ProChoice vs ProLife

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Originally Posted by hkkmr

Yea, that's how the law works, it's not very forgiving. But I want to be forgiving on the subject of abortion so I don't want the law to outlaw it. And thankfully it is protected until people outlaw it again, which will happen, which will make me sad and make me lobby for it to be change back and it will change back... and it'll start over again... and people will fight this battle over and over and over and over and over until someone figures out a better solution. And TBQH, it's just a huge pain in my ass that instead of people working towards better solutions, the work at better ways to denigrate and imprison each other. So.. yea it kinda of pisses me off. So yea, for a lot of people out there.. better solutions, not better prisons.

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wow.
=)
<3

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Originally Posted by Brilliand

On the other hand, living in the womb is a known and expected need of the fetus, whereas donating blood is not a common need for born children.

And I wouldn't be so sure that you couldn't be forced to donate blood to save your daughter, if someone bothered to sue you about it (and had a good case that there was no other way).

Granted, it's rare to not be able to handle a situation with money alone. Even in the case of the fetus, you can often pay a hospital to take care of it.

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There is no way that someone could sue me for not giving blood to my daughter. Someone could call me a bad mother, but I do truly own my body parts.

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Originally Posted by Slacker Mom

No but if you latch onto them and live off their blood and organs, they can kill you to get you off them.

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So it's different then?
Different actions are allowed for different rights that are infringed upon.

If I infringe on someone's property rights they can't shoot me but if I suck their blood (ewww hahahaha) they can.

We're parasites 'till we're born.

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Originally Posted by hkkmr

I'm still kinda of a parasite.. :D

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lol that's what I was gunna say :p

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Originally Posted by hkkmr

So yea, for a lot of people out there.. better solutions, not better prisons.

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Ah ha ha... that reminds me, the prison system is ridiculous. :lol: I think it would be better to make the penalty something simple and dumb, like a fine and a "cease and desist" order (translation: shut down the hospital)... or tax hikes. ;) No need to make it a burden on the government.

Gah. This isn't about respect for life IMO.

These are the reasons I'm pro-choice (listed from highest importance to least importance):

1. Making it illegal is not going to stop it from happening imo. I imagine it will lead to having it continue in the black market sense, illegally and unregulated. As such, not only will you lose the embryo, but you might lose the mother as well. Narcotics are illegal... but... people still use them... Since when has making something illegal that people want to do anyway stopped anyone? In other words, I think making it illegal will make the problem worse not better, and so for being all "pro-life" you won't really save many (if any) lives. In fact I think there are better ways to reduce the abortion rate (why not try to figure out what will actually decrease the rate and then start implementing... why not try something that has a higher chance of success?).

2. There are certain instances where it may need to happen anyway. Maybe if carried to term, the baby will endanger the life of the mother. Maybe the baby is horribly disfigured. Maybe the baby was born with some terrible disease and it's not going to make it long anyway when born... etc. There's also the issue of rape... which is a-whole-nother mess. Pregnancy is a time-sensitive matter and courts can take a really long time to make decisions... the two are incompatible. Furthermore, this doesn't belong in the hands of the courts because they'll only fuck it up.

3. Let's say it is illegal. What happens to women who have an abortion and then are arrested for it? Do they go to prison? For having an abortion? What sort of law enforcement would we be talking about? Don't we have enough people in prison already? Do we really need to add women who had abortions to the prison population? Doesn't that seem outrageously backwards?

4. The government with its strong patriarchal and Judeo-Christian influence has no right to impose its will on the female body in this way. Absolutely none. Perhaps they should make laws about who I can and can't have sex with while we're at it. I don't like the idea of abortion. And I can't predict what I'd do in every scenario... even if I think I'd never have an abortion... but I do not want the government telling me what I can and cannot do with my body. It isn't their place and it isn't their business. And I don't trust them to make decisions in my best interest. And I don't want them making my choices for me.

I think this *is* a moral matter, but it is *not* and should not be a legal one. And that's why being pro-choice and anti-abortion are not mutually exclusive (though I wouldn't necessarily say I'm 100% anti-abortion)... Pro-choice and Pro-life are *legal* stances, not moral ones. It's not a question of whether you value life or not... it's about whether you want abortion illegal or not... I think that making abortion illegal won't save lives anyway and will make things worse... so why would I then want it illegal?

i don't take a side but i think pro-life organizations should put every single cent they have towards informing people of contraceptives.

It's so simple.
If you are pregnant you may have your baby.
You have the right to.

If you are not pregnant, then fuck off.
You don't have the right to decide how a woman uses her body.
In fact, it doesn't even directly affect you at all!

If a woman chooses not to have a baby, it does not directly affect you.
People are not born all the time.

Ladies: If you're not okay with that, then go get pregnant.
Gentlemen: Go knock up the nearest chick you can find. Because her egg deserves life too!

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Originally Posted by anamericancer

It's so simple.
If you are pregnant you may have your baby.
You have the right to.

If you are not pregnant, then fuck off.
You don't have the right to decide how a woman uses her body.
In fact, it doesn't even directly affect you at all!

If a woman chooses not to have a baby, it does not directly affect you.
People are not born all the time.

Ladies: If you're not okay with that, then go get pregnant.
Gentlemen: Go knock up the nearest chick you can find. Because her egg deserves life too!

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Well it wouldn't directly affect me if Sally killed Bob either but they still both have the right to live.

I identify more with pro choice, but it isn't the path I would choose for myself. I would rather sacrifice my own lifestyle than abort a child. But then again, I would never want to impose a belief that is so influential on a person's life based on my own opinion, nor would I want to oppress people. But there should be a cutoff point, IMO, somewhere near the end of the first trimester. So.....pro choice.

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Originally Posted by theMime.

Well it wouldn't directly affect me if Sally killed Bob either but they still both have the right to live.

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Okay, then go get pregnant.
Hurry up, wouldn't want to deny your egg the right to live!

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Originally Posted by anamericancer

Okay, then go get pregnant.
Hurry up, wouldn't want to deny your egg the right to live!

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i don't like eggs.

oye matter of opinion.

IMO egg = not a life. You were right you know...completely... about potential lives that is...it's not about potential lives...it's about when a life is a life. I don't care about potential lives I only care about lives.

lol@the ad for this page

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...goat/pic-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by theMime.

i don't like eggs.

oye matter of opinion.

IMO egg = not a life. You were right you know...completely... about potential lives that is...it's not about potential lives...it's about when a life is a life. I don't care about potential lives I only care about lives.

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Haha, you Pro Life people.
It's strange how when we say it isn't alive, you say "It's a life too..."
But when I say, okay what about your egg, you say "Not a life..."

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Originally Posted by Loki

Gah. This isn't about respect for life IMO.

These are the reasons I'm pro-choice (listed from highest importance to least importance):

1. Making it illegal is not going to stop it from happening imo. I imagine it will lead to having it continue in the black market sense, illegally and unregulated. As such, not only will you lose the embryo, but you might lose the mother as well. Narcotics are illegal... but... people still use them... Since when has making something illegal that people want to do anyway stopped anyone? In other words, I think making it illegal will make the problem worse not better, and so for being all "pro-life" you won't really save many (if any) lives. In fact I think there are better ways to reduce the abortion rate (why not try to figure out what will actually decrease the rate and then start implementing... why not try something that has a higher chance of success?).

2. There are certain instances where it may need to happen anyway. Maybe if carried to term, the baby will endanger the life of the mother. Maybe the baby is horribly disfigured. Maybe the baby was born with some terrible disease and it's not going to make it long anyway when born... etc. There's also the issue of rape... which is a-whole-nother mess. Pregnancy is a time-sensitive matter and courts can take a really long time to make decisions... the two are incompatible. Furthermore, this doesn't belong in the hands of the courts because they'll only fuck it up.

3. Let's say it is illegal. What happens to women who have an abortion and then are arrested for it? Do they go to prison? For having an abortion? What sort of law enforcement would we be talking about? Don't we have enough people in prison already? Do we really need to add women who had abortions to the prison population? Doesn't that seem outrageously backwards?

4. The government with its strong patriarchal and Judeo-Christian influence has no right to impose its will on the female body in this way. Absolutely none. Perhaps they should make laws about who I can and can't have sex with while we're at it. I don't like the idea of abortion. And I can't predict what I'd do in every scenario... even if I think I'd never have an abortion... but I do not want the government telling me what I can and cannot do with my body. It isn't their place and it isn't their business. And I don't trust them to make decisions in my best interest. And I don't want them making my choices for me.

I think this *is* a moral matter, but it is *not* and should not be a legal one. And that's why being pro-choice and anti-abortion are not mutually exclusive (though I wouldn't necessarily say I'm 100% anti-abortion)... Pro-choice and Pro-life are *legal* stances, not moral ones. It's not a question of whether you value life or not... it's about whether you want abortion illegal or not... I think that making abortion illegal won't save lives anyway and will make things worse... so why would I then want it illegal?

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1. YES! AGREED! (just like with how they outlawed alcohol in the '20s)
2. hmmmm. scary.
3. agreed.
4. Yes! Morality and law do not need to be the same thing.
5. True.

HOLY COW.
Ok I'm ProChoice. (still will never abort tho)

You said that wonderfully Loki.

It's a good thing people like you are around.
You helped give me more clarity...in my head this whole thing just gets jumbled up and confusing so easliy and the fact that this an emotional topic doesn't help. Thank you. =)

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Originally Posted by anamericancer

Haha, you Pro Life people.
It's strange how when we say it isn't alive, you say "It's a life too..."
But when I say, okay what about your egg, you say "Not a life..."

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cancer this is a confusing topic ok?

anyway. there's a cutoff point somewhere right? you have reasons for saying the cutoff point is birth and I have reasons for saying conception. If you wann go through ur reasons for why it's at birth I'll listen.

difference between egg and embryo. if it was an embryo and not an egg inside me i'd let it live.

I'M NOT CHANGING THE STANDARDS FOR MYSELF CANCER!
YOU MISUNDERSTOOD!

I've never ever claimed that an egg was a life. Living tissue: yes. An individual human being: No.

I have claimed that I belive that an embryo is a life.

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Originally Posted by theMime.

I'M NOT CHANGING THE STANDARDS FOR MYSELF CANCER!
YOU MISUNDERSTOOD!

I've never ever claimed that an egg was a life. Living tissue: yes. An individual human being: No.

I have claimed that I belive that an embryo is a life.

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The only difference between an embryo and an egg is time and sperm.

So why does the embryo deserve life if the egg doesn't?
Time?

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Originally Posted by anamericancer

The only difference between an embryo and an egg is time and sperm.

So why does the embryo deserve life if the egg doesn't?
Time?

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you forgot sperm... :?

This is a mockery mime, you know that. They have you begging for forgiveness.

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Haha, you Pro Life people.
It's strange how when we say it isn't alive, you say "It's a life too..."
But when I say, okay what about your egg, you say "Not a life..."

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A girls' egg is not a human? We're referring to human lives.

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So why does the embryo deserve life if the egg doesn't?

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because it's been fertilized. and wtf hkkmr, humans!=cows. That made no sense.

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Originally Posted by Bionicgoat

you forgot sperm... :?

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I said sperm.
Check, it's unedited.
:)

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Originally Posted by anamericancer

I said sperm.
Check, it's unedited.
:)

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that's what she said

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Originally Posted by theMime

It's a good thing people like you are around.
You helped give me more clarity...in my head this whole thing just gets jumbled up and confusing so easliy and the fact that this an emotional topic doesn't help. Thank you. =)

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Are you simply agreeing with everyone now? :confused: I'm being doubtful. The atmosphere of this topic was seeming a bit tense... and it's one of those unresolvable topics (and so posting on it is unwise)... and I know that my post made the atmosphere worse, which was why I was hesitant to post it... and now I'm not sure about having posted it... because I wasn't really aiming to have people magically agree... half of it was wanting to articulate my thoughts... and I posted that at an inopportune time... i.e. at the time where people were likely to begin de-tensifying (I made up a word :p) the atmosphere. But anyway, you're welcome. :o

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Originally Posted by Starfall

I knew a girl who had 6 abortions... I honestly couldn't imagine her raising kids.

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:? I thought people often regret having them after... seems very masochistic of her.

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Originally Posted by Kamangir

This is a mockery mime, you know that. They have you begging for forgiveness.



A girls' egg is not a human? We're referring to human lives.



because it's been fertilized. and wtf hkkmr, humans!=cows. That made no sense.

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Then what is a human life?
so if you're saying the difference between life and egg is time and sperm...
then how valuable is human life?


HAHA!
The only thing that makes me human is time and sperm.
That's amazing.
I am alive because of time and sperm.
Time and fucking sperm.
Time and sperm are the reason I am "alive" and not an egg.
Jesus Christ.

Time and sperm.

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Originally Posted by anamericancer

The only difference between an embryo and an egg is time and sperm.

So why does the embryo deserve life if the egg doesn't?
Time?

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it's got all the genetic code.

this is a philosophical debate isn't it?

What I am seeing here is that you can't argue with someone if you don't accept their base argument.

Pro-choice= Point of embryo becoming human=unknown, therefore it can be killed.
Pro-Life= You need to have morality.

We both disagree on these base arguments, so this thread will stay unresolved.

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Originally Posted by anamericancer

Then what is a human life?
so if you're saying the difference between life and egg is time and sperm...
then how valuable is human life?


HAHA!
The only thing that makes me human is time and sperm.
That's amazing.
I am alive because of time and sperm.
Time and fucking sperm.
Time and sperm are the reason I am "alive" and not an egg.
Jesus Christ.

Time and sperm.

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yes time and sperm. You got fertilized, and you are now alive. You are human, which deserves much respect. It's why crimes are higher for a murder of a human than a dog. We are sentient.

I don't know who introduced the idea of the weight of human life here. It was never was in question.

and hkkmr, we have free will, not the cows. Therefore human>cow 24/7.

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Originally Posted by hkkmr

Let us be happy that those people do not enforce their beliefs with violence or prison, because I really could use a hamburger right now.

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just don't get any sperm on it... cause then your hamburger would be a life!!! :o

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Originally Posted by Kamangir

yes time and sperm. You got fertilized, and you are now alive. You are human, which deserves much respect. It's why crimes are higher for a murder of a human than a dog. We are sentient.

I don't know who introduced the idea of the weight of human life here. It was never was in question.

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yes it is

humans are not "greater" than other animals or plants or anything else that's living... we just have bigger heads.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Are you simply agreeing with everyone now? :confused: I'm being doubtful. The atmosphere of this topic was seeming a bit tense... and it's one of those unresolvable topics (and so posting on it is unwise)... and I know that my post made the atmosphere worse, which was why I was hesitant to post it... and now I'm not sure about having posted it... because I wasn't really aiming to have people magically agree... half of it was wanting to articulate my thoughts... and I posted that at an inopportune time... i.e. at the time where people were likely to begin de-tensifying (I made up a word :p) the atmosphere. But anyway, you're welcome. :o

:? I thought people often regret having them after... seems very masochistic of her.

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Haha.
I was being honest.
For most of my teenage life I was adamantly ProLife.
Then I began looking at it from different angles. Then I began to be really confused but remained ProLife. I wanted more perspective. So I've been throwing out all my postions/opinions/ideas whatver and seeing what other people had to say to get perspective. I've been teetering on the fence.
I'm the type of person that as soon as I get clarity I can decide quickly. I've never been one to upset over the fact that I was wrong. I was wrong on some of my arguments, people pointed it out and I accepted it (except one argument wich I think Cancer is trying to sway me on but it's a matter of opinion I think)

The arguing over morality was just plain pointless (well ok it was a bit entertaining) I really could have done without it tho. This whole ProLife/Choice thing isn't about morality...it's about our laws because opinions on morality and law should be separate.

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Originally Posted by Bionicgoat

yes it is

humans are not "greater" than other animals or plants or anything else that's living... we just have bigger heads.

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bigger heads eh? Look more into that, ok man? It doesn't account for our ability to starve ourselves if we choose. It doesn't account for the apes who have a head roughly our size, and it doesn't account for why there are apes around if we are descended from them.

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Originally Posted by Bionicgoat

just don't get any sperm on it... cause then your hamburger would be a life!!! :o

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This is why I love Bionicgoat.
<3

Kam: Go to sleep.


But seriously, Kam.
You are alive because of sperm.
That is the only reason your worth anything.
According to you, that is.

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Originally Posted by Kamangir

bigger heads eh? Look more into that, ok man? It doesn't account for our ability to starve ourselves if we choose. It doesn't account for the apes who have a head roughly our size, and it doesn't account for why there are apes around if we are descended from them.

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it was a metaphor... asshole! :p

life is life IMO... humans are no better or worse than anything else around. Life lives, life dies... no bit whoop.

btw we aren't descended from apes, we share a common ancestor.

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Originally Posted by hkkmr

And I don't believe in free-will....

I believe we have will, but it is not free.

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You can choose to eat, kill someone. Animals lack that entirely. That is called free will bro. I don't know what planet you're from.

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This whole ProLife/Choice thing isn't about morality...it's about our laws because opinions on morality and law should be separate.

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Morality is all it's about. It has nothing to do with laws, it has to do with personal choice to accept responsibility for your child. If you lack that, you aren't a human, no matter how much sperm you have :p.

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But seriously, Kam.
You are alive because of sperm.
That is the only reason your worth anything.
According to you, that is.

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What is worth for you? I'd like to know. But no matter what you say, it still comes down to human life and whether you have respect for it. Life is no game, which leads into the cult of irresponsibility once more.

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Originally Posted by Kamangir

What is worth for you? I'd like to know.

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What is life worth...
Hmm...
My life was worthless to Pro Life when I was an egg.
But now it's valuable because of sperm.
Haha. I guess the secret to life is sperm.
Pssst: The Secret of Life is Sperm!
I am worth sperm, according to you.

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Originally Posted by Kamangir

But no matter what you say, it still comes down to human life and whether you have respect for it.

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I have lots of respect for human life.
That's why I'm Pro Choice.
I respect their life, freedom, and rights as human beings.

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Originally Posted by Kamangir

Life is no game, which leads into the cult of irresponsibility once more.

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Irresponsibility is releasing a child that you can't even care for into the world.
The "responsible" thing to do is to have the abortion.

The main distinguishing factor between us and our primate ancestors is mostly genetic selection for a larger brain, upight posture, and larger penises (a gorilla penis is about the size of your pinky) in males and a vagina facing the anterior in females which allows us to have sex facing each other (most other mammals have sex by mounting from the back). Does this make us inherently "better" than other animals? I don't believe so, but then I don't believe in absolute morality.

It does however give us several evolutionary advantages, the most conspicuous being the ability to create an extremely nuanced communication system (language) which allows us to think deep thoughts (without words, we wouldn't be able to comprehend but the most basic causal logic relationships).

I think we have a bias towards those animals that are most like us. A lot of us don't feel so bad when animals with smaller brains (a bird, say) dies, but we'll empathize more with the black market chimpanzees that get sold as pets or even for their fur. And we value our own species above others because in most cases, we aren't separated be a huge discrepancy in cognitive ability - even babies can communicate with us in ways we identify with and can easily understand. Most studies indicate that animals are indeed capable of suffering. And anyone who works with abused animals knows how far this extends. It's just that they do not have the evolutionary head start we do, and can't communicate or even logically interpret the extent of that suffering like we do. In one way this probably means they don't suffer the same nuanced psychological angst that we do. In other ways, it means they have no means of defense against any suffering we inflict upon them.

I personally believe abortion is wrong. I consider it barbaric and an abuse of our medical technology. I don't, however, think that criminalizing it is the correct route to solving the underlying social issues that lead to unwanted children (which are varied and highly personal from case to case). Weve criminalized homicide, but it hasn't stopped it from occuring.

One such HUGE social issue that hasn't been addressed is the stigma directed at women who become pregnant out of wedlock. We don't look at the men who fuck and run off with even half the reprehension that these women will get.

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Originally Posted by Baby

One such HUGE social issue that hasn't been addressed is the stigma directed at woman who become pregnant out of wedlock.

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Yes. I think that's a big part of it. Totally agree.

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Originally Posted by anamericancer

What is life worth...
Hmm...
My life was worthless to Pro Life when I was an egg.
But now it's valuable because of sperm.
Haha. I guess the secret to life is sperm.
Pssst: The Secret of Life is Sperm!
I am worth sperm, according to you.

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So you were an egg? Not the all-powerful sperm? You weren't anything, because egg+sperm is a human.

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I have lots of respect for human life.
That's why I'm Pro Choice.
I respect their life, freedom, and rights as human beings.

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I'm sorry you feel that way.

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Irresponsibility is releasing a child that you can't even care for into the world.
The "responsible" thing to do is to have the abortion.

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Irresponsibility is having sex, getting pregnant and then releasing a child that you couldn't even care for into the world. That is shame. The "responsible" thing to do is to give it up for adoption. Human life isn't a game if I must repeat myself. And you respect human life.

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One such HUGE social issue that hasn't been addressed is the stigma directed at women who become pregnant out of wedlock. We don't look at the men who fuck and run off with even half the reprehension that these women will get.

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I personally look down on both equally. I'm not sexist.

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Originally Posted by hkkmr

I would note that there are some circumstances that if I was a leader I would issue a moratorium on abortion, say after a nuclear holocaust and we had to replenish the population.

And in some cases say a person having multiple abortions in a short span of time(say 5 over 10 years), I would issue a mandatory birth control(reversible) injection until the mother is willing to bear to term(If I'm not wrong I believe some judge has issued this ruling before.)

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I can't see how you can be 'prochoice' and yet say that you would make rulings like these if you were a leader. How is commanding women to 'replenish the population' a democracy at all? I would be furious if there were such a ruling. If you believe that abortion is not wrong, who are you to decide when it should or should not be done? You should either believe that abortion is completely wrong or that it's not wrong and therefore up to the individual IMO. What you're suggesting sounds like a dictatorship to me.

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Originally Posted by Kamangir

I personally look down on both equally. I'm not sexist.

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Then you are still part of the problem, and are only perpetuating the same social climate that has served to make the practice of abortion such a given.