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There is a relatively new sit-com called The Big Bang Theory.
I'm too lazy to explain anything about it. Therefore, if you haven't heard of it, look it up on the internet.
Anyways, for those who are familiar with the show, what do you think the types of all the characters are?
hmmm
Sheldon - ILI
Leonard - LII
Penny - ESE
???
I always wish that I had Penny's apartment....and I was the queen of the nerds :]Quote:
Originally Posted by MOP
Sheldon is amazing.
I think there is a thread for this somewheres though...
Sheldon - ILE exaggerated a bit
Leonard - LII
Penny - ESE
It's not a full quadrable because they probably won't give Sheldon a relationship, if they do it will be like his mom.
Fi-role function fits a lot more then Fe-ego.Quote:
Originally Posted by Huginn
If you've ever met a real ESE, they're not the tame mousy Leonard type. These are ostentatious, loud, explosive and impressive type, that shout and command without restraint.
Someone like Rachel Ray is more akin to a ESE then Leonard could hope to be.
Wrong, ESE are not like this. Fe doesn't mean you're loud.Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
A type with Fe 1st function and Se 8th function is not going to be quiet either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maritsa33
Wrong again. Fe doesn't mean voice;Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
Sensor... Feeler... Extravert... Situational, maybe, but not a bad correlation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maritsa33
Please don't accuse us of having one-word definitions for the elements; we've been over this so many times that it's tiresome.
ESE can scream (oh an S correct my spelling already) and shout at their worst and so can any other type, SEE are more likely to be loud and about in public.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brilliand
ESE is a type called the Bonvivant....Quote:
Originally Posted by Maritsa33
This does not invoke the image of Leonard from Big Bang Theory.
Were a writer to write a ESE for a comedy show, it would be Penny, not Leonard!
Answer my questions as it relates to ILE in that thread please thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
Sorry.... NO! Discussion = Over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maritsa33
Why? Do you know that ILE don't get intimidated; the more intimidated the more resiliant they become, they are real fighters, it doesn't seem to be your interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
What was the last thing you did hands on like painted or draw or something hands on?
ESTj and maybe still ISTp because they don't like confrontation. You are pretending to be someone that you are not is unhealthy for you.
Last year you wrote this stuff about you...so who or what are you? I am done with you, VI and we'll find out your true colors.
I just told you that they are not ambitious and you told me in the ILE thread that you were not ambitious and then you were? CONTRADICTIONS.
I think ILE are one of the most ambitious of all types, but our ambitions are that of aliens. We want and dream bigger. Not neccessarily power or money but grander unknown ones. Yet power and money are the chains of the world and these are obstacles not to be ignored.
ILE want to do something unique and astonishing, but often there is no clear path or road because none have dared tread. Consequently, the old paths are hard for ILE's to go down and we are afraid of simple things others achieve so easily.
ILE's are the seekers, this should tell you something.
I would like to value all my functions equally.
08/03/09
As far as ILE's and their ambition, ILE are often high achievement types because of their personal charm, intellect and ability to evaluate potential. It's just that power and wealth are typically secondary concerns.
08/03/09
But you are making direct attacks on me. Stop using verbalization with "You/Your" etc and accusing me of twisting words. Because these are all going to make me think you are attacking me.
08/03/09
If you think I do not work hard for my goals, you're wrong, the difference may be I appear to be not working hard for anyone else. It's just there's no blueprint for success that is out there for me to follow. I'm not twisting any words, you just don't understand. My ambitions are alien to others, because they concern the unknown, which I do not even know.
Anyways, I have already made many achievements due to my work for others, but what does those mean? Nothing!
Am I fighting you... or am I not fighting you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Maritsa33
I won't answer your meaningless questions because you've already reached a conclusion about me which you've latched onto. And I thought I was SLI?
Think of it this way... what I've done is no more then to push you away with my words.
Here... I'll toss a proverbial glass of cold water on your head.
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:J...cold-water.jpg
FAKERQuote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
You can't change, mask, hide your character, you can temporarily but it will all be a LIE
So you think hhkmr is a LIE now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Maritsa33
Why not? Rachel Ray is a good example of a ESE-Fe.Quote:
Originally Posted by VixenDogFox
Look at what some others think of a ESE.
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...ale_and_female
Or here...Quote:
Originally Posted by ESE Woman
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...e=ESE_subtypes
I've met quieter ESE-Si's but they're only meek and quiet relative to their Fe counterparts.. and in their actions display physical vigor and energy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fe subtype
Leonard is kinda of weak... :D
Leonard could be SEI... Penny could be ILE... she seems irrational. Remember when Sheldon freaked out and cleaned her room?
Leonard usually acts as a voice of common sense and softens Sheldon's harsh logic... he's also very nice and has a hard time sticking up for himself.
Penny might have a blind spot for Fi because she never notices Leonard's advances (at least in the episodes I've seen)
edit: Also, Penny and Sheldon seem to conflict more often than not, she never reacts positively to him and his bizarre logic. I think their conflicts are more characteristic of Ep-Ij than they are of Ej-Ip
Penny isn't irrational, she's emotional and acts on emotion. And rational vs irrational has not much to do with cleanliness or neatness. LSE's are often quite filthy while IEI and ILE are sometimes neurotically clean.Quote:
Originally Posted by electric sheep
And what is important about why Penny and Sheldon have a relationship, and they do have a relationship is that they actually care about each other outside all the differences they have in world view.
Penny takes care of Sheldon when he's sick and Sheldon helps her out when she needs financial care. Penny takes the role of caregiver with Sheldon, a role only Sheldon's mom takes otherwise. Also Penny is the only character on the whole show that Sheldon has hugged or initiated any physical contact. Their conflicts are unimportant as far as they do not create psychological distance or disconnect, rather they've become psychologically close and dependent on each other.
As far as Leonard being SEI, he has weak Se.
SEI are quietly assertive people, they have strong Se even if it's the ignoring function.
Sheldon is a easy typing. He has extremely weak Si and Fi.
There are only two types like this and that's LIE and ILE, but although he applies strict logic to everything, he is somewhat crazy because his intuition drives the variables of his logic. This characterize why ILE use pure reason but can often make startling and insightful conclusions because their base intuition drives their logic.
Well I guess it depends on which traits you focus on. I think Sheldon has a big stick up his ass, so ultimately I think he is Ij. He has weak Si, but he has to have everything a certain way, he's very proper, and he's very awkward in that he's too stiff and can't relax. Do you think an ILE would freak out if someone else's room was dirty? I agree that he has weak Fi and Si, but he has a very obsessive way of dealing with them and it's one of the funnier things about him. Fi role and Si HA make more sense.
Leonard, while he's a bit of a wimp, that's not uncommon for SEIs. That still doesn't take away from my point earlier:Also, he's very diplomatic and helps Sheldon out socially. Sheldon would make a gaffe and Leonard smooths things over. Even if Sheldon is ILE, wouldn't it make more sense for an SEI to serve in that capacity? He acts as a mediator.Quote:
Leonard usually acts as a voice of common sense and softens Sheldon's harsh logic... he's also very nice and has a hard time sticking up for himself.
It's not uncommon for SEIs to not stick up for themselves, and it's not because they have weak Se. Other things get in the way.
Penny... yea she's probably ESE.
I think some of Sheldon's wierder attributes might have been modeled after Nicolai Tesla amongst various others. And Nicola Tesla was celibate, a hypochondriac, lived in a hotel room which he cleaned personally rather then let a cleaning service enter.Quote:
Originally Posted by electric sheep
As far as Sheldon's specific behaviors, some of the behavior and writing is made so that he and Penny will enter into conflict and actually communicate, because often in real life, two people such as these would likely not talk to each other because of preconceived liked and dislikes.
Leonard is the straight man to Sheldon's weirdness and Penny is sort of the girl that grounds these two guys into understandable reality. She contrasts them and is sort of the girl next door for these two decidedly strange fellows.
Sheldon's extravagance and he is extravagant and behavior are far more outward then inward. He's also far less meek and wimpy personality wise then Leonard despite his frail constitution.
Alright, people, the group consensus is:
Penny: ESE
Sheldon: ???
Leonard: ???
Raj: ???
Howard: ???
We need more input!
I wonder if Amy Farrah Fowler is my Dual :) :love:
My impressions of the characters:
Penny. I am drawn to her/see her as the interesting, hot one. I like that she's shown as capable in ways and confident in ways in which the boys are not. I want Sheldon, with whose weirdness and difficulty relating to some people I identify, to be with her in some 'intuitive introvert gets practical extrovert to the surprise of all' scenario.
Leonard. This character annoys me like no other. He's like Uriah Heep + a sex offender I used to know. He doesn't seem to know himself or have confidence. He seems to lack a cause-and-effect/global/objectively noble view. He whines. I only sometimes sympathize with him...when Sheldon's behaviors are incredibly selfish and evil.
Raj seems like an INTj or other alpha to me. Pleasant moments of interaction but different code of behavior ethics and not much to interest me. He'd be my 'theories friend'.
Wolowitz. He's one of those people I would see as socially off-putting to people, but with whom I might make some effort because I might have the chance to get a mind buddy out of him eventually.
Sheldon. An ex boyfriend of mine asked me how much Sheldon Cooper I'd been watching. I hadn't been. I later saw the episode that reminded him of me, where Sheldon explains if the roommates decide to remove the back panel, they are breaking their social contract with the warranty providers. He doesn't panic and say they can't; he analyzes it, sees the Fi social contract deal, wants it clearly understood and acknowledged in a Te manner that they would be violating the contract, and agrees to it like an Ni free agent. I think he's often written as an INTp. I can see over time his character as resembling various types. INTp, INFj, ISTp, INTj....
Some might say his rigidity regarding physical and social arrangements is Si-comfort based, but I exhibit slightly similar behavior: I tend to eat the same things at the same places after exhaustive research on and decisions regarding things (which reminds me of his getting his chair in the right place with several factors coming into play in his decision). He is feeling infringed on by people/his own needs, in my guess, and he wants to systematize shit so he can go back to his mind and not be bothered by body processes and social people.
In my opinion:
Penny - ESE
Leonard - LII
Sheldon - ILE
Raj - IEE
Howard - SLI
I've always thought that Leonard was some sort of feeler, mainly because he whines so much. He reminds me a lot of some EIE friends, and I also find that it's mainly betas that love this show.
-> Leonard: Beta-NF
Penny is a lot tougher, doesn't seem to value or be good at Fi. She portaits more of the vices that I attribute to Se than Si (like the difference between drinking liquour a lot (Si) and drinking a lot of liquour (Se)).
-> Penny: SLE
What about Sheldon... Well first off he's a very eccentric character so that would make him hard to put in a box. Well I'm not really sure but I think he seems to value Fi>Fe and he's really arrogant (Gamma).
-> Sheldon: LIE (because he do Feck with people)
If Penny isn't ESE and Sheldon is LIE socionics is doomed. Seriously guys, get a brain transplat before posting again.
I haven't watched the show in a while but from what I remember, the characters are just generic enough to appeal to both Alpha and Gamma NTs and SFs. Either way, it's pretty funny. :lol:
Fuck YES!Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
I think SEI for penny, she is pretty lazy and materialistic defiantly an alpha with Si ego, she is super bubbly but I would say IP temperament fits her better than EJ. She reminds me of all my SEI friends.
Sheldon LII or LIE. While Ti would make more sense than Te valuing Se and Fi makes way more sense than Fe and Si. I think I would lean toward LIE simply because EJ fits better than IJ and I would be reluctant to type Sheldon an Alpha.
I think Lenard is a delta, he defiantly values Si and I think Fi over Fe, Te > Ti makes sense being an experimental physicist and I don't really see any Ni in him he is very down to earth without a grand view of the future unlike Sheldon. If I had to type him I would say LSE or SLI.
Can't be bothered going into detail with Raj and Howard but at a guess I would say IEI and LSI or SLE respectively.
Penny - SEI
Sheldon - LIE
Lenard - Delta ST
Raj - IEI
Howard - Beta ST
Penny is far too high-strung for an IP. Alpha SF is about obvious, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by moredhel
ESE.
Ti fits and Se fits, so he's...Gamma. The fuck?Quote:
Sheldon LII or LIE. While Ti would make more sense than Te valuing Se and Fi makes way more sense than Fe and Si. I think I would lean toward LIE simply because EJ fits better than IJ and I would be reluctant to type Sheldon an Alpha.
I'm not seeing the Fi-valuation, frankly. At best, Leonard appears to have a put-on politeness typical of LxI, but he does have moments of complete social retardation that look like Fi-PoLR. He seems Alpha NT to me.Quote:
I think Lenard is a delta, he defiantly values Si and I think Fi over Fe, Te > Ti makes sense being an experimental physicist and I don't really see any Ni in him he is very down to earth without a grand view of the future unlike Sheldon.
Howard Beta ST? Hornivore Leisure Suit Larry, Si-devaluing? Dude.Quote:
Can't be bothered going into detail with Raj and Howard but at a guess I would say IEI and LSI or SLE respectively.
In fact, how is either of those :Se: valuing?
I agree with this set of typings. I would've said ILI for Sheldon, but ILE is probably more likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveler
Have you dated an SEI? they are high strung as fuck they simply have periods of low energy as well..just like penny :P. ESE is more consistent and rational.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleksei
I said Ti fit's better than Te but since he is a fictional character I think him valuing Se and Fi is more prominent and therefore he gets to be gamma. Sheldon seems like a freak experiment of putting Ti and Ni together in an ego.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleksei
Wouldn't social retardation better describe an Fe PolR? I think he has the awkward politeness of a Delta St he's not crazy enough to be an ILE and I think he's too grounded to have an intuitive ego, plus Te seem stronger in him than Ti.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleksei
How can you not see Se in Howard O_o he's basically a sexual predator. Definite aggressor. As for Raj I think Se seeking fits well as does an IP temperament, he's basically asking to get paddled by a big strong beta aggressor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleksei
In high school -- and I have a close SEI friend (respectively, SEI-ESE and SEI-SLE). I don't remember them being high-strung in any way -- they were both just epically lazy. What you just described is either an EP, or an irrational-subtype EJ.Quote:
Originally Posted by moredhel
I don't see the Fi, in any way, whatso-bloody-ever. My personal typing of him is LSI, but I've actually considered SLE, based on just how much he is not aware of nor cares for Fi.Quote:
I said Ti fit's better than Te but since he is a fictional character I think him valuing Se and Fi is more prominent and therefore he gets to be gamma.
No. Fe-PoLR describes a lack of tolerance for emotional expression, and for behavior that'd be personally offensive to people (or to a particular person) in favor of maintaining a given mood -- Fi-valuing types prefer politesse.Quote:
Wouldn't social retardation better describe an Fe PolR?
More to the point:Quote:
The individual tries hard to never let himself "come apart at the seams" emotionally or even let out strong feelings publicly, because displays of passion do not come naturally and make him feel self-consciousness and vulnerable to painful criticism. This makes the individual generally seem emotionally neutral and politely indifferent to excitement and agitation around him. The individual deeply dislikes attempts by others to get him to "cheer up" or "join the fun", especially in the context of group activities with loud emotional expression.
Quote:
SLIs see no reason to get worked up about things. They tend to condemn people who do not control their emotional displays and "fly off the handle." They believe that people should think first about the effect their words and emotions will have on other people rather than just spilling out negative or potentially hurtful feelings as they feel like it. If someone has chewed them out in an emotional way just once, they tend to hold this incident against the person for years. To them such behavior is unnecessarily demeaning and malicious.
Se-egos aren't typically sexual predators, as Se-egos are not particularly interested in sex (the one Se-ego we both know notwithstanding). as a libidinous attitude is, in essence, related to immersion into sensory delights, it is something that's most appealing to Si-valuing types. In fact, my experience in particularly with female Se-egos is that they're more often than not prudes. Se-egos can be hornivores, of course, but this is normally related to the thrill of the chase (the sheer challenge of sexual conquest itself) as opposed to the sheer enjoyment of sexual activity, to unconscious Si influence (Se-egos are Si-id, and thus Si represents a strong repressed impulse in their psyche -- especially in the case of SxEs), to influence from a particularly sexually-charged atmosphere (Se-egos in Alpha or Delta environments absorb the prevailing belief that sex is important, and thus develop a particularly aggressive sexuality -- such as Aggressors in the Delta culture of Australia), or to NTR physiological issues such as hormonal imbalance (which is the case of the particular Se-ego you're probably basing your conclusion on ;)). I see no evidence of any of these from Howard -- he just... really likes fucking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleksei
I'll respond to you too Aleskie but I'm too lazy to go back and quote you.
I see it in her, she moved to California to seek out an acting career, I'm not sure that it's strong enough for it to be in her ego though. She isn't really constantly seeking out new experiences and adapting. Yeah the more I think about it the more sure I am of SEI, she's bad with money, lazy, excitable, irrational (the engine light thing), enjoys creature comforts, she is pretty much my ex girlfriend who is defiantly SEI.Quote:
Originally Posted by octopuslove
Yeah lol this makes sense, yeah Lenard likes to keep the peace in situations, I see him valuing Fi > Fe because he seeks out that closeness with Penny and was all upset when his relationship with that other girl was just about sex and he never goes out of his way to be in a large group. Delta makes more sense than Alpha for Lenard.Quote:
Originally Posted by octopuslove
I agree, I've never met a beta who wasn't interested in sex. Si is not a sex function, it may contribute in a way but saying someone who likes sex values Si is dumb. However Se is the function that would make Howard capable of chasing after women, even using your definition of Si/Se Howard's personality is more about the chase than the actual sex.Quote:
Originally Posted by octopuslove
So yes still think Beta ST.
Ahh what was the other thing ahh yeah, Sheldon defiantly values, Fi look at his intense hatred of particular people (that physics chick that Lenard slept with). Fi is as much about hate as it is about love, it can equal judgement particularly in a Gamma and Sheldon is about the most Judgmental person ever and can hold a grudge a very long time (typical behavior of Se blocked with Fi). So yeah LIE.
I didn't see your post Traveler - yes, those are the correct typings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveler
Of course most humans find sexual activity physically pleasurable. Rather, Se-egos are unlikely to pursue physical, carnal pleasure as an end in itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by octopuslove
At least from the post at the top of the page, Sheldon as LIE seems rooted in "uhm, Sheldon has long-term negative opinions about people and stuff, so he's :Fi:-valuing. Because everyone knows :Fe:-valuing types just don't ever have opinions about people."
With regard to Howard, ability to "chase" (that is, talk to) women does not strike me as necessarily implying :Se: in the ego block.
^Precisely. :thumbsup: I literally agree with every single thing you wrote above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaDoomerI agree with this set of typings. I would've said ILI for Sheldon, but ILE is probably more likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveler
Thanks. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by FDGI didn't see your post Traveler - yes, those are the correct typings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveler
@OctopusLove, thanks for saving me the trouble of responding. :lol: yeah, I agree with pretty much everything outlined in your last post; though I'd like to expand a little on this one thing:
This is absolutely correct; though with the small caveat that 1) Fi-superegos and superids have issues evaluating their closeness to other people (leading to paranoia in the former, excessive trusting in the latter), and 2) Fi-superegos (Beta STs in particular) don't act on negative feelings about other people, if it's seen as detrimental to their goals. Other than that -- nobody doesn't have feelings about/seek closeness with other people. That's retarded.Quote:
I think everyone seeks out emotional connection (see e.g. the forum's universal obsession with duality). It's human nature.
I've just seen two more episodes, I'm now certain that Sheldon is an Infantile. ILE>LII.
If Sheldon is Alpha NT, he'd be a ridiculously rigid LII-Ti.
Sheldon is the most unadaptable person ever.
It isn't type related the fact that he's rigid and unadaptable. He's a hardcore OCD ILE, overall most of his behavior shows that he's irrational despite the rigidity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleksei
Damn right it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveler
In essence, Ni (especially Ne-leading) is fundamentally defined by a taste for novelty, experience, openness -- all of which not only imply adaptability to new developments, but bloody active seeking of them. Sheldon does neither.Quote:
Ne is generally associated with the ability to recognize possibilities, create new opportunities and new beginnings, recognize talent and natural propensities in others, reconcile differing perspectives and viewpoints, rapidly generate ideas, and be led by one's intellectual curiosity and stimulate curiosity in others.
Types that value Ne prefer to try out an opportunity rather than consider all possible ways in which it could not work out. They pick a few options and stick with them, in contrast to introverted intuition (Ni) types who pick one option and continue to doubt that option.
I could see LII as the only other type for Sheldon, but then that would result in having to change Penny and Leonard's type.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseiDamn right it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveler
In essence, Ni (especially Ne-leading) is fundamentally defined by a taste for novelty, experience, openness -- all of which not only imply adaptability to new developments, but bloody active seeking of them. Sheldon does neither.Quote:
Ne is generally associated with the ability to recognize possibilities, create new opportunities and new beginnings, recognize talent and natural propensities in others, reconcile differing perspectives and viewpoints, rapidly generate ideas, and be led by one's intellectual curiosity and stimulate curiosity in others.
Types that value Ne prefer to try out an opportunity rather than consider all possible ways in which it could not work out. They pick a few options and stick with them, in contrast to introverted intuition (Ni) types who pick one option and continue to doubt that option.
Except that what I just quoted makes Ne-ego rather less than likely. For Sheldon to be LII he'd have to be the most anal-retentive LII in the world, thus atypical, thus probably not "the only type that fits."Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveler
You can't go by quotes and take them literally. The reason Sheldon is so anal-retentive has little do with his personality type, socionics doesn't explain everything. What type or types do you see him as?Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseiExcept that what I just quoted makes Ne-ego rather less than likely. For Sheldon to be LII he'd have to be the most anal-retentive LII in the world, thus atypical, thus probably not "the only type that fits."Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveler
Oh, but I should -- type doesn't exist outside of them, as Socionics type is essentially the closest fit within the actual human psyche to Augusta's bogus model of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveler
Beta ST.
Beta ST really? For some reason I just can't picture an SLE or LSI doing have the things he does. Sure Sheldon is bossy and controlling, which would fit in with Beta ST. However, a lot of his nerdy behaviour would point to ILE imo. Just look at the way he dresses, his video game hobby, and movie preferences. He's also very interested in things that aren't in the real world, but rather exist in theory, which is something I don't think an SLE or LSI would care for.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseiOh, but I should -- type doesn't exist outside of them, as Socionics type is essentially the closest fit within the actual human psyche to Augusta's bogus model of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveler
Beta ST.
No way is he a sensor!!!!
He's so paranoid about his health and unaware of his body, weak Si FTW!
THIS proves that Sheldon is not an ILE....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3DfwFZZXDQ
+ you're all too hung up on the fact that they are scientists, when they're actually like all other sit com characters only that they've been nerdified...
I'd say LII would fit him better for sure if using the merry/series dichotomy. I've been thinking of this possibility of these typings:Quote:
Originally Posted by ClumsyI agree with Sheldon as LII or ILE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveler
From the "merry/serious dichotomy" thread, because I think these were great descriptions:
vs.
I can see both of these in a way demonstrated by his character, although Sheldon to me comes off as more "blatantly serious" as opposed to seeking it out or wanting to be seen in that way. The over exaggeration of his character's tendencies for comedic effect makes it a bit more difficult to sort out his type.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magna
Penny: SEE
Leonard: ILI
Sheldon: LII
Raj: IEE
Howard: SLI
Whiny nasal drip slimy mopeass mofo Leonard is not my Dual! :o be right back, gotta vomit until blood comes out...
Now I'm pretty much forced to type a fictional character, aarrgg :lol: he (and by "he", I'll have to mean a mixture of the character and the actor) gives me the impression of wanting the living shit out of some :Si:, though beyond that, things are hazy, in large part due to what's between the parentheses...
Do you agree with the typings of LII for Leonard, ESE for Penny and ILE for Sheldon?Quote:
Originally Posted by woofwoofl
I like Penny as ESE, I've got Leonard as ILE (I don't think the character matches the actor, something's throwing me here), and Sheldon's gotta be Ti-LII; the IJ-as-hell temperament, the overwhelming Alpha vibes, his fussiness over his chair and surroundings, Infantile being absolutely obvious when Leonard and Penny babysat him more or less that one time, his butting heads with ILI Amy Farrah Fowler...Quote:
Originally Posted by TravelerDo you agree with the typings of LII for Leonard, ESE for Penny and ILE for Sheldon?Quote:
Originally Posted by woofwoofl
:D :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by octopusloveI don't really agree with that description of LIIs, it applies better to ILIs in my opinion, there's a reason why they're referred to as "the Critic".Quote:
Originally Posted by Clumsy
It's ok woof, there's no way Leonard's ILI! His main gripe about his mother is the lack of hugs and not celebrating his birthday, putting such a high value on outward signs of affection = Fe > Fi (As Sheldon points out, in many other ways she prepared him for success, therefore proving that she does actually care despite the lack of hugging). And he's always trying to make peace with everyone. He's "loveable geek" (Alpha NT), not "misunderstood and cynical geek" (ILI).
I don't know what it is with Leonard precisely; I like Raj a lot, Howard's got an odd mojo about him I can get down with, and Sheldon's intriguing (we'd probably drive each other nuts, I wouldn't mind much), but there's just something about Leonard that I find absolutely gross...
Alpha NTs are cute, but there's something absolutely compelling about ILIs :)
This would make sense except I can't really see Penny and Sheldon as duals as they clash a lot. Having them as activity partners would make a lot more sense. Like you'd either have to switch Sheldon to ILE and Leonard to LII or have Penny switch to SEI for all of it to make sense. I think the problem with Sheldon is that he's designed as a very eccentric character so as a result he may appear as a different type during specific moments. Also, it could be possible that the characters have little to no parallel with inter-type relations.Quote:
Originally Posted by woofwooflI like Penny as ESE, I've got Leonard as ILE (I don't think the character matches the actor, something's throwing me here), and Sheldon's gotta be Ti-LII; the IJ-as-hell temperament, the overwhelming Alpha vibes, his fussiness over his chair and surroundings, Infantile being absolutely obvious when Leonard and Penny babysat him more or less that one time, his butting heads with ILI Amy Farrah Fowler...Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveler
I still think most likely that Penny is ESE, Leonard is LII, Sheldon is ILE (with tendency to appear IJ due to his extreme OCD), Raj is IEE and Howard is SLI.
Sheldon seems INTj > ENTp. His logical dominance(socially so) could make him seem like an ExTj type
Howard might be IEI
Raj as Introverted + Serious(IxTp, IxFj)
Opinions from the thread:
Penny could be ESF, but SEE > ESE
Leonard could be IxTp, his geekiness/social awkwardness is more lowkey than the others
Penny - ESE
Sheldon - SLE
Howard - ILE
RAJ - SxI
Leonard - INTx, lean towards LII
I'm typing based on actors
I am convinced that Penny is ESE and that Sheldon is SLE.
I can see what you are saying here. This threw me a bit too.Quote:
Originally Posted by octo
I think the writers softened Leonards character to play off Sheldons arrogance, and to make him more likeable. I don't see him as a feeler type. The language he uses is far too logical. The very first episode is a good place to start in trying to type the characters, since this is how they start out, later it's more difficult to type them, since the arc of the story shows how they have grown as people.
In the first episode, Leonard invites Penny over for Indian food, he tries his best to be sympathetic to her saying he knows how stressful moving can be and then goes onto say... "Indian food is a natural laxative. A clean colon is one less thing to worry about" That is a very logical way of conversing. He is so awkward, holding the bag out in front of him and looking so unsure of himself. INTp's/ILI's are riddled with self doubt. He is constantly questioning himself, just like an INTp/ILI would. INTj's/LII's on the other hand, are a lot more self assured, like Sheldon.
When Penny comes over to their apartment, she starts crying over her breakup with an ex boyfriend. He is at a loss as to what to say, but feels he must say something, so he gives her a logical argument to make her feel better. It is obvious that the world of feelings is quite foreign to him.
I think the writers used the term "didn't get enough hugs as a kid" to convey how unsure of himself he is, in a way that the audience could understand. INTp's/ILI's secretly crave love and affection. They can be closet romantics.
He is also very conscientious. He has a chance to cheat on Priya, but he doesn't. INTp's/ILI's are very conscientious too. Sometimes their conscientiousness can be mistaken for sympathy.
I think the casual way he dresses is very much in line with an INTp/ILI also. Although his room is always spotless, which I wouldn't expect from an INTp, but I have a feeling, since it's a TV show, this little detail was overlooked. His mother seems INTj/LII, so maybe she drilled order into him? Who's to say.
I know that Chuck Lorre, the creator of the show, studied Jung. He may have based the character of Leonard on the mbti INTP. He fits better with that description, than the Socionics "Critic" Socionics is still so new in the west it's hard to say. I hope he has heard of it. I'd love to meet him and pick his brain.
Penny.
I typed her as ESFp/SEE.
She described herself as sensitive, and she is quite warm, and often corrects the ethical mistakes of the others. Also, she starts crying about her breakup within minutes of meeting Leonard and Sheldon.
Her emotions are made very clear, so I would say she is definitely a feeler type.
She can't say I love you to Leonard and breaks up with him because of it. This could be interpreted as her being a thinker, but it's common for ESFp's/SEE's to back away when things get serious. Life for them is all about fun, and Penny is a fun time girl at heart.
She is very spontaneous. She doesn't understand Sheldon's need for order and being so particular about everything. She likes to go with the flow. If she was an ESFj/ESE, she would have a need for order also, and would understand Sheldon a bit better. I think her spontaneous nature points to her being an irrational type. Monica from friends was an ESFj/ESE. Penny is no Monica.
Someone mentioned that her room being messy doesn't prove she is irrational, and that is very true, but it does give us a clue. There was absolutely no order to her apartment whatsoever. So much so, that Sheldon felt the need to break in and sort it out.
Someone also said that she took care of Sheldon when he was sick. Yes she did. But did you notice the look of frustration on her face when she had to rub vics vapo rub on his chest and sing soft kitty to him? She didn't enjoy it like an ESFj/ESE would have. She ran out of the apartment the first chance she got.
Her car is not in the shape I would expect from an ESFj/ESE either. Sheldon points out all the things that are wrong with it, and she merely shrugs and says it doesn't matter. An ESFj/ESE would be a bit more on top of things than that.
There is conflict between her and Sheldon. Nearly every time he opens his mouth to her she rolls her eyes or has a look of frustration on her face. I type Sheldon as INTj/LII. So I think they have conflict relations and her and Leonard are duals.
Sheldon.
INTj/LII.
He's an introvert. He doesn't like to meet new people. He said he has 212 friends on myspace, when Leonard says "but you've never met them," he replies "yes, that's the beauty of it."
If he was an ILE, he would be an extrovert and display extrovert tendencies. Meeting new people would be something he looked forward to. But he prefers to have a few close friends, and even then, he sometimes even ignores them.
He is very particular about everything. Everything has to be a certain way, and if it's not he gets very frustrated. He likes his life to run to a schedule. He likes to know what he will be doing and at exactly what time he will be doing it. If he plans to do something at 8p.m. and his friends foil his plan and delay him by 6 minutes, he gets very annoyed. He is clearly not an irrational type.
He is constantly talking about theories, and clearly prefers to dwell on the hypothetical over the concrete. He even invented 26 universes to make his equation fit. He is Ti. So that rules him out as a sensor.
He is self assured, just like an INTj/LII. His humour is exactly the same as all the INTj/LII's I have come across.
I'm actually quite surprised by the confusion and frankly a little annoyed. As Sheldon would probably say.
I would argue that Penny is an Introverted Ethics, rather than Extraverted Ethics valuer. Notice that most of her fall-outs with Leonard are due to him saying something she finds inappropriate. I can't remember the last time she actually tried to keep the mood up in the group for its own sake. SEE or IEE (more likely IEE as she doesn't have that same drive as an Extraverted Sensing lead, focusing on the unrealistic aspiration of becoming an actress.)
Leonard - EII his entire focus seems to be about forming and maintaining relationships (to the point of compromising most other things). Extraverted Sensing vulnerable is quite clear.
Amy - LII - oh yes!
Sheldon and Howard - ILE (shows how much ILE can vary with different MBTI types, Sheldon being INTP and Howard ENFP).
Rajesh - IEI methinks. I get that phegmatic Victim vibe from him.
Bernadette - I'm going to go with the common opinion of SEI.
You're confusing the meaning of extraversion here. We're not disputing that in some personality systems Sheldon is an introvert. However, in Socionics he comes across as very much an extravert, hence he is often the centre of attention, the one talking, the one voicing his opinions when nobody asked for them. etc. His aversion to socialising in the orthodox manner can easily tie in to Introverted Ethics vulnerability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eye of the Potato
Writer imo is IEE. It's kinda of a Delta take on Alphas and how wierd they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starfall
Sheldon is ILE(definately not played by one)
Penny is ESE(actress might not be)
Leonard is LII
Howard is some sort of Delta type(IEE imo)
Bernadette is EII
Amy is ILI? LII?
Raj is SEI?
EJ's are either super out of control or super rigid, it's kinda of a maximumalist temperment.
IMO, caregivers aren't really caregivers in the way people think about them, romance styles is simply that "romance" styles, and describe interaction at a intimate distance rather than long distance. Of course some take this role beyond the household and into the public part of life but often a ESE will be a party animal Bon Vivant who's never home and has a pretty chaotic free-wheeling life of leisure.
But eventually they meet someone, and that someone needs them to stabilize and there is either some attraction or reason why the caregiver needs to give care. It could be love, a child or any number of reasons, but it happens, a bond is formed, and this reinforcing interaction creates the caregiver and infantile dynamic between the duals.
Penny has that EJ explosiveness and is constantly criticizing Sheldon's behavior without really making any remarks on his character, this is sort of what :Fe: types do which help to moderate a lot of behavior but it's not personal.
I want to reiterate what I said before about romance styles. Don't use those to type, they're "romance" styles.
i agree w hkkmr except howard is a reuben clone (ile) and bernadette is some xxxp so id take iee or sei over eii
Reuben it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio
http://static.themetapicture.com/med...ote-Howard.jpg
Sheldon: ILE!
Howard: LII
Leonard: SLI
Penny: IEE
Rajesh: SEI
Where is his Fe-polr?Quote:
Originally Posted by 1981slater
I haven´t watched much of the series, but Leonard seems down-to-earth and diplomatic, as a dualized SLI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pa3s
Typings here are, as usual, horrendous... This seems to be largely due to an inability of the people here to recognise the four temperaments. When typing fictional characters, this is the first thing I go on.
Sheldon: LII - Introverted Logic is Ego, that is certain... everything needs to adhere to rules and structures. He is Rational... "This should not be this"... "That is incorrect"... "It should go this way" etc. Sheldon is about adhering to structure and if there isn't a structure, he quickly makes one. Se-Vulnerable? YES. Sheldon can only bully other people intellectually, when faced with something requiring willpower against something physical, he is inept... he needed Raj to drive him home because there was a big dog outside. Despite his mental strength his inadequacies are centered around a chronic lack of confidence towards the real world. His rudeness to others does not make him an xLE because this is simply unvalued, not a source of inadequacy... compare to Howard for whom this is actually painful.
Leonard: IEI - Introverted Intuition is rather clear, rather than confront a situation he adapts to it, it's why he can live with Sheldon. At the same time this is why he fits in well with the more dominant Penny. Leonard is also the one most filled with doubt and uncertainty despite his great intelligence, very different to Sheldon who pushes his certainty because of his intelligence. His Semi-Dual relationship with Penny is rather clear to see... Introverted Intuition and Extroverted Sensation are complementary... then Sheldon expresses his feelings which Penny reacts badly too... i.e. the Extraverted Ethics and Introverted Ethics clash. Despite fulfilling eachother's main needs, these two are not in a comfortable or stable relationship because of this value clash. If we look at Leonard, he is also the most focused on how the group is feeling, he is Extraverted Ethics savvy.
Penny: SEE - Irrational!!! NOT ESE. Penny is Extroverted Irrational i.e. impulsive and after experiences and the things she wants. An ESE would instead be more interested in how everyone is feeling and whether the mood felt matches what she thinks the mood SHOULD (rational) be. Instead, Penny pursues experiences and reacts to things based on her own sentiments (Introverted Ethics)... it is more apparent how she feels towards others, not how she thinks people are feeling. At the same time, Sheldon's unwavering, linear, rule based logic is a real pain in her backside.
Howard: ILE - Introverted Ethics is weak in him... he routinely upsets people like Sheldon does only for him it is awkward and painful, he hates himself for it. Can be inappropriately unenthusiastic. Flamboyant dress sense can easily be mobilising Extroverted Ethics. At the same time, pursues the interesting and 'cool'. Is undisciplined (never became a doctor). Despite striving for freedom, still tolerates the lifestyle his mother gives him because Si needs are fulfilled.
^^ That's funny, I now think that Howard is IEE and Rajesh ILE. Inconsistent writing perhaps, but I think that Howard has become a lot more sensitive and personal emotions based, almost a bit of a whiny bitch about it really.
I've only watched this sporadically @ other people's homes, but here are my suggestions:
Leonard and Penny: IEI, identicals (Penny looks like she's extremely adaptive to different social settings; both seem like IP temperament/slackers who react to situations rather than cause them)
Sheldon: EIE (at least seems like an extrovert, needs to be the hero and the center of attention; he seems kind of autistic though)
Koothrappali: LII (?)
Howard: ILE (?)
lol wtf?Quote:
Originally Posted by xerx
I don't care what you or anyone else thinks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio
yeah, but oh my god lol how bad can you possible be at typing people
Ha ha ha ha ha ha. I wouldn't talk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio
i know you are but what am i
Sheldon is quite clearly ILI. As an ILE myself, I find his character a bit obnoxious, I was watching the show today and was shockingly turned off of by his character. Seemed too similar to the reaction I had against many similar ILI types IRL.
For the others, my guess would be that:
Penny is ESE
Raj maybe LII
Leonard ILE/LIE
And Howard *shudders in disgust* SLE
My guess for Howard because even though they are all supposed to be scientists, and SLE isn't typically associated with that field, the way he's written to act strongly seems reminiscent of the manias of Se-Ti.
I think Sheldon is ILI, I'm pretty sure.
Sheldon <3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3Bpukvdbso
Sheldon is EIE:
Polr Si of course. The fact he isn't even slightly interested in sex.
His spot. 1d Si, doesn't want to be in another spot. He found his spot and is sticking with it. Polr can sometimes be like somekind of an irrationnal need, can't change unless force to experience something else. Always eating the same food etc.
Role is Te and Suggestive Ti, needs to know the details, ask why a lot. His need to live in a world with structure, the roommate agreement, demonstrate the 1d Ti of his suggestive fonction.
Leading Fe
I believe him to be judging a lot. He knows what he likes and doesn't like. He even knows what's best for others, can tell them that what they like is stupid.
Mobilizing Se
Needs help to do all the actions, the fact he doesn't drive for example.
He always looks "good", great posture, clean shave, etc. Dresses as the norm ask him to. Not to flashy, never unclean.
But the thing about Sheldon is that he wants to be logical so bad! He has somekind of fixation about logic, but can't help be a slave to his Fe (like all of his wims, demands etc.)
He follows the norms of Te and gets a lot irritated if someone breaks Te. This is also why he can't lie.
That is the main thing I believe about Sheldon, a 2d conscious Te.
@Destroypuppy,
I always figured Sheldon was ILE, and that explains his relationship with Penny, who is in my view a blatantly obvious ESE (funny, no one really knows her last name and yet we know EVERYTHING else about her, I wonder why?). The two of them have a great chemistry (even if they are just friends), and I see it as a pretty clear activity relationship. I also see Sheldon having a Fi polr, because the guy has all kinds of crazy rules about how close people should and should not be towards him, how he should and should not behave towards others, who likes who and why (and the guy loves gossip cause he always lights up briefly when he hears something, then his logical base comes in and he "pretends" to be uninterested in others, when it is very clear (to me of course), that he cares very much about his friendships). By the way, the guy is such a perfect example of Ne creative there could ever be. Ti/Ne most likely for Sheldon. All his other quirks and phobias are not type related.
I see his love interest (not a great choice by the writers), Amy Farrarh Fowler to be a LII, and the mirror relationship never quite takes off between the two.
Leonard, (what an altogether annoying character) is a tricky one to type, and although I think LII would be an easy choice given his logical nature and strong attraction and interest in Fe (mostly coming from Penny in the show), I just can't place my finger on his type. Certainly an introverted logical base, or creative, and definitely orientated towards Fe. Funny how him and Penny never hit it off though, and I find their looonngg relationship to be very taxing and boring to watch season after season. But, ESE's don't just settle for anyone (haha, what type, or person does?).
Some other characters off the cuff typing:
Howard Wolowitz; a more chilled down ILE, or possible SLE (simply because of Se, I mean the guy went to space). I think the way he uses Ti is very utilitarian, he is an engineer, and the intorverted thinking kind of "serves its purpose" in this character in a way that does not happen with Sheldon who is much more theoretical and employs creative Ne to influence his Ti base. I think Howard is creative Ti. And his relationship to Bernardette is another one that never really gets all warm and cozy, like it might if she was an IEI. They are very much both logicals. Howard always seems to be pushing her for more "soul" and heart. He is looking for Fe from his wife, which he never gets much from her.
Raj Koothrappali; IEI, never quite gets Ti enough for a better typing, but he is an introvert and I think his relationship with Penny as his supervisor. Look at all the episodes where Penny is giving him advice about how to live? He is duals with Howard if Howard is SLE. That would explain why these two are like two peas in a pod, and also argue all the time yet still heart one another (as friends though).
Bernardette Rostenkowski; ISTj, which would make her relationship with Howard either mirror (if he was an SLE), or supervision (if he was an ILE). Either way I could see it as being possible. the chick is funny, has a sharp humour. It also makes sense for her to have a semi-duality relationship with Penny.
Priya Koothrappali; hands down ISFp.
So how did I end up watching this show? Streamed the whole thing off the internet with an ex partner. I found it mildly funny and at least something to watch during the dark, cold, winter nights. The Big Bang Theory is in my view the most alpha filled TV show to play on television nowadays. Not because of the content, which is mostly Ti, Ne, Fe related drama, but because of the characters. It feels like a complete quadra drama every time I see it. I wish I could remember more details about the show, for example certain events or episodes, but it's been a year or two since I have seen it.
He want to know the rules of social behavior, rules are very Te.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wacey
He ignores Fi, is what I believe.
First, ILE don't like routine and Sheldon is the guy that has the most strict routine ever.
*Dislikes routine and any regimented, monotonous work. Cannot live by a strict schedule.*
EIE-Fe are like this:
*Irrespective of whether this person is modest or outstanding, he frequently lacks in naturalness.*
Sheldon lacks naturalness.
*The ethical subtype tries to behave according to the rules of what is considered to be appropriate in society.*
Sheldon ask a lot of questions about this to others.
*Internally he is emotional, but usually modest and constrained in his emotional expressions.*
Sheldon is specialy constrained in his emotions, letting them out as bursts.
*Find it difficult to relax due to internal strains, wounds, and overarching ambitions*
Sheldon is very ambitious.
*while internally suffering from a set of complexes, externally they appear proud and aloof.*
He is always telling everyone he is a genious and not crazy (his mother had him tested)
*Exacting in enforcing that their associates observe ethical standards of behavior and prone to rashly provide remarks and advice when they see people conflict with these ethical standards.*
Yeah, he's always doing that.
*Prudent and cautious. If he senses impending danger, he is capable of taking the necessary steps to avoid it. Inclined to over-dramatize events and warn others of potential problems. When he is trying to warn people close to him of potential dangers, he may undertake unnecessary initiative, even seem a bit obsessive and intrusive.*
Quotes are from the Type and Subtype Descriptions by V. Meged, A. Ovcharov.
^Nice use of quotes mate!
rules of social behavior are Te? Just wondering what you mean by that.
And I thought about it overnight and have come to the conclusion that I believe there is no way Sheldon Cooper is EIE. Like no way that character is Fe base.
@Wacey
What is an Fe base from your POV?Quote:
no way Sheldon Cooper is EIE. Like no way that character is Fe base.
Also, its not the same as ESE who delivers comfort as a product.
What Sheldon has to offer is Ni:
They are able to understand the essence of complex internal situations and make for potentially good analysts.
In life they loved to dramatize everything. Everyone around becomes informed about the slightest change in their mood or internal state.
Usually they are very fond of "making mountains out of molehills", for them this is a way to find work for their second function.
If anything, my friends say that when I was 14 years old, I was 100% similar to Sheldon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After hanging out I have come to develop my :Fe: / :Si: behaviour.
Leonard is a horny LII, Raj is a naive SEI, Howard, a witty IEE, penny a plain ESE
I think penny might be SEI.
I know a SEI girl just like her, even the face, but she is a little bit heavier.
ahh leonard is the annoying guy in the balls i think. he's so whiney, and conforming, and boring, and blah, and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1981slater
to me sheldon and penny are ok, and the rest are freaks.
did they ever hook up?
do you talk about your bathroom habits>?Quote:
Originally Posted by Starfall
Sheldon's an LII.
See:
-relationship with his dual ESE (his mother)
-lives outside sexuality ie Alpha Infantile
-all kinds of goofy, Alpha-esque fixations (trains, Legos, Star Trek, etc.)
-rigid (rational)
-an introvert (too focused on the soundness of his own, private conclusions)
Bernadette's an SEI.
I want to say Leonard's an EII 'cause he's so emo all the time.
Penny's an SF. She could be Alpha, but I lean towards Gamma, because of her conflict-ridden relationship with Sheldon. I say SEE.
Don't know about the rest.
Sheldon - LII
Leonard - IEI
Penny - SEE
Howard - IEE
Rajesh - ILE
Bernadette - ESI
Amy - ILE
Sheldon is ILE but the Actor is EIE
Sheldon has a lot of wierd neurotic traits, but he's a show off, he's the biggest show off on the show. This is a ILE trait not a LII trait. Leonard is the LII.
His OCD isn't really rationality, but neurotic :Si: dual seeking, his spotlessness and neurotic behavior around cleaning is no different than Tesla who would obsessively clean his room.
He has routines which imo is more territorial behavior or :Te: vs :Ti: because his routines are very strongly related to ritualistic actions which he has to take, this is more a manifestation of 4d :Te: than :Ti:. He is a aggressive and initiative taking individual, and he asserts his superiority over the other individuals around him, once again a more extroverted expression.
Sheldon also doesn't have any problems breaking the law some of the time such as breaking into Penny's apartment to clean it. He's driven by how he sees the world not how anyone else sees it.
Also imo Sheldon is someone that interacts with people on a business level, the contract he has with Leonard, the way he has Facebook friends but doesn't interact with them. However through out the show his actions have a great effect on what happens, because he's always engaged in some work activity, he's only a recluse personally, professionally he's very outgoing and attention seeking.
Anyways, I don't think he's a introvert for various reasons and I think his relationship with Amy is almost unwatchable, the lack of chemistry is gag inducing.
Penny and Sheldon are the more natural match. Kelly Cuoco is SEI or ESE and I think the character is as well. To me this is the only thing worth watching about the show.
There's almost no information conflict in this relationship. Socionic conflict isn't about arguments. Through-out the show their relationship deepens due to these arguments but it's really communication of completely different information.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoobie77
I think it's perhaps more appropriate to say ILE dislike other people's routine and they don't like regimented monotonous work, however Sheldon doesn't do regimented monotonous work, he always lambasts Leonard for doing derivative and trivial work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Destroypuppy
Sheldon's routines are very personal and most likely neurotic and not really a great personality indicator.
When Einstein used to work with Godel they used to walk together everyday. Also often imo ILEs will have some routines which they have which will bookend their spontaneous time, like when they get to work or when they leave, but between that it's not routine at all.
I wouldn't say that he's much of a show off, he is narcissistic though. However, this is a general observation of ILEs rather than a something ordained by the Model A. What I would say is that Sheldon's leading function is Ti. Every decision he makes follows first from Logical Introverted Judgement... is this correct? Does this follow? Is this legal? What is the principle to this? Far more than an opportunity seeker (Ne lead), he is a rule creator and adherer, expecting similar compliance from others to almost idealistic standards (Ne in service of Ti). Sure, he breaks the national law by breaking into Penny's flat but Ti doesn't need to follow the law of the land. Ti follows the structures it has committed to and so a personal principle can transcend the morality of people he would consider to be lesser beings.Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
I would not say that he's professionally very outgoing either. He stays in his office working on his lofty theory and doesn't jump to new fields... in fact he looks down on any field that isn't his own. He doesn't seek to span out. He seeks to refine and go deeper to the root of the universe. I would like an example of him attention seeking as opposed to just acting in accordance to a principle or misguided sense of duty. I rarely see him acting selfishly (with Howard and Rajesh it's very much "Do I want this?", with Sheldon it's more a case of "it it correct to let these idiots fail at the task when it can succeed under my leadership?").
His OCD would be Si 2D Hidden Agenda... an ILE with 1D Si would find such activities too tiring or be too unaware of the clutter around them. The Suggestive function is one of almost blissful ignorance where one is positively surprised by input from others (look at Howard). The Mobilising function is one of exertion and effort in a vain attempt to reach mastery.
He is intellectually aggressive, that is true. He is however not at all physically capable. He is terrified of the dangerous outside world with all its unforgiving roughness. He insists on physical protection so that he isn't torn apart by reality... the haughty intellect fleeing before a barking dog. That would be Se vulnerablility.
Penny and Sheldon are not a natural match, their blatant conflict is a source of comedy.
I would say that Penny and Howard make great examples of a Semi-Dual relation. Very 'moth to the flame' where Fe-expectancy of emotional feedback "I love you" meets less pleasing personal Fi sentiments "oh, I'm not emotionally ready to say that yet". I would say that regardless of what Kaley is, her character is very much about impulse, taking the things that she desires, conquering men etc. She does not actually care about the physical quality of her environment (room's a tip) but instead is far more interested in whether she is experiencing something exhilarating. She likes to party, go out to bars, get drunk, kiss a hot guy. She's also no-nonsense, can very much take care of herself on a physical level. Very much Sensory Extroverted Irrational. Her attraction to Leonard comes from him being able to adapt to her desires and put things into a greater perspective. At the same time, Sheldon likes her fiesty love of life, she's no caregiver and certainly doesn't enjoy looking after Sheldon even though she does a good 3D Si job of it.
Ritualistic action is actually a very large part of Merry logic. The rituals and rites work with the group display of passion and enthusiasm.... Fe and Ti. It is however bizarre for an ILE to be caught up in ritual when there is an interesting opportunity to pursue.
I wouldn't call him :Ti: leading at all, the clear :Ti: leader is Leonard. In this show there is someone who although less neurotic is far more :Ti: oriented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron
Cept there are ILE's like Tesla. There is just a little(more like a krap ton) of Tesla in this character, this is a guy who stayed in a hotel at the end of his life and was a total recluse, celibate. Also there are other ILE's and extroverts who did some of this in their later life like Howard Hughes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron
He got beat up at lot in high school, when he gets drunk he beats up Wil Wheaton. Yea he's afraid of physical world because he is not strong enough to confront it, but he's not afraid of fighting, part of the reason why he gets beat up is because he's so conflict creating by proclaiming his superiority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron
This isn't what real information conflict looks like, what Penny and Sheldon have is not really conflict. They don't understand each other, they don't get each other, they do strange things which can be exasperating but it's not information clash. The thing about information clash between conflict relations have is that you kinda of are conscious of exactly what is clashing because these are all conscious functions in play. The pain these conflicts cause are not mere flesh wounds. They aren't really conflicting, more bewildering each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron
I do think she might have been written as with some SEE characteristics, but the actress isn't, and the character isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
Leonard is hardly a Ti lead. He just adjusts calmly to the environment, trying to get through the turmoil without taking much damage. He also tolerates bothersome conditions and cheers people up. At no point do we see principles leading the action. Legislation, rules and consistency are far less important to him than just getting by in the long term and he spends far more time making sure the people he is with are happy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqqWVjsC9L4 - Sheldon doesn't beat up Wil Wheaton. He gets completely drunk and goes to defend his girlfriend's honour but quickly takes the apology and vomits into the flower bed. The fact that he makes a laughable attempt at a stereotypically Se action on the one time he gets drunk only serves to highlight his Se ineptness... the idea that lifting his limitations and neuroses with alcohol leads him to attempt the thing he would NEVER do when in the right mind.
You are assuming that Nikola Tesla and Howard Hughes are ILEs. I am not of an opinion concerning these honourable gentlemen at present. However, referring to particular instances of people supposedly of a type (whose actions were in a very different context to those of Sheldon's) is a lesser feat to showing how the behaviours of the character in question fits the Model A structure of an LII or ILE. Show me how he is Leading Ne and Creative Ti. Show me why his Si is Suggestive and his Se only Role and then you will have a strong argument. At the moment, I have shown this in favour of LII and hence my argument is strong.
Actually, this is very much what Conflict looks like when there is an absence of a point of contention. When conflictors have nothing to conflict over, they are merely bemused by each other and lack understanding. With Duals and Activators, this bemusement is lacking, types of the same quadra share valued IM Elements and so there is a great deal of understanding. It's when conflictors talk neutrally that they realise they simply cannot appreciate what the other person sees as important. This, when coupled with a real issue, such as an actual wrong being done, leads to the most destructive breakdown with little cause of relief. For the sake of comedy, such a wrong is not made but the bemusement is kept. In the same way, when I am talking with an ESI, we do not spontaneously go into hostility, instead I just think how completely backward her way of thinking about the world is.
I have given a coherent argument that Penny is SEE. Simply supplying a contradictory statement is not sufficient to justify your position. I do hold that an actor and their character can be two different types which can make portrayals confusing to type but if you look at what Penny's character is and how her actions are written in the plot, she is a pretty stereotypical SEE.
What you see from Leonard most of the time isn't :Ti: but :Fi:, but it's not his leading function, it's his role function. Role functions are contact functions, while leading is an inert function. I think this is a important stumbling block people have when typing. Leonard is a character that tries to mask his nerdiness but is still nerdy. Also imo his work life is not really show on screen, so it's hard to gauge his work life, but he is far less mercurial an individual vs Sheldon. The actor is IEI imo or EII.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron
I've shown he is aggressive, arrogant and demanding, I don't really consider him narcissistic because he knows his faults somewhat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron
I think you're very wrong about this. Conflict quadra relations with the same static/dynamic dichotomy don't have as much misunderstanding as you think there is, and whatever misunderstanding is overcome, it creates very little desire to communicate closely. When conflictors/super-egos engage in a lot of interaction, all trust is destroyed and communication attempts are avoided. What has happened in Penny/Sheldon's relationship is that trust has been created and communication attempts are increased and they have changed each other greatly even as they still do not really understand each other. Duals and activity relationships have the least "understanding" in many ways because the super-id functions are both unconscious and weak, however as interactions increase one realizes this unknown is what is desirable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron
I can see her as SEE maybe in season 1, but as she has developed in the comedy, she is no longer is SEE. Most of the traits you have said about her is no longer valid for her. Also I find that individuals who haven't had sufficient interaction with a dual or activity partner may exhibit a lot of ID behavior because their ego behavior hasn't been properly rewarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron
You can make a coherent argument all you want, but ultimately the developments within the show doesn't fit. This could be inconsistent writing, actors playing a role that doesn't fit them and various different things.
Also this tidbit, this character has been recast to be less mean, which could indicate the writing for this character was much different in the beginning versus now.
I don't really see this show as very naturalistic show so the typing and type of characters may not remain the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
It's pretty slippery territory to assert that a person's Role might be more noticeable over time than their Leading function. Contact/Inert is about potential for growth and development, not about the functions of the Super-Ego block being more apparent to a person than the Ego block. The whole point of a 2D function is that it isn't on most of the time but is switched on for limited bursts when needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
He refuses to allow his faults to tarnish his sense of superiority. That is narcissism.Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
It's perfectly conceivable that an LII can be demanding, arrogant and even aggressive in the intellectual sphere. The only reason why Extroverted Sensation is seen as 'aggressive' is because it's most responsible for physical confidence, navigating concrete information and taking the advantage in the present. You may notice that the people who are most combative on forums like this are actually Intuitive and Logical where conflicts are not over physical space, ownership or territory but theoretical correctness.
I would not say that the source of misunderstanding is a difference in the Static/Dynamic dichotomy. I think it enlightens on how the IM Elements work (as with temperaments) and are applied but I don't think a Static type can't appreciate how a Dynamic type thinks. Do you have an article that explains your point of view? From experience, I would say that Duals and Activity partners have a great deal of understanding. The vital/mental divide is more to do with whether a person is actively aware of their deficits or not... with the Vulnerable being a pressing issue and the Suggestive being an ignorance that is enlightened. As for conflictors, the source of conflict is that the very premise upon which the world turns for a type, the leading function, is openly rejected as bad by the other and vice versa. Fundamental to it is a sheer lack of appreciation for what each type lives for... The ILE suppresses and rejects personal sentiments and judgements as an obstacle to the pursuit of the new and interesting. The ESI rejects new opportunities and possibilities for change in fear that they will tarnish moral integrity and go against their personal sentiments. Their life philosophies are opposing and thus there can never be appreciation. In fact I think that Static/Dynamic needs to be the same for this direct contradiction and thus lack of appreciation. When it comes to Duals, the two types have different, compatible philosophies where each has overlooked the other and can do with its assistance.Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
Perhaps our disagreement here is on what is being misunderstood. I am using it in the term of values... understanding X as being good rather than a bad thing. An ILE cannot begin to understand how someone like the ESI should say that Ne should be restricted as a threat to the good Fi.
When it comes to Penny, it's apparent that she doesn't like Sheldon's Ti-centric approach. She has no appreciation or respect for his rules and systems or the general or even Ne+Ti 'intellectual play'. Her development in the series has been one of tolerance, not appreciation and she continues to see Sheldon as a strange being that is better left alone.
This shows that she was originally meant to be a hard, possible Se-centric character. Rather than create a whole new character, it's more feasible that they just chose a softer, nicer person to fill the same sort of role for the sake of keeping things comic. This does not stop her being an SEE.Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr
I would agree that consistency of character is a different thing in Tv shows like this (which is why I have had difficulty with Howard and Rajesh in the past). I do think that Penny has stayed pretty consistent however and I have not seen any sign of an Si or Fe lead... she doesn't proactively try to keep the group in a certain mood, she's not a happy entertainer or hostess and she doesn't keep herself comfortable and relaxed. She is short tempered, moody and a tad impetuous.She is far more of a life-loving, impulsive, perhaps even aggressive (in a non-intellectual sphere) sort of person who has been stuck in a very alien environment and has had to begrudgingly adjust to survive, sticking with Leonard as the only relatable, Ni-leading source of sanity to her.