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Certainly not. What we can observe in dbmmama's writings is a clear focus on N. You guys seem to believe that there is an enormous difference in attitudes between ENFjs and ENFp. There isn't. Both are NF types, and as such they have a lot more in common than what is indicated if you narrowly focus on quadras as most people on this forum do. STOP FOCUSING ON THE QUADRAS!Quote:
Originally Posted by JuJu
Basically, they are saying it because they don't understand the types correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbmmama
There is no big very important difference between them. They are both the same type, and that type is the EIE. You should definitely not try to find out your subtype at this stage. Forget all such thoughts at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbmmama
I haven't yet read this thread before, but I've got some spare time before I head off to uni, so I'll reply.
Fe/Ti valuing quadra is certainly a given. I don't understand why people are calling you an IEE; nothing you've said resonates with a Fi quadra, and you're clearly interested in theorising in what I consider to be an Alpha SF kind of way. I think you're Fe leading, and my initial thoughts were ESE, but then EIE makes more sense in other ways. For example, LSIs can theorise and enjoy it, just as any Ti type tends to, but are no means the deep, know-it-alls that you refer to, which I think you're implying what are in fact LIIs. These are the true theorists of the Enneagram. Your spirituality also suggests you're a Ni type as opposed to a Si type; Si types tend not to place much weight or emphasis on this. Your being messy could easily imply Si PoLR.
My opinion is to PM crack (ESE) and Kristiina (EIE) at length, and see who makes the most sense to you in terms of wavelength and mindframe.
That you are an idiot is certainly a given, because everything you say here is total bullshit. Everything dbmmama has said so far is perfectly in line with how ENFps actually are. The only problem with that is that we cannot rule out for sure that it might also be consistent with ENFj.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
The quadra is not at all given here. If we would try to type by quadra (which is exactly what we shouldn't) then there are clear indications of both Beta and Delta.
This total shit about "theorising in an Alpha kind of way" is as close to pure and pukeworthy nonsense as anything can possibly be. Because there is no Alpha SF theorizing. Such phenomonon doesn't exist anywhere in the world. Alpha SFs simply don't theorize. They basically hate theory in any form. ESFjs and ISFps are totally different in almost every respect from how dbmmama has described herself so far.
Which means that you totally ignore the arguments and indications against :Fe: leading that have been presented in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Total bullshit again. LSI don't like to theorize. They don't hate it as much as the ESFjs and the ISFps do, but they totally suck at it. LSIs are extremely practically minded and almost totally against theorizing. But they can be very focused on implementing systems in practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
No, no, and definitely no. It suggests that she is an N type as opposed to an S type. Nothing else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Messiness indicates irrationality in general. Nothing else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Thanks Ezra,Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Everything you said I completely agree with, even the theorizing in an Alpha kind of way. I personally do believe in the quadras. I see them played out IRL everyday.
Because many of the things I do in my parenting are Si kind of things, the moms in my social circles tend to be SFs and my sis, my best friend, is an SF or a possible Delta NF, still valuing Si. I'm bombarded with SF women! When I'm completely myself, I'm "too harsh, "aloof," "too opinionated, direct and vocal about it." Hell, I've even been kicked out a homeschool group because of it. I've had to "act" more SF for the sake of my kids to "fit in" enuf for them to have a social life in a support network in the homeschooling community. So I keep my big mouth shut about "my stuff" to keep the peace for my kids' social life's sake.
I think I'm closing the door on IEE. I know people who fit the description of Delta, some close family members, and even the thought of their liberal wishy washyness is making my skin crawl. :) If IEE is like the others I know who are Delta, then no thanks! Just too sofffftttt for me.
I'll see if crack and Kristiina are interested and/or willing.
Btw, I've read some of your posts before jumping in here and I really like what and how you say things. :) I like a "no bullshit" person.
Love,
Kelly Jo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
Phaedrus,
To make something absolutely clear, **I** determine my main type and if I want a subtype and deem it appropriate, I'll have it!
I appreciate the time and effort you put into helping me with your opinions but they are just that, your opinions. As Riddy said, only I know me well enough. I was looking for other ideas to help **me** figure out my type.
At this point, I think you're wrong and can't admit it. Thanks anyway! :)
Btw, just the fact that I like, understand and agree with Ezra should give you some indication where my values lie. :)
Love,
Kelly Jo
although I do like getting PMs, it seems to me that this kind of thing could take some time and a lot of talk. And I rarely like writing for only one person to read. I sometimes like exchanging lots of PMs with Ti dominants, but less so with other types.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbmmama
But I am kinda curious what type you are and I think it will be fun talking about different functions and EIE ESE differences etc. I think it should be a public discussion, because I am not always a very typical EIE and it literally took years for people to see me as an EIE at all. I propose you make a thread about EIE vs ESE and we just discuss those function difference things there. I'll try to post there frequently and other people can comment about EIEs and ESEs that they know.
Cool, I agree on doing it as a thread, a public discussion. I'll set it up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
Love,
KJ
Well thanks. I suppose your bitchy nature puts me off tooQuote:
Originally Posted by dbmmama
Love,
Meatburger :D
See? I must have it right then! lol Thanks meatburger!Quote:
Originally Posted by meatburger
Love,
Kelly Jo
You're welcomeQuote:
Originally Posted by dbmmama
Love,
meatburger lol
I said that :DQuote:
Originally Posted by dbmmama
How did you do in the P for Phenomenon article? Just thought I'd ask you for the third time :p (out of curiousity, as i'm sure your ENFj :))
Love,
Cyclops xxx
lol... just seeing
"Love,
Cyclops xxx"
:D LOL. :D. TWILIGHT ZONE!!!!
Your first posts sounded like they could be either ENFj or ENFp. A couple of posts I identified with at least somewhat so I thought maybe ENFp. But most of your posts are at least somewhat contrary to ENFp. And who said ENFps are more decisive than ENFjs? I don't think so at all.
I think ENFj. You seem to value Se. You have an Ej temperment IMO. You have strong Fe, but ENFps have that too.
Cyclops,Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops
I think I mentioned the P article somewhere, but I came out as identifying with it after A LONG TIME. Overall, if I say I'm going to do something, I do it. I do have those P tendencies, why I also see Ni subtype for me, but overall J.
Love,
KJ
Hi Slacker Mom,Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
I've read some of your posts and identified with a lot of what you say. I do have ENFp friends and I think there's a chance my sis is ENFp or ISFp. I never said I don't DO or believe in many ENFp ideals, I do. But, I do them in ENFj ways! HaaHaaHaa! :) I also can't see ENFps as more decisive....
Thanks for the post!
Love,
Kelly Jo
I agree with ENFj for dbmmama.
On the "ENFj and ENFp being not so different", and not focusing on quadras, issues.
The ENFj has as dual the ISTj - who is none other than the conflictor of the ENFp.
And, obviously, the ENFp's dual, the ISTp, is the ENFj's conflictor.
Which is precisely where we get into socionics. The ENFj and ENFp are quasi-identicals, they may be both NFs and what not, but they have to be different at a very deep level if they disagree so completely on their ideal companion.
Which is why you should, yes, focus on quadras to truly understand types.
The Cyclops concurs in terms of the intertype focus in this instance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
But may the Cyclops ask, Can Expat see something already, in internet intertype relations?
You are right to the extent that the type you think you are makes sense and you don't logically contradict yourself. That means that if your claim that you are an ENFj is consistent with how you describe yourself, if you identify with EIE type descriptions, if you identify with extraversion, intuition, ethics, and rationality in the four dichotomies, etc., then you are entitled to call yourself ENFj, and neither I or anyone else would have reason to doubt the correctness of your self-typing. You can of course choose to add a subtype too if you feel like it, but subtypes have no real value when it comes explaining differences between different types. It is still the 16 main types that are the basics and what we must focus on in the first place. It is a bad idea to jump to conclusions about your subtype before you are 100 % that you have got your main type right.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbmmama
And just to make it clear, you have no right to act like Ezra has done so far on this forum, that is, your opinion deserves no respect if you would (hypothetically) contradict you yourself like he has done. If you say that you are an ENFj, then you are also an ENFJ in MBTT, you necessarily belong to the socionic Club of Humanists, etc. Ezra's claim that he is an SLE in Socionics and an ENTJ in MBTT and Keirsey is contradictory and therefore false.
My opinion on your type is totally based on the information you have provided so far. If you admit that some of the first things you said about yourself were incorrect, then of course I have to change my view on your type. You have described your behaviour as irrational, so that description must be modified somehow first.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbmmama
No, not really. Ezra's correct type is still under a big cloud. He is most likely an ENTj, despite his own self-typing as SLE. And if he is not an LIE but really is a SLE, then he is of course deluded regarding his MBTT type and his own behaviour according to the four dichotomies.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbmmama
nicely said. People get into the mbti mindset, and start typing based off of the four dichotomies and whatnot. If we're looking at types from a cognitive standpoint, an ENFj is more like an ISTj than an ENFp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
before you freak out, think about it...
But we should not focus on quadras at an early stage in the typing process. That's simply a bad (= unreliable) typing method. Of course the ENFj and the ENFp are different at a very deep level, but they are also very similar in attitudes, interests, and so on, at an observational level, which is what I have been talking about here. There are much more visable similarities between ENFps and ENFjs than there are visable similarities between members of the same quadra. It's just an unlucky coincidence that the types are grouped together in quadras on this forum. It doesn't have to be like that, and it is not the most natural grouping of the types.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
That's just totally false.Quote:
Originally Posted by strrrng
ENFj and ISTj use the exact same functions, albeit in different orders. ENFj and ENFp use completely opposite functions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
Irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by strrrng
IS THAT SO??? lol....Quote:
Originally Posted by glamourama
right, lol, I forgot: functional preference is completely irrelevant. my mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
That's not what I said, and that's not what I meant. My comment was only related to your false claim that an ENFj is more like an ISTj than an ENFp from a cognitive standpoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by strrrng
I meant functional...they perceive shit through the same hemisphere...Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
There's truth that ENFj and ENFp have a lot of similarities, and then there's truth that they have differences because of quadra values. Like, both ENFp and ENFj are strong in Fe, Fi, Ne, and Ni. Figuring out which they value and which they don't isn't always obvious up front. When looking at quadra values, it's sometimes easier for me to look at the functions that are weak. Weak valued functions and weak unvalued functions look more different to me than strong valued functions and strong unvalued functions. So the OP seems to me to value Se. That works for ENFj but not for ENFp.
Everyone uses every function, but whether someone appears to like using a function, is comfortable using it, seems to value it but is helpless at it, etc., is the thing to look at.
yes, you're aware of valued functions and unaware of unvalued functions. It's not black-and-white, like, use or non-use; it's about focus.Quote:
Originally Posted by galmourama
I am going to take this in consideration because I have a nasty habit of being completely unobjective with myself and may have said things that felt right and like me at the time but may not be consistent with me overall. I see myself as I am and think and feel right then. And since that is always different, my description of myself will be different at different times of the day, week, year.....Everything I say about myself is correct but I don't really know if it's correct overall for me. Is that kinda weak Ne? I know things right now and about how I've developed over time, in and out of time....and who I am 40 years from now....and when I was 10....but an overall thing, no. So, I think I'm still a bit confused about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
In person, I'm not so Fe as you all are making me out to be. It's easy to type on the keyboard in an Fe way online. It's not so easy to be that outgoing in person. I'm much more introspective and intense in person. I'm a pig but would hate for anyone in person to "discover" that about me.
My sis, whom I believe to be SEI, has been my model for "go with the flow." And I don't go with the flow the way she does. I do and am impulsive but controlling at the same time.
If you truly believe I'm irrational, I want to look at that and see what you see. My inner self is telling me there is more there to explore.....
Love,
Kelly Jo
No. At least Jung would have seen it as more likely an indication of strong Ne. It rather indicates weak T, especially weak Te.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbmmama
Another thing I wonder is how much we can really trust of the things you say. How much do you trust your own test results, for example? How likely do you think it is that you are one of the two types ENFj or ENFp but not any other type?
As for your possible irrationality, the first things you said of yourself was so perfectly in line with how leading :Ne: types are described in the literature, and nothing really contradicted that hypothesis. Since then you have said some things that could perhaps be interpreted as making the case for ENFj stronger than it was at first, but I can still not see why ENFj would be a more likely type than ENFp. The evidence is not totally conclusive either way.
Have you compared these two descriptions of what it is like to have leading :Fe and leading :Ne respectively?
http://www.socionics.us/theory/be.shtml
http://www.socionics.us/theory/bi.shtml
Which one do you think describes you better?
Both. :) really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
Here's my description of how I see each of the elements at work in me.
Fe: I read other people's emotions like no one's business! I have always been a very emotionally high strung, passionate individual. Expressing my own emotions in healthy ways...it sure doesn't "feel" healthy to me.
Ne: Interests, new and interesting interests, learning new stuff, yes! Fun! It has to be interesting and new ideas and ways of seeing things.....but not interesting to be interesting, I'd rather it be fun too. Even though I'm serious, intense and passionate about those new interests that I flit around from and to all my life.
Ni: The world is all symbolic meaning. But I don't go around talking about it all of the time. I can tell when someone is "open" to it or not. I read people that way. Most are not. Everyone's "answers" are within. Even though I enjoy the search outside of myself too. There might be something "outside" of yourself that triggers an inner knowing just as much as the inner knowing coming to you on it's own.
Fi: This one I may not be that clear on. I don't care for social customs or cultural stuff. At the least I expect my children to respect others as they respect themselves as they BE themselves. I am about the individual WHILE they respect others too. When my second boy had a mohawk, that was his individual expression. I think someone who valued Fi would not allow their child to have a mohawk because it goes against societies way of being. But I would not allow my child to express himself in a way that DID hurt or harm or disrespect others or hurt someone's feelings ON PURPOSE. Live and let live.
Se: This one is weird. I value it and disvalue it all at the same time. I do not like, at all, anyone else to force or physically force me or my children, my family to do anything that we don't want to do. But, I'll use it on you if you do. I WILL "fight" for what I believe in. Harmony, smarmony at that point!
Si: I like to feel good and comfortable and enjoy nature and being outside most of the time, including barefoot almost all the time. But for the most part, I don't notice my own body sensations unless someone points them out to me.
Ti: I think I think I think too much. I analyze everything to death. I don't know if I'm actually good at it, but I do it constantly. I think my black/white, right/wrong thing is this.
Te: Not good with practical. I'd forget my head if it wasn't on my neck... :)
Right now, I'm learning something about myself in my life. My hubby and I have been taking care of his elderly, ailing mom since the new year and we've been not living together. I was there with the kids for a few months and now he's there with her. It's only 20 minutes away and we see each other every day, but complement and complete each other. Whatever type I am, I believe he is my duel or damn close.
Without him and his influence, I'm learning that I'm the one with "balls" and he's the one who calms me down and helps me to not take life so seriously. "Don't sweat the small stuff and it's all small stuff." But, I am the one who has the "balls" to fight anyone on anything that needs it for us in our lives. As much as I'm into Love, Light, NF stuff...., my natural inclination is to "fight" and "analyze." I'm definitely a "Beta fighter" as Strrrng said but I'm not the kind that needs an LSI or SLE to fight for ME. I'm the one who has always "protected" others.
Without my hubby's influence around me, I'm turning into my natural "tyrant" self and it's very odd because I know I married him to help calm that down in me and make me laugh. And he married me to give him some "balls" and to get off his ass and do something already. :)
Is this all correct? Yes, it is. As well as everything else I've said. :)
So, if I'm an irrational, then the only logical conclusion is SLE with my hubby being IEI, with me "looking" like an EIE because of 17 years of his influence on me. And he can "look" like an LSI with my influence on him. :)
Love,
Kelly Jo
And if I'm still EIE, then my hubby is IEI wanting me to be more SLE like and I want him to be more LSI like. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by dbmmama
I know I'm getting closer......
Love,
KJ
.
Please enlighten me then, because THAT was the only thing that steered me away from Fi toward Fe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana
Love,
KJ
yesQuote:
Originally Posted by Diana
yes what?! it does or it doesn't. i'm racking my brain right now trying to figure that one out. if it doesn't, then i'm completely different...i'm fi. i'm a bitch for THAT reason then. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by strrrng
love,
kj
it doesn't. even so, you're still Fe-valuing - just look at how you wrote the post I quoted lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbmmama
Hey, Kelly Jo is coming over on Monday and I will try to get a video of her then. Should I just start taping her when she doesn't know it or interview her? How big can it be and still post ok? Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by macysmama
Hey girl! You better not start taping without me knowing it. :)
I see you made it here ok....
Love,
KJ