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... to get an idea of what people are REALLY thinking ...
without ever having to deal with this situation in reality I don't think I can give an honest opinion. I can see the arguements for both sides, but there's no feeling attached to them.
Choice Choice Choice.
yeah - I hate the term too :D ... but anyway ...Quote:
Originally Posted by glamourama
that's not very nice :(Quote:
Originally Posted by anamericancer
I don't get it. I think pro-choice is the worst of the two,it's more ambiguous than pro-life.
their stance is ambiguous though ... so it fits IMOQuote:
Originally Posted by Kamangir
Pro-life is very concise and to the point, while pro-choice is the story of cut-off points and lines between cell and baby that haven't been proved in any sense.
So yes.
No, that's just one argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamangir
There's several, if you haven't noticed.
All others can be explained in due time, trust me.
Pro-life isn't very specific either. Like, lots of people I know who are pro-life are in favor of the death penalty. Or in favor of wars in which we (the US) is the aggressor. Which I don't see as hypocritical (and therefore I'm not trying to make a point about that), but the name "pro-life" doesn't really fit those people, IMO. Anti-abortion is probably more accurate but it obviously sounds negative and I understand why that is undesirable.
Pro-choice is correct - many pro-choice people would never have an abortion themselves but believe the choice should be available for instance - but isn't specific enough because it doesn't state what choice people are talking about. Pro-abortion doesn't fit people who wouldn't have one themselves but want the choice to be available, so that wouldn't be accurate. Pro-abortion-rights is probably the most accurate there. But I think many pro-choice people would rather avoid the word "abortion" in the descriptor.
So they're both more spin than descriptive.
Sure - but he's stated what's important to him: the clarity. The clearest cutoff points between baby and reproductive organ are:Quote:
Originally Posted by anamericancer
- Conception
- Birth
excellent expound man, exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brilliand
1. Conception
One of the effects of the pill is to stop change the lining of the uterus in a way that prevents a fertilized egg from implanting into the wall of the uterus, so it 'dies'
Menstruation? Is that even avoidable?Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
yes. you stop sinning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brilliand
I am pro-choice and when I faced the choice, I went with adoption. It had everything to do with my circumstances, and nothing to do with politics. But as for politics, I think everyone should have the choice.
I have an amazing situation where I got to choose the couple who adopted my baby, and we all keep in touch. I visit them; just saw them in February in fact, and sometime this summer they will come down and visit me and my parents, who are excited to see her (we all get pictures emailed, so my parents really feel a connection).
As happy as I am about the way my situation turned out, there are an infinite number of alternate circumstances. I value the fact that I actually had a choice; I know I at least wouldn't have felt the same during the pregnancy if I had been forced to have the baby - but instead, I actually enjoyed the experience of bearing a child!
Laws are for criminals. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by iAnnAu
I'm Pro-choice, but I believe the choice should never be easy. I also think that if a person really makes the no-choice very easily, I don't even want them having kids.
pro choice.
there's always situations where certain choices have to made.
people usually say "i will never do this" or "i condemn this act & will never make xxx choice" because it has never happened to them.
Yes. Try walking in my shoes, as they say, among so many other phrases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mea
Absolutely. I've known a couple of people who were very anti-abortion, but then they were faced with terrible situations, and I really think any reasonable person would at least understand why they chose to abort. One is a pretty strict Catholic. But she could very well have died if she hadn't aborted, the fetus wouldn't have lived with the abnormalities it had anyway, and she had other children at home who needed her. Also, being Catholic, she wanted a large family, and this pregnancy, if it didn't kill her, would almost certainly have at least made her infertile. The other friend was raped. Her husband had a vasectomy so she wasn't using birth control, and got pregnant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mea
And to me anyway, those situations seem very clear cut, but even in less obvious circumstances I don't feel like I'm in a position to judge when a woman should be able to abort and when she shouldn't. The people in the position to figure that out what the right choice is in any giving situation are the woman and her doctor. There are a million bad situations that make women consider abortion. The fact that I've never had a bad situation that made me consider it doesn't mean I can't empathize with women in that position.
pro choice is for retards
Well thank God they won't pass on their retarded genes.Quote:
Originally Posted by machintruc
Is there a limit to the amount of kids one can adopt?Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
Like, what's the most amount of children one can have?
I'll definitely adopt my own army of kids as soon as I turn eighteen.
Then it's war.
Damn.Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
You better hope they have unvalued Fi.Quote:
Originally Posted by anamericancer
Go away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamangir
They don't want to "abort the mission" though, so that fits too :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
Just give the kid to a gay couple. Don't kill a potential life, it's wrong I don't care what anybody says. =( I used to be pro-choice but now I'm on the life side of things. I was only really saying that because I didn't want to be rejected by my usually liberal friends, but I figure- if they can't respect my opinions they're not my friends in the first place.
If you don't want to go through with the BS of adoption agencies (I don't know exactly but I can only imagine the BS they put you through), you could always just leave it anonymously with a church they'll be glad to take care of it since you know, churches love babies and everything social and normal and hate things that are destructive and actually entertaining. Get a holistic birthgiver or whatever, and do a good deed that way. I don't know. There isn't just two choices, to me that's pretty limited thinking.
They might get some religious bullshit growing up, but that can be conditioned out of that like anything else- and it's better than just not experiencing life altogether anyway. *shrug*
Think of the couples that want kids but can't have them naturally for whatever reason, but would make great parents. You can still help the human race- but killing it off does nothing in my mind. It's a myth that the world is overpopulated I think. We just need to build bigger cities and enlighten people more to move out of Hickeryville, population: 5.
People starving to death has never been caused by overpopulation. Other factors such as poor geography and their natural resources being extracted at a cheap price. Still not a reason to promote abortion in any case.Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
I don't like abortion but I don't want it illegal... I want it legal and regulated.
wanting abortion to be legal does not equal "promoting abortion".Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamangir
^'xactly.
By condoning it, you are indirectly promoting its merits, which are little if any. Many pro-choice people have told me "ohhh, I don't like abortion, but it should be legal because people have the right to make their own decisions." I ask you, if you think poorly of abortion, how can you even think of justifying it like that? For me, it is like this:Quote:
wanting abortion to be legal does not equal "promoting abortion".
1. I disagree with abortion.
2. I think such a procedure should not take place.
Therefore, because I believe abortion should not take place, I will condemn its' use, except in extenuating circumstances.
If you disagree with abortion and yet feel that people ought to have that choice, it just does not follow. It just proves you're too weak to have any opinions that carry merit.
Just because one thinks poorly of something, doesn't mean they should ignore the fact that other people have opinions too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamangir
One should respect that their opinion is just theirs and does not/should not represent everyone else.
Thanks. btw your aim exploit was amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by anamericancer
My what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamangir
Just now. AIM invisibilty rocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by anamericancer
How do you know I'm invisible?
I wasn't on.
I just had a gut feeling ms. cancer. Just a feeling you were invisible. So I followed suit. Another thing to add to your list.
And then alliecliche came back and she was on for 11 minutes, but she just came on?
speaking of choices.
if there was to be a vote to take place for abortions to be either banned or not banned and everybody chose to have them banned and voted for that option, then there would have been a choice and that would have been it.
We have the freedom to choose and if I had to choose between those two options I'd choose to ban it and that would be my choice. But if everyone voted for them to not be banned then so be it. It would suck IMO and would be sad IMO but we have to go with what the majority wants cuz if we didn't there would be dictatorship, right?
...but actually it's the supreme court that has choices when it comes to this...not us.
Are you okay?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamangir
The merit is that a woman has control over her body. That she doesn't have to have a baby if she doesn't want one. That's the only merit it needs to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamangir
I don't really understand this paragraph. Is this in regard to me? I don't disagree with abortion. I think it is a necessary procedure and needs to be available to women so women can have control over their own lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamangir
"I'm not OK......." No I'm not very happy today.Quote:
Originally Posted by anamericancer
What do you think.
The supreme court decides on these things because we can't vote to take away people's rights or limit people's freedoms. Our constitution guarantees us certain things even if most people don't want them.Quote:
Originally Posted by theMime.
yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
there seems to be confusion over the right to life and the right to freedom tho.
You can't give everyone the right to life.Quote:
Originally Posted by theMime.
It's fucking impossible.
However, you can and should give everyone the right to freedom.
Fetuses don't have constitutional rights.Quote:
Originally Posted by theMime.
That breeds irresponsibility. Barring rape and other very extreme circumstances, a woman chose to have that baby at one time or another. Therefore, to give a woman that choice:Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
1. lowers the importance of life (depends on how much you value life though)
2. Breeds irresponsibility. Whether she is using abortion as a contraceptive or just had a "bad night", making abortion legal for these situations leads to point 1 and also promotes abortion as an "easy way out", thereby making abortion more prevalent and used in ways that some of you might not agree with.
Actually, it would grant an embryo more rights than a born human being. No born human being would ever be granted the right to live off my blood supply and be connected to my body against my wishes for nine months.Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
neither did adults until we made it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
Again, no. A choice is defined as something made by the chooser. If she decides to have sex and that's it, then that's the choice she made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamangir
hmmm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
but say for some strange reason there was a human being connected to you and living off of you for nine months...that would go against your rights but would that give anybody the right to kill that person? And isn't the right to live more important than the other rights?
That is purely disrespectful to life. Thank you very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
If you believe that, then it stands to reason that you also believe that all healthy people should give up one kidney each by law to give to people waiting for kidneys, that all people who die in the right circumstances should be forced to give their organs to people who will die without them, that everyone should be forced to have their bone marrow tested and be available by law anyone compatible needs a bone marrow donation, etc. Their rights to live outweigh our rights to have two kidneys, or control our organs, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by theMime.
If one person's survival was meant my suffering, then yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by theMime.
I would. I would let them die.
But that's also different because a fetus is never alive in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
As a way of enforcing the ban of abortion if that ban existed?
There would be other ways to do that.
what?Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
I'm confused.
so if Bob infringes on Sally's rights then Sally has the right to infringe on Bob's rights?
AH! There's a difference between letting someone die and killing them.Quote:
Originally Posted by anamericancer
For instance, I could have given a hobo a hamburger today and I didn't...if that hobo dies of starvation [aww poor hobo =(] did I kill him? No I didn't kill him. He died of natural causes.
I think this would apply equally to your income. Your children have a legal right to live off your income. Failing to feed your children is illegal. There is precedent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
On the other hand, we are not responsible for complete strangers - only for those we brought into the world in the first place.
people need to smoke more pot around here :?
well if that was the standard and they were full aware of it and they did it anyway...then that's on them. sadly.Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
No, income is different. I couldn't be legally forced to give up a kidney even to my own daughter. I couldn't even be legally forced to donate blood to save her. My physical body parts belong to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brilliand
Embryo transplant research.
yes.
it's a good idea.
really it is.
Yeah, that's true.Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
Let me clarify:
I am not willing to give up my rights for something that "lives" off of me like a parasite.
Pro Life:
It's replaceable.
Stop pretending you care.
what do you say about Bob?Quote:
Originally Posted by anamericancer
If you infringe on Bob's rights then does he have the right to infringe on your rights?
I respect Bob's rights. That is why I don't care if he gets an abortion.Quote:
Originally Posted by theMime.
why do you keep talking about me?!?! :?Quote:
Originally Posted by theMime.
leave my rights alone!
Ur name is Bob?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
sorta, it's Robert (but I felt like complaining :) )Quote:
Originally Posted by theMime.
and about what you said before...Quote:
Originally Posted by anamericancer
letting someone die is different than killing them.
If Bob is infringing on Sally's rights, Sally has a right to make that stop, regardless of what happens to Bob as a result.
Sorry Robert.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
Here, have your rights *hands Robert a copy of the Constitution*
Of course it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by theMime.
REALLY?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
:eek:
ZOMG! If I accidentally step on a neighbor's lawn they can shoot me!
*scared face*
=(
No but if you latch onto them and live off their blood and organs, they can kill you to get you off them.Quote:
Originally Posted by theMime.
On the other hand, living in the womb is a known and expected need of the fetus, whereas donating blood is not a common need for born children.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
And I wouldn't be so sure that you couldn't be forced to donate blood to save your daughter, if someone bothered to sue you about it (and had a good case that there was no other way).
Granted, it's rare to not be able to handle a situation with money alone. Even in the case of the fetus, you can often pay a hospital to take care of it.
wow.Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
=)
<3
There is no way that someone could sue me for not giving blood to my daughter. Someone could call me a bad mother, but I do truly own my body parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brilliand
So it's different then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
Different actions are allowed for different rights that are infringed upon.
If I infringe on someone's property rights they can't shoot me but if I suck their blood (ewww hahahaha) they can.
We're parasites 'till we're born.
lol that's what I was gunna say :pQuote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
Ah ha ha... that reminds me, the prison system is ridiculous. :lol: I think it would be better to make the penalty something simple and dumb, like a fine and a "cease and desist" order (translation: shut down the hospital)... or tax hikes. ;) No need to make it a burden on the government.Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
Gah. This isn't about respect for life IMO.
These are the reasons I'm pro-choice (listed from highest importance to least importance):
1. Making it illegal is not going to stop it from happening imo. I imagine it will lead to having it continue in the black market sense, illegally and unregulated. As such, not only will you lose the embryo, but you might lose the mother as well. Narcotics are illegal... but... people still use them... Since when has making something illegal that people want to do anyway stopped anyone? In other words, I think making it illegal will make the problem worse not better, and so for being all "pro-life" you won't really save many (if any) lives. In fact I think there are better ways to reduce the abortion rate (why not try to figure out what will actually decrease the rate and then start implementing... why not try something that has a higher chance of success?).
2. There are certain instances where it may need to happen anyway. Maybe if carried to term, the baby will endanger the life of the mother. Maybe the baby is horribly disfigured. Maybe the baby was born with some terrible disease and it's not going to make it long anyway when born... etc. There's also the issue of rape... which is a-whole-nother mess. Pregnancy is a time-sensitive matter and courts can take a really long time to make decisions... the two are incompatible. Furthermore, this doesn't belong in the hands of the courts because they'll only fuck it up.
3. Let's say it is illegal. What happens to women who have an abortion and then are arrested for it? Do they go to prison? For having an abortion? What sort of law enforcement would we be talking about? Don't we have enough people in prison already? Do we really need to add women who had abortions to the prison population? Doesn't that seem outrageously backwards?
4. The government with its strong patriarchal and Judeo-Christian influence has no right to impose its will on the female body in this way. Absolutely none. Perhaps they should make laws about who I can and can't have sex with while we're at it. I don't like the idea of abortion. And I can't predict what I'd do in every scenario... even if I think I'd never have an abortion... but I do not want the government telling me what I can and cannot do with my body. It isn't their place and it isn't their business. And I don't trust them to make decisions in my best interest. And I don't want them making my choices for me.
I think this *is* a moral matter, but it is *not* and should not be a legal one. And that's why being pro-choice and anti-abortion are not mutually exclusive (though I wouldn't necessarily say I'm 100% anti-abortion)... Pro-choice and Pro-life are *legal* stances, not moral ones. It's not a question of whether you value life or not... it's about whether you want abortion illegal or not... I think that making abortion illegal won't save lives anyway and will make things worse... so why would I then want it illegal?
i don't take a side but i think pro-life organizations should put every single cent they have towards informing people of contraceptives.
It's so simple.
If you are pregnant you may have your baby.
You have the right to.
If you are not pregnant, then fuck off.
You don't have the right to decide how a woman uses her body.
In fact, it doesn't even directly affect you at all!
If a woman chooses not to have a baby, it does not directly affect you.
People are not born all the time.
Ladies: If you're not okay with that, then go get pregnant.
Gentlemen: Go knock up the nearest chick you can find. Because her egg deserves life too!
Well it wouldn't directly affect me if Sally killed Bob either but they still both have the right to live.Quote:
Originally Posted by anamericancer
I identify more with pro choice, but it isn't the path I would choose for myself. I would rather sacrifice my own lifestyle than abort a child. But then again, I would never want to impose a belief that is so influential on a person's life based on my own opinion, nor would I want to oppress people. But there should be a cutoff point, IMO, somewhere near the end of the first trimester. So.....pro choice.
Okay, then go get pregnant.Quote:
Originally Posted by theMime.
Hurry up, wouldn't want to deny your egg the right to live!
i don't like eggs.Quote:
Originally Posted by anamericancer
oye matter of opinion.
IMO egg = not a life. You were right you know...completely... about potential lives that is...it's not about potential lives...it's about when a life is a life. I don't care about potential lives I only care about lives.
lol@the ad for this page
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...goat/pic-1.jpg
Haha, you Pro Life people.Quote:
Originally Posted by theMime.
It's strange how when we say it isn't alive, you say "It's a life too..."
But when I say, okay what about your egg, you say "Not a life..."
1. YES! AGREED! (just like with how they outlawed alcohol in the '20s)Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
2. hmmmm. scary.
3. agreed.
4. Yes! Morality and law do not need to be the same thing.
5. True.
HOLY COW.
Ok I'm ProChoice. (still will never abort tho)
You said that wonderfully Loki.
It's a good thing people like you are around.
You helped give me more clarity...in my head this whole thing just gets jumbled up and confusing so easliy and the fact that this an emotional topic doesn't help. Thank you. =)
cancer this is a confusing topic ok?Quote:
Originally Posted by anamericancer
anyway. there's a cutoff point somewhere right? you have reasons for saying the cutoff point is birth and I have reasons for saying conception. If you wann go through ur reasons for why it's at birth I'll listen.
difference between egg and embryo. if it was an embryo and not an egg inside me i'd let it live.
I'M NOT CHANGING THE STANDARDS FOR MYSELF CANCER!
YOU MISUNDERSTOOD!
I've never ever claimed that an egg was a life. Living tissue: yes. An individual human being: No.
I have claimed that I belive that an embryo is a life.
The only difference between an embryo and an egg is time and sperm.Quote:
Originally Posted by theMime.
So why does the embryo deserve life if the egg doesn't?
Time?
you forgot sperm... :?Quote:
Originally Posted by anamericancer
This is a mockery mime, you know that. They have you begging for forgiveness.
A girls' egg is not a human? We're referring to human lives.Quote:
Haha, you Pro Life people.
It's strange how when we say it isn't alive, you say "It's a life too..."
But when I say, okay what about your egg, you say "Not a life..."
because it's been fertilized. and wtf hkkmr, humans!=cows. That made no sense.Quote:
So why does the embryo deserve life if the egg doesn't?