Re: INTJ / ESFJ Conflicts
Quote:
Originally Posted by XcaliburGirl
I find it interesting that INTJs and ESFJs supposedly have a dual relation.
I'm an INTJ and the eldest of 5 daughters. One of my sisters is an ESFJ. We have a very chummy relationship most of the time (aside from my occasional annoyance at her bubbliness, and her sensitivity to my critism). And yet I fight with her more than with any of the others.
The most interesting part of this is that all our conflicts have the exact same structure, which we have noticed and analyzed even before discovering our types. Originally, neither of us knew why the other, or even her self, reacted the way she did. Now that we are recognizing the problems (usually me, :wink: ), we are getting better at stopping the conflict before things escalate, but it still happens.
I offer this post simply for the intellectual benefit of whomever is interested. Though, if anyone thinks, by my discriptions, that I've got our types wrong, let me know.
*****
It starts with a simple disagreement, usually about how something should be done.
We both try to explain to the other why we think or feel our position is better, usually I start to overpower her with my reasoning(whether actually right or not).
If she doesn't understand or still doesn't agree, she will usually try to end the discussion by saying that she no longer cares who is right. This is unacceptable to me. I am convinced that if I can explain my position in terms that she can understand, she will agree with me. Therefore, I continue to reason with her. At this point, if not before, I unconciously raise my voice in volume and pitch in (what I perceive as) my zealous defense of logic.
She, sensitive soul that she is, interprets my manner as anger (she doesn't mind discussion but hates conflict) and, believing that "a soft answer turns away wrath", collects herself and asks me calmly, "Why are you yelling?"
This drives me to a rage as absolutly nothing else can. In my mind, I was not angry, not even annoyed; simply excited. I sincerely want to help her understand, or even to agree with her if she can convince me that her way makes the most sense. Her inauthentic calmness and (what I interpret as) her accusation that I am being unreasonable incites my normally even temper to an indignant fury. (I use these strong words relatively. I almost never get angry, so this incediary reaction feels very strong.)
She now has the upperhand because I can't argue that I'm not yelling, since I now am. She then tries to stop the conflict again by stating that the conversation is over. But I refuse to let her off that easily, feeling like she has forced me in the "bad guy" position when I really had no malignant intentions.
At this point, my ISTP sister usually intervenes. As to the original argument, she usually agrees with my logic (HA! :wink: ). But then she reminds me that our ESFJ sister is sensitive to my voice and expression, and that my enthusiasm can indeed come across as anger or annoyance at incomprehension.
Things cool down, we compromise if possible, and neither of us holds the incident against the other. We go back to peaceful coexistence until the exact same situation occurs again.
OK, around here I may get railed for this, but are you MBTI INTJ or Socionics INTJ? The relationships are incredibly different depending on which you are. If she is MBTI ESFJ, then she is socionics ESFJ. If you are MBTI INTJ, then you are Socionics INTP. I don't think I've seen your posts before so I wanted to clear up that confusion if it exists.
Now, if you are MBTI INTJ, and therefore Socionics INTP, the information relations would be of Conflict....if you are MBTI INTP and Socionics INTJ, they would be of Duality. Both have conflicts, but they're natures are completely different. Being Socionics INTJ I have had close relations with both ESFP and ESFJ so I may be able to provide some insight.
The person I have argued most with in my entire life is close family, and I love her, and she is ESFP, conflict relations. After a few years and maturity(mostly on my end), we learned that our arguments went nowhere. When I get in an argument with the ESFP, I use introverted logic manipulation, of couse, using extraverted intuition to find facts to back my arguments. She uses extraverted sensing to decide she wants to win the argument and finds facts to throw in my face, and uses introverted feeling creatively to emotional manipulate me. Both of us don't see the other side correctly, so I see her emotional manipulation as pure emotional manipulation to win the argument. I'm guessing she sees me as cold, uncaring, and unemotional. My logic doesn't work on her, although it changes her arguments. When she starts to cry, I see it as a last attempt to win the argument. Every argument we try to complete ends in me getting stuck in my (valid) logic and she ends up crying not understanding why I won't bend(because it violates my logic, I won't give up the truth to pacify). After I learned about Socionics, I first of all learned to avoid arguments and try to fein letting her win, trying to let her hear what she wants.
Now the arguments I have with another close relationship(ESFJ) were never arguments, it was mostly her whining and me still being stuck in the correctness of my logic. Most of the time, either introverted logic would give out for her extraverted feeling, or vice versa. Sometimes we still wouldn't agree, but our voices would never ever raise and we would not hold it against each other. It would come up again, one of us would raise the point and it may be resolved at that point or a disagreement would occur for about 2 minutes of us explaining our point to each other and then naturally putting it off till later. I once told this girlfriend of mine "it doesn't feel like we have a real relationship, we never fight", way before I became interested in Socionics. I suppose a Socionics INTP may see the ESFJ how I see the ESFP...purely emotional manipulative, in another way. ESFJ's base their argument in extraverted feeling, then using introverted sensing to change their mood to however they want which usualy amounts to whining about something, something I don't mind, in fact I'm slightly drawn to, but I'm sure would drive a Socionics INTP crazy.
Another possibility is that you are Socionics INTJ and she is not Socionics ESFJ. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion she is Socionics ESFP, she could be something else, but your description reminds me very much of my experience with pure conflict relations.
Another possibility is that my experiences between myself(Socionics INTJ) and Socionics ESFJ(about three so far) have been of a different nature due to personality. I doubt this one tho, not to exclude the possibility.
It seems like you like each other, but end up in arguments that you both can't seem to win peacefully. This reminds me very much of Conflict relations.
Take my writings as you will, they are trying to fit your relations with your sister into the Socionics relationship framework as I've come to learn it, and could be explained by other factors(other type's influence) or Socionics being completely made up. However I personally doubt it.
Once different I've noticed between ESFJs and ESFPs I've known(about 6 in total) is that when an ESFP comes home, they like to keep talking about how they 'got the best' of their boss, other people, etc, how they won arguments. When ESFJs come home, they tend to complain how hard they've worked(usually true) against impossible demands (to get sympathy). I tend to like listening to ESFJs come home from work, but ESFPs coming home from work I tend to zone out because I really don't care. A Socionics INTP may feel the opposite about these...they may find the ESFJ's complaining self-centered and useless, and find the ESFP's arguments that day compeling. It is the nature of the dual seeking function.
I would really appriciate comments from anyone....
Hope that helps.
