Uncomfortable topic but it has been said at an INTP site that INTp, INTj and ISTj are the types most likely to be racist based on myers briggs research.
Thoughts?
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Uncomfortable topic but it has been said at an INTP site that INTp, INTj and ISTj are the types most likely to be racist based on myers briggs research.
Thoughts?
First thought: MB is a load of crap
Second Thought: Ti is critical, but it's not incredibly biased like you're suggest it is; in fact, I'd go so far as to say that Ti is the least biased Judging function. After all, it's all about logic, and racism is irrational. I would think Te, which is more openly critical and less reflective, would be more prone to racism.
Some of the most racist people I know (including my ENTj mother) aren't even aware of the fact that they're racist. Some will tell you outright that they despise racism. It's entirely subconcsious, for most people.
That makes no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Depending on whether one assumes these MBTI types to be equivalent to socionics INTp, INTj and ISTj, all they would have in common is strong :Ti: or :Te: . In that case, why not ISTp, too? Or ESTj and ENTj, for that matter?
You sure he wasnt talking out of his ass? Ive never read that from MBTI stuff so either I missed something or the story teller is full of crock and wrongfully justifying his thoughts externally =p
People delve way too much into this shit. Socionics and MBTI are merely theories. They cannot explain racism and global issues. Stop over analyzing and stop trying to use a simple tool where it does not belong.
^^^ yay.
Wouldn't it be strange if some of this stuff were actually true? I mean, it's easy to just discredit this kind of stuff, but one never really knows for sure...
Come now, that is an absurd idea. Some one asked me which type was more likely to go bald the other day. :8*
Ok, but WHY is it absurd? And don't give me the common sense answer, either.
A. Many other factors preside over this single thought.
B. No conclusive connection figured at the point in time.
Show the relation as true and strong... if not, waste of time.
Because trying to segregate such things into 16 categories is insane. One cannot be BORN racist, you must be made racist. If you wanted to be really vague I’m sure you could cut it down to a few types that prone irrationalizing things of this nature, but even then I would highly doubt it’s accuracy. We can only speculate, and of what use is that?
Is it not decided that we cannot change our type? So should it not make sense that things related to type cannot be as subjective and small as racism?
Is this common sense? Hmm, I think it might be. But what other answer is there?
It's obsurd because I hate Jews, Mexicans, Africans, and Asians... and I'm none of the types listed above. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cone
(...I don't have to mention that the above was a joke, right? Mystic got attacked when he joked about this, though...)
Actually, I don't think it's absurd. I could definatly see some types, such as thinkers or whatever, more easily slide into rasicm, although cultural influences would affect this. I can't really see more ISFps than INTps turning into racists.
Racism is multi-leveled. The acceptance of a racial thought is enabling of it as well. So, you can see how Fi and Fe can equally be tied to racism. I'll show an example with an Fe:
X person: Racist remark.
ExFJ: Ahhh, I see. Yeah *laugh*
Fe is enabling the racism ^_^ instead of saying, "Hey... that is not funny." or leaving the scenario.
Just like every other conjecture we make on this forum. It's great to think this way, but you should all watch your tongues (and so should I :? .) It seems to me that we all think way too emotionally. How is this topic any different from "Introversion and Perfectionism" or any of the other topics we come up with?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadae
It's not all that different universally. The majority of topics seem to have little do with actual science and more to do with being around like-minded folk. I think when I first came here I stated that the same happened to MENSA. It became little to do with getting anything done and more about being social for them...
Eh...
*sulks*
Sorry =/ I can lie to you if you want :(
really?! then i must be an exception, with my international and inter-cultural friends, the diversity of which greatly exceeds those of my peers' friends. even resisted being 'brainwashed' during university to view other races as alien to mine, even if they're fellow citizens, and even inspired classmates to band together across racial divides to become one of the few classes in my faculty to have great inter-racial relations.
:8* and anyway, who said 'according to MBTI theory' anyway? what would the reasoning be? it has been my experience, where i am, that types who are dependent on social approval succumb much more easily to racism when senior members of the group advocate racism. in this scenario, types who are indifferent to social approval tend to be resistant.
although perhaps if the prevalent view is not pro-racism, but the ideology seems tempting to realise a goal that could be seen as salvation to the greater society, it is possible that the types listed may advocate it. and then rely on the majority of the masses who are approval-dependent to adopt the ideology and perpetuate it.
Jadae speaks the truth.
This is the type of refutation I wanted. I only suggested that guest's post was true, because you can't just refute something because it "doesn't make sense".Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirana
Which is why you have to look at multiple sides and weigh them as more true or less true. It is less true due to patterns greater than this from a sociological perspective (and probably other perspectives as well). Sycophant said it perfectly if you look close enough-- it is a nurtured quality. It is biological to discriminate in order to survive. It is social as to what is being discriminated for. If you want to relate it to functions, which is a huge stretch, then Te and Fe are the most discriminative functions as they are judging the external world. But even then... they can also discriminate through compare/contrast motions not to.
And you must not assume that people are coming to such conclusions simply because things don’t make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cone
Te dominant can be the most bigoted for sure. Good example: both actor and character played by last holdout Lee J. Cobb in 12 Angry Men is ENTJ. (btw that movie lends itself very well to typing...)
Cone is right. There is NO WAY to know if this is legit or not. Saying it makes no sense only addresses the assertion that it does. We don't know what research went into these apparent findings, and it is not entirely outrageous if they are true. While I fail to see how Ti correlates to racism, responding with emotional derisiveness at the notion is immature and infantile.
To the OP: can you link to these findings so a constructive dialogue on the subject can proceed?
Also, one of the mentioned "racist" type uses Te, so this seems to correlate to logic as a creative or foundational function, although I am conjecturing.
"Show the relation as true and strong... if not, waste of time."
Part of my issue with all of these temperament theories is that they have LITTLE OR NO STUDY shown. It's beyond annoying and I find myself pressed to even care.
Actually, I could make a case for most of the functions, but I bet it'd be easier to work in reverse since so many could easily apply. So, which functions are least likely to tie into racism? I'd so go with Ne but I do know one ENFp friend that REALLY hates Mexicans although she states it as an issue with border-crossing pregnancies and lack-of-responsibility-mothers so... not sure what to think of that LOL. What about Se?
Another issue is how one would define racism. Like I said, an Fe may or may not be blatantly racist but could be one under sociological definition through the use up upholding racism rather than demoting it (passing it, basically), institutions and enabling.
I find that people behave how you expect them to. I therefore avoid stereotypes. Anyone can be lazy or dangerous or whatever.
The Fe-Ti of alpha-beta lends itself to a colder, impersonal form of inclusiveness while the Te-Fi of gamma-delta to a warmer, personal form of exclusiveness. I can see how gamma would consider the thinking of alpha-beta to lend itself to racism because they are tuned to look for the personal Fi as a sign of one's humanity. Fe though is currently the standard-bearer against racism in America. Fi is undoubtedly a better safeguard against racism, but it requires the extra ingredient of actually intimately knowing people of other races, something that doesn't happen often. Which means that when Fe fails, fed by a power-mad Ti as it did in Nazi Germany, that is when the racial shit hits the fan and you have social breakdown. Te-Fi racism on the other hand is more constant: covert, pervasive, and institutional.
The movie 8 Mile is a good showcase of some of these dynamics, and both the best and worst example of the way racial relations can be portrayed. On one hand there's realistic-seeming interaction amongst blacks and our delta protagonist, whose bonding is clearly Fi, and thus much more persuasive to an audience than if it were Fe. This serves to ground the movie. On the other hand, written into the plot (institutional Te -- Eminem approved but didn't write) are vivid demonstrations of two of cringing whitey's biggest fears: big-dicked blacky taking your girlfriend (calling Eminem's character Rabbit only makes this more obvious and comical -- oh, and throw in a quick, presumably small-dicked fuck scene), and monkey-faced blacky burning down the neighborhood. (and for good measure show some of them dancing in front of the burning house like insane apes) One needn't argue a conspiracy to believe the plot rigged, only a realistic understanding of how large institutions work. (call it an unconcious conspiracy if you like -- or an "understanding" between key players)
Two words: Jerry Falwell.
... and I think he is an ISTj...
One emoticon: :8*
http://en.thinkexist.com/quotes/jerry_falwell/
My favorite one...
“(re: 9/11 attacks) "...throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools, the abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked and when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad...I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who try to secularize America...I point the thing in their face and say you helped this happen."”
edit
It's horrid but it may or not be just one ISTj stance. Plus it disreguards a multitude of factors.
cause, like, racists are like evil, you know? like, anyone that says bad things about black people is evil, you know? like, i like black people, i am going to live in a black neighborhood!
I think that white people are most likely people to be racists. i like to think that most people love eachother.
I eat at chinese restaurants.
no, black people are the most racist people I've known
some can be ^_^ they usually have good reason for it lol (not that I think that is right...)
keep in mind though that I live in one of the most segregated cities in the world... and it's not that way just because that's how the white people want it
Some black people are hopelessly racists, and almost unforgivably ignorant. A lot of white people are like this too.
exactly my point
Hey we agree, yo~
edit.
I <3 your mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
Fucker. That's all I have to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky
Funny thing is some blacks are prejudice against other blacks. Like when my black friend was working during the day and going to school at night to get her college degree, her other black friends accussed her of 'wanting to be white.' Go figure!
Oh, and Rocky -- is sperm kosher? :shock:
Yes.
Well I don't think I've ever seen an IxTJ over fifty who wasn't almost completely bald....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sycophant
Even females? Altho a lot of men are bald past 50 lol. I assume youc ould be right in a few select small towns!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky
...
Sigh. Just in case this comment was directed at my post:Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
The term "blacky" was used in the voice of the white middle Americans who were the ostensible target of the propaganda, and was chosen to convey the dark semi-concious id processes of this simple-minded audience. It was not meant to sound clever or to denigrate people of African American heritage. (I assume you understood this, but in case others did not, there you go.)
wait... so rocky drinks sperm? :shock:
yeah right
on crank yankers -- old tv show -- one jewish girl called someone after a blow job and asked if sperm were kosher, just had the same situation :oops:
I sure am glad I have better things to do than watch shows like that, or most TV in general
Answering to this topic is impossible. But it reminded me that ****** was ENFj and Stalin was ISTj,Hussein was ISTj, so perhaps the Beta might be the quadra who represses the most people around the world. And the Delta is the one, which is the most democratic. But I am not so sure this can be taken seriously.
An :Fe: type ?
Uhm.... you know none of that as true. Knock that shit off, it is quite stupid. Quit putting the quadrants into a subjective hierarchy.
Oh come on, Jadae...you can't say you've never thought of having your own little army of ISTjs at your command...
I think saying that ANY type/quadra/function is the "most prejudiced" is rediculous. While :Fe: and :Fi: are most prone to bias, :Ti: or :Te: could be just as racist if they've been brought up to believe that certain things are true.
Besides, instead of looking at who the major world leaders who promoted racism were (even though Stalin would not be one of them), if we were to make any sort of accurate judgement, we would have to look at the supposed types of the thousands in jail for hate crimes. World leaders are so detached from the violence and pain that they inflict that it can't possibly be assumed that they are the "epitome" of racism.
Hehe World Domination is fun! :lol:
btw, well said Gilligan. (The main parargaph moreso than the ISTj bit :P )
Yeah, I know that, it's stupid all right.
BTW, Jadae, what do you think of the Relation of Benefit. By socionics you are in that with the ENTps and I notice how you show up every time when some ENTp posts an answer. What do ENTPs think of the relationship? I 'm sorry, if I sound stupid by saying this. I'm just curious if this thing works.
Oh, and I got my medicine and I should be able to do harder mental activities
like thinking more complex, so I should be able to use speller to check out my mistakes and to eliminate them.
I wish a beautifull day to all of you in America!
EweQuote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Ben, Ishy's BF who has hijacked the computer: America is an awfully large country to ensure a beautiful day all the way across.Quote:
Originally Posted by male21
is that guy is an xxxp?
ESTpQuote:
Originally Posted by UDP
I think racism is about ignorance and has nothing to do with type at all. I taught a diversity education course to managers and staff in a company and many had misconceptions that affected how they thought about different races regardless of personality.
If you don't have many close to you growing up for you to see what they deal with in person and to enlighten you on that perspective, it puts you at a bit of a disadvantage when it comes to understanding or empthasizing to that perspective.
Basically, I found there were a lot of people who had no idea their attitude was so xenophobic because their opinions were based on misinformation or lack of information which was causing them to have irrational fears. Information can be very misleading if you are only being fed part of it. Once provided with additional information, many felt much more aware and emphathetic.
There are actually lots of ways. Census information is one way. It can give statistical demographics as to income level, standard of living, and job type of individuals according to area and compare them with other groups of the same area.Quote:
How do they actually measure racism?
Some workplaces will have self-identification programs so they can do workforce analyses to see if they have gaps in certain areas and identify why there are gaps.
Sometimes its internal policies that are inadvertently causing the gap, a lack of qualified applicants in that area, advertising for positions is missing those local communities, unspoken hiring policies of people looking to hire individuals with similar value systems (which is actually a form a discrimination). Maybe there just no people of that race in that area to hire.
All this stuff has solutions accept maybe the last. In which case, you wouldn't worry about it. But if there are not qualified applicants you can always do things like have a group promote that field to schools and to make sure its a welcoming informed environment.
As for the black on black racism, I see it more as the heirarchal structure of society being emulated down through the ranks. White people do this too with the whole trailer park trash thing. Rather than deal with the problem they take comfort that they are not the problem, even if they inadvertently are. They are looking at the symptom which they see as a problem (which it is) but don't always look in the right direction as to what's causing that problem.
I think poor people, crime, etc. is a reflection of our society as a whole. The more of it we have the more of it we are causing. e.g.not paying attention to the wages of the poor because you feel that because you worked hard to move up the ladder they can do it too. With increases in costs of living, service type jobs don't always keep pace with inflation. That can lead to higher rates of crime which does impact on you, your property value etc. etc.
People of a different ethnicity or race have to be bi-cultural in many senses. The US and Canada have different integration philosophies. The US has the "melting pot" philosophy, while Canada has the "Vertical Mosiac" philosophy. In the VM philosophy, people's diversity and individuality is actually reflected all the way up the ladder. People should not have to be forced to be like you culturally to fit in.
The Melting Pot philosophy is that all the different groups mix to melt into a larger group different from each as an individual. The problem with this is that if one particular group has a larger contribution to the pot then the contributions of those other groups is minimized, so their needs are not met in that society.
If society is the cause of the problem, I don't see a direct relation to personality type. Now, I might agree though that some types are more likely to express racist comments because they believe they are right and want to get on a soapbox or just because they lack sensitivity.
Interesting post Polly_G
This is my problem with socionics and what probably drives some practical types like ISTp away. Socionics has a 16 types and a bunch of functions which have been well researched, but not much else has been researched thoroughly, so it hasn't really developed a lot since it was 1st invented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadae
This is the problem, people debate endlessly about type vs a whole number of things, but without hard evidence through studies and tests etc all this debate is essentially pointless. Socionics = real interesting and certainly has many many things right, however there has not been enough research beyond the basics to explain many of the questions found on these forums.