I was surprised, when the socion test revealed ENTp as being up there with my INTj type, and so I want to ask those "more in the know" about the differences between these two.
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I was surprised, when the socion test revealed ENTp as being up there with my INTj type, and so I want to ask those "more in the know" about the differences between these two.
well we're talking about NeTi vs. TiNe. Look at my "an explanation of functional analysis" threads in alpha. See which POLR and hidden agendas and role functions fit.
This is not on the socion.info website as of yet, but these are some notable diffrences:Quote:
Originally Posted by UDP
1st/2nd Functions:
INTj - Main emphasis is analyzing logic and continually directing to main point of logic. INTjs May manifest a quite noticable tendency to pick-a-part logical concepts and draw other peoples attention to the fact that they are doing so with whatever abstract details that can conjure up.
ENTp: Main emphasis is the active consideration of various abstract belief systems and analyzing the strength and weaknesses of those systems using analytical logic. ENTps may manifest a tendency to create origional solutions to logical problems and avoid using logical solutions that other have already invented. ENTps tend to not have a loyalty to belief systems that they have found to be inferior and accept new beliefs when found superior.
3rd/4th Functions:
INTjs: Tend to appear reserved around people and may frowns when other people approach them. Have problems feeling that they can love people and may not make many attempts to get to know others closer.
INTjs also tend to be passive people and usually need to be pushed a little by someone else if they have to get anything done.
ENTps: Tend to get bored with people quickly that they understand. They may even be emotionally untactful and have problems understand how others feel about them. They often have problems with being too close or too far away emotionally. They do not do well under pressure and break down in in stressful situations.
Good write-up Reuben.
Based on what is said there, I'm totally an INTj. Especially in regards to my facial expression. I actually studied myself once, and by making an internally feeling odd face, my face looked happy. But if I made my usual expressions, it was a not so happy one, or at least, rather unphotogenenic one.Quote:
Originally Posted by rmcnew
And then, the.... impromptu meeting I just attended... .... well nevermind about that.
When I am feeling very comfortable in my solitude, I get less unrestrained and more quirky in my postings.
nice post, mcnew.
Good post, rmcnew.
I was just thinking, shouln't ENTPs do well in stressful situations? It says so in the ENTP description on this site. My real life experiences back this up too.
Entp's do well in emergent situations, but not chronically stressful situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Full House
hm could you say a little on how INTjs react? Would you say they just avoid such situations? I am an intuitive subtype INTj and I feel I work well under pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze
Blaze, you are probably right.
INTJ's should work very well under pressure. I find that the more pressure that's applied, the tighter and sharper my focus becomes. Answers come out before I think about them and things start rocking along. Problem solvers. Fixers. That's us.
ENTp's like to work in systems in which they can see their progress over intervals and be satisfied with what they've done: they need either a feeling of accomplishment or positive outside influence to make them feel like what they're doing is worth their time.
Not only do I work best under pressure; I only EVER work under pressure. I leave EVERYTHING until the last moment then go into hyperfocus mode and do everything at once. I think my best work is done when I just get on a roll with one thing and keep doing it until I'm done; I have trouble forcing myself to do something that isn't interesting to me, but when it IS interesting, I jump on it and just workworkworkworkwork until it's done.
Then I find something else to do.
I think you are confusing pressure with drive, ENTps get way way down during stressful situations and tend to lose motivation for whatever they were doing or for life in general. However, when an ENTp is not feeling pressured by the expectations others and are at their peak, they can do very very well. On the other hand, place an ENTp in a structured system and expect him to work a certain way, and he'll break down. ENTps are not made to follow the predetermined expectations or solutions of others, they need to feel a sense of freedom in order to function properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by gilligan87
^ and how would an INTj feel about that sort of thing?
I think it is the opposite with INTj ... they tend to do better when they have some sort of outside stimulation to get them going and can handle stress better. The downside is that they can be indirect and passive during times that require a little more assertiveness and need a more structured enviroment than would an ENTp ...Quote:
Originally Posted by UDP
Whatever the case, I personally find it much better('enjoyable') if I plan out my day (I've realized the differences in my first few days of college here...). I like structured environments...Quote:
Originally Posted by rmcnew
So, do INTjs like pressure situtions more, as in, gain something more during those situations, where as ENTps can lose some steam on those more pressure situations?
(I'm not being redundant or anything on purpose, I'm just reclarifying something for myself)
reclarifying?
Well, maybe more like it is essential for INTjs to be pressured and placed in a structured atmosphere in order to be productive. ENTps need a non-pressured non-structured free-for-all type atmosphere in order to be productive.Quote:
Originally Posted by UDP
[quote="Blaze"]ENTP brains work in turbo. They can tackly many things at once, look at things in many ways at once. They seem very quick to me, yet I can still follow every action they make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Full House
Another way to tell the difference between them, especially EN(T)p and I(N)Tj is to use the PoLR and hidden agenda (like the need to be healthy).
how could we see those functions in action?
From an INTJ perspective I can think of supporting freedom of the other. Holding back an ENTP is like taking away their life essence. The more views and angles they can experience for themselves, the healthier they are I think. Having no jealousy? Being able to talk about ideas? That, or I just don't get socionics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonelse
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmcnew
I cannot explain this yet, but....... when I'm put in a more clutch situation, things change tremendously for me. My intuition picks up, and I am better able to implement my :'already in order' logical thought processes. I noticed this today in a class.
Perhaps it's like......
I've always had senses of knowing when to 'pull the trigger' on things, but.... just wasn't prepared or planned enough to insert/asser myself into a situation (so in the past I just did nothing, or sat there uneasily, on the fence between action and inaction, or similar). The difference at this point in my life is that I have already worked out several of the issues in advance, so when the time comes to pull the trigger, those "thought processes", or (hmm...... what's a good way to describe it....... "chunks of logic", or perhaps better - formulae and theories.... they are already there). So...... now that I am confident in those internal formulas, pulling the trigger in situations comes more naturally for me.
I have noticed I've been able to capitalize on situations greatly, when other people are at a loss; today... I .... had an interesting experience, I guess. I don't know how to classify it yet, completely, though.
PS: sp is off because I'm in a hurry. write more later I will.
Aside from outgoingness/sociability/number of friends, what are some general differences between ENTp and INTj?
(I've read the old threads, and the differences given are mostly from a social standpoint, which is not helpful to me in determining between the two)
edit: Could some ILEs and LIIs explain how the specific ordering of Ne and Ti in their thought processes works? I'd like to hear more about how the primary and secondary functions work together, what brings new information in, what makes the final decision, etc. in your own words.
I appear very confident to others, almost arrogant. People have feared interacting with me because they thought I didn't like them, when really I simply didn't want to appear needy in my desire to interact with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by dee
I am aware, I wouldn't necessarily consider myself "acutely aware" in the way say my ISFp friend is socially. I am general spaced out and thinking about other things, but I can also usually tell you what everyone did at a party afterwards, and I'm very in tune with what people are doing (either physically or mentally, e.g. He's trying to get that chick's attention over there, he keeps glancing across the room at her while he shows off his skills at catch phrase) around me (but NOT what they're feeling), whether I focus or not.
I had a very "go away" type of personality up until a few years ago, due primarily to the minimal "common sense" social exposure I'd had. I started smiling in college, and now I'll smile at anyone I see (especially after this last job where that was basically required). I generally make a great first impression on people, as very intelligent, quick, open, etc., but my relationships decline when I fail to follow up. I see the same person the next day and will just say "hi" and walky past because I have no concept of whether we're actually friends or were just bs-ing last night and that person doesn't really want to talk to me again.
Definitely NOT a tactful person. I work at it now, but it isn't natural and I still say very random things at inappropriate times, realize later and worry the person might hate me, then forget about it quickly.
To get out of situations, I don't think I've ever blamed finances or other external factors, I typically will just say I'm going to go do something else now, "I need to drop this off at the post office" or some other activity I had planned.
I've looked over everything the model lineups a lot, and ENTp makes the most sense. I've read them so much that they kind of blend together at this point, however, and INTj definitely has some elements that could be true as well (the astrology effect - suggestibility is probably a factor).
Actually the "social" differences are not as profound as one might think. Do not confuse extraversion and introversion with being outgoing or shy. Though that can be one of the way it manifests, some LIIs may have a wider circle of friends than some ILEs. The most easy to identify difference between the two is temperament. ILEs are much more flexible, but often somewhat inconsistent, whereas LIIs are typically more rigid, but more reliable. Rationals and Irrationals kinda have a different "rhythm" about them. ILEs are often very impulsive, and have fairly pronounced moods, whereas LIIs are often more deliberate, and seem to experience longer, more stable moods.
I talked about this in my typing thread a little bit, and I get the difference between the general psychological "extraversion=outgoing" concept, vs Jungian "extraversion=openness to new experience". I definitely have struggled with shyness or just general lack of social development, and that makes it difficult to tell my true nature. I see shyness as independent of type, something that is a separate issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by JRiddy
As far as temperament, I definitely identify more with EP than IJ. I am an extremely flexible, go with the flow kind of person, especially in social situations. I don't have the J "agenda" or regularity, although I do feel like I carefully think things through at times the way my IJ friends do. My moods change fairly quickly, although I don't have a very wide range of them. I think to an external observer I would appear the opposite, however, especially in social situations when I sit on the couch, lean back, and look around not saying much, possibly talking to one or two friends intensely about various subjects. I would prefer to be involved in the action, and situations where I have been able to "work the room" have been very fulfilling, but I don't feel competent in doing that generally. Would an INTj be internally comfortable doing what I generally do for the whole party, or would he be looking around the whole time keeping tabs on what everyone else is doing the whole time and wishing he were more involved?
Reliability is an interesting thing, I do my best to follow through on all my commitments, but this is a struggle for me and I avoid commitment in general (just ask my ex girlfriends) as much as possible.
Extraversion is not really "openness to new experience". In fact, some introverts are far more open (particularly IPs) because they are less intent on shaping the world around them than say, EJs. But that's a fairly subjective way of describing things. Shyness is not entirely independent of type either, but it certainly is determined by more than just type.Quote:
Originally Posted by diljs
As a Ti-LII, you would value Fe very strongly, and try to make use of it whenever possible, even if your use of it is a bit uncontrolled. Honestly, the extent to which you break things down smacks so strongly of Ti that it seems like it's your most natural tendency. Honestly, you strike me as thoughtful and reserved, and though not afraid to state your thoughts, you seem to want to make sure they are very coherent before they leave you. This really seems more like the IJ temperament to me, even though you may be messy and not as "rigid" as the LII descriptions might suggest. I think that an LII can be comfortable trying to "work the room" if working the room has to do with discussing what interests him, and trying to catch on to the Fe mood. Although I must say that Ti-ILEs exhibit this behavior as well sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by diljs
I meant reliability in different sense, to be honest, as in "less impulsive, more deliberate".Quote:
Originally Posted by diljs
I think the deciding factors for Ti-LII vs. Ti-ILE will be how impulsive you are, and whether you seem to value expression and activation or harmony with your environment more. This can be a tricky thing to evaluate, so think on it a little, and maybe we'll see.
ILE sounds more likely, IMO. VI-wise you remind me somewhat of David Byrne, who is a pretty solid LII-Ne, IMO, but everything else makes me lean ILE.
You are an extraverted type, diljs. There is no question about that. You are definitely an extraverted type, and since you are 95 % that you are an Alpha NT, you have got your type.
I have read your self-descriptions and looked at your photos, and if most of the things you say about yourself are true, then we can say with 100 % certainty that you are an ENTp. Everything suggests ENTp actually. There is no need to even think about any other type, because everything in your profile is typically ENTp.
Those who are suggesting INTj or INTp for you don't know what they are talking about. It is totally impossible for you to be any of those two types. Nothing at all supports such ridiculous type suggestions. It is really irritating that people can be so incredibly clueless when it comes to correct typing.
Since you have provided so much relevant information about yourself, typing you was very easy. It is not often one can be so sure that a typing is correct as in your case.
As you can see from Phaedrus' style of discourse, he is utterly incapable of understanding any real level of complexity in determining types. Though I can very easily entertain the idea of your being extraverted, his offhand dismissal of any other possibilities demonstrates no appreciation for the subtlety of information metabolism. He lacks the ability to distinguish between his opinions and reality, and refers to the former as "objective truth", while deriding the honest pursuit of the latter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
His way of viewing socionics is controversial and generally viewed as fundamentally flawed. However, he does know his type descriptions. Take whatever he says with a grain of salt.
I am HUGE fan of Fe. Makes me very happy. I'm not sure if it's my dual seeking, however, as it's something I've always been conscious of appreciating in the opposite sex. Si, on the other hand, meets EXACTLY the description as the thing that "everyone sees but me", that I didn't think about at all until the ISFps and ESTjs started telling me about it. I also enjoy creating Fe in others very thoroughly, generally joking with my friends whenever possible, even at inappropriate times.Quote:
Originally Posted by JRiddy
I definitely use Ti a lot, however I'm not sure if its my primary. Really I have a very hard understanding the flow of Ne feeding Ti in LII vs Ti feeding Ne in ILE, because I feel like I use both so often. The thing about Ti, however is, yes I edit my posts 10 times each as I think of something new immediately afterwards, but it's kind of a drag to do, the posting takes too long, etc. It feels like I crave free communication, but part of me says wait, think about it first, do you really want to say that, and the creative easy going part goes ugghhhh okay yeah we'll change it. I see Ti as "blah I have to do this so I can make this decision I guess, but I'd like to just make the decision because I'll come to the same conclusion anyway after I take 3 hours building the model."Quote:
Originally Posted by JRiddy
Impulsiveness - this is a challenge. In my life I've been very impulsive day to day in small things, but have had a lot of external influences (strict parenting, strict school environments, and self-editing which I don't think is healthy/normal for me) which have trained me not to be. For instance, I've been interested in the stock market for a while, and I know in my head "buy and hold is the best long term solution for reliable returns and minimal effort", but what I really want is to day trade constantly. These two battle it out and I end up buying really great long term stocks, then selling a day or two later for a small gain or in fear of a small loss. I later watch the stock run up as I initially predicted it would over time, and miss out because I didn't buy and hold.Quote:
Originally Posted by JRiddy
When it comes to "Big" life decisions, I chose my most recent job (which I quit because it was an extremely EJ culture), based essentially on "I don't have any other offers this good, I'm tired of interviewing, and I've never been to this state before. The job seems fairly easy, so why not?" Now that I've left, I've outlined my ideal job as very similar to what I did when I was into ebay: each day I would get up and do whatever I felt like that day based on opportunities I found for aquiring merchandise, anything I needed to pack and ship, and whether I felt like listing anything from the pile in my living room. It was very impulsive and I loved it.
My favorite activities are with a small group, when we randomly decide to go do bowling or to 3 different people's houses, or just drive around the countryside for a few hours - very P environments. With Js its like "on the agenda we will eat at this time, watch this movie, talk for exactly 30 minutes after, then you will leave promptly at this time". I go "hey does anyone want to play this game?" "No, it's not on the agenda, retard."
Wow, this guy. Never heard of him before he was mentioned here. I checked out some videos of him, and his movements are VERY similar to the way I acted on camera the first few times. His hand movements and posture, the way he grabs the water glass, I definitely use the same when nervous. The part where he describes himself a little after 1 minute in are very similar to what I've been saying as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll2M0...2M0yKPrNE&NR=1
You give off a LII vibe to me. Not just with comparing you to David Byrne, but an LII I used to work with.
http://a786.ac-images.myspacecdn.com...a744c50919.jpg
http://b5.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/0...70872325_l.jpg
This guy I worked with was very impulsive too. But I related that to having his hidden agenda in overdrive. Like if he saw a piece of technology he thought was interesting, he would buy it right away to try it. Then if he did not like it he would sell it or return it. Another time when Vista first released, he brought his PC to work just to install it because he could not wait to get home. Because waiting in his words "Would drive him nuts." So I think with him the impulsiveness with not be able to satisfy his sensations in the moment. He also seemed to be impulsive in matters pretainting to hobbies or interest. I just thought he was being rigid even though he was being impulsive. I mention this because, Diljs, I'm comparing it to how you see yourself as impulsive. Usually what I think of as common ILE impulsivity is starting something of interest, then dropping/forgetting that interest for an entirely new interest that is not related to the previous interest. Basically ILE hops from planet to planet, while LII stays on the home planet and decides to move to a bigger house so the ESE can have more space to decorate.
Also he was never satisfied with the way things are, and always thought they could better or more to his liking.
All that crap aside. I think a question should be asked is "How do you handle confrontation?" I have found ILE and LII handle confrontation much differently. That is usually how I tell the difference besides body langauge.
Hmm, that's interesting I used to buy things, wonder why I bought them, then resell them. I tend to be interested in something, forget about it, then come back to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScanDave
On confrontation, I'm not a fan. I will try to change the subject, make a joke, or leave if those don't work. I rarely argue unless it's in defense of someone who is being unjustly attacked.
@ ScanDave
That guy does not look like a LII. He looks more like an ILI. What have you done to rule out the ILI as a possible type for him?
I think you are LII from the video. But I am only comparing that because your body language and the manner you speak of things is similar to the dude I worked with. There heavy focus on Ti too. But I am not going to rule out ILE on that alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by diljs
As far as ILE interest goes, its rare a ILE will go back to an old interest. The exception is if there is a new way of looking at said interest.
When it comes to confrontation, I have notice ILEs are able to handle confrontation a lot better than LII. ILE will not be afraid to argue and argue. However when they see there is little point in what is being argue, they just leave to cool off for a bit. LII I have notice will hide from a confrontation, especially if they feel overpowered. They will hardly ever put themselves in the middle of a confrontation either. I'm not speaking of debating with someone, which LIIs are great at. Moreso heated arguements, with physical aspects.
As for an example. The LII I posted above when an angry customer came in he would hide in the back room and tell me to go talk to him or her. Another time he got in a heated arguement with our ESTp co-worker, it got to the point where the ESTp was willing to get phsyically confrontational, the LII stopped agrueing. The LII then went to the back room and never came back out. When he came back out he said he was leaving early. The ESTp said to him "Stop acting like a girl." The next week the LII transfered to another store.
That strengthens my hypothesis that your co-worker is not a LII.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScanDave
ILE is a fact. As I said in the other thread, diljs body language and manner of speaking is similar to the ILE poker player Daniel Negreanu.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScanDave
chuckling that you've never heard of David Byrne....there are so many young ones on this forum. :)
I actually thought he was ILI at one point. I have never ruled it out completely. But how he handles Se was just pitiful. And there are things I would consider Si hidden agenda, enjoying food pleasure very much but not totally satisfied with his own efforts. Then he would do what I consider Fe dual seeking. Such as coming up to me asking "Where is your smile today." Or taking boxes and wearing them and prentending he was a robot to try and get a laugh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
Also the only ones that got along with him at work were me, and the assistent manager who typed as ESE. His girlfriend is a Alpha SF for sure.
The only thing I found was odd was his almost totally lack of understanding for belief systems outside his own. He was a pretty bright guy but his world views were very political. Basically, I got the impression he did uphold a lot of his beliefs but ran off at the mouth anyway because they were expected of whatever role he saw himself. For instance, he saw a guy with a nice watch and told the guy so. He said to me "I did not mean to covet the guy's possession but he had a real nice watch." And he only says this kind of stuff because he wants people to see him a devout Catholic. However he has no problems breaking these kind of rules at his convience. Even at work he would break rules. He would get chewed out all the time.
Probably not all to it. But all I can think of right now as far as why I went with LII.
I've listened to David Byrne and the Talking Heads a lot, and I've listened to a lot of interviews. He is a awfully good candidate on for LII. You'd likely find his postmodern approach to music somewhat repulsive, Phaed. Check YouTube and Google Video for "Talking Heads" and "David Byrne" and you'll see what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
Btw, sorry about my previous post...it's not really your conclusions that bother me, it's the way you present them. So I apologize and hope that you will not count it against me.
For the record I agree with the ILE typing from the video. However, I think what matters is what diljs decides ultimately.
[quote]Hmmm, that's interesting. I have a lot of abandoned interests - "I'm an expert in this now, done with it", but I also have enduring interests - doesn't everyone?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScanDave
Hmm I'm not sure I've ever been in a truly heated/physical argument. I've always been able to work my way out of the situation before it came to that. When I'm around people that are arguing, I'll try to give them a friendly "knock it off", and if that doesn't work I'll leave. I'm typically very successful if I do use confrontation to get a store to give me a deal on something, for instance, but my :Se: just seems like a last resort that I'll only use if I have to.Quote:
When it comes to confrontation, I have notice ILEs are able to handle confrontation a lot better than LII. ILE will not be afraid to argue and argue. However when they see there is little point in what is being argue, they just leave to cool off for a bit. LII I have notice will hide from a confrontation, especially if they feel overpowered. They will hardly ever put themselves in the middle of a confrontation either. I'm not speaking of debating with someone, which LIIs are great at. Moreso heated arguements, with physical aspects.
Seriously? That I wouldn't do, I would talk the customer out of it and make him my buddy.Quote:
As for an example. The LII I posted above when an angry customer came in he would hide in the back room and tell me to go talk to him or her.
Again, wouldn't let it get that far, I'd just let him win or leave before it got anywhere close to physical. I guess the difference is I'm not as argumentative as your coworker, nothing is important enough to me to get in a fight over. I have this argument with my mom A LOT - "which restaurant we eat at is not a moral issue, let's just go to yours."Quote:
Another time he got in a heated arguement with our ESTp co-worker, it got to the point where the ESTp was willing to get phsyically confrontational, the LII stopped agrueing. The LII then went to the back room and never came back out. When he came back out he said he was leaving early. The ESTp said to him "Stop acting like a girl." The next week the LII transfered to another store.
Wait you said LII earlier, which did you decide on?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScanDave
Phaedrus I appreciate your comments, could you explain with a little more detail as to how you type everyone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
I said you gave a vibe off based on someone I have met that I typed LII. I said that is not substantial enough to rule out ILE. The first half on your first video screamed out ILE to me. But there are similarities there with the guy I worked with. However those inconsistancies could be nervousness due to being in front of a camera and having to post for all to see. Which is why I asked about your interest and confrontation. What you have to say about them leads me to believe ILE.Quote:
Originally Posted by diljs
No. There is no room for any other type than ILE. We can't accept any other type for him at this point. There is no turning back, I'm afraid. ILE it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScanDave
I use every typing method that is available to me. When typing your guy I can only use V.I. and the little information you are providing. His behaviour in confrontations might perhaps be interpreted as an argument for LII>ILI, but it is not impossible for an ILI to act like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by diljs
Why are you saying "No?" I am agreeing with ILE. It is for the undecided to decide. Whatever evidence there may be or whatever conclusion are strong in which ever direction. He is the one that must identify with said type fully. Just because you are confident in his type does not mean he is fully confident in accepting it yet. We would not be having this discussion if he was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
All of what you said is unnesessary. Again does diljs agree? That is what matters. To me at least. That was clear when I said "I think."
I definitely think ILE Ti Subtype might explain some of my challenges socially. Here is my take on the subtypes (parts that apply to me are bolded, italics are definitely incorrect)
ILE Subtypes
Intuitive subtype (Inventor):
(Valentine Meged & Anatoly Ovcharov) Give the impression that they’re flying in the clouds, may appear childish/naïve. A socially adept conversationalist; read much and are inquisitive, willingly discuss new information with associates and are interested in their opinion. Their seemingly shy demeanour combines with coolness and obstinacy when they begin to defend their point of view. They like to discuss but rarely ever end these disputes in conflict. Often smile at associates without need of an occasion. Use an identical smile when they speak about both, ridiculous and serious, subject matter. Attempt being kind to all and do not take personal offence to remarks. In employment they are patient and, despite forgetfulness, tend to finish work which interests them. Gestures and speech seem either slowed down or accelerated. Pose with ease, appear absent-minded, gait and movements seem uncertain/weak-willed.
(Victor DarkAngelFireWolf69) They differ in their excellent sense of novelty. They frequently become the originator of many inventions and discoveries. Unsurpassed generator of ideas. In their suggestions they is very daring. However, they easily drop a project if they are bored with it and they then feel drawn to a new, more captivating project. Capable of working well in business. Dynamic, talks rapidly, with many gestures. Frequently of stocky built, courageous appearance, whiskers (if a man). Great significance is attached to external appearance.
(Sexual behaviour) May appear sluggish but will respond reasonably and affectionately when assured of reciprocity. Loves prolonged preparations and therefore not inclined to hurry. Aim for new impressions and reacts diplomatically to avoid conflicts. Sexual interest tends to bear a periodic nature. With them it is necessary to show tolerance, modesty and restraint. They must firstly be provided with respect and confidence, in regards to their feelings, and then they will easily show initiative and enjoyment. Power in self-improvement is a source of happiness and pleasure.
Logical subtype: (The Selector)
(Valentine Meged & Anatoly Ovcharov) The logical subtype tries to project the impression of a serious person. Can be sharp and, from time to time, even inconsiderate. They are self-assured and speak quickly, usually with a categorical tone. Are unduly categorical in their judgments and tend to impose their opinion on others. Sometimes appears energetic and self-confident; are impatient and cannot always wait for a speaker to finish before interrupting. Often take great new interests and try to find these a practical embodiment; will actively and vigorously defend their interests but after they flare up and offend someone they will consciously make note and try to correct their position. Very ambitious and prone to take offense to mere trifles, however, after a while will again return to an affable and benevolent state. Behaviors are unpredictable and full of contrast. Appear tenacious, gait and gestures seem confident but are poorly coordinated. Pose without restraint, capable of quickly closing a distance, may embrace or kiss the interlocutor.
(Victor DarkAngelFireWolf69) Self-centred and pensive. Their ideas do not have direct connection with reality, for example philosophy, religion, bioenergetics etc. Their favourite occupation is comparing different logical systems. A type of office scientist. A very slim figure is characteristic for them. Angular in their movements, does not pay attention to external appearance, worry little about their health.
(Sexual behaviour) Are somewhat distrustful of feelings, they will only show their own slowly and with time. When they are confident in love are initiative taking, affectionate, and take care to satisfy their partner; always improving sexual techniques. They need a decisive, emotional and sexual partner, capable of quickly convincing them of their feelings and providing reciprocity. It is necessary to make use of constant emotional stimuli: joke, coquetry, jealousy.
For LII, there's no way I'm Ti subtype, I could maybe see Ne subtype with the softer talking and focus on health.
In looking at dual subtypes
SEI - Fe subtype sounds HOT, while Si subtype sounds too hedonistic, so that supports ENTP - Ti.
ESE - Si subytpe sounds better but really both are just too EJ busybody sounding
Again though, I've always thought ENTp except for the social element, which is why I reconsider over and over.
What types do you think are your friends? What are the positive and negative aspects of your relationship with each type?
I think intertype relationships is an importanting aspect in understanding your type.
Check out the third post hereQuote:
Originally Posted by ScanDave
Ok. Your relationship with ESTj matches the ones I have had. Just as a note. And other ones listed make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by diljs
So are there any reservations still for ILE?
No. I say "no" because in this particular case the evidence is so overwhelming that it is not up to diljs to decide which type he is -- unless of course he decides that he is an ILE. In this particular case (but not in general) we can't change our view on diljs's type. That is out of the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScanDave
Yes, but that only means that he must learn to identify with being an ILE.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScanDave
Yes, but that is now irrelevant. It is a proven fact that he is an ILE. We can't change reality. The case is closed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScanDave
No, that is not what matters. What matters is the objective truth, whether or not diljs happens to agree with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScanDave
But not to me. That's why I say "no".Quote:
Originally Posted by ScanDave
That's nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
Can someone tell me the difference? I think I have both.
In short: both are goofy. People usually respect INTj's wisdom, whereas people say ENTps are weird and annoying. Bullies usually harass INTjs, but respect ENTps. ENTps boast their ideas all over, which may change quickly; INTjs are more reserved and they have a logical speech.
I would think INTj's are more reserved and serious.
INTj's shrug off relationship troubles whereas ENTp's take someone disliking them more harshly.
INTj's are more rigidly "logical" than ENTp's. ENTp's are willing to give Ti a break.
ENTp's are high energy, but it's unstable, INTj's are have low, stable energy.
Alot of the above is kinda BS, lol
INTj's are foremost concerned with the External Statics of Fields (External Links) and ENTp's see things primarily through the lense of Internal Statics of Objects (Internal Attributes)
Its more emphasis then anything I guess.
From a dichotomy point of view, their main difference is their temperament.
IJ vs EP
Serious, calm and emotional stable VS energetic and unpredictable
I thought this was an interesting and informative functional description of a couple differences between ILEs and LIIs. I think it makes sense and can probably help people sort out their type question, and also wondering what you think about it.
Quote:
ILE (ENTp) Vs LII (INTj). INTP sociotypes.
full discussion here: http://www.personalitynation.com/soc...ociotypes.html
MensSuperMateriam of personalitynation writes:
A closer look to the ILE and LII ego blocks.
Many of the upper tricks are based in the idea that functions in Socionics behave differently depending on the position (each type will have the eight functions). This is specially obvious if they're part of different blocks, fut unfortunately this is not the ILE Vs LII case. But even inside them, qualitative differences also exist, not only quantitative (stronger/weaker). The most important and obvious difference inside a block will happen with leading (dom) and creative (aux) functions.
The accepting/producing dichotomy. In Socionics, odd functions are accepting. They're the source of information about reality, the data that an user naturally "see" and forms the picture of reality. Leading function, being first is accepting. Even functions are producing. They use the data took by even functions for creating a new product that is molded to that cross-cut of reality obtained by the accepting function. Creative being even is producing.
Being ILEs Ne leading, they should take Ne information (properties, possibilities) and create Ti concepts with it. Whereas being LIIs TI leading, they should create concepts first and deduce possibilities from them.
Let's suppose the concept "to fall" is unknown. The natural way an ILE would adquire it would be something like this: and object could be in option A state, which would be elevated; an object could be also in option B state, which would be on the floor. Both states are extrapolated (Ne seeks for possibilities) to a general case: state A at greater height than state B. To fall will be moving from state A to state B. The concept (Ti data) is deduced from possibilities (Ne data): Ne->Ti.
What an user of a concrete type naturally "sees" should be the limitant factor. An ILE will not easily conceptualize without seeing/imagining previously properties, states, etc. But at the same time, they will not be subordinated to concepts, because these are for them creations instead natural properties of reality, so they could be redone whenever necessary. If an ILE imagines or realizes new properties that are not included in the concepts, they're inmediately actualizated or reconstructed. What matters are properties that can be perceived or imagined (Ne data).
For LIIs the mind process is reversed. The question will not be constructed as "if an object is moving from the top to the bottom, the object will be falling" (ILE mindset) but "if an object is falling, the object has to move from the top to the bottom". They conceptualize first (Ti data) and deduce properties, possibilities, options, from them (Ne data). Ti->Ne. LIIs perceive reality as made from Ti elements which they use for creating options. Ti is the limitant factor for them; they cannot "see" more options than those which come from what matters for them, that is, concepts.
The key, limitant, factor (leading function) could then be recognized by opposing the two ego functions in the thinking processes. The function whose elements are usually actualized should be the creative, whereas the function whose elements causes the actualization should be the leading. An ILE will usually perceive new properties, aspects of reality not previously noticed that overcome existing concepts, being forced to constantly improve them. A LII will usually notice new concepts, "laws" of reality which will offer options not imagined before.
A consequence of this is a curious behavior that LIIs manifest when compared with ILEs. LIIs tend to be briefs in the descriptions of their ideas. After all, once the concepts are created, their consecuences are more or less obvious, so speaking (or writting) to much is something like being redundant. This is not the case of ILEs, who do not know a concept like "too much data/info". They tend to express their ideas in a very lenghty and detailed way.
A clue that could help is the time spent in each task. An accepting function (leading, limitant factor) should be significantly slower in its tasks than a producing (creative) function. The second one produces an output that is deduced (more or less quickly) from the data that the first one has previously gathered (this could be really slow). For example, an ILE (Ne leading) could imagine a really high amount of positions for an object before making a simple evaluation about what "falling" should be, whereas a LII (Ne creative) will not think about this too much because most of these positions will be equivalents in relation to the idea of "falling".
All of this would justify the j LII behavior when compared with the p ILE behavior. LIIs naturally perceive reality as made from "laws" (concepts), what could easily imply rules of behavior, being organized, etc. ILEs naturally perceive reality as made from properties, possibilities, etc. Every possibility will be translated in a particular behavior in particular context (chaotic, disorganized, etc).
The question of accepting and producing subtypes.
There are several subtype classifications, being the accepting/producing the most commonly adopted. Inside each tipe, an user could focus in leading (which is accepting) or creating (wich is producing) function.
Being accepting subtypes focused in their leading functions, they will be the "hardcore" subtypes, whose behavior would fit better in the general description of their types. Producing subtypes are focused in creative functions, manifesting a "softcore" version. They will have an higher probability of manifesting an external reversed behavior (introverted extratims and extraverted introtims), difficulting determining their correct type. Many INTPs, for example, could be in fact Ti-ILEs instead LIIs, specially those with almost absent j behavior. The same should happen with ENTPs, many of them could be Ne-LIIs instead ILEs.
The sequence of thinking will anyway follow which corresponds to their main types.
I've been debating for the past few weeks over which one I think I identify with more, and I am torn. The functions of ILE fit me very well, Hidden Agenda, PolR, and valued/unvalued functions. But at the same time that means that LII does as well.
Basically I feel like I am either a subdued ILE or a more personable LII? I thought the easiest way might be to see if I was extroverted or introverted. I always just assumed I was introverted. But I'm starting to realize that I do tend to feed off social energy in general (extroversion?). I have a habit of seeking solitude though, especially when I'm going through self discovery or self improvement (which is a lot of the time). Whenever I do though, I tend to go a little mad and always feel about 100x better after I get some social interaction.
How could I test myself to see which one I am? Are there any situations where an LII react to a situation where a ILE would definitely not?
I've followed the same train of thought. It felt like a profound revelation to realize that I was actually an extrovert.
How do you feel about an ESE's Fe? Activity partners wear each other out because their base functions operate at full blast. Duality is more stable because the creative function communicates that element in bite-sized, palpable, situationally-relevant chunks of information.
Yes ESE is appealing to me for the Fe, but too much Fe burns me out. I don't know if that's normal and even if I was LIi I would feel like that. My experience with ESE is with my sister she is ESE or acts like one. She can get me really energized through her Fe, but after a point I will start to get annoyed after a while since she is always acting through her Fe it seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by xerx
So if I was LII then SEI's Strong si would bother me? How would that come about? Can even a dual get overloaded in their suggestive function?
I'm not sure if it would get overloaded, but I do know that it's the least discerning function and willing to accept almost any input. I'm not sure if it can be focused away like you could your hidden agenda.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoka14
@xerx, for whatever it is worth, on the "explorer to settler","on the move to settled " perceptual scale I differentiate ILEs from LIIs you have been on the latter side.
I would contrast difference in perspective/attitudes of ILE to LII, as ILEs trying to sail a point of creative instability to get 360 degrees of different perspectives to explore the territory or relativistic sea depending on philosophy, while LII is trying to get x-ray transparent, relationship "motion-stabilized" perspective to which needing to change perspective is a sign of lack.
The intuitive function is definitely one which can need some solitude and turning away from direct stimulation to work, so even if these guys are outwardly focused and all that, they may need more solitude than, perhaps, some Se-leads. On average. Ultimately this is all correlation and speculation - strictly by definition, intuition is just intuition.
The real question is thoroughly studying whether you have the perceiving attitude or rational attitude overall. Intuition perceives possibilities, implicit information and so forth. Both can be concerned with ideas. But where intuition looks without rational bias to uncover the idea (and thus must occur spontaneously, for as soon as you forego spontaneity, you are rationally elaborating the idea), reason looks to do the opposite. Ultimately both these alpha NT value intuition and logical reason. So it may be an implicit difference in psychology only. They both are types that have a reputation for considering even the more "out there" ideas, and tend to be speculative rather than factual.
Remember, the potential of an idea is irrational. You can only observe where it can lead. Reason will stifle the uncovering of the idea's potential in the purest sense, because it seeks to establish a rational purpose for every direction the idea could go. It asks "why can it go that direction." As opposed to continuing the intuition and intuiting the nature of the direction it can go through more intuition.
It's sometimes easier to explain this with sensation. The pure sensation type obtains a much more elaborate knowledge of the sensory contents he perceives and deals with because the moment you rationalize, what you see is partly what you rationalized. You don't see the tree - you see an image together with parts which are associated rationalizations. This prejudices you in a certain way, because a rationalization involves a framework, which you must have gotten from somewhere. It may be a good and useful prejudice, but nonetheless, to some extent, a rationalization is a rationalization. The purest sensation type has the purest "things simply are, and I see them" outlook.
Intuition may do this more abstractly, speculatively, symbolically, implicitly, but it still has that "things are, and I observe their potentials spontaneously" outlook. This is least so in the ILE-Ti of course. But even they must be clear intuitive leads to be considered ILE.
When a irrational type experiences POLR, they may experience it as something demanding rationalization of them in an area they are already sensitive to or weak in, or don't care about, and thus it is offputting.
I decided I'm SEI. I think I have been conditioned to use Ti more though ... I think I actually am naturally very good at processing and receiving Fe information.
I was also thinking which Ego type would really rub me the wrong way and it's Te type which would fit... and Fi ignoring also fits really well. Kind of a 180 lol
I hear that's what the guys thought for you originally. :Fi: ignoring would be EXE though; XEI is :Fi: demonstrative. That is a huge jump anyways, do you understand model A?Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoka14
yeah it is. I think I went away from F and S because I overthought itQuote:
Originally Posted by Ollyx2OxenFree
Oops i meant in the id block, yeah demonstrative, SE ignoring fits well
I understand model A at a very basiclevel, i have trouble understanding where exactly certain thought patterns i notice fit into the model though. because every channel has a lot of nuances that its hard to tell.
Ignoring function is extremely annoying.