How to find/spot LSIs-ISTjs: observations, stories, experiences

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Originally Posted by Dioklecian

I don't want to promote stereotypes, however Prussia (not necessarily modern Germany) has a very significant military tradition, that is what I had in mind.

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ive never experienced it by myself

I was thinking of the teutonic knights. They seem ISTJ-ish to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Knights

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Originally Posted by Dioklecian

I was thinking of the teutonic knights. They seem ISTJ-ish to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Knights

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phew... i got no single clue cause i dont know anything about them

I think the teutons were INTJ.

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Originally Posted by Dorian

Ive wrote a thread called "Understanding ISTJ"

view here:
http://similarminds.com/forums/viewt...t=1268&start=0

I like to explain. My mind often acts like a computer.
If there were a program, on a normal PC, telling you: Press the "A" Button - else the system will never boot up again - and you press the "B" Button its your fault.
For example: If you borrow money from me and i tell you that i will only do that if you give it back to me the next day and you give it back to me 2 days later - i will never borrow you money again.

I dont take this personally and from my side it doesn't make any change in our relationship, except that i dont borrow you money ever again.
I think: ok, nice guy, but this function of him doesnt work correctly.

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I like this guy. :lol:

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Originally Posted by he died with a felafel

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Originally Posted by islandgirl

I am experiencing something similar myself with an ISTJ.
I dont think he had any issues (or major ones, at least not that he expressed to me) with me, as a matter of fact he said he found something in me he had never experienced with another woman or even another person in his life. Sanctity.
We made plans that fell though because of his military orders which sent him overseas, as the date got closer and closer he unexplainedly got 'further' from me, dropping out of site and touch for periods of time....and now he left over a month ago telling me he would be in contact as soon as he got settled and NOTHING. Not a Happy Holidays, nothing...however a forum we both post at he has been on and off for over a week!

I am shocked and perplexed............

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bump

islandgirl, i've had an almost identical experience with an istj i was dating a couple of years back(save the military part). honestly (and this is biased) i think it is extremly difficult to maintain a relationship with an istj (enfj's and esfj's are much better at that).

As for him disapearing, beware that while away he might have just revised his entire "system" of feelings towards you and decided to go a different way (not tryign to freak you out). On the other hand, i might be perfectly wrong.

Any esfj's or enfj's around here 'd be able to help you out much better than me in this situation (if it is some advise you'r elookign for... :? )

cheers

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Funny thing is, now he has s l o w l y come around, explained himself as disconnecting due to the pressure of moving, adjusting to how our relationship would have to change etc...and says he is no longer withdrawn and acting more like himself than he had in the couple months leading up to the move.....

I AM SO CONFUSED! :shock:

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Originally Posted by Typeless Wonder

Some of the ISTjs that I know, particularly my supervisor at work, have a tendency to give me advice I never asked for and tend to transfer their wisdom in a fashion that feels like they're talking down to me. My supervisor's tone of voice always has this sort of implied "if you weren't such a fucking dumbshit with no common sense, then you'd know that xyz is the solution."

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I know some, one is an aeronautical engineer, and he's just like that. ISTj seem to think that they know better than anyone else; and sometimes they do, actually. But they largely lack tact to tell others about it, and it usually results into conflicts.

Try to get around the issue and it just becomes more heated, because in their mind you're still the one which is wrong and thus you should simply admit that you're wrong. Try to explain something and you're attacking their authority, because if you explain something to them, it is because you know better than them.

But ISTj are good people. I know them from close and are very caring... as long as you submit to them blindly.

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Originally Posted by Dioklecian

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Originally Posted by Dorian

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A country's type is more about culture and values in my opinion.

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Yes but if you'd live here you didnt see the culture cause youre involved in.
If im in another Country, like france, i see whats different in their culture cause i can compare.

Also there are many different traditional german cultures and some new-age-no- culture big city culture.

If i'd have to say something about germany i would say i feel like its a intj country.

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What about all the prussian military history? Armies, genocide, gestapo, that sort of thing?

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Thats a type?

from my personal experience, ISTj are basically blockheads. being a tactless nonchalant freespirit, they often view me as some sort of fool. but they have a soft side to them if you're willing to know them better. and that takes courage and a willingness to let go of prejudice. they will see through any project come rain or sunshine. they can be pretty rigid but if you know how to stick to your guns they'll hear you out. of course, if you're an airhead with weird quirks who forgets to show up to meetings and such then you're out of the picture. they will have no qualms laughing at you behind your back and convincing others that you are ineffectual. and they won't try to manipulate you afterwards like ESTp does. when you're out of their circle, you're just out of their circle. period. i sometimes wish i weren't so much into recycling used people and more ruthless like they are.

anywho, when you get to know them deeper, you are quite surprised to find a soft bleeding heart under all that rusty metal.

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Originally Posted by he died with a felafel

And here is some ISTJ humor:

http://www.snabbstart.com/flash/fd2e372c44

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZdHpYMR4ljY
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kSwYMHkZgLg&watch_response

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I agree that this is the type of humor my ISTj friend would enjoy. :8*

Anyway, if ISTjs generally find the second video funny, it explains why their dual is ENFj. :lol:

ISTjs...do they come across to anyone else as somewhat meek, enormously servile and robotic with the occassional outburst of bad temper? Generally, I do not find them very assertive at all, especially when outside their household. I wonder if I have typed the people who I think are ISTjs correctly.

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Originally Posted by Megan

ISTjs...do they come across to anyone else as somewhat meek, enormously servile and robotic with the occassional outburst of bad temper?

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Defiantly, as long as you're not in their territory or they are not your boss (which is sort of the same thing) most of them won't bother you due to lack of authority. But if they get even half a realistic chance to get above you they will usually try IME.

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Originally Posted by Megan

ISTjs...do they come across to anyone else as somewhat meek, enormously servile and robotic with the occassional outburst of bad temper? Generally, I do not find them very assertive at all, especially when outside their household. I wonder if I have typed the people who I think are ISTjs correctly.

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i've come across istjs like that but those are mostly 'surface' interactions. i've also known the more out-spoken and aggressive ones. sometimes i think that people can confuse estjs for istjs, and vice versa. this reminds me of the 'enfp-infp' thread under general discussion.

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Originally Posted by Diana

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Originally Posted by Megan

ISTjs...do they come across to anyone else as somewhat meek, enormously servile and robotic with the occassional outburst of bad temper? Generally, I do not find them very assertive at all, especially when outside their household. I wonder if I have typed the people who I think are ISTjs correctly.

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If that's so, then I may have mistyped someone who I've typed as an ISTj. He is often referred to as "the mad Russian" and he's not meek. He's very self-confident and assertive, aggressive at times.

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I don't think being meek and servile is a characteristic of ISTjs; however, since they understand structures, hierarchies and power, in a situation where they know they can't win (perfect example: the army), they might appear so. An example would be Stalin in the early days, in relation to Lenin; or Chou En-Lai in relation to Mao (if he indeed was ISTj). Like ESTps, they know which fights to pick (and being IJs, they have more self-control than EPs).

In a situation where the prevailing power structure does not "chain" them, however, ISTjs are anything but meek, they are more like the one Diana described.

This type in youtube claims to be ISTJ. I think he is talking about MBTI so technically he could also be e.g. INTj or ISTp in socionics.

Anyways do you think this is a real socionics ISTj (Ti subtype perhaps?)? He doesn't seem very aggressive to me :D

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxIYYosoBK8[/youtube]

That's a LSE or SLI in my opinion, more probably LSE.

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Originally Posted by Megan

ISTjs...do they come across to anyone else as somewhat meek, enormously servile and robotic with the occassional outburst of bad temper? Generally, I do not find them very assertive at all, especially when outside their household. I wonder if I have typed the people who I think are ISTjs correctly.

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There are the neurotic ones that are openly aggressive and the happier ones that are the way you describe, although they do have a don't mess with me vibe.

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Originally Posted by Expat

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Originally Posted by Diana

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Originally Posted by Megan

ISTjs...do they come across to anyone else as somewhat meek, enormously servile and robotic with the occassional outburst of bad temper? Generally, I do not find them very assertive at all, especially when outside their household. I wonder if I have typed the people who I think are ISTjs correctly.

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If that's so, then I may have mistyped someone who I've typed as an ISTj. He is often referred to as "the mad Russian" and he's not meek. He's very self-confident and assertive, aggressive at times.

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I don't think being meek and servile is a characteristic of ISTjs; however, since they understand structures, hierarchies and power, in a situation where they know they can't win (perfect example: the army), they might appear so. An example would be Stalin in the early days, in relation to Lenin; or Chou En-Lai in relation to Mao (if he indeed was ISTj). Like ESTps, they know which fights to pick (and being IJs, they have more self-control than EPs).

In a situation where the prevailing power structure does not "chain" them, however, ISTjs are anything but meek, they are more like the one Diana described.

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Is it that the assertiveness of ISTjs depend on their position?
It seems to me that they most often appear servile but I guess it is because the ones I know tend not to be in positions of significant power. I know an ISTj and it seems that his superiors in his department at work abuse him by overworking him and he just complies and do what he is told without standing up in any way for himself, it is just so pathetic to watch. I have always suspected that if he got some power he would be very different, because he is not very nice to most people in lower positions to himself. In comparison to say ESTjs who will usually stand up for themselves regardless of their position in the system, he just seems somewhat spineless. I guess this ISTj (if I have typed him correctly) will just continue to "bow down low" until he gets some power or something.

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Originally Posted by FDG

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Originally Posted by Megan

ISTjs...do they come across to anyone else as somewhat meek, enormously servile and robotic with the occassional outburst of bad temper? Generally, I do not find them very assertive at all, especially when outside their household. I wonder if I have typed the people who I think are ISTjs correctly.

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There are the neurotic ones that are openly aggressive and the happier ones that are the way you describe, although they do have a don't mess with me vibe.

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Yes, I can see this quite often.


In terms of behavior etc how can one easily and quickly recognise ISTjs vs ESTjs?

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Originally Posted by Megan

In terms of behavior etc how can one easily and quickly recognise ISTjs vs ESTjs?

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Slap them in the face. If they look astonished, say you are mentally disturbed and then walk away -> ESTj. If they slap back twice as hard -> ISTj. Ok there are ISTjs who wouldn't slap back if you are a stranger or a boss (they would always slap a friend or lover) but I would be damned if even a meakish ISTj would just walk away after being slapped in the face.

To be more general the point is to challenge them in a mentally or physically aggressive way. ESTjs consider this behavior "disturbed" where ISTjs are likely to get agitated and even aggressive.

Edit: I think Kristiina once put it nicely when she said that it is sort of the ENFjs responsiblity to bring the aggressor out of ISTjs. If you think they are pathetic meek servants then you should express this to them. Keep kicking them and you should see them increasing in power. Behind every successful ISTj is an ENFj from hell.

Edit 2: Perhaps you should look at ISTjs as your personal soldiers. You have plans, you have strategy but you lack the tools. ISTj is your optimal tool after you just learn to use them.

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Originally Posted by Expat

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Originally Posted by Diana

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Originally Posted by Megan

ISTjs...do they come across to anyone else as somewhat meek, enormously servile and robotic with the occassional outburst of bad temper? Generally, I do not find them very assertive at all, especially when outside their household. I wonder if I have typed the people who I think are ISTjs correctly.

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If that's so, then I may have mistyped someone who I've typed as an ISTj. He is often referred to as "the mad Russian" and he's not meek. He's very self-confident and assertive, aggressive at times.

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I don't think being meek and servile is a characteristic of ISTjs; however, since they understand structures, hierarchies and power, in a situation where they know they can't win (perfect example: the army), they might appear so. An example would be Stalin in the early days, in relation to Lenin; or Chou En-Lai in relation to Mao (if he indeed was ISTj). Like ESTps, they know which fights to pick (and being IJs, they have more self-control than EPs).

In a situation where the prevailing power structure does not "chain" them, however, ISTjs are anything but meek, they are more like the one Diana described.

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I have seen a wide spectrum of aggression in ISTjs too. The quiet, studious sort, for instance. Could this be a subtype thing? Perhaps IS(T)js are likely to be less aggressive. Either that or I need to retype some people IRL as ESTjs.

The ISTjs I have known IRL seem to be not very fond of physical affections even from their loved ones. :? My ISTj best friend seems to hate and be really uptight about receiving hugs, having her hand been held or even standing very close to someone. :lol: I have a bad habit of standing very close to people (especially people whom I'm very close to) and it kind of bothers her alot. :lol:

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Originally Posted by XoX

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Originally Posted by Megan

In terms of behavior etc how can one easily and quickly recognise ISTjs vs ESTjs?

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To be more general the point is to challenge them in a mentally or physically aggressive way. ESTjs consider this behavior "disturbed" where ISTjs are likely to get agitated and even aggressive.

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More like enjoying it.

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Originally Posted by Megan

Is it that the assertiveness of ISTjs depend on their position?

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Yes, as everyone's, to some extent. However, "not being assertive" does not mean "being a sycophant". The "meek because he can't win the fight" ISTj will be polite ("because that's what people do") to a boss he despises; but he won't go out of his way to kiss the boss's ass, either.

On a equal basis, the ISTj will usually be very assertive, at least in a passive way.

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Originally Posted by Megan

In terms of behavior etc how can one easily and quickly recognise ISTjs vs ESTjs?

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XoX's idea wasn't too bad.

"Easily and quickly" --

The ISTj, when voicing his opinion, is more likely to make "to the point" and clear statements, "this is so", while the ESTj is more likely to sound more flexible, reasonable or, to some, "insecure".

The ISTj is more likely to seem calm, unflappable, someone who will keep his head in most situations - unless in periods of extreme uncertainty, when he will seem extremely agitated and a nervous wreck. Very little in between. The latter is rare, though.

The ESTj is more likely to make a restless impression, someone who can't seem to be able to stay quiet for long, a "I should be doing something" feel.

The ISTj is easier to picture as an inspector, policeman, or soldier. The ESTj, as a boy scout or middle manager.

The ESTj is more likely to either need a very rigid schedule and follow preset appointments - or tend to get focused into what needs to be done at the moment and lose track of his schedule. The ISTj dislikes putting things off, but he's more comfortable with working without a preset schedule.

The ISTj man (women are different) is likely to present a mostly low-emotion personality most of the time, but he can "let go" in social occasions or when enjoying a joke or very angry. The ESTj is more likely to present a polite, friendly but very slightly shy persona most of the time, and not "let go" like the ISTj.

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Originally Posted by Expat

The ISTj man (women are different) is likely to present a mostly low-emotion personality most of the time, but he can "let go" in social occasions or when enjoying a joke or very angry.

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ISTj women are 10x more neurotic.

Another try to add video content...Method Man was typed as ISTj in another thread (with a small chance of being ESTp).
[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=du1UViOs4Hk[/youtube]

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Originally Posted by XoX

Another try to add video content...Method Man was typed as ISTj in another thread (with a small chance of being ESTp).
[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=du1UViOs4Hk[/youtube]

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:shock:

What type is the other guy?

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Originally Posted by force my hand

What type is the other guy?

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INFp? I don't know :) The whole thing seems kinda Betaish.

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Originally Posted by jaja

maybe it just happens that the ISTJ's i know are good people.

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lol

the istj's I know....truly want to be correct people....although they tend to judge harshly others publicly...and themselves privately.


i think it is the public lashing they give that make them seem not so pleasant to so many people.

I've known one ISTj who was particularly good at observing others. Once, we were riding in his car and he pointed at a driver next to us. It was a middle-aged man with a mullet, shades and a graying goatee. He drove a red pick-up but seemed more suited for a Harley. He said: "You see this guy... he's a drug dealer." Now, I always thought of him as a paranoid freak and this seemed to confirm my assumptions. When we stopped at an intersection, the so-called drug dealer got close to us and said: "Hey wanna score some drugs?" I was amazed. The ISTj later thought that it might have been an undercover policeman.

ISTj is predictable. Always sizing people up. Always trying to uphold the rules and establish their leadership or rather dominion over others. If one doesn't follow their guidelines they will quickly push them out of their immediate environment. They seem to be quick to adapt to new sets of hierarchies. They are your closest ally one day. Then they get a promotion and become sticklers for political correctness and whatnot. The time they spent with you seems then only to have been used to study their future down-trodden employee. They often think they're impartial. Yet, oddly enough this impartiality often suits their personal needs and goals.

Being my contrary relation, it always seems like ISTj tries undermine me and everything I say. I don't want to sound overly negative but, i think they're the most paranoid of the 16.

Perhaps, i'm being too harsh. There are a few good things about them i ought to add. They can let loose when the time calls for it. They are sure to uphold the strict rules without ever bending them to their wishes. Rather, it is their wishes that are set to conform with the rules. It makes them look like they're stuck-up but they are truly do-gooders. Anything poking out of this limited vision leads them to panic. And as long as they don't feel betrayed, they'll always stand by their family and their numerous friends.

When I started this thread I was hoping to bring out the positives about ISTjs. Since then I have been working with a woman I believe to be an ISTj of the :Se: subtype and it has been an extremely unpleasant experience.

I find it very difficult and stressful to follow her rules as precisely as she expects without even the slightest deviation. I think that she is always watching me with an eye on whether I am breaking the rules...stress :8* . Then she sets these little "tests" for me to see if I am of the mind to follow the rules... more stress. I usually spot her little tests but just ignore them. I do not care what she thinks of me, she seems to have a talent for creating "drama" from very small things and does not seem to understand that other people around her are very aware of their option not to tolerate her crap. She seems to want others to engage in a displays of :Fe: and try to provoke it out of them. I think I have a right to feel what the hell I want and I do not appreciate others trying to influence or force emotions out of me.
Then because of her, this ENXp guy that generated some of our best ideas left...never have I respected him more than the day he said he would not put up with her behavior and told her to f**k off and walked right out. I think she is an extremely poor manager of people and try to control them by placing all sorts of stupid rules upon them and terrorize and bully them into following them. She is very spiteful towards people who do not follow her rules and the only time she seems to become creative is when she is seeking ways to punish such people.

I am about to leave the situation which has brought us together because it is just getting worst. There is totally no room for creativity, no room to add anything new, she seems unable to consistently see that there is more than one way to do things or to be as a person. Also, it is like she wants me to be treating the people who I supervise harshly if they are even 2 minutes late for work etc. She likes to keep paper records of others shortcomings and she will even get them to sign letters confirming that they were 2 minutes late, then she files these letters away safely only to produce them at a later date to use against them. I do not give a rat's ass if they are 20 minutes late if I have assessed that no negative consequence will arise due to that and they are generally doing the job they are supposed to do well. Around her I get the feeling I am suffocating. All the talk is about the stupid rules/regulations/policy which is just oppressing the heck out of me.

After I have establish some distance from her then I think I will try to post something positive about an ISTj person who is a better example of the type.

ISTj are minions of ENFj.

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Originally Posted by jaja

he's really patient

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:lol: Really?

maybe this was already mentioned many times before but the greatest quality of an istj is his steadfastness/loyalty in carrying out all duties. i'm drawing from a good human example who does not have to threaten people or test them (i know istjs like these exist and they are a real bane). a psychologically-sound one can be a very obedient (and simultaneously civil) "servant" so if he has decided to adopt a set of ideals and those ideals serve a good cause, he will be indispensable to the leader he helps and can do much good in his community. he will "outdo" many people. furthermore, this servantship is one that he is proud of because it testifies to and aligns with what he believes in.

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Originally Posted by eunice

The ISTjs I have known IRL seem to be not very fond of physical affections even from their loved ones. :? My ISTj best friend seems to hate and be really uptight about receiving hugs, having her hand been held or even standing very close to someone. :lol: I have a bad habit of standing very close to people (especially people whom I'm very close to) and it kind of bothers her alot. :lol:

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Are you sure you aren't confusing her with an ISTp. I really do enjoy hugs from people I know - and I think I would have to considering my dual is ENFj.

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Originally Posted by thehotelambush

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Originally Posted by Expat

The ISTj man (women are different) is likely to present a mostly low-emotion personality most of the time, but he can "let go" in social occasions or when enjoying a joke or very angry.

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ISTj women are 10x more neurotic.

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Originally Posted by mikemex

ISTj are minions of ENFj.

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This is how cults are formed.

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Originally Posted by FDG

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Originally Posted by XoX

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Originally Posted by Megan

In terms of behavior etc how can one easily and quickly recognise ISTjs vs ESTjs?

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To be more general the point is to challenge them in a mentally or physically aggressive way. ESTjs consider this behavior "disturbed" where ISTjs are likely to get agitated and even aggressive.

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More like enjoying it.

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Especially Se subtypes, yes.