Examples of extraverted intuition

I've read this description of how "Ne" works as a base funcition for ILEs and IEEs from the Wikisocion:

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The individual is skilled at generating intellectual interest and curiosity in others and using others' curiosity to get them to do things.

He easily sees parallels between different situations, areas of knowledge or skill, and people, and likes to establish contacts across different fields of knowledge and social groups, which allows him to be part of many things at once. He enjoys considering differing viewpoints and perspectives and seeing if they can be reconciled.

He enjoys the beginning stages of just about anything - new projects, acquiring new skills, experiencing new people and relationships. Preparing for and launching something new is seen as having greater value than the process of experiencing what one already has and finishing what one has begun. The concept of "finishing" seems foreign to him. Instead of taking care to finish things and tie up all loose ends, he tends to drop things when he can't handle them any longer or realize that he has neglected them for too long

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Can someone provide examples of how this manifests in real life? How would I recognize ILEs and IEEs using Ne if I saw it with my own eyes?

Fuck my threads. = (

I don't know if this is saying the same thing, but I suppose one way that the ability to see parallels between different situations would manifest is telling an anecdotal story about a similar sounding situation.

I tend to do this a lot in any typical conversation:

I will listen to the topic at hand and if perchance I think of something "interesting" that I think would shed some interesting insight to the topic or maybe a different way to look at the situation, I will demonstrate this by recounting something that has personally happened to me Edit: or that I've personally observed.

Here's another example. Let's suppose that the topic of conversation is about music and the discussion is more than simply "What's your favorite music?" Like someone says something like "I heard this really cool song today. Here, have a listen." Usually what this does is it will remind me of similar sounding music, maybe artists that are direct influences on the artist himself. So I will say something like, "You know what this music reminds me of? ______." And then go on to explain what it is that I'm hearing and contrast or compare it to what it is that I'm thinking of.

As far as the "finishing" vs "starting" bit, if you know someone who has a long list of things that they'd like to do, but can't really seem to get started on any of the things in the list, and as a result the list actually gets larger rather than smaller, I'd say that's a decent sign that :Ne: is causing that.

But as far as experiencing new things or new people, I'd say maybe that's something like someone who likes to sample various experiences without fully immersing themselves in the experience.

From the wikisocion IEE domain:

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Social experiments

IEEs are often less interested in people than in the social relations involved. They often are "social experimenters" who try experiencing different social situations for fun without really being completely "in it," or setting up situations where they will be able to observe how different people interact. This serves to satisfy their curiosity about social interaction and people's personalities and is generally harmless, though disliked by some.

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These kinds of things are just naturally interesting to watch and observe.

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Originally Posted by jxrtes

For me it's also about finding the irreducible essence of something. The universal meaning behind an idea, which cannot be altered in any way. This lets me combine the idea with other ideas in new and interesting ways.

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To illustrate this, this happened in a conversation I had with Maria yesterday in which I wanted to wrap my mind around the essence and characteristics of :Ni:. It's one thing to tell me some sort of external manifestation and then tell me that this is an example of :Ni:. I'd prefer to go in the other direction -- give me the bare characteristics or essence of the function, so that I can come up with several manifestations myself. It's a bit too clunky to have to "memorize" random examples of things that demonstrate :Ni: and be expected to explain :Ni: effectively to someone should they ask me what it is.

For instance, she was talking about how this idea of sort of nagging or complaining someone to get something done can be construed as an example of :Ni:, but I wasn't seeing why that was the case. I was seeing other elements in that. Then I explained to her what I was hoping to get in my understanding of :Ni: by explaining how I will take the bare characteristics of :Ne:, and how then use the characteristics from that to illustrate and explain examples of :Ne:.

So then when she told me that one particular example of :Ni: is the idea of being able to hurry things up or slow things down, I then realized she was saying that it's partially about the idea of being able to manage time, not time itself, but rather being able to dictate the tempo or pace that some abstract thing or task is moving in.

So, yes, I also need those bare characteristics in order to fully understand the essence of something.

I also do the tangential thing as well; fixated on things closely related to what I'm observing or doing.

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Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica

Well... I have a friend that told me he wanted to quit his job. And for some reason I suddenly just knew he was trying to get a job in my company. How did I "know". I can't really tell.

I called him and asked him directly, and he thought someone at work had told me as, indeed, he was going for an interview the next day. Nobody had told me or even hinted. I didn't even know they were about to interview anyone.

I do such things all the time. ALL the time. Sometimes I know what pieces of reality I put together to find the answer, sometimes I don't.

Think of it as a puzzle. I have maybe 10 out of 50 pieces, but suddenly I know the motif of the puzzle anyway, and can jump to the conclusion. It's almost always accurate. I might have heard something in my friends voice, I might have seen an executive talk to someone they only talk with when someone is going to be hired, etc. I don't even know.

I guess that after I see the whole picture having my 10 pieces, I'll be bored to look for the links between (and the last 40 pieces). That's why I don't find it interesting to finish things. In my head they are already finished...

Don't know if this is a combination of Ne and Fi, though, but it's mostly Ne.

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I definitely relate to this.

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Originally Posted by qbsirena06

I definitely relate to this.

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I doubt much of that's related to Ne base. But other ENps can tell better.

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Originally Posted by Winterpark

I doubt much of that's related to Ne base. But other ENps can tell better.

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Whatever it is related to, I identify with it.

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Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica

Why do you doubt it?

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Because I am not sure it is. And I don't believe in your self-typing much either.

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Originally Posted by qbsirena06

Whatever it is related to, I identify with it.

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I heard you the first time.

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Originally Posted by Winterpark

I heard you the first time.

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Good. Just in case.

:8*

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Originally Posted by Winterpark

:8*

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Your eyes are making me dizzy.

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Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica

Well... I have a friend that told me he wanted to quit his job. And for some reason I suddenly just knew he was trying to get a job in my company. How did I "know". I can't really tell.

I called him and asked him directly, and he thought someone at work had told me as, indeed, he was going for an interview the next day. Nobody had told me or even hinted. I didn't even know they were about to interview anyone.

I do such things all the time. ALL the time. Sometimes I know what pieces of reality I put together to find the answer, sometimes I don't.

Think of it as a puzzle. I have maybe 10 out of 50 pieces, but suddenly I know the motif of the puzzle anyway, and can jump to the conclusion. It's almost always accurate. I might have heard something in my friends voice, I might have seen an executive talk to someone they only talk with when someone is going to be hired, etc. I don't even know.

I guess that after I see the whole picture having my 10 pieces, I'll be bored to look for the links between (and the last 40 pieces). That's why I don't find it interesting to finish things. In my head they are already finished...

Don't know if this is a combination of Ne and Fi, though, but it's mostly Ne.

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i identify with it as well. now i think since i realized i'm EII, this is mostly my Fi that puts those pieces together about another PERSON. i do this with people, not with other areas of life...

Example of Ne behavior (probably mixed with Fi or Ti):

I work as an independent contractor for a large international IT company. Although it doesn't belong to my job description, I volunteered the idea of Brown Bag Seminars (which is well received by both management and personnel), I am frequently asked to do photography (since they discovered I'm always carrying my SLR camera with me) and can even charge the time for that. I also organize social events, particularly ones that I regard to be of an Si nature, e.g. in August we'll be going to an outdoors theater for a play by Maxim Gorki and have a pick nick on the benches under the summer sun.

Because I take the initiative, I'm frequently asked for other stuff. A while ago I was asked to lead team motivation sessions (in order to get a team of developers invent a plan to improve work conditions), or to make pitch videos of new staff (by the way, I suggested that they recruit own staff for that and give these people a chance at 'play', but they didn't want this, they want me to do it).

The essence of IxE types, is not that they just come up with ideas, but that they start acting on it too and thereby create their own opportunities (and often a lot of unfinished bits in the process as well).

This reminds me of something on the wiki IEE Domain:

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Alas, it seems the corporate world doesn't leave room for IEEs to freely do what they do best. Everything the IEE does best is done spontaneously anyways, based on some internal upwelling of ideas or enthusiasm.

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Well, perhaps I'm not IEE, but my experience is that there's a LOT of room in the corporate world for an IxE to do what they do best, provided you have proven your value with your regular duties first!

By the way, my girlfriend (SEI) and I are organizing our first Si/Ne party: we're going to invite some friends over to my spacious living room (I knew it would come in handy some day) to watch art house movies while eating away delicious food. I will invite two Delta friends (one SLI, one LSE) and my girlfriend will invite some of her friends, which I haven't met yet, so I wonder if they turn out to be alphas too. Which each such party, we'll choose a theme, and the first time the theme will be "food". I already have chosen Ang Lee's "Eat Drink Man Woman", but I need a couple of suggestions for art house style movies in which food and drink play a prominent role. Suggestions anyone?

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Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica

Well... I have a friend that told me he wanted to quit his job. And for some reason I suddenly just knew he was trying to get a job in my company. How did I "know". I can't really tell.

I called him and asked him directly, and he thought someone at work had told me as, indeed, he was going for an interview the next day. Nobody had told me or even hinted. I didn't even know they were about to interview anyone.

I do such things all the time. ALL the time. Sometimes I know what pieces of reality I put together to find the answer, sometimes I don't.

Think of it as a puzzle. I have maybe 10 out of 50 pieces, but suddenly I know the motif of the puzzle anyway, and can jump to the conclusion. It's almost always accurate. I might have heard something in my friends voice, I might have seen an executive talk to someone they only talk with when someone is going to be hired, etc. I don't even know.

I guess that after I see the whole picture having my 10 pieces, I'll be bored to look for the links between (and the last 40 pieces). That's why I don't find it interesting to finish things. In my head they are already finished...

Don't know if this is a combination of Ne and Fi, though, but it's mostly Ne.

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these are pretty good descriptions of how leading Ne functions. leading Ne is hard to describe since it's so vague the way the information is perceived. variant data sort of coheses into conclusions, which are reached outside of the body kind of, and the conclusion goes into the brain directly. whereas with S types the data goes into the brain, and the brain then organizes conclusions. with Ne, the conclusions are reached outside of the brain.

i realize this probably makes no sense to anybody.

forgot to say that Ne is correct a lot of the time.

but sometimes it is not. people who do not value Ne choose the times that Ne is not correct to point out how Ne is generally not correct all the time.

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Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica

I agree there's a lot of room for IxEs in the corporate world, at least in Europe. IxEs are the rulers in my world... However, I think a narrow-minded ST-boss might be hell for me.

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From my experience Ne-bosses and clients are good at starting projects and generating opportunities but they can be a real pain in the ass when you have to finish a project (or finish anything). When you have to "deliver". They just tend to create stress and disruption at this point. As if they don't understand that something has to be finished before we can move on to next thing. And they certainly are unrealistic in their demands and usually expect the actual implementation of their ideas to be quick and trivial. This means they have problems staying on budget and agreed timeframe. Not to mean you are like this. Experience probably plays a big role in understanding "realities". I like to work with them if I have someone acting as a sort of "filter" between us. Someone who can sort of control and channel their creativity and turn it into a positive force. Someone who helps them prioritize what is most important to do next and what can be left to be done later on and what should just be dropped completely (=dropped for now). Dropped even from "talks". I think e.g. EIE is a good filter person. Perhaps LIE too. (Edit: In theory SLI or LSE might work even better but I have no experience of that.) They can understand the Ne but can also channel it and shut it down when needed.

I think one problem is that Ne people kind of expect other people to have strong Ne and be as aware and interested of "everything" as they are. I.e. they don't perceive their continuous input of difficult concepts and change requests to be harmful and disruptive. They can't see that it stresses and messes up people with weak Ne or with no preference for Ne point of view. These people don't know what to do with all this input as time and money is running out and new ideas and requests keep flowing. If these multitudes of ideas and request come from a boss or client it is hard to just reject them even when you think you should. Many Ne-people are pretty much never are aware of the practical difficulties people have to face when implementing their ideas and how time consuming it can be. And they don't want to be aware of them. They just want things to "magically" happen for them as soon as they voice something out. This is my experience anyways.

Mimosa, I think what you described has the foundation of Ne to it, but is essentially Fi reacting to Ne.

This is how I find Ne works for me as an ILE:

Let us say that you give me four random objects, ideas, words, etc. Ne instinctively shows me an array of possible associations with each individual item. Think of it like thought bubbles from each thing. All of this happens in the snap of a finger, almost instantaneously it kicks in, all these bubbles happen and while I start applying Ti to make connections, Ne is creating even more thought bubbles. Ne is constantly dividing and dissecting each idea or item, defining them in a thousand ways, taking them apart. Ne is seeing all the possible things that are. Not really physical, quantifiable definitions (though that's a vague part of) rather it sees an abstract how of something. All possible connections, then Ti or Fi picks out the "right" one or starts connecting the dots to make something new. If you've ever done mind-mapping, Ne is producing all the points and Ti/Fi is creating all the connections. Meanwhile, all those Ne bubbles are inert qualities, kind of like potentials, while Se is overt qualities and more concrete.

The difficulty with Ne is that you're not always consciously aware of every single detail that your brain is coming up with, which is why it sometimes feels as though you've made an answer out of nothing. It's too abstract a process to pin down exactly where your perception is coming from. It's an instinctive, intuitive, understanding. Then there are times when someone will challenge what you've said and you need to take the time to find the root of that Ne perception, which is difficult because it's such an abstract process. So sometimes it will seem like we are unsure, or as though we haven't actually thought something through, which is not really true. We just have to catch up with our instinctive process. This is why you'll probably see a lot of Ne's frustrated when challenged by Se-valuers. It's like you need to press the rewind button and retrace the steps and try and quantify your abstract process (which is really difficult) while Ne continues to produce the rails and posts for your Ti/Fi train track. It can be good if these two can work together. For instance, I find working with ESTp's satisfying, because we're like a tag-team. We're providing both halves of that static perception necessary to fully develop an idea.

Right, so I kind of went on a tangent there. Those are my thoughts.

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Originally Posted by mn0good

The difficulty with Ne is that you're not always consciously aware of every single detail that your brain is coming up with, which is why it sometimes feels as though you've made an answer out of nothing. It's too abstract a process to pin down exactly where your perception is coming from. It's an instinctive, intuitive, understanding. Then there are times when someone will challenge what you've said and you need to take the time to find the root of that Ne perception, which is difficult because it's such an abstract process. So sometimes it will seem like we are unsure, or as though we haven't actually thought something through, which is not really true. We just have to catch up with our instinctive process. This is why you'll probably see a lot of Ne's frustrated when challenged by Se-valuers. It's like you need to press the rewind button and retrace the steps and try and quantify your abstract process (which is really difficult) while Ne continues to produce the rails and posts for your Ti/Fi train track. It can be good if these two can work together.

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This is also how I see it. That was a good way of putting it mn0good!

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Originally Posted by mn0good

The difficulty with Ne is that you're not always consciously aware of every single detail that your brain is coming up with, which is why it sometimes feels as though you've made an answer out of nothing. It's too abstract a process to pin down exactly where your perception is coming from. It's an instinctive, intuitive, understanding. Then there are times when someone will challenge what you've said and you need to take the time to find the root of that Ne perception, which is difficult because it's such an abstract process. So sometimes it will seem like we are unsure, or as though we haven't actually thought something through, which is not really true. We just have to catch up with our instinctive process. This is why you'll probably see a lot of Ne's frustrated when challenged by Se-valuers. It's like you need to press the rewind button and retrace the steps and try and quantify your abstract process (which is really difficult) while Ne continues to produce the rails and posts for your Ti/Fi train track. It can be good if these two can work together. For instance, I find working with ESTp's satisfying, because we're like a tag-team. We're providing both halves of that static perception necessary to fully develop an idea.

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or, as i said,

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these are pretty good descriptions of how leading Ne functions. leading Ne is hard to describe since it's so vague the way the information is perceived. variant data sort of coheses into conclusions, which are reached outside of the body kind of, and the conclusion goes into the brain directly. whereas with S types the data goes into the brain, and the brain then organizes conclusions. with Ne, the conclusions are reached outside of the brain.

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also, for myself, reaching into the 8th function for the actual facts and data is helpful in supporting conclusions. i was able to expand this function a lot when i received training in conducting investigations and forensic fact-finding.

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I think one problem is that Ne people kind of expect other people to have strong Ne and be as aware and interested of "everything" as they are. I.e. they don't perceive their continuous input of difficult concepts and change requests to be harmful and disruptive. They can't see that it stresses and messes up people with weak Ne or with no preference for Ne point of view. These people don't know what to do with all this input as time and money is running out and new ideas and requests keep flowing. If these multitudes of ideas and request come from a boss or client it is hard to just reject them even when you think you should. Many Ne-people are pretty much never are aware of the practical difficulties people have to face when implementing their ideas and how time consuming it can be. And they don't want to be aware of them. They just want things to "magically" happen for them as soon as they voice something out. This is my experience anyways.

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this is actually a very fair criticism of what it's like to work with Ne dominants, and why Ne, esp leading Ne, can be a hindrance in a business or work environment. there are limited work situations where Ne is useful and mostly this is restricted to brainstorming sessions, where out of the box thinking is specifically requested, and also Ne can be helpful when the facts and data don't exist and going on one's intuition leads one to facts and data.

this is what actually leads to me say that, in a sense, leading functions usually go overboard and are out of balance, and therefore are of limited practical utility when working with others who don't value them. it took me a long time to realize that implementation takes a lot longer and is a lot more arduous than my Ne would have me believe. so, this puts me in a position of being more selective about choosing what ideas i will pursue rather than being scattered and trying to pursue all of them, distributing my energy so far and away that nothing can be accomplished and i feel totally overwhelmed, frustrated, and stressed out (and in need of Si).

creative functions i think can be more useful in practical application, since you use your creative function judiciously and consciously instead of automatically.

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Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively

this is actually a very fair criticism of what it's like to work with Ne dominants, and why Ne, esp leading Ne, can be a hindrance in a business or work environment. there are limited work situations where Ne is useful and mostly this is restricted to brainstorming sessions, where out of the box thinking is specifically requested, and also Ne can be helpful when the facts and data don't exist and going on one's intuition leads one to facts and data.

this is what actually leads to me say that, in a sense, leading functions usually go overboard and are out of balance, and therefore are of limited practical utility when working with others who don't value them. it took me a long time to realize that implementation takes a lot longer and is a lot more arduous than my Ne would have me believe. so, this puts me in a position of being more selective about choosing what ideas i will pursue rather than being scattered and trying to pursue all of them, distributing my energy so far and away that nothing can be accomplished and i feel totally overwhelmed, frustrated, and stressed out (and in need of Si).

creative functions i think can be more useful in practical application, since you use your creative function judiciously and consciously instead of automatically.

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I agree that this is a fair criticism of Ne leading types. However, I do find myself trying to compensate for this constantly. Realizing that I'm doing this and being very conscious about how it makes others feel, but not knowing how to effectively change it. I am very in tune with how those that don't value Ne are perceiving me at that moment and find myself trying to approach things differently, which just makes me feel and seem awkward, out of my element. Maybe this is an Fi subtype thing?

Are you suggesting that we should purposely try to develop our creative functions in these situations? I think this is interesting. Could you tell me more about this?

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Originally Posted by Sirena

I agree that this is a fair criticism of Ne leading types. However, I do find myself trying to compensate for this constantly. Realizing that I'm doing this and being very conscious about how it makes others feel, but not knowing how to effectively change it. I am very in tune with how those that don't value Ne are perceiving me at that moment and find myself trying to approach things differently, which just makes me feel and seem awkward, out of my element. Maybe this is an Fi subtype thing?

Are you suggesting that we should purposely try to develop our creative functions in these situations? I think this is interesting. Could you tell me more about this?

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yes actually that is what i am suggesting for work situations, but only because you may have very little control over the personalities of the people you work with. like, say if you could have intra-quadra work relationships solely then you wouldn't need to restrict yourself to your creative function. but most of us don't get that choice, which is why work is such a pain in the ass. you have to constantly adjust who you are depending on who you are interacting with at work and how much power they have.

for myself, i simply found better results that people appreciated more through use of my creative function. the creative is a nice place to live when the situation is largely unknown. so, in my job, developing systems, tools, training people on their use, etc. i think i just kind of kept my Ne more private...like, i'd research a bunch of stuff, find out about all kinds of things that might have a good application to my job, but i wouldn't really tell anybody about it until the moment was right. like, for example, i found this great assessment tool, but i waited until it looked like there was a problem with the assessment we were currently using (as identified by an outside expert) to present the new and improved assessment. like, if i had just come out with it, it would have been rejected out of hand and i would have been seen as a waster of time and a dreamer, unconnected to the priorities of the organization.

it also kind of changes depending on who you are working for. like, for awhile, my boss's boss was an enfp, so this leadership really encouraged out of the box. she and i ended up working on a grant proposal together and ended up with a great product which i mostly developed and she sold through her great Fi relationship skills. but later, the enfp was replaced by an isfj....so this is the end of those days for sure. esp since my direct boss is an istj. between the two of them, there's going to be no room for Ne. but i can connect really with with istj on the Ti side...between the two of us we can convince isfj.

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Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively

this is actually a very fair criticism of what it's like to work with Ne dominants, and why Ne, esp leading Ne, can be a hindrance in a business or work environment. there are limited work situations where Ne is useful and mostly this is restricted to brainstorming sessions, where out of the box thinking is specifically requested, and also Ne can be helpful when the facts and data don't exist and going on one's intuition leads one to facts and data.

this is what actually leads to me say that, in a sense, leading functions usually go overboard and are out of balance, and therefore are of limited practical utility when working with others who don't value them. it took me a long time to realize that implementation takes a lot longer and is a lot more arduous than my Ne would have me believe. so, this puts me in a position of being more selective about choosing what ideas i will pursue rather than being scattered and trying to pursue all of them, distributing my energy so far and away that nothing can be accomplished and i feel totally overwhelmed, frustrated, and stressed out (and in need of Si).

creative functions i think can be more useful in practical application, since you use your creative function judiciously and consciously instead of automatically.

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I completely agree and this kind of observation becomes glaringly obvious if and when you enter a business-oriented workplace. I think learning to cope and adapt comes with maturity and experience. It's also why I think that with age people often balance out in a way that makes it difficult to pin point the root of their type anymore. But that's a whole other can of worms. How we adapt our relations becomes largely due to what is more important in our work place and the balance of functions. It might be interesting to study how type and sub-type affects the way we adapt to situations outside our area of natural inclination.

In either case, I think both you and Sirena bring up very valid points of consideration in adapting Ne for certain situations.

I find after talking with a few Ne people that yes, compared to me, their minds bounce all over the place.

Let's use an incredily convoluted and simple example. Let's say that I was told to draw a very simple star.

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/462/neiq5.png

I find my mind would start linearly and go from top and around (Left), finishing where I started, whereas Ne people tend to start at one spot, then start at a different point, then a different point. The picture above represents what it looks like at the half way mark.


Of course I could just flat out be wrong.

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Originally Posted by LokiVanguard

I find after talking with a few Ne people that yes, compared to me, their minds bounce all over the place.

Let's use an incredily convoluted and simple example. Let's say that I was told to draw a very simple star.

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/462/neiq5.png

I find my mind would start linearly and go from top and around (Left), finishing where I started, whereas Ne people tend to start at one spot, then start at a different point, then a different point. The picture above represents what it looks like at the half way mark.


Of course I could just flat out be wrong.

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Good one LV!

Understanding :Se: and :Ne: through boxes

Scenario: Two young children (~ 2-4) who have found a large cardboard box on the floor.

The Se-child plainly sees the box there. He sees that it is a large box. It is a brown box. It has five flat panels with four folding pieces at the roof of the box. The open end is facing up. It is hollow on the inside. The box has the grainy but smooth texture of cardboard. Objects can be placed in the box. The box is light weight and easy to move around. He notices the unique sounds that the cardboard box makes when he moves it around.

The Ne-child sees some object there. It appears to be a box, but it is not just a box. It's a volcano! Lava is spewing out of the top! He climbs inside the box. It's a boat and the floor is the water! He folds in two of the panels leaving the other two flapping out. It's an airplane! The box turns over on its side. It's a dark and deep cave! The box is upside down now. It's a fort and a hideout!

Se-child perceives and manipulates the physical properties of the box. Ne-child perceives and manipulates the abstract essence of the box.

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Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica

Hmm... I kind of though your :Te: would make you more effective...? Clearly the :Ne:-person will finish before you.


Is it the :Si: slowing you down? :lol:

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heh, No, the Si is slowing me down because it was easier to erase the half of the 1st star as opposed to the same amount of lines individually on the 2nd star (on the right). I thought only a jerk would point it out though

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Originally Posted by Logos

Understanding :Se: and :Ne: through boxes

Scenario: Two young children (~ 2-4) who have found a large cardboard box on the floord.

The Se-child plainly sees the box there. He sees that it is a large box. It is a brown box. It has five flat panels with four folding pieces at the roof of the box. The open end is facing up. It is hollow on the inside. The box has the grainy but smooth texture of cardboard. Objects can be placed in the box. The box is light weight and easy to move around. He notices the unique sounds that the cardboard box makes when he moves it around.

The Ne-child sees some object there. It appears to be a box, but it is not just a box. It's a volcano! Lava is spewing out of the top! He climbs inside the box. It's a boat and the floor is the water! He folds in two of the panels leaving the other two flapping out. It's an airplane! The box turns over on its side. It's a dark and deep cave! The box is upside down now. It's a fort and a hideout!

Se-child perceives and manipulates the physical properties of the box. Ne-child perceives and manipulates the abstract essence of the box.

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snap you got it logos. good one.

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Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively

yes actually that is what i am suggesting for work situations, but only because you may have very little control over the personalities of the people you work with. like, say if you could have intra-quadra work relationships solely then you wouldn't need to restrict yourself to your creative function. but most of us don't get that choice, which is why work is such a pain in the ass. you have to constantly adjust who you are depending on who you are interacting with at work and how much power they have.

for myself, i simply found better results that people appreciated more through use of my creative function. the creative is a nice place to live when the situation is largely unknown. so, in my job, developing systems, tools, training people on their use, etc. i think i just kind of kept my Ne more private...like, i'd research a bunch of stuff, find out about all kinds of things that might have a good application to my job, but i wouldn't really tell anybody about it until the moment was right. like, for example, i found this great assessment tool, but i waited until it looked like there was a problem with the assessment we were currently using (as identified by an outside expert) to present the new and improved assessment. like, if i had just come out with it, it would have been rejected out of hand and i would have been seen as a waster of time and a dreamer, unconnected to the priorities of the organization.

it also kind of changes depending on who you are working for. like, for awhile, my boss's boss was an enfp, so this leadership really encouraged out of the box. she and i ended up working on a grant proposal together and ended up with a great product which i mostly developed and she sold through her great Fi relationship skills. but later, the enfp was replaced by an isfj....so this is the end of those days for sure. esp since my direct boss is an istj. between the two of them, there's going to be no room for Ne. but i can connect really with with istj on the Ti side...between the two of us we can convince isfj.

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This definitely sounds like a good idea, especially in work situations, which as you said are usually out of our control. Now I just have to figure out how to do it. :confused: I realize how it works for you with Ti, but Fi is much less practical and I'm not sure how to translate it into something "achievable" the way you would with Ti. I would guess ENTps do have an advantage in this case, at least for these types of situations.

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Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica

Well.... You obviously didn't have the :Ni: to evaluate the outcome, then ...... :p

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:lol: Obviously =p

I think I'm laziest person on the planet, but :Te: saves my ass on many levels.
It's really too bad :Ne: doesn't get the same respect in the office.

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Originally Posted by Logos

Se-child perceives and manipulates the physical properties of the box. Ne-child perceives and manipulates the abstract essence of the box.

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Nice one. I'll have to try to remember this when trying to explain it.

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Originally Posted by LokiVanguard

heh, No, the Si is slowing me down because it was easier to erase the half of the 1st star as opposed to the same amount of lines individually on the 2nd star (on the right). I thought only a jerk would point it out though

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:lol:

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Originally Posted by Sirena

I realize how it works for you with Ti, but Fi is much less practical and I'm not sure how to translate it into something "achievable" the way you would with Ti.

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What you should realize first is that you are not an IEE.

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Originally Posted by Sirena

This definitely sounds like a good idea, especially in work situations, which as you said are usually out of our control. Now I just have to figure out how to do it. :confused: I realize how it works for you with Ti, but Fi is much less practical and I'm not sure how to translate it into something "achievable" the way you would with Ti. I would guess ENTps do have an advantage in this case, at least for these types of situations.

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i wouldn't agree that Fi isn't useful. relationships between people are everything. any job that has to do with motivating other people, selling ideas, getting people to do stuff, smoothing over sticky situations would involve Fi. i would see IEE's as having the people advantage for sure. ;)

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Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively

i wouldn't agree that Fi isn't useful. relationships between people are everything. any job that has to do with motivating other people, selling ideas, getting people to do stuff, smoothing over sticky situations would involve Fi. i would see IEE's as having the people advantage for sure. ;)

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Yes, I definitely see what you mean. I guess I was thinking more in regards to practical matters, which is what I have trouble with...but I guess I should just focus on my strengths and stop worrying about this so much.

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Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica

I've never noticed :Ne: not being respected, as most of the top managers here are :Ne:-leading. I'd say we rather discriminate the IJ temperaments, as they are perceived robotic and only good for routine work (i.e. boring jobs)....

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Yeah, I think it probably depends more on the company leaders and the company atmosphere.

certain IJ's can suck.

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Originally Posted by Sirena

Yes, I definitely see what you mean. I guess I was thinking more in regards to practical matters, which is what I have trouble with...but I guess I should just focus on my strengths and stop worrying about this so much.

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Yeah stop worrying ;)

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Originally Posted by Sirena

Yes, I definitely see what you mean. I guess I was thinking more in regards to practical matters, which is what I have trouble with...but I guess I should just focus on my strengths and stop worrying about this so much.

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yeah! you're awesome! :-) and i'm sure you are very smart, so you'll have no trouble figuring out what to do i'd think. :D

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Originally Posted by LokiVanguard

Yeah stop worrying ;)

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Thanks. :)

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Originally Posted by LokiVanguard

Yeah, I think it probably depends more on the company leaders and the company atmosphere.

certain IJ's can suck.

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Certain anybodies can suck.

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Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively

yeah! you're awesome! :-) and i'm sure you are very smart, so you'll have no trouble figuring out what to do i'd think. :D

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Thanks! And I definitely do appreciate your feedback. :)

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Originally Posted by Sirena

Thanks! And I definitely do appreciate your feedback. :)

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you are welcome, and, thanks to you too! :D

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Originally Posted by Logos

Certain anybodies can suck.

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That's exactly how I was going to respond. And your box example was wonderful. Good ol' LIIs. So good at coming to the point.

Another tereg special: the long post.

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Originally Posted by Sirena

I agree that this is a fair criticism of Ne leading types. However, I do find myself trying to compensate for this constantly. Realizing that I'm doing this and being very conscious about how it makes others feel, but not knowing how to effectively change it. I am very in tune with how those that don't value Ne are perceiving me at that moment and find myself trying to approach things differently, which just makes me feel and seem awkward, out of my element. Maybe this is an Fi subtype thing?

Are you suggesting that we should purposely try to develop our creative functions in these situations? I think this is interesting. Could you tell me more about this?

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I don't think it's as much of an Fi subtype thing as it is just simply the use of :Fi:. Because I find that I am extremely conscious of these situations as well, i.e. understanding where my use of my stronger elements would clash in certain situations when when use of them is warranted, when to reach into the weaker elements to assist something -- pretty much what Sunshine was talking about.

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Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively

yes actually that is what i am suggesting for work situations, but only because you may have very little control over the personalities of the people you work with. like, say if you could have intra-quadra work relationships solely then you wouldn't need to restrict yourself to your creative function. but most of us don't get that choice, which is why work is such a pain in the ass. you have to constantly adjust who you are depending on who you are interacting with at work and how much power they have.

for myself, i simply found better results that people appreciated more through use of my creative function. the creative is a nice place to live when the situation is largely unknown. so, in my job, developing systems, tools, training people on their use, etc. i think i just kind of kept my Ne more private...like, i'd research a bunch of stuff, find out about all kinds of things that might have a good application to my job, but i wouldn't really tell anybody about it until the moment was right. like, for example, i found this great assessment tool, but i waited until it looked like there was a problem with the assessment we were currently using (as identified by an outside expert) to present the new and improved assessment. like, if i had just come out with it, it would have been rejected out of hand and i would have been seen as a waster of time and a dreamer, unconnected to the priorities of the organization.

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I think that's part of what makes good intuition (just in general) is in the timing and knowing when to speak up about the new things that just sprouted up in my mind and when to hold them back. I identify with this as well, and I sort of get a "feel" of when to interject my ideas or thoughts in any given discussion. You might find that I have something that I want to say, but I'm constantly looking for the right moment to say it. This is a concept that I actually see in use in comedy: a well-timed line that really drives the point home and is delivered in a humorous sort of way. For me personally this is how :Fi: will keep my :Ne: in check -- knowing when to act and when not to.


Also, I'd like to reference this page as well when we had a robust discussion of extraverted intuition: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=18095

The discussion actually morphs into a discussion about :Ne:+:Fi: and :Ne:+:Ti: in which some people were helping me wrap my mind around what :Ne:+:Ti: is. I liked what was discussed in there a lot.

Also, this discussion of the various functions in the workplace that seem to be well-suited reminded me of this thread that I made: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=17099

I find that my use of :Ne:+:Fi: is extremely well suited as a System Administrator or providing technical support or web design. My job is flexible enough to allow me to delve into these side projects that I can come up with (I try to be as reasonable as possible with my ideas) in which I can use my abilities as a web site devleoper to create these web-based applications to assist with various (and in some cases tedious) tasks that others have to go through on a day-to-day basis. Things that can alleviate some of the burdens of having to maintain or manually keep track of things by hand.

When I first got here, the company did not have an intranet site (it's fairly small company in scope). Since there were no (and still aren't any) web developers on staff, I am free to let my :Ne: roam and be able to find things that I think would be beneficial to create for the employee's usage.

It started off with very simple goals: just provide a nice central repository for documents and forms that the employees have to access on a day to day basis. The file structure was somewhat convoluted when I got here, files that employees had to access were spead across several directories, so the web pages I'd make would simply centralize all of that without jerking around with the file structure (which would also as a good side effect free us from organizing it at a later time and truly centralize the structure without pulling the rug out from everyone else).

I later added a paid-time off (PTO) application which utilizes a database which basically provided the HR department with a way to manage PTO paperlessly. The way it used to be done when I first got there was if you wanted to ask for time off you had to fill out this paper form by hand and then turn it into HR, which in turn filed the paper requests in some filing cabinet. Seeing this, I had suggested the idea of possibly using the intranet site to manage this for HR. After a couple of months of development (and here's where the :Fi: comes in) and working with the HR department to create a system that's intuitive and easy to use but functions how they want it to function, I was able to get it done.

Here's the thing about that that I thought was interesting: I obviously had my own ideas about how I thought the system should work. And it was an extremely interesting process to see how my initial ideas and thoughts get molded and refined into something more usable. I had to take my own "vision" for the project (the :Ne:) and be able to really listen and understand what the HR department needed the system to do in order for it to be a useful thing.

Anyways, since then I have added similar sorts of things to the site, still with the same freedom I've had since I started it, just being able to find a need or someone suggest something to me and be able to create it for them.

The other thing I wanted to briefly mention was the technical support side of things. In that thread I linked above, I find that :Ne: and :Fi: really come into play in that arena for me as well. I am very sensitive about being able to supply assistance to the widest array (in the computer knowledge aspect) of people as I can. I am very sensitive about not talking down to people and not making them feel like an idiot for asking me questions.

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Originally Posted by tereg

So, this is how I do it. No matter how easy or difficult a problem is, I will not be in a "know-it-all" or a "why are you wasting my time" disposition. Body language can convey that too, so I'm extremely mindful of that as well. It's important for me to make the person that I'm assisting to be comfortable about approaching me with any type of problem, no matter how small or large it is. That was probably one of the most heard complaint I've heard from people who have dealt with other IT guys. "I went to this person to fix my computer, and they were really rude, they were intimidating, I felt like I was wasting his time with my little questions because he acted like he knew what was wrong without me telling him."

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That's the :Fi: side of it. The :Ne: side of it is after establishing this trust being able to use the experience of recognizing patterns or if I can't recognize the patterns, know how to effectively find the solution (i.e. effectively use Google to get what I need). So, one of the biggest keys for me in being able to provide technical support was for me to truly understand the different ways a problem (like an error message or strange behavior) can happen. Once I understood the root, the characteristic, the essence of the problem, the only trigger I need is the manifestation, which would automatically lead me to the array of possible reasons why it is doing what it is doing. Which then gives me a chance to fall back on several options if the first thing I try doesn't work. Usually I approach these issues with a few things already in mind, and if those don't work, that's when Google becomes my confidant. Diagnosing these things in my mind is about understanding the likelihood that a potential cause actually did manifest in the way that it is when I address the issue. :)

So, while all of this is, in sorts "thinking out of the box", it's not doing it to sort of forcefully generate ideas. The generation of the ideas of how to address needs or applicibly finding a creative solution for something that would be useful to have is something I see as more fundamental. This I would believe is sort of the springboard for which "thinking out of the box" becomes possible.

Basically I'm just suggesting a different way to see how :Ne: can be useful in the workplace.

(ooh, there's more :Ne:)

Edit: I like tying things up and together and bringing things back around full circle. It warms me.

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Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica

I agree there's a lot of room for IxEs in the corporate world, at least in Europe. IxEs are the rulers in my world... However, I think a narrow-minded ST-boss might be hell for me. I have some STs executives around as well, and I've heard this (to me ridiculous) phrase coming from them MORE than once:
"Yes, we are aware that you have been our most successful project leader for 3 consecutive years, and we are aware that no other person on your level has ever brought in as much money as you have, but we have this feeling it's a coincidence, as if you have only been lucky... We are waiting to see what happens when you run out of luck. And, yes, we see that you work long hours, with great enthusiasm, but it seems as you always focus on the wrong things, as if you don't know how to prioritize."

These (to me ridiculous) statements must be caused by not understanding Ne, wouldn't you say? I think any narrow-minded person, no matter what function, will tend to not understand other people and their working styles, and in a bad relation, no matter what functions are leading, your style can actually be what prevents you from advancement.

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Unfortunately (or fortunately for your self-esteem), what you mention has nothing to do with your Ne, and everything to do with them being ST and bosses. An ST in an hierachical position of power over you will never lend its power. Your only opportunity for advancement is either a change of bosses, or an ENT or ESF promoting you from above the STs.

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Originally Posted by FDG

Unfortunately (or fortunately for your self-esteem), what you mention has nothing to do with your Ne, and everything to do with them being ST and bosses. An ST in an hierachical position of power over you will never lend its power. Your only opportunity for advancement is either a change of bosses, or an ENT or ESF promoting you from above the STs.

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Hey, that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by FDG

An ST in an hierachical position of power over you will never lend its power. Your only opportunity for advancement is either a change of bosses, or an ENT or ESF promoting you from above the STs.

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Asses. :p

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Originally Posted by FDG

Unfortunately (or fortunately for your self-esteem), what you mention has nothing to do with your Ne, and everything to do with them being ST and bosses. An ST in an hierachical position of power over you will never lend its power. Your only opportunity for advancement is either a change of bosses, or an ENT or ESF promoting you from above the STs.

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sure enough for beta ST's. not sure about delta ST's.