trying to be exacting about which theory we're talking about, not necessarily which one is "real" or whatever IRL. we can at least sort out the theories online.

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Maybe this is Ne and that's why I have problems with it.

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Originally Posted by ifmd95

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Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit

what I'm sure about is that I look more ESTp when I use more Se.

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you probably know yourself better than some random guy on the internet! so maybe you're a case where the temperament-shift better fits. but a few caveats you might want to consider: 1) when quadra-rotation says I(S)Tj is more like ISFj, it's speaking to the type overall. not necessarily during the use of a specific function. it's possible a person might look more ISFj overall, but more ESTp when in "creative" mode. 2) model A encompasses characteristics that we aren't always conscious to. maybe you share some similarities to ISFj in that regard.

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Could very well be... my knowledge of ISFj is quite lacking.

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Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit

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Originally Posted by XoX

So according to that ISTj-Se and ESTp-Se might seem alike in behavior because you see a lot of Se thrown around. But ISFj-Se also throws a lot of Se around and might look similar too. ISTj-Se and ISFj-Se might look very similar.

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I don't have a problem with I(S)Tj being similar to both I(S)Fj and ESTp... why does it have to be similar to one other type only?

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Say temperaments are 4 overlapping circumferences that intersect at mirror types when we rotate them synchronously from a starting point where all the types opposed in serious/merry dichotomy are parellel to the y axis, then the intersection always happens only when there is a perfect mirror type, so for an I(S)Tj only at E(S)Tp because they both share an equal ratio of merriness over seriousness (this dichotomy is just an example, it could be done for every dichotomy if you understand whether it's polarized in an opposite way in temperaments, or shared via quadra values (ex. tactis/strategy: perfect mirror types have exactly opposed ratios of tactics over strategy (think again about I(S)Tj and E(S)Tp, where the former is the peak of tactics, and the latter peak of strategy). This also matches empirical observations because a perfect mirror partner is one that is able to see the same side of ourself for half the problem so that we can share ideas togheter, and another half different so that there is mutual correction.

By the way dichotomy wise an ISFj is more similar to an ESTp than an ISTj(!!!): look for example at the recent post on DarkAngelFireWolf69's styles of thinking.

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Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit

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Originally Posted by XoX

So according to that ISTj-Se and ESTp-Se might seem alike in behavior because you see a lot of Se thrown around. But ISFj-Se also throws a lot of Se around and might look similar too. ISTj-Se and ISFj-Se might look very similar.

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I don't have a problem with I(S)Tj being similar to both I(S)Fj and ESTp... why does it have to be similar to one other type only?

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Because ISFj and ESTp are not very similar in the end. Even the Se-subtypes. One has IJ temperament and leading Fi. One has EP temperament and Fi PoLR. So it seems some other type can't be similar to both. In theory.

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Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit

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Originally Posted by XoX

However, ESTp-Ti doesn't throw around that much Se. That is why ESTp-Ti and ISTj-Se should not look that similar. ESTp-Ti should look more like ENTp-Ti with somewhat less abstract creativity and a bit more forceful posture.

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ESTp-Ti doesn't throw Se around?!? Less than ESTp-Se maybe, but they are still Se leading.

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Ti is an introverted function. When you use it you are not interacting with the outside world but absorbed in your mind. Thus you should throw less Se around than someone who is not absorbed in their mind all the time. Now that I look at it from this point of view it might be that ESTp-Ti isn't more Ne than ESTp-Se. Just spends more time in his head analyzing and less time hitting people in the head. Kind of like ISTj.

Some image thinking...

ESTp is a hammer with a brain. ESTp-Se is a big hammer with a small brain. ESTp-Ti is a small hammer with a big brain.
ISTj is a brain holding a hammer. ISTj-Ti is a big brain holding a small hammer. ISTj-Se is a small brain holding a big hammer.

nah...this doesn't work. I don't know what ENTp is in this imagery.

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Originally Posted by FDG

By the way dichotomy wise an ISFj is more similar to an ESTp than an ISTj(!!!): look for example at the recent post on DarkAngelFireWolf69's styles of thinking.

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I thought all types are as similar or dissimilar dichotomy-wise?

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Originally Posted by XoX

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Originally Posted by FDG

By the way dichotomy wise an ISFj is more similar to an ESTp than an ISTj(!!!): look for example at the recent post on DarkAngelFireWolf69's styles of thinking.

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I thought all types are as similar or dissimilar dichotomy-wise?

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You're right, I probably meant behavior-wise (I was brainstorming more than stating definite ideas)

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Originally Posted by XoX

It is often said that ESTp-Ti sub is somehow more ISTj like than average ESTp. Why is this? ESTp-Ti sub is still Ep temperament and functionally and value wise moves towards alpha and ENTp not towards ISTj. Becomes less ISTj like than average ESTp.

If you take it further and compare ISTj-Se and ESTp-Ti. Someone might say "they are hard to tell from each other". But they shouldn't be like each other _at all_. ISTj-Se is close to ISFj where ESTp-Ti is close to ENTp. So they are almost complete opposites. Almost conflictors not almost identicals.

What do you think?

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I'm completely lost in all of these posts. I didn't know there was a socionics subtype theory either originating from here or elsewhere. I dont understand anything you guys have laid out. I would think an extroverted sensing istj would be an unhealthy one based on the theory that we take on the opposite of our functions under stress. If anyone has any links or anything relating to socionics and subtype i'd be most grateful.

Lefty
ENFJ 4w5

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Originally Posted by lefty

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Originally Posted by XoX

It is often said that ESTp-Ti sub is somehow more ISTj like than average ESTp. Why is this? ESTp-Ti sub is still Ep temperament and functionally and value wise moves towards alpha and ENTp not towards ISTj. Becomes less ISTj like than average ESTp.

If you take it further and compare ISTj-Se and ESTp-Ti. Someone might say "they are hard to tell from each other". But they shouldn't be like each other _at all_. ISTj-Se is close to ISFj where ESTp-Ti is close to ENTp. So they are almost complete opposites. Almost conflictors not almost identicals.

What do you think?

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I'm completely lost in all of these posts. I didn't know there was a socionics subtype theory either originating from here or elsewhere. I dont understand anything you guys have laid out. I would think an extroverted sensing istj would be an unhealthy one based on the theory that we take on the opposite of our functions under stress. If anyone has any links or anything relating to socionics and subtype i'd be most grateful.

Lefty
ENFJ 4w5

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Don't worry about it - alot of what people have said is theoretical bullshit that means nothing and adds nothing to life whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Ezra

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Originally Posted by lefty

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Originally Posted by XoX

It is often said that ESTp-Ti sub is somehow more ISTj like than average ESTp. Why is this? ESTp-Ti sub is still Ep temperament and functionally and value wise moves towards alpha and ENTp not towards ISTj. Becomes less ISTj like than average ESTp.

If you take it further and compare ISTj-Se and ESTp-Ti. Someone might say "they are hard to tell from each other". But they shouldn't be like each other _at all_. ISTj-Se is close to ISFj where ESTp-Ti is close to ENTp. So they are almost complete opposites. Almost conflictors not almost identicals.

What do you think?

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I'm completely lost in all of these posts. I didn't know there was a socionics subtype theory either originating from here or elsewhere. I dont understand anything you guys have laid out. I would think an extroverted sensing istj would be an unhealthy one based on the theory that we take on the opposite of our functions under stress. If anyone has any links or anything relating to socionics and subtype i'd be most grateful.

Lefty
ENFJ 4w5

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Don't worry about it - alot of what people have said is theoretical bullshit that means nothing and adds nothing to life whatsoever.

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Damn negativists. Half empty glass, eh? A lot of what people have said is practical, useful information that means a lot and adds a lot to life.

Lefty:
If you really want to study more then try wikisocion http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...ikisocion_home

Edit:
Actually Im not sure if there is much about subtypes there. But it still is a good read :)

Wikisocion is the don of everything. I just don't like all this lengthy, dragged out theory. I want the facts, and I want them now. Wiki (and Rick) give them to me.

On a lighter note, XoX, no; the glass is actually half full, and these words have actually come out of my mouth in the last four days, so you are incorrect.

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Originally Posted by XoX

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Originally Posted by Ezra

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Originally Posted by lefty

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Originally Posted by XoX

It is often said that ESTp-Ti sub is somehow more ISTj like than average ESTp. Why is this? ESTp-Ti sub is still Ep temperament and functionally and value wise moves towards alpha and ENTp not towards ISTj. Becomes less ISTj like than average ESTp.

If you take it further and compare ISTj-Se and ESTp-Ti. Someone might say "they are hard to tell from each other". But they shouldn't be like each other _at all_. ISTj-Se is close to ISFj where ESTp-Ti is close to ENTp. So they are almost complete opposites. Almost conflictors not almost identicals.

What do you think?

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I'm completely lost in all of these posts. I didn't know there was a socionics subtype theory either originating from here or elsewhere. I dont understand anything you guys have laid out. I would think an extroverted sensing istj would be an unhealthy one based on the theory that we take on the opposite of our functions under stress. If anyone has any links or anything relating to socionics and subtype i'd be most grateful.

Lefty
ENFJ 4w5

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Don't worry about it - alot of what people have said is theoretical bullshit that means nothing and adds nothing to life whatsoever.

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Damn negativists. Half empty glass, eh? A lot of what people have said is practical, useful information that means a lot and adds a lot to life.

Lefty:
If you really want to study more then try wikisocion http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...ikisocion_home

Edit:
Actually Im not sure if there is much about subtypes there. But it still is a good read :)

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You know...I had been to that site once before, but something about you directing me there made me take more interest. I'm totally interested in the relationship styles: aggressor, victim, caregiver, and infantile. I always love new ways to look at these things. I love systems. I'm also highly interested in this subtype theory since subtypes are also in enneagram, and because it could lend more distinction to the types.

Thanks for sharing,

lefty
enfj 4w5

Rule Breaker vs Rule Abider

Estps are generally more intense and in your face, higher energy levels and I find them to have more of an outward/playful ego; whereas LSIs egos is more stubborn/serious

SLEs have more of a sexual aura, its more out there than with LSI's. More adventurous off the bat than LSI's too...both are goal oriented, but in LSI's it comes off as way more prominent.

their vibes are really different IJ vs EP

I dont know if this will help at all, but I have had at least one close friend of each. How the LSI used to phrase things would spike my emotions because he would say things that I perceived as fucked up, like they were fact, and it pissed me the heck off. Things that I didnt want to acknowledge as true, despite the logicality of it. Him, and I think LSI's in general, are less likely to sugarcoat things. Much less likely, they basically say things as they are. How I notice him and other LSI's react is with an appreciation of Fe but dont seem to feel compelled in really engaging in it. Its something that I initially found weird, but now I find admirable; their unboundness to 'Fe Social Rules'. With SLE's I feel they get more absorbed in the atmosphere, they are much more likely to contribute Fe into the interaction, put on a show so to speak, and as such I feel my interactions w them abit smoother.Their flow of communication in general is just steadier, its a constant stream of communication as to where their may be breaks in convos with LSI's.

Hard to picture an SLE being awkward, even when they are being awkward. They kinda just brush it off as having fun, while with LSIs their can be this silent tension.

Lastly, I dont know if this is an Fe ego thing, an Fe creative thing, or maybe not even Fe related but I find myself compelled to put Fe out there alot of times to not awkwardise interactions. SLEs for me are one of the types where you can literally just not worry about that kind of stuff. Their behavior patterns elicit Fe responses from me very naturally. In this way it takes the pressure off. They are entertaining, edgey, and stimulating for the most part so it automatically elicits that kind of responses from me.

I agree w/ everything Pirate said. LSIs seem more rigid. SLEs seem more fluid. SLEs use Ti in the service of Se so they're more able/willing to bend the rules to reach their goal. LSIs use Se in the service of Ti so their systems come first and their actions follow the rules. Therefore they can come across as more "proper".

I dunno, I find it hard to prescribe specific traits that are consistently different; sure LSIs tend to be more stereotypically introverted, but I have encountered some VERY reserved Ti-SLEs, and some extremely outgoing and talkative LSIs of both subtypes, so that's not really a sure bet. Actually I tend to think that, while SLEs are more naturally outgoing and usually have more finely tuned people skills, LSIs as a group tend to be generally more sociable; they seem to get more out of it, and are probably more likely to socialize or talk casually, "just for fun," whereas an SLE's social life is generally either a realm in which power is to be gained, or geared towards specific discharge, getting praise, bonding with close friends, etc.

The real key, I think, is gauging the general energy, the sense of the person: when you interact with LSIs, they seem like they are coming from somewhere to talk to you, as though engaging with people is a sort of "venturing out" of their natural state. Even the really most outgoing of them seem like they are sort of reporting their thoughts to you; when "narrating" they tend to speak sequentially and categorically. Some of them talk really fast; sometimes they don't pay any heed to whether or not the person they are speaking to can understand them properly or keep up with their train of thought. If you just let them go, they can kind of steamroll conversations; to have effective two-way exchange with them you have to be able to tell both when it's "your turn" and when it's ok to interrupt them (and some of them DEFINITELY need to be interrupted, or they will rant for ages :lol:).

SLEs, on the other hand, are ALWAYS gauging you in conversation, always calculating. The more talkative ones will use various tactics to draw you out, sometimes ranting as a way to throw you off or put you in a place where they can tell more about you, by entrancing you (watch out for the 3s here, especially :lol:), making you uncomfortable, poking and prodding, or sitting back laconically until they see something they can bite at. They are always testing you, always trying to gauge where you stand; it almost seems like they are so certain of themselves, but nothing else at all. SLEs tend to seem more loose and sporadic than LSIs. Se-LSIs tend to have a "tight" feeling, like they are maintaining specific personal boundaries, and Ti-LSIs generally seem just very composed and maintained; SLEs are always more casual and receptive than either. Ti-SLEs, especially the 3s, can seem very composed, especially in a professional setting, and have a distinct almost dangerous-seeming coldness to them, but even then you can see a tinge of that potential skater punk/surfer just below the surface, ready to cut loose at the first sight of ruckus.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilly

Ti-SLEs, especially the 3s, can seem very composed, especially in a professional setting, and have a distinct almost dangerous-seeming coldness to them, but even then you can see a tinge of that potential skater punk/surfer just below the surface, ready to cut loose at the first sight of ruckus.

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:lol: Love this, Gilly! So true.

SLEs don't think before they do anything and end up fucking themselves over.

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Originally Posted by discojoe

SLEs don't think before they do anything and end up fucking themselves over.

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Actually that is true a lot of the time, but generally only the ones with an IQ of below 120.

Rationality is the big difference. LSIs won't do something unless it makes sense and until it has been proven to make sense according to Ti (whereas an EIE wouldn't do it until it made sense according to Fe, perhaps?). SLEs will do something just for the hell of it, for the sake of experience. Also, SLEs are more prone to using Ti as a "toy" that is, to making spurious (but apparently sound) arguments for the hell of it.

In class, my LSI friend will pay attention and not really cause problems or anything as long as the information presented seems worthwhile. If the information presented no longer seems worthwhile, he will either ignore it or go to sleep or something. If the teacher does something "illogical" he will harp on it incessantly. By contrast, my SLE friend will pay attention but will usually do something else. More demand for stimulation or something. If the information no longer seems worthwhile, he'll attempt to interact with his environment somehow rather than just ignoring the teacher/sleeping. Frequently this takes the form of him writing his name on random stuff that's nearby. But I think that's being-weird related, not type related. If the teacher does something illogical, and it affects him or others he cares about, he will normally want to say something to the teacher about it, or embarrass said teacher in class about it. SLEs generally have to be held back or hold themselves back from taking action on things that bother them, whereas LSIs don't need to hold themselves back. They naturally weigh the situation before deciding whether or not they need to take action---they don't have the same immediate/natural inclination to action.

Also, in writing this description, I realize that we really do expect our own behavior and our duals behavior, and see this as natural, and deviations from this in some way unnatural, even if we intellectually know that such behavior is 100% natural and normal. Random thought.

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Originally Posted by Gilly

Actually that is true a lot of the time, but generally only the ones with an IQ of below 120.

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Yeah, that's a good point. My SLE best friend growing up probably has an IQ around 110 or so, and he has been in prison like three times for kicking the shit out of people and putting one kid in a coma.

Getting into fights is a surefire way to accidentally hurt someone and get sent to jail. Much better to provoke and claim self-defense, but it's still really dangerous.

But yeah, I'm sure IQ has a lot to do with thinking about consequences, since it involves considering multiple variables.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by octopuslove

This is another problem - I have few people solidly typed with whom to compare the beta STs I'm unsure of... :(

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Descriptions? Pics? You can bring it to PM if you're not comfortable posting about them openly.

These are my impressions but please tell me if I am way off --

LSIs are more likely to follow a plan than SLEs.

SLEs are more likely to follow their impulses on a moment's notice.

LSIs are less emotionally expressive.

SLEs are more likely to use grand gestures and giant smiles more often.

Both CAN be loud, but LSIs are loud much less often than SLEs.

Both CAN be methodical, but SLEs are methodical much less consistently than LSIs.

SLEs are more intrigued by a "quiet" but warm person they can open up.

LSIs are more likely to need someone warm and not so quiet to open them up.

SLEs are more likely to have a huge crew of friends they call up and make plans with.

LSIs seem "colder" at first (even though they aren't really cold at all, inside <3).

Seems like you could switch SLE with EIE and LSI with IEI. based on the list...or maybe even all extro and intro types
for ejs they are more methodical pehaps and ips more impulsive?

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Originally Posted by octopuslove

Hmm... can an LSI have poor impulse control?

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Totally. But because of the introverted/extroverted thing, an SLE is more likely to naturally want to respond to his environment without going through an interior filter, whereas an LSI is more likely to naturally want to check his internal filter before responding to his environment. The actual resultant impulse control has to do with many factors beside type, and if you plotted impulse control against type, there would be plenty of LSIs with worse impulse control than plenty of SLEs.

Ne PoLR vs Fi PoLR maybe?

On a side note, SLEs seem to be less empathetic than LSIs when joking around. Theyll just make a rude remark and then not feel sorry for it whereas LSI might do then same thing then be halfway apologetic about it.

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Originally Posted by Typhon

On a side note, SLEs seem to be less empathetic than LSIs when joking around. Theyll just make a rude remark and then not feel sorry for it whereas LSI might do then same thing then be halfway apologetic about it.

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The SLE that I have known can be very frankly honest and so much so that they won't care about how other's see that and won't appologize for it. They are severe but just. While LSI laws and order as pertaining to catagorization. LSI like for people to do things that are in their place to do and nothing more.

strict rule-abiders are a bit annoying. LIIs can be this way too.

Since both are Beta STs, I wonder what would be the main differences between these two types (other than what I could read at wikisocion, socionics.com and other sites). And if it´s easy to tell one from the other. How would they be different in behaviour.

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Originally Posted by ananke

SLEs - more guarded when it comes to personal relationships (Fi PoLR)
LSIs - more guarded when it comes to random relationships (weak Fe)

SLEs - can chat up anyone, anywhere - if they want to (Fe HA)
LSIs - want to be helped into a conversation (Fe DS)

And a lot more, but I'm too drunk to care to think about other differences right now.

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That´s already something. Thank you Ananke.

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Originally Posted by ananke

And a lot more, but I'm too drunk to care to think about other differences right now.

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that sounds good, let me join you.

LSI: more disciplined, linear approach to life.
SLE: their actions appear more random. For example, they don't keep a regular schedule if they can help it. Sometimes up early, sometimes sleep in. Sometimes drive, sometimes take the bus.

Redbaron nice to see you around :)

is there no sociable LSI then?

the LSIs I know are not very talkative, I am more talkative than them, but I´m not so open to people like a cousin I have who I´m almost sure is SLE. this cousin has powerful friends everywhere. He can´t get arrested, I´d bet, because he´d know the Police Chief or something like that. I can´t make as many friends and I think this kind of opportunistic approach (making friends with powerful and rich people only) is a sign of lack of moral judgment, which I have a lot. So if I am beta ST, I´m LSI definitely. I was thinking about that. I really do have some things in common with my uncle and the psych doc who are LSIs, we kind of get along well, though I´m more hot-tempered. But one thing I have seen in LSIs , maybe wrong, is that they can be of two 'types', the most common is usually very cool and calm (probably healthy ones) the others are all the time looking pissed-off and irritated and very short-tempered, with periods where they cool down. Am I wrong with this?

Ananke,
That was great.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Airborne

a cousin I have who I´m almost sure is SLE. this cousin has powerful friends everywhere. He can´t get arrested, I´d bet, because he´d know the Police Chief or something like that. I can´t make as many friends and I think this kind of opportunistic approach (making friends with powerful and rich people only) is a sign of lack of moral judgment, which I have a lot.

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SEE?

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Originally Posted by Airborne

But one thing I have seen in LSIs , maybe wrong, is that they can be of two 'types', the most common is usually very cool and calm (probably healthy ones) the others are all the time looking pissed-off and irritated and very short-tempered, with periods where they cool down. Am I wrong with this?

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SLE?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Airborne

Redbaron nice to see you around :)

is there no sociable LSI then?

the LSIs I know are not very talkative, I am more talkative than them, but I´m not so open to people like a cousin I have who I´m almost sure is SLE. this cousin has powerful friends everywhere. He can´t get arrested, I´d bet, because he´d know the Police Chief or something like that. I can´t make as many friends and I think this kind of opportunistic approach (making friends with powerful and rich people only) is a sign of lack of moral judgment, which I have a lot. So if I am beta ST, I´m LSI definitely. I was thinking about that. I really do have some things in common with my uncle and the psych doc who are LSIs, we kind of get along well, though I´m more hot-tempered. But one thing I have seen in LSIs , maybe wrong, is that they can be of two 'types', the most common is usually very cool and calm (probably healthy ones) the others are all the time looking pissed-off and irritated and very short-tempered, with periods where they cool down. Am I wrong with this?

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I know a pretty sociable LSI. He creates his own groups/clubs and talks a lot but only on the topics that interest him and with people he really likes. There's not too much small talk. Another one I know keeps more to himself. LSI is maybe more opinionated than SLE overall. But that could just be these individuals. LSI enjoys a good emotional fight or argument over principles more than SLE I think. SLE wraps it up with one phrase or word. LSI will argue back and forth and enjoys more intense emotions. They are both always right. SLE may concede the battle to win the war--his eye is on the larger prize. LSI fights every point. (I don't actually know if that's true, but that's how they come across to me)

SLEs focus on coherence of purpose and vision, while LSIs focus on assembling parts into wholes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redbaron

I know a pretty sociable LSI. He creates his own groups/clubs and talks a lot but only on the topics that interest him and with people he really likes. There's not too much small talk. Another one I know keeps more to himself. LSI is maybe more opinionated than SLE overall. But that could just be these individuals. LSI enjoys a good emotional fight or argument over principles more than SLE I think. SLE wraps it up with one phrase or word. LSI will argue back and forth and enjoys more intense emotions. They are both always right. SLE may concede the battle to win the war--his eye is on the larger prize. LSI fights every point. (I don't actually know if that's true, but that's how they come across to me)

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Interesting... if what you said is socionical fact, I may be LSI then.

SLE have a tendency to do what they want when they want. They want what they want, and they tend to want it now. They tend to have an aura of control over their environment navigating it with easy and confidence. They are challenge seekers and often have a drive to prove themselves, but they can lack patience and the long-term consideration required to accomplish some challenges. They have a tendency to step on toes when entranced into their striving and mobilized nature. While not necessarily social, they are very friendly and often politically incorrect. They tend to move hastily and may be a bit anxious, but appear unphased by pressure and are quick thinkers.

LSIs are very controlled, an may come off a bit stiff. Confident and self-assured, they often have a hard time admitting they're wrong. Often come off as no-nonsense but are able to really loosen up around friends. Almost always composed and unshakable. Often ambitious and career-minded. Usually organized and sometimes perfectionistic. More cautious and thought out than the SLE, but still prone to haste. They are often characterized by being responsible, stable and dependable.

The mind of an LSI is like a chessboard, with rules and pieces, but the pieces are only moved though the LSI's will, their Se. The Se also keeps the pieces in line, preventing them from breaking the rules of the LSI's psychic Ti manual and making sure they move when they are supposed to.

An SLE's mind is like a flood that carries them toward their destination. To ride the waters more efficiently, they hop aboard boats they comes across and use their inner Ti manual to figure out how to operate them, and they ditch the boat as soon as another, better one comes along that can get them where they're going faster.

LSI is like a kid building a snow fort. Snow is systematically piled according to the LSI's plan, designed to withstand any Se assault.

SLE is like a kid throwing snowballs at things he wants to knock down. :content:

The mind of an LSI is like a cheese-board, with rules, cheeses, and crackers. But the cheeses stay away from the crackers until the LSI deems what cheeses should go with what crackers in Ti-organized ways and in Ti-fashioned time-codes. If the cheeses disobey, LSI uses Ti to get the other cheeses to put them in line if not easily done himself/herself.

The mind of an SLE is like a kid with a major sweet tooth and a baseball bat in a candy store. The primal is stimulating fun and all you have to do is take what you want and damn those that say otherwise.
:D

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Originally Posted by discojoe

The mind of an LSI is like a chessboard, with rules and pieces, but the pieces are only moved though the LSI's will, their Se. The Se also keeps the pieces in line, preventing them from breaking the rules of the LSI's psychic Ti manual and making sure they move when they are supposed to.

An SLE's mind is like a flood that carries them toward their destination. To ride the waters more efficiently, they hop aboard boats they comes across and use their inner Ti manual to figure out how to operate them, and they ditch the boat as soon as another, better one comes along that can get them where they're going faster.

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That's a cool metaphor. I always saw Ti as a vehicle for the Se in the SLE, and vice versa in the LSI. So in that respect, you've got a mini Saddam riding in a pimp mobile, and Zhukov riding in a Ti mobile, whatever the fuck that is.

My mind is like an evolving puzzle. There are islands of pieces I have fit together, some small, and some quite large. Everything new that I take in, is fit in its own area, either with other pieces that it belongs with, or beginning a new island to work together later. When islands overlap and fight for space, the puzzle has to be reworked to tie them together in a way that makes sense. The goal is one large puzzle, a complete picture, with all pieces in their proper places, but it's a never-ending project, with each new piece collected changing the final picture. That picture will never be finished.

I don't think in rules. I think in connections, how things FIT together to make sense. Arrangements. How can this be arranged with that to make something I can understand. It's a structure. An interconnected structure. I do not think in stacks and rules.

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Originally Posted by ananke

Ezra, Discojoe. I don't think any of you are betas. OK, maybe DJ, cause he is so strange he's untypeable.

Anyway neither of you are typical Se/Ti so hopefully nobody believes what you write about beta STs.

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What I wrote is good. I'm simply sharing it so people can learn from my high intelligence. It doesn't matter what type you think I am.

LSI are conformist, SLEs are ambitious

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Originally Posted by 1981slater

LSI are conformist, SLEs are ambitious

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LSIs can be very ambitious, but it's in a slower, safer, more deliberate, more energy conserving way. They're conformists in the sense that they usually submit to some Ti system of thought, but they are ambitious in that they use Se to force others to, as well. Lawls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by discojoe

The mind of an LSI is like a chessboard, with rules and pieces, but the pieces are only moved though the LSI's will, their Se. The Se also keeps the pieces in line, preventing them from breaking the rules of the LSI's psychic Ti manual and making sure they move when they are supposed to.

An SLE's mind is like a flood that carries them toward their destination. To ride the waters more efficiently, they hop aboard boats they comes across and use their inner Ti manual to figure out how to operate them, and they ditch the boat as soon as another, better one comes along that can get them where they're going faster.

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:thumbsup: cool. a similar metaphor could be written about LII and ILE. the Ti in the irrational is kind of like on the fly practical application or something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ananke

Anyway neither of you are typical Se/Ti so hopefully nobody believes what you write about beta STs.

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You're an idiot. I don't even know what system of socionics you subscribe to, but it sure as shit isn't classical.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by discojoe

LSIs can be very ambitious, but it's in a slower, safer, more deliberate, more energy conserving way. They're conformists in the sense that they usually submit to some Ti system of thought, but they are ambitious in that they use Se to force others to, as well. Lawls.

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Yeah, like Saddam Hussein, and probably Stalin too. Slow rise to power, accumulates shit loads of power.

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Originally Posted by Gilly

The metaphors aren't bad, really. "Ananke" is just antsy.

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And a fuck

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Originally Posted by Gilly

Well actually Ezra's suck.

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They were actually just a joke lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ezra

Yeah, like Saddam Hussein, and probably Stalin too. Slow rise to power, accumulates shit loads of power.

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And Putin.

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Originally Posted by discojoe

And Putin.

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Yeah, Putin. Scary motherfucker. Those Ruskies just can't keep their hands off the power. Is it really true Khruschev or Gorbachev were SEIs!?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ezra

Yeah, Putin. Scary motherfucker. Those Ruskies just can't keep their hands off the power. Is it really true Khruschev or Gorbachev were SEIs!?

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It's the first rule of VI that all thoroughly "round" men are SEIs.

In your real world experience, how do they behave differently? There was a good thread on this awhile ago, but I can't find it (I know, I'm lazy). How do they feel in their interactions and in the way they approach people? How does their rationality and irrationality come out?

I'm curious because I don't think I know many LSIs. I thought I knew a female but I'm pretty sure she's ESI. And I think I know one male but I don't see him much (he lives out of town).

Irrationality in SLE...

Me for example, my emotions and decisions are sometimes too easily influenced by outside forces. In terms of mood one minute something will happen to me that will make me incredibly annoyed and serious, and literally the next minute something else can happen that will make me over the top happy...its constantly up and down . Not steady at all like how a rational would be.

This is just an example I was thinking of while I was work today...since im interacting with different things and people at a fast pace. I had coworker today say it was like im on drugs, because every time they would see me, my energy would be very high or very low (which is do to things in my immediate environment affecting me). I keep everything inside, they cant read me so nobody knows what im thinking or whats happening to me, so I guess it appears completely random to everyone else.

From a different perspective, in others words, it just basically means I easily and quite rapidly adapt to my environment.

LSI produce logical structures.

SLE active experience seekers, following experience.

....How you go from LSI to LSE so quickly Martisa lol. I understand where you're coming from, but I have to make something clear.

"LSE is not someone who will agree with going along with an asinine or ineffective system because “that's just the way the world works”. Their rules also don't usually pertain to or govern the actions of others as much as they do their own actions; LSE are likely to let others pick choices for themselves. LSE don't try to implement systems of behavior for other people."

This is wrong. They aren't followers per say, but they do conform to everything around them. Both Te and Ti are both similar and biased in their own way. With LSE (Te) and SLE (Ti), they do what they think is the correct way of doing things, but LSE doesn't have Se...they are blinded by the "facts" they see, they can't see things for what they are. On top of that they don't use Ti in such a way that filters and interprets the information correctly. This is why SLE is called the most sober realistic psycho type, because Se plainly sees things how they are and Ti interprets that information as best as it can into neat logical categories that make sense...usually.

1. Not as emotionally expressive. I agree, but one thing. Me, I show as many emotions as LSE that I show in public. What I do have is high emotionality (values Fe), they go to extremes. You either get very low, in the middle, or very high. LSE is more dry with their emotions, but they show more. Which has to do with #2, they don't keep everything inside (values Fi).

I wouldn't say I easily adapt to the environment on a whim all the time, its sometimes very hard to get me angry and when I do it takes me too long to get out of that state of mind. What im saying is that my moods are highly unpredictable. Sometimes they change fast, sometimes they are even more dry that rationals.

Sorry redbaron for highjackign your thread.

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Originally Posted by Agee The Great

.

Sorry redbaron for highjackign your thread.

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On an off topic. I've noticed Beta types behaving in such courteous/respectful/proper/polite manner towards each other; ask yourself why everyone in your quadra does this.

Then ask yourself why Delta doesn't care about doing this.

I think we should stop doing the back and forth about feelings and emotions because Jung himself said clearly that these things can not be effectively pulled, separated, and categorized. So we can not say for certain which feelings or emotions belong to one or the other.

I think it's really easy;

one accumulates a whole bunch of facts and information
the other strives to experience or broaden experiences

I agree that your moods can change fast; one of the abilities of an IEI is that they are emotional multi-taskers so they can change moods fast too;

An LSI needs a lot more information to decide and act because, for example if you say that Socionics is not correct they need to know to what you're comparing that to; they need to be able to build both sides of the equation, like a chart; one side says correct one side says not correct and they need to gather a lot of information on both sides so that they can make this logical structure and when they do, they can express to you what the relevance of each side is and eliminate the information that is the same on both sides of the equation, and at the same time express what is important within each one that makes that side different and unique from the other.

Since Ti is not the SLE's primary function, they can act without a lot of information and conclusion about that logical structure which I discuss about the LSI; they can essentially be moved by sensory pleasure and quite frankly, they don't care too much about this whole category thing; it serves to understand something that is very serious and in need of a closer look.

If one is a primary function than that is what someone does more of.

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Originally Posted by Agee The Great

Sorry redbaron for highjackign your thread.

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This has to do with the collective feeling/atmosphere.

Polite is easy because it doesn't betray a lot of emotion; that's important because you are close to the vest with your emotions; when you're being polite you're trying not to tell them about your emotions but trying not to rock the boat. This is not honest because you're not sharing your real feelings, but are going along with external etiquette (Fe) and trying to maintain an atmosphere; that's not being polite. You are being polite because if someone wants to talk you can let them talk; you know this is a forum and anyone can talk, but you won't admit it.

Delta prefers honesty to being polite; By us not apologizing we are being honest because we feel that we don't have anything to apologize for even thought this is Redbaron's thread; we feel that we don't have to be overly polite and apologetic because it's a forum, anyone can talk; Delta values individual feelings above the Fe.

LSE having Fe Role are more inclined to behave like a Beta because they are conscious of what people think of them, making them seem as though they are SLE when they really are not. They are not concerned about betraying their emotions but are more worried about what people think of them; they are essentially, insecure.

It's a good time to through this out as an observation, even tough it's off topic.

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Originally Posted by Agee The Great

....How you go from LSI to LSE so quickly Martisa lol. I understand where you're coming from, but I have to make something clear.

"LSE is not someone who will agree with going along with an asinine or ineffective system because “that's just the way the world works”. Their rules also don't usually pertain to or govern the actions of others as much as they do their own actions; LSE are likely to let others pick choices for themselves. LSE don't try to implement systems of behavior for other people."

This is wrong. They aren't followers per say, but they do conform to everything around them. Both Te and Ti are both similar and biased in their own way. With LSE (Te) and SLE (Ti), they do what they think is the correct way of doing things, but LSE doesn't have Se...they are blinded by the "facts" they see, they can't see things for what they are. On top of that they don't use Ti in such a way that filters and interprets the information correctly. This is why SLE is called the most sober realistic psycho type, because Se plainly sees things how they are and Ti interprets that information as best as it can into neat logical categories that make sense...usually.

1. Not as emotionally expressive. I agree, but one thing. Me, I show as many emotions as LSE that I show in public. What I do have is high emotionality (values Fe), they go to extremes. You either get very low, in the middle, or very high. LSE is more dry with their emotions, but they show more. Which has to do with #2, they don't keep everything inside (values Fi).

I wouldn't say I easily adapt to the environment on a whim all the time, its sometimes very hard to get me angry and when I do it takes me too long to get out of that state of mind. What im saying is that my moods are highly unpredictable. Sometimes they change fast, sometimes they are even more dry that rationals.

Sorry redbaron for highjackign your thread.

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No, this is great! Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

This has to do with the collective feeling/atmosphere.

Polite is easy because it doesn't betray a lot of emotion; that's important because you are close to the vest with your emotions; when you're being polite you're trying not to tell them about your emotions but trying not to rock the boat. This is not honest because you're not sharing your real feelings, but are going along with external etiquette (Fe) and trying to maintain an atmosphere; that's not being polite. You are being polite because if someone wants to talk you can let them talk; you know this is a forum and anyone can talk, but you won't admit it.

Delta prefers honesty to being polite; By us not apologizing we are being honest because we feel that we don't have anything to apologize for even thought this is Redbaron's thread; we feel that we don't have to be overly polite and apologetic because it's a forum, anyone can talk; Delta values individual feelings above the Fe.

LSE having Fe Role are more inclined to behave like a Beta because they are conscious of what people think of them, making them seem as though they are SLE when they really are not. They are not concerned about betraying their emotions but are more worried about what people think of them; they are essentially, insecure.

It's a good time to through this out as an observation, even tough it's off topic.

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I don't know about that.

Agee is right, LSE doesn't interpret info, but takes it in or gets it and says this is what it mean; whereas and LSI will say "this is what I think it means." The "I" is emphasized because it's a subjective function not an objective one. But, to say "this is what it means" an LSE like an ESE needs to have a store house of other objective things or experience based on personal trial and error to judge that meaning against. LSE don't say "this is what I think it is" because they choose to proceeds from a place of certainty rather than guessing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

LSE having Fe Role are more inclined to behave like a Beta because they are conscious of what people think of them, making them seem as though they are SLE when they really are not. They are not concerned about betraying their emotions but are more worried about what people think of them; they are essentially, insecure.

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yes, maybe. interesting.

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Originally Posted by redbaron

I don't know about that.

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Not the general whether someone's honest or not. I think we can admit that at this point everyone is dishonest or honest to a degree; I was saying that they are putting something ahead of honesty which is politeness to preserve a collective emotional atmosphere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Agee The Great

I wouldn't say I easily adapt to the environment on a whim all the time, its sometimes very hard to get me angry and when I do it takes me too long to get out of that state of mind. What im saying is that my moods are highly unpredictable. Sometimes they change fast, sometimes they are even more dry that rationals.

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Yes, I think this is true. I see this in SLE friends of mine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

Not the general whether someone's honest or not. I think we can admit that at this point everyone is dishonest or honest to a degree; I was saying that they are putting something ahead of honesty which is politeness to preserve a collective emotional atmosphere.

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okay, yes, I see.

everybody at least thinks they prefer honesty to politeness. and of course those "other people" prefer politeness to honesty. ffs. stop being assholes lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starfall

Maritsa, you've got it all mixed up. Betas, prefer honesty to politeness. Deltas prefer politeness to honesty. Look at any beta on here & you'd see that.

I value ones honesty far more than i value politeness. My SLE is painfully honest, but that is one of the things that i value the most about him. He never sugar coats anything & only tells me things straight up.because of this i have become a better & improved version of myself. Compare this to my IEE mom who's always trying to coo me & tell me how great I am without giving me the tough love that I actually need.

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My IEE mom is also like this. ugh. And then she beats around the bush when she wants to talk about her worries concerning me. Nothing is ever direct.

I definitely *value* honesty over politeness but I'm very polite and sometimes I use manners with people I don't care about, in lieu of honesty because it's easier. I mean... I'm not saying I lie, but, well, sometimes I misrepresent the truth by omission or facial expression, especially to deltas. And alphas. It's just easier. :thinking: :? :(

If I was really honest all the time about everything, I'd have more troubles. Pure honesty is only okay when you're safe. And I'm only safe with the people I'm closest to. And I guess now that I think about it, I never felt safe growing up. Maybe largely with my brother but not really anyone else. So I'm learning how to be honest now. And it feels kind of exhilarating. But I keep the real stuff, the real me, to myself until I find a worthy person to share me with. If that makes sense.

SLE starts with the letter S, has an L in the middle, and ends with an E; whereas LSI begins with an L, has the S in the center, and I replaces the E at the end.

omg I am ROFL with tears rolling down my face. what is with the robotic voices??? And that SLE is exactly like the one I know too! EXACTLY. Too funny. Aw, Maritsa, I don't think I'm EIE, that sort of rule-oriented behavior would make me CRAZY! I'd probably start breaking the rules just to annoy him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redbaron

Aw, Maritsa, I don't think I'm EIE, that sort of rule-oriented behavior would make me CRAZY! I'd probably start breaking the rules just to annoy him.

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Yeah, I think I died inside a little while watching that. (o.o )

I mean, it was perfect. Everything from acting buddy-buddy, to trying to get around the rules, to then turning it around and saying "well then I guess you must not want to win very badly because I'm awesome." That's exactly how they are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starfall

Maritsa, you've got it all mixed up. Betas, prefer honesty to politeness. Deltas prefer politeness to honesty. Look at any beta on here & you'd see that.

I value ones honesty far more than i value politeness. My SLE is painfully honest, but that is one of the things that i value the most about him. He never sugar coats anything & only tells me things straight up.because of this i have become a better & improved version of myself. Compare this to my IEE mom who's always trying to coo me & tell me how great I am without giving me the tough love that I actually need.

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How do you explain the politeness displayed by Agee and redbaron?

Read here, hence my point:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redbaron

I'm very polite and sometimes I use manners with people I don't care about, in lieu of honesty because it's easier. I mean... I'm not saying I lie, but, well, sometimes I misrepresent the truth by omission or facial expression, especially to deltas. And alphas. It's just easier. :thinking: :? :(

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by redbaron

omg I am ROFL with tears rolling down my face. what is with the robotic voices??? And that SLE is exactly like the one I know too! EXACTLY. Too funny. Aw, Maritsa, I don't think I'm EIE, that sort of rule-oriented behavior would make me CRAZY! I'd probably start breaking the rules just to annoy him.

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LSI are not automatons. They are in your own quadra, so they are much like you are, whether you accept yourself as EIE or IEI.

An LSI looks at a social construct and picks and chooses what works; relies on their own judgement rather than authorities; They say "these are the systems in place and these are the things about it that don't work" observe squarks response to the system in place about TinyChat in this post http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post865943


Now, how are you a dual with the lovely LSI, you may ask, redbaron? this is how. Your post in this thread:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post866174

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redbaron

I rarely assert an opinion about something or say out loud to someone that I think this or that is right or wrong. Because I know there's always two sides and rarely do I have all the information. Your dual is all about asserting opinion about right-wrong relations of scenarios, and doesn't feel the need to have “all the information” about a situation to make a valuative judgment, because they base their judgments on personal “gut” assumptiosn rather than information. Refer to the above with squark's post on their assertion in the TinyChat thread.

If, however, I KNOW I'm right, I will assert it, maybe. If the other person objects and I still know I'm right, I'll stand my ground and feel the need to defend it. Like this: "trust me, I wouldn't be saying this at all unless I was 100% certain so the fact that you're disbelieving me is ridiculous". lol I dunno. It's rare though. I hardly ever do that.

If I really don't care, but I still know, I won't say anything. Or if I don't want to get into a disagreement over it. I ALWAYS hold my hunches inside. And I sometimes hold my knowledge inside too, even when I know for sure. I keep it and use it when it's needed but otherwise, why bother. Plus, the more knowledge I have that other people don't have, the more power. Mwahahaha Your duals are not afraid of asserting their opinions if they “know” that they are right.

I guess I know I'm right if I get my information directly from the source, or from several sources I completely trust. I never take rumors to be true.* Again, your duals do not rely on “sources” in the forming of opinions.

I'm OFTEN wrong with dates, names, places, details. But sometimes I get them right. Sometimes I get them *almost* right. But it's funny, like for example, finding a place... if I've been there once before, I can sort of feel my way there. "this looks right" and then I turn and voila! But I might not remember that he told me it was on the west side of the street, for example.*

I think life experience has taught me not to assume that I'm right when it comes to people, their motivations, their feelings. I mean, I'm usually right, but things are often more complicated than they seem, overall.

Did any of that make sense?

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AnLSE would say "what about this system works and how can we work within it and respond to it." You may observe LSE on the forum asking such things as "this isn't going to get me banned, is it?" because they want to work within the system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starfall

Honestly? Polite would be the last word I'd ever use to describe agee lol and redbaron is a classy lady regardless.

Politeness has more to do with how one was raised than type.

Do you still type me as SEE? Lol

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You only seem to want to read the things that are important to you and not everything before making a rash conclusion.

here:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Agee The Great

Sorry redbaron for highjackign your thread.

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You don't know what im usually like Starfall, shut up.

Lol...anyways, Maritsa...yeah I have no idea what you're talking about. I WAS being honest. Being polite means you're not being honest? Doesn't make sense. Read what the descriptions say about how SLEs talk, "polite and with tact", most of the time anyways....and this is even to the point of being -TOO NICE- at times. I can always say what I mean without shitting on everyone, or I can do the complete opposite...which is extremely rare, since I like to keep things respectable and positive (Part of Fe-Ha since I usually receive in return what I put out). And im like this to everyone, not just to people who might be in my quadra.

When I said "sorry redbaron for highjacking your thread", I meant it...because you really had no business coming in here talking about LSEs when the thread is about LSIs and SLEs, and I had no business doing so either, but I had to set things straight.

^ This is called honesty.

Talking about other types allows me to give context to the topic, sorry if it bothers you, but really I don't care how you feel about it.

Um, dunno 'bout that but sure...freedom of speech I guess. Really doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when people don't know what they're talking about, which is what you're doing, so im correcting you.

Read this post:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post866346

OK, we gotta stop getting into a conflict, ok? :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starfall

It's MBTI, but I still thought it was funny. The SLE is exactly like my bf lol. I don't know many LSI's, so I can't speak on that behalf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2etZbhcYqU

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...Yeah ESTP in MBTI is SEE. And thats what I said you're bf most likely is...

Limited experience, but here goes...

Both are prone to making premature assumptions but LSIs are more stubborn, and unexpected stuff baffles and scares them. They can fly into a rage and because of limited :Ne: they can refuse to see other peoples perspectives, other than their own conclusion. May continue to argue even when they have been proven wrong (and they know this) Sometimes when you actually observe these blow ups it's quite scary but entertaining if you're not on the recieving end. Usually don't say sory afterwards...

SLEs are far more changeable and outwardly agreeable, less argumentative, but silently stick to their viewpoint.

Most LSI's have a real problem with people being late & damaging their items/ property/ belonings. They also notice and point out other peoples mistakes, particularily bad driving when you're in the car with them. They like to stick to their own rules.

LSI can be more suspicious of peoples motives, they're more closed off. Like they're more shy about approaching people irl or sending friend requests on fb. Kind of innocent when it comes to that. However it doesn't take long until you're best friends ime - it's just initially more awkward. :Se:-LSI can appear very extroverted amongst friends. :Ti:-SLE can appear introverted... but the temperament Ep/ Ij differences are still there. If any type can stick to a diet regime it's LSI, they have alot of staying power - when they tell others they're going to do something, they usually will if it calls for will power.

SLE's are quick to approach people, and love attention from others. Both are chasers though, they know what they like when they see it - although LSI are a bit more love shy when they're unsure of reciprocation.

Both possess good senses of humour....expect ot get into fits of laughter if you're beta NF. I've noticed both have a tendency to get a job really young and work their way up to the position of manager or director.. instead of completing higher education..but thats purely an observence based on a few beta ST's I know. -need more RL life experience

Quote:

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Originally Posted by octo

SLEs are a lot more embarrassing, i.e. they make fools out of themselves a lot more, and often deliberately, for attention-seeking purposes. It's also a lot harder to convince an LSI to change their minds, whereas SLEs jump to new positions quite easily if you explain why they're wrong e.g. Ezra. SLE-7s are very easy to tell apart, since they're very not-IJ... most of the SLEs I've typed solidly are E7s, whereas the E8s are generally "generic beta ST" :lol:

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Weeeelp. Anybody who reads this and believes what you're saying is a dumbass...juuuuust liiiiike UUUUUUUUUU :D

SLE, not embarrassing....can be silly at times, but despises being embarrassed, this is negative attention. Not attention seeking. SLE are not easily convinced, sticks to beliefs no matter what. If not sure of belief, would not even feel so strong about belief in first place and appear be ambivalent and hands off. Enneagram 7 is cognitive head type many ideas head in clouds, not sensory dominant and grounded, which is E8.


Now, so you can understand what im saying. I will speak in your language. The language of dumbass.
Translation: UHRR GUR UH UH UH UH DUUUUUUUUUUUUUR DOO *** DERP DER HEEEER DU UHDUR DYUUUU!

Stop talking like you know what you're talking about, because you don't. This is why you need Ti.

Edit: Ezra is not SLE.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

Read this post:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post866346

OK, we gotta stop getting into a conflict, ok? :p

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Its not conflict, its honesty.... which you claimed to prefer. But sure :D