in the case of INTj/INFp relationships of benefit where is the benefit? what is benefit? what purpose serves these relationships in society?
how much should I charge them ?
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in the case of INTj/INFp relationships of benefit where is the benefit? what is benefit? what purpose serves these relationships in society?
how much should I charge them ?
Yeah really. A little more clarity about his relation would be good. My mom's my benefactor and always gives me things, then again, she's my mom and moms generally do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by krae
I don't know too many enfj's. The ones I've known I've mainly given advice.
Lets take the example of INTj and INFp
INTj has
big :Ti:
small :Ne:
INFp has
small :Fe:
big :Ni:
The big :Ti: of INTj is over-supportive to the small :Fe: of INFp. However, the small :Fe: is inadequately supportive to the big :Ti:. As a result the INFp gets more support out of the relationship than the INTj.
Not only that, the INFp's big :Ni: is over-critical to the INTj's small :Ne:.
Alright, INFps -- what am I(NTjs) supposed to learn from you?
i don't believe you would ask such a question. the answer is very clear.
your benefactors exist to give you a clear analysis on the merits of batteries, including a comprehensive guide to selecting the appropriate brand, color, tint, average AMU, and the standard deviation of the diameter of the negative pole, not including the exterior.
INFps are generally masterful at knowing everything of batteries; i have yet to meet one that did not know what a battery was.
Hmm, that's an interesting take. I won't ask how or why about the batteries, though.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
so yeah. thanks to INTjs not being able to get under their tasty Benefactor's pants there is so much bias and hidden hate towards INFps. also it's getting even more shitty as the beneficiary is extremely sensitive to benefactor's words. SO if some INFp chick tells you that you suck you mr. INTj login into the internet and start posting and writing articles about how bad the INFps are :lol:
I'm not sure if it's about learning but more about benefit from their Fe which corresponds to INTj's dual-seeking function.
also it's good for work since INFps can perfectly see how would INTj's work affect people/relationships in the long run although INTjs sometimes prefer to hide from that responsibility.
INTjs are attracted by the INFp's :Fe: charm if the INFp deigns to give the INTj the slightest flavor of it.
However, INFps regard INTjs as pussy-wimps due to their :Se: PoLR and their :Ti: strikes the INFp as a bit arrogant.
The End.
yeah anyway thanks for painting once again INFPs as pretentious, greedy bitches
I know that YES I view their Ti as sometimes too arrogant. but I do have respect for INTjs minds and accomplishments and I just.. respect my INTj friends in general.
That wasn't my intention :oQuote:
Originally Posted by indigoroom
I do know it's not that simple. My post was an intentionally crude description of how the INFp benefactor would view the INTj beneficiary from the point of view of function analysis alone. The INFp's dual-seeking function is :Se: , so they would not be particularly attracted to :Se: -PoLR types. Of course individuals are individuals.
Perhaps you can tell me why it should be different, socionically speaking.
That asian's cute. I'm jealous of her hair. Hmmm, there's something feeling about her.
Perhaps INTJ needs to emotions to spice up their lives and that is where the INFPs come in putting everything subjectively. INTJs perhaps need a different view point than objective. ?
We're supposed to stop you from over-analyzing your mother and get on with life.
oh, and stop thinking of all your relationships in terms of socionics. they are people, not letters. they will form their own roles in your life, not their precisily allocated letter formation you have applied to them without their knowledge.
Wow. How did you know that? Honestly, this is probably the best description of how I tend to view INTjs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
I think sometimes the dual-seeking function can be "strong" in the sense that it allows one to look for the presence of a function in another person. I think this is part of why I feel like I supervise INFjs sometimes.
Most definitely. I agree. Also, the dual-seeking function is also part of your quadra values.Quote:
Originally Posted by gilligan87
Well, I am really good friends with two INTjs. They do seem to really like me, and value my opinion on things, kind of look up to me in a way? Well, at least one does. The other, well, we're just really close.
I like INTjs myself... I don't really see them in a bad light or anything.
My relationships with INTJs are quite variable, and I think this could be related to subtype differences. One of my closest friends is an intuitive subtype INTJ; he's very warm and laid-back, yet intensely intellectual, detached, and private. He and I are able to joke together, discuss philosophy, and share personal stories. We also have similar senses of humor - he seems to find nearly everything I say and do hilarious.
My other INTJ friend is a logical subtype, and our relationship is somewhat different. He's a bit more hard-nosed and abrasive than my intuitive subtype friend and has a tendency to criticize me often because of my soft-heartedness and tendency to vacillate in making decisions. His way of relating to me also involves a lot of mockery and somewhat demeaning humor. I like him a lot and enjoy spending time with him, but I have trouble determining if he's truly angry/fed up with me or if that's just his nature. He is, however, utterly fascinated by my intuitive subtype INFP friend (I'm an ethical subtype INFP) and wishes that he could be more like him.
So yeah, I get along with some INTJs better than others, but I'm not entirely sure about their perceptions of me. I actually like them very much and value their humor and perspective - they never cease to be stimulating company.
- ethical subtype INFP and dork in the extreme :)
that is why you love em and leave em.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
many times i actually view myself as their benefactor of sorts. i think it is an fp <=> tj thing.
The INTjs I know are all very interesting people. The beauty of this relationship is that we can spend hours discussing topics that would generally bore most people. The agony of this relationship is that... we can spend HOURS discussing topics that would generally bore most people, heh.
We reach a point in the discussion where I keep running up against the INTj's :Ti: - they are firmly entrenched in their own belief about the topic at hand, and as much as I try and offer a more :Ni: :Fe: vision of the situation, it just rolls off of their backs. They don't get it. And they don't realize they don't get it. And I don't realize that they don't realize that they don't get it. And so we end up saying the same thing in many different ways over and over and over again, chasing after whichever direction their :Ne: wants to take us.
I have never seen it in real life. So how do these two types get along over the longer period of time. I'm not interested in links to some descriptions. I'm interested in real life storys. Hopefully from real INTjs and INFps.
I have seen strong friendships develop between INFp-girl and INTj-guy. The INFp-girl is generally in awe to the INTj-Ti, which something she would like to be able to do. The INTj is extremely fascinated by the INFp but, on the other hand, turned off by the perceiving nature of her feelings. When the relationship gets closer, the INFp-girl becomes very distresses by the difficulty the INTj has in "having fun" and "letting loose", along with the general squeamishness of the INTj in Si matters (as an example, read Subterranean reaction to my posting in the "Favourite Lyrics" thread). The INTj, again, tries to "convert" the INFp, but the INFp passively resists.
In all honesty, I know this because both times I was the "third party". I mean, that both girls were going out with me whlist trying to return to the "friends" status with the INTj.
I've never been in a relationship with an INFp personally. But I can agree with what FDG, based on what I know about myself, socionics, and INFps.
Especially the part about LII looking for rational emotions
and the INFp looking for someone who is more 'fun'.
FDG described it perfectly. I honestly can't give a better account of my own experiences with INTjs.
i find i am able to start friendships fastest with INFps. I can be the one distancing myself at times and the INFp can be the one who is annoyed with the relations as well.
I like INFps' sense of humor, although it becomes taxing after a while.
Hi LIIs!
Please give me the juice on your relations with IEIs?
:love:
(Awh man are you guys cute! The ones I know are awesome ^^)
you are an IEI?
I haven't positively identified an IEI yet RL (and I doubt that I know any of the ones on my sister's list), but the ones on this forum seem quite nice (except strrng, who is pleasant enough but also dangerous).
One of my best long-distance friends in all the world is LII. And I know two others. Always get along great with them. After awhile, they do seem a bit boring. Safe or something. Content to sit around reading (not that there's anything wrong with that but I get antsy) or researching whatever they're into at the moment.
Geez, he scares his mirror as well, I think he is identical to Bin Laden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brilliand
Yes, Fear of Sleep I am :)!
Haha you guys think strrng is dangerous? Why :tongue:? I have a virtual crush on him lol :rolleyes:.
Thanks Redbaron! That sounds cool :). I have a really good LII friend too but she's a little safe, yeah.
I wonder what this match is like for romantics because I just met this super cute LII guy or at least I am pretty sure that's what he is, maybe I should get people to VI him since I don't have much meat on him. I just wonder what it's like on the other side for the LIIs.
My best friend growing up was an IEI. We played a lot of video games together, and he would laugh at my jokes. He was much better at socializing than I was, so in social situations I would use him as my "link" to the social world; otherwise I would just sit in a corner and observe events. In other words, I valued his Fe.
On the other hand, I was never able to understand his thought process. His behaviour was always unpredictable and unreliable and confusing (especially since I didn't know anything about socionics or personality types at the time). And while we were "best friends", there were other people in my class who were closer "best friends" than we were, and I always wondered why that was. And now, thanks to socionics, I know! :)
Thanks! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Krig the Viking
I could also call him "sharp," though I don't mean that in the sense of intelligence - he slices into people, catching emotional nuances and using those to tear into that person. While he does have a fair amount of intelligence and insight, it always seems to be accompanied by some sort of sting. Rationally, I'd never consider myself to be in danger, but there's a powerful sense of threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by dinki
Some of the disccussions on this forum have concluded that that's common to Beta Quadra, but I've only seen it in him and (more faintly) in some of the SLEs.
It might not be an indication of his behaviour in real life, but his online persona reminds me of an Se ego.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brilliand
Jason
You seem giddy. Are you sure you didn't drink from the :Si: koolaid?
Lol. Appreciate the Fe fear of sleep :wink::wink:.
Oh...I've never seen him do it to 'innocent' people. Is he like that in arguments or in general, have you noticed?
Actually, yeah that's a good observation, I notice I do that as well when I feel really angry at someone, when someone is unnecessarily attacking myself or other people. It's like that Machiavelli idea that you have to totally destroy an enemy, if you just slightly hurt their pride then they will retaliate. I think all Betas sort of operate from that idea when it comes to conflict, which I guess do make us the most lethal quadra.
But I do think it's unnecessary quadra bashing, most Betas don't act like this unless they feel unjustly attacked, it's just the Betas that constantly fear they will be attacked that are like this all the time.
In what way?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brilliand
I answered this:Quote:
Originally Posted by 07490
Incidentally... have 07490 and Winterpark swapped identities?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brilliand
Also, why are 0 and o right next to each other on the keyboard?!
I just noticed if you tell an INTj 'Don't be so crabby!' in an upbeat, light-hearted way they will ease them up and make them warmer. (with lots of Fe of course)
But never, ever ever bully them lol.
Really, if you say anything at all to an LII he will ease up and feel warmer, so long as you suffuse it with lots of positive Fe. :)
LII: "I am frustrated and upset." :indifferent:
ESE: "I like pie!" :lol:
LII: :content:
Feminine Fe is really captivating, matched with her facial expression. It's like, what the Hell.
Fixed again. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Krig the Viking
Fixed again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krig the Viking
lol
Fixed morer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krig the Viking
A few posts I've translated from Russian-speaking forums: http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...ations#LII-IEI
Makedonski (LII): I am living in the same dorm room with an IEI roommate for a third year now. At first I personally thought that I've never had a better friend than him - it was all good in our friendship. Later we started having problems as it's depicted in benefit relations. Not sure how to describe it ... he started to annoy me with his jokes and heckling, which previously I didn't notice. Reviewing our friendship, I can say that almost all of it fits with socionics benefit.
Verenika (LII): My mother and father are of these types. They have been married for a long while. Sometimes my mother gets bored a little, and my father apologizes to her over some minor things - but they don't fight. They love each other and have raised two wonderful children. As I understand the IEI is somewhat upset over what she sees as weakness of character in the LII, his inability to assertively demand something for himself. IEIs think that LIIs are too soft-bodied (in comparison with their duals - of course!). Also the LII wants to sit at home (though this isn't true of all LIIs), while the IEI needs to be taken out, given some new impressions once in a while. This is what I have seen with my parents.
Fly lady (IEI): I haven't lived together with LIIs, but I've had several friends and acquaintances of this type. What irritates the IEI in the LII? The LII's certainty in that he has learned The Ultimate Truth. For an IEI everything in the world has multiple meanings, causes, and possible interpretations. For the LII - it is all linear. I like Ti, but to me it is clear that this is not a universal instrument for learning about the world, while the LII is fully taken in by it. Another "arguable" moment - LII's tendency to universal/global judgments. Everything that is happening, they evaluate from the point of view of world progress and benefit for the humanity as a whole. For me this is strange way of thinking. IEI's are very individualistic - they try to experience, check, and verify everything through their own experiences and reasoning. But don't be offended LIIs! You have asked what annoys the IEI in these relations and I have answered. I dearly love my LII friends.
Sumire (ILI): There are a couple of sources of irritation for the LII in these relation. Taken from observations of my best friends - an LII-IEI couple.
1) The IEI skillfully employs his creative function. He does this quite innocently - to inspire admiration, sympathy, etc. A grateful audience is, of course, needed for such an occasion. But the LII takes these emotional demonstrations at face value: he analyzes the literal text of what was said, tries to give specific advice to allay IEI's emotional worries.* Suddenly the LII sees that something illogical is happening here - this person doesn't want to leave his depressed state; he is enjoying what he is feeling. The LII starts to interfere in this process, and at the same time stops believing in these feelings, and later - the person. If the LII happens to "fall" under the charm of this manipulation, he feels himself cheated and disappointed. So what should the LII do with IEI's emotional displays? He should simply treat them as they were intended: as works of art. In theater, we enjoy the play that we're watching. I'm not saying that the IEI's emotions are insincere, it's just that with their emotions they create self-expression in such moments. I have kept friends with an IEI for many years just because I listen to him and enjoy the process of him expressing his joys and sorrows, and later tell him of my enjoyment. And I obtain a wonderful result: he tells me how life is bleak, and does so with such anguish, in such words as if he's painting it instead of speaking. Seemingly I should sympathize with him, but instead I give him compliments: "That was wonderful how you described that! You're so talented!" And where is his depression now? He squints like a cat being petted, hinting that he can do even better.**
2) When an IEI man tries to take on all the household duties and problems onto his own shoulders, starting from searching for a job and down to fixing the plumbing, it looks ridiculous. The LII in the beginning honestly takes up his or her share of responsibilities, but later, analyzing the the situation, comes to the conclusion that this is unfair. The LII also doesn't respect people who are not autonomous and need an audience. After the initial idealization phase is over, such an epiphany regarding his IEI partner will be annoying for the LII.***
[ * Incompatibility of two emotivists. Both IEI and LII are emotivist types.]
[ ** This may be true of IEI in the enneagram image triad (2,3,4) who indeed enjoy creating certain impressions and images of themselves, but it's much less true of IEIs of other enneagram types.]
[ *** Democratic-aristocratic differences are evident here.]
Ierofant (LII): I've had many friendships and romances with IEIs. It's very easy for an LII and an IEI to get together. Initially both feel attraction towards one another. It's easy for me to become acquainted with and charm Esenins. Before I knew about socionics, I used to wonder why the girls that I attract are so alike internally and didn't understand why this is so :-)
For a while, everything is great. Mutual understanding, sharing of innermost thoughts, and so on. Then problems begin. All of this was taken from my personal experience, thus it may not be universal:
Problem number one: The IEI is too insular. I dream of a person who is open, whose feelings would be apparent, that everything would be simple and clear, no omissions, lapses, or vague hints (yes, this is an unconscious request for my dual ESE). While the IEI is turned inwardly. It's not easy for her to open up and tell about herself. My attempts to draw something out of her she feels as pressuring, and then withdraws even further. If I close off myself, she doesn't notice it and is perfectly capable of living in parallel with me without any particular emotional involvement.
Problem number two: Conflict of rationality with irrationality. This has been described already on the example of LII-SEI. Similarly I start to feel irritated with IEI's irrationality which shows itself in small things as well as in large ones (how we took up home remodeling with an IEI is an entire story!). Discussing problems is something impossible! She cannot grasp my logic and at the same time cannot explain why she thinks this way or that way, then she starts getting angry that I don't understand her and withdraws into herself. On the other hand, when I explain something to her logically, she feels cheated, like a child being tricked by a magician. Plus the constant mood fluctuations with departures into herself, and the agonizing distress over every little thing. And the famous IEI monologues - once every while, she starts to Speak. At length, tediously, jumping from one thought to another in a completely unstructured manner, repeating herself and getting lost and tangled in her own thoughts, not making any distinction between what is important and what isn't - this she can be unloading onto you for hours. This verbal chaos is aggravating!
Problem number three: IEI's laziness. The IEI is visionary and inspired in her laziness. She is too lazy to get up and do something - it's much easier for her to imagine how she will get up and dream about doing something, and oh how great it will be - but remain at rest. She flows along with the current, and then complains that the current didn't carry her where she wanted. But to swim actively in another direction is not for her. As a result of this, an Image appears in IEI's mind. This image is of herself in her own dreams. With time, the IEI starts to believe that these are not only dreams, that she really is how she has painted herself within her Image. Next - personality split: "I, in reality" and "I, in the Image". When you see that inside the person whom you love there live two people - one of whom loves you, and another despises you because you are interfering - this is unsettling.
Besides that, the IEI never prods the LII on the topic of how to spend free time, unlike the ESE - she offers the LII to think of something himself. The LII feels lost, doesn't know what to suggest - as a result, joint free time is in danger of remaining dull and insipid.
Problem number four: managing the household together. The IEI is amazingly not into housekeeping. Considering that the LII is not into it either, their living space turns into bedlam. Periodically, the LII makes a scary face and theytake up cleaning and ordering things together. And this lasts a few days. From the point of view of managing a household, it is much easier for the LII to live alone - he likes cleanliness and order and is able to keep it up (according to his own preferences). For a family LII + IEI - their home turns into chaos. Good, tasty food - will be found in restaurants, since the IEI strongly dislikes cooking (she cooks occasionally, but not regularly and without much enthusiasm). For arranging and decorating the living space, the IEI will gladly come up with many different ideas and setups, but when it comes to actual implementation - choosing the wallpaper, drafting the furniture layout scheme, installing the wiring for the lights, and so on - her enthusiasm wanes,* she loses interest, this "toy" is no longer interesting to her. As a result, at home there is a bunch of projects that have been started but never finished, because the LII is fine living as it is - he doesn't see the wiring that is hanging from the ceiling, while the IEI is already bored with the idea about the lights.
There is a lot more I can tell about. As one LII friend of mine has said, who also went through an IEI phase: "after the IEI, being with the ESE is sheer paradise!" But there is a lot of good, too, in these relations. Mutual understanding, feeling for one another, journeys into each other's inner worlds, refined understanding of music, literature, art, and the simple Beauty of this world. With IEIs one can easily communicate non-verbally. But living together is very challenging.
* [The IEI quickly loses interest in absence of Se support and doesn't feel motivated by LII's Si. While the IEI is in need of strong forward momentum, the LII, as a "Judicious" type, is still in stage of planning and compiling drafts for how to position their furniture - Decisive/Judicious quadra differences are evident here.]
TheRoSS (IEI): This above response is great! It's nice sometimes to recognize yourself! Each point is spot on. But still, let's make a few additions to this.
Problem number one: Yes, the LII can be somewhat bothersome with his questions and inquiries. Do I really need to be held accountable for my every step? Not only do I not remember every little thing I have thought and done, but it's very straining to try to recall it. Plus, once I have made some plans, if I share them with anyone, there is 99% chance that I won't follow through with them. For example, if I make a present to some girl with whom I'm not in a relationship with but only dating, I won't see her again. Although may be in half a year I'll try to connect again, to be friends. Therefore, LIIs, please don't try to penetrate into IEI's inner world - for the IEI this feels intrusive.
Problem number two: LIIs at times flounder themselves with the same lengthy speeches, about how one should live and how one shouldn't. And they are so logical, so correct and consistent! that it gets rather tedious. Especially when they start talking about not having enough money. IEI's aren't that concerned about money! When it's there - it's good. But we won't work like mules just to earn a little more. And when I interrupt them they feel offended. Please don't! Just remember that we're different.
Problem number three: The personality split occurs in the IEI out of sense of their own inadequacy. The more you will pressure an IEI and demand him or her to be rational - the further he or she will withdraw and "split-up". Here I can give you some useful advice: don't wait for IEI's initiative in domestic affairs. It won't happen. And even if it will, you won't be happy afterwards. Show a bit of initiative yourselves and call her for help. But don't do chores in parallel, instead do them together. For example, if you're cooking, then ask your IEI partner to peel and cut the vegetables. If you take the initiative into your hands, the IEI will gladly help you out. When I can't stare at the mess at home any longer, I readily take care of it, while my LII partner takes care of the remaining details. Then for several months calmness and cleanliness prevails. But don't start up anything major, 2-4 hours of "home projects" is optimal. There is a lot that can be done together in this time. If you see the IEI is slacking a little, don't bother him or her - the IEI will soon feel ashamed of it him/herself.
Problem number four: I'll just add that IEIs, besides their seeming frugality, are keen aesthetes. Therefore, any mess or ugliness in their homes drives them further into themselves. In total chaos, you'll never reach them. Again, start taking care of it yourself and then call the IEI to help you. The IEI will come, and feel guilty if she/he doesn't. Besides, doesn't the mess feel oppressive to you yourself? When I was living together with an LII girl and the chaos has started, I told myself that I am going to look at this as if I'm living alone. I've simply started cleaning up on my own, and seeing this she joined in to help me. If you look to yourself to take initiative, you will get help from others.
If my words have offended someone, a big request to not judge me harshly. I was just trying to convey the general feelings and view points of an IEI in this situation. Perhaps this will help you reach an understanding in your mutual life together.
Pavel Decart (LII): I agree with Fly Lady, the problems are exactly that. Concerning Ierophant's post, I agree only with half of it, about the psychology, but don't fully agree with parts on housekeeping. The IEIs can diligently work on "setting up their nests", but they do so in pulses and waves. According to statistics of my friends and relatives, the LII-IEI is a very common pairing among couples. My mother herself is of type IEI. We love each other and have many common theoretical and spiritual interests (including socionics). I've also had several romances with IEI girls. In general, "benefit" is a good type of relations.
Eiren (IEI): Concerning IEI's outbreaks of emotions and hysteria, this was one of the problems in my relationship with an LII. Initially, he thought that I was a calm and emotionally stable person, and that these outbreaks are something very worrisome and unusual, that I am extremely distraught. What needs to be understood here is that during an emotional episode the IEI is indeed VERY upset, that for him or her it is VERY important. But later he recovers and feels that perhaps he's overdone it, that it wasn't worth it, etc. Thus, at the beginning my LII boyfriend tried to console me and of course interpreted all of this as something more serious and worrying than it really was. Meanwhile I started feeling like I am cheating him somehow, tricking him, trying to get something from him by these tears - even though I wasn't thinking anything like that, which made me feel ashamed. I think he, too, has recognized this - now he demonstratively tries to remain stoic, not give it any attention, wait it out until he can talk with me. Naturally, this kind of reaction also doesn't make the IEI happy (I'm not going to explain why, as I think it is apparent). I try to be calm even when he loses it. In such moments he tells me all that he thinks, then quickly calms down and apologizes if he got carried away. Sometimes our mutual introversion gets in the way. We nudge each other sort of like "may be you'll tell me something interesting?" "I see you didn't miss me too much - don't you want to talk?" At times, it gets unbearable as each of us sits in a separate corner and stares into his or her computer. But when both of us are in the mood to talk, there are lot of positives and a deep sense of fulfillment. Sometimes I make myself talk about things that I would normally not talk about, simply talk about what's happening around me, or remember something that has recently happened - my LII boyfriend lightens up, starts telling of something himself and making jokes, then I don't need to force myself to mimic an extrovert because our conversation flows by itself. Once in a while he will provoke these conversations himself.
Berrysister (IEI): Eiren your post was spot on, about the communication of IEI and LII, and about IEI's emotions ... When I am upset I usually try to show it by my look: I become withdrawn, aloof, depressed and scattered, although what I really want to do is cry and tell him of everything "to his face" i.e. throw a "small tantrum", but I restrain myself (I'm afraid I'll overdo it). I just can't bring myself up to say anything - he should be able to guess it himself! My LII bf always notices these changes and attempts to get a "logical" answer from me. At this point, I assume a mysterious look and say that I cannot tell him. What follows next is that his mood becomes same as mine, he may even act like he was offended by me. Usually after such episodes everything settles by itself, but a sense of dissatisfaction lingers.
Solaris (LII): ESEs emote in such a way that the LII doesn't feel himself at fault. If they give out negative emotions, it happens in short bursts, because the ESE soon switches his or her attention to something else. When someone becomes aloof and closed off to demonstrate how he/she is upset, this is truly unpleasant. If I have any energy and positive in me at such times, I'll try to prod the person, to make them brighten up. But if not, I begin feeling uneasy myself, thinking about the possible causes. A sense of discomfort arises: something isn't right within my close circle of people. If someone is demonstratively upset, then this person is likely upset at you, while you were only acting from your best intentions. And when you ask them, they make a mystery out of it. At this point of course I start growing angry and frustrated myself, and in an outburst may end up stepping on the same rake that nobody has told me about.
Berrysister (IEE): ESEs also have strong, very natural and very important for them emotions, which could be negative ones if something bad has happened. But the ESE states very clearly that he is upset over a dent in his car. What I mean is that in ESE's verbal flow the problem is directly mentioned and specified. In comparison, IEIs are much more insular and secretive. I think the LIIs don't always understand what has upset them. When they finally do understand, they become suspicious of the reasons that made the IEI upset or don't take those reasons too seriously.*
[*Difference between Si concretization and Ni generalization is evident here. The LII has demonstrative Ni and therefore struggles to take Ni information seriously.]
Eiren (IEI): I've been in a relation with an LII for almost 1.5 years. This relationship isn't simple. I fluctuate between feeling bouts of optimism, feeling that I am strong and that I can do whatever is needed, to badly wanting to have someone watch over me. Sometimes I can't tell my LII directly what I need without feeling slightly offended or disappointed ("you couldn't guess yourself?") Also - I don't like his one dimensional view on some things. When I delicately explain to him that of course, you are right, but if you look at this from the point of view of this person, whom you're judging and criticizing, then perhaps he is thinking that ... - here I get interrupted as he starts repeating and explaining his point of view again. Myself - I don't always carry out small promises, and something have nervous break down over small things, of which I feel ashamed later. But there is a wish to meet each other halfway and to compromise, and this is wonderful.
Larna (LII): Of course with duals it's easier to talk and to be around them. I very much love all my ESE friends, at least those of them who are good people. But concerning sensing, I often feel inadequate next to them. Have you ever worked next to an ESE or some other sensing types? I get a feeling that I should simply step aside and observe how wonderfully well they do all the work themselves, without my feeble attempts to help them. And they won't ask you about your TIM. Even if you're a "good girl" and get good evaluations otherwise, they will see that you're "sitting it out in the shade". The "cult of a good housekeeper" is promoted mostly by people of sensing types, and they will judge you by such criteria. Next to IEIs I don't feel this way. Of course I can dream near someone of a sensing type, but it's not the same. Of course, I don't need to ask ESEs to do anything - I haven't even finished talking while the ESE has already gone out and settled everything. And this is without any grimaces of onerous "victim-ness" on his face. But around duals the intuitive part of your personality never becomes realized. Of course you're cared for and provided for, but there is no deep understanding, no discussions of any deep philosophical or spiritual questions - all you get in return is a compliment and an apple pie. Roughly four years ago I left my ESE for an understanding IEI, whom I completely trust as I would trust myself. When we are together neither we nor any of our friends think that this was a mistake.
Cheshire (SLI): I have the opportunity to observe this kind of relationship firsthand. Everything is "by the textbook". The IEI still makes an unconscious request for Se and periodically provokes the LII (to exaggerate a bit: "Show yourself a man! not a sponge.") Though she knows in her mind that this isn't right, but still slips from time to time. She feels worn out by the need to constantly keep track of and attend to LII's sensory state of affairs. She only has enough strengths to keep track of their household, so what he receives often is verbal instruction from her role function about "how things should be". To constantly charge him with positive emotions for her, as an introvert, is also not feasible. She told me once: "He needs a lively girl with apple pies, and that's not me." Can you see in this a simplified image of an ESE? And she doesn't even know about socionics.
roza red (LII): LIIs do tell IEIs what to do, but they don't take these orders seriously. The IEI is waiting for clear directions and a volitional impulse. LII's instructions are usually phrased as: "Please do it if you find the time ..." or "Perhaps you could do it like this?" The help and advice provided to his IEI partner by the LII consists of him saying: "You can do it like this, or like this". The LII is oriented at conservation of one's strengths and self-defense rather than at demanding something actively or taking something over from someone. But instructions and advice given in this manner to the IEI will be taken into account and carried out by the IEI only selectively.
Video example of IEI-LII benefit relations
Falsely Accused of Being a Deadbeat Mom?
Ex-husband: LII-Ti. Wife: IEI-Ni sp/so. New boyfriend: ESI.
His complaints of his wife mismanaging their kids and calling her a "deadbeat mother" is a typical complaint that LIIs have for IEIs in benefit marriages, when IEIs with their irrationality, introversion, and weak sensing don't live up to LII's expectation of an organized and energetic ESE.
Crushing hard on my beneficiary (LII). Im IEI :8*
The sad thing is I think we're both trying "too hard".
Is this relationship doomed to failure? :?
VVhy vvould it be? It's a good relationship. VVhat do you mean by trying too hard?
I feel that my Ni is too rough for his Si HA, and that my Fe isn't enough. Communication is not that easy, although this may be because I like him and tend to overthink conversation with people I like.
I believe relationships of benefit can be really good. Especially since you know the theory behind it. As long as it feels good to be in that relationship, stay. It doesn't matter if it's doomed to failure or not, enjoy it while it lasts and then find a new partner.
If I am not mistaken, should not the benificator be "not that into" the benificiary or do I have it reversed?
Nonduality =/= Doomed to failure.
Why would an IEI even like an LII?
That sexy :Ti:, of course. Unf unf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saberstorm
it sounds like you would have the upper hand in the relationship, thus giving you a measure of control not found in other couplings. in principle this is an advantage to you. if you are not worried about getting bored in the longer run you are well set for a good ride.
that is the theory anyway. better advice would be to go for it and stop obsessing over how the interaction falls short of perfection.
Probably. Just enjoy it while it happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by matilda
Ok, I am still in the dark, could somebody walk me through the benefit ring again?
Like this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Saberstorm
Left ring of Benefit:
... > ENTp > ENFj > ESFp > ESTj > ENTp > ...
... > ISFp > ISTj > INTp > INFj > ISFp > ...
Right ring of Benefit:
... > ESFj > ENFp > ENTj > ESTp > ESFj > ...
... > INTj > ISTp > ISFj > INFp > INTj > ...
uh, no, what does benefit feel like? What is it beyond a silly, over logical and vauge wikisocion entry?
~teehee~Quote:
Originally Posted by Saberstorm
I'd like to know this as well. ENTj's are my benefactor? What does that mean, I dance for their amusement? They condescend me (they do, but I figure that's just typical ENTj behavior)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Saberstorm
I have an ENTj friend who practically worships me for things I do that I don't think are very impressive. He thinks its amazing that I'm living off 2000 bucks a month, he thinks I could be the president... lol. Perhaps glorification could do something with it?
I'm certainly attracted to ESFj's though... hubbuh hubbuh. Gimme somma dat feisty OCD ass!
Önly duälz cän läst förever. Never förget thät.Quote:
Originally Posted by matilda
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
PERVERT! Sodomizing your dependent children is against the law!Quote:
Originally Posted by matilda
I had a huge crush on an intj once. there was no real incentive to make it realistic or like we could meet irl or anything though.
types I feel comfortable being 'real' with and having a real relationship:
entps
estps
esfps
esfjs
infjs
isfps
though it's funny how much I get typed with this crap though. people have called me infj, infp, gay, narcissistic, talk about gay too much, annoying, big-hearted, too soft, vulnerable, 'needs to be protected', harsh, confident, strong, powerful, secure, insecure, steady, crazy, warm, cold, hot, ambivalent, guilt-trippy, moralistic, goody two shoes, 'has no spirituality'
The point is that who we are just isn't up for other people to decide! Different people all see different things.
My ex from long marriage was my Benefactor. He had a psychological disorder that meant it was impossible for us to ever have a fulfilling relationship. So I always attributed the marriage's failure (having done everything possible to make it succeed) to that. However, I am now acquainted with Socionics and in retrospect can see the aspects of the Benefit relationship that it was.
It is true that its hard (impossible?) for the Benefactor to value the Benefitee for who he/she is. That's a problem if "a need to feel validated" is an issue you bring to the relationship, as I did. However, I did learn in my marraige to find my own validation. Which was wise, since it meant I accepted reality (in some other ways I did not accept reality).
I also found it interesting that in a Socionics article somewhere it said that these relationships "always end" with the Benefactor leaving the Benefactee for someone else. :eek: Which is what happened in mine. I always thought that was the worst possible thing that could possibly ever happen to me, and one thing I loved about my ESE is that he was so intensely loyal. In fact that while my dreams and hopes died as i was married to him, I was always grateful and confident that at least he would never cheat! On that I could depend. I did not realize that this (being very very loyal) was only the persona he put out there. (And he worked on this persona. At the time of his affair, he was a paying member of Promise Keepers). But also true to his Narcissist diagnosis, it is easy to discard your persona and take on an entire new one very quickly and never look back, which is what he did.
So I didn't know how you feel about the possibility of that being how your Benefit relationship could well end. I always was convinced that surviving an affair would be the worst thing that could ever happen to me, which was why I was so grateful my husband wasn't like that even when the marriage was so bad. But in the end it was good - its good to face your worst nightmare and learn you can live through it. In fact it is of such great value to me that I came to know God's comfort and help that if I could to choose to go though it over again, I would, in order to learn what I learned.
It is impossible to tell what the benefactor wants from you...
As the only INFp on the forum I speak with authority when I say that INTjs are boring.
And I am having an identity crisis. I seem to have spent that last week thinking I am really an IEI. I am still and LII right? :cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scapegrace
I find most INTjs I meet pretty amusing. I like to hear them talk about their ideas and theories because the way they describe things is usually interesting and passionate, but often really convoluted and they get all worked up about it. I don't know why I find that amusing, but I do. Their nerdiness is kind of adorable. Then, I like to poke at them by subtly making fun of them. To make them laugh, basically. I also tend to try to push them to do things that I know they wouldn't normally do.
For instance, I had an INTj philosophy professor. He was extremely knowledgeable, and could lecture without notes for hours on various topics. But, when not lecturing, he seemed very shy. Most people found him pretty intimidating, but shortly after meeting him, I got the sense that I was the boss of him, for whatever reason. I went to talk to him during office hours, just for fun, and found him asleep (and snoring) in his office. I thought that was hilarious. So I went to the vending machine and bought a Rockstar energy drink. I walked back into his office and slammed it on the table and said "Hey, Rockstar! I got you a drink." He was super flustered, and just launched into awkward chit chat. And he did drink the drink. I also remember trying to do subtle things to distract him from his thoughts as he was talking. A lot of times I would tune him out, and make some kind of small but strange movements to see if I could get his attention out of his head and into the space.
This is just an example of one relationship I have with one INTj. I'm not saying that others are like this. But I do notice a sort of similarity between the above dynamic and interactions with others I have typed INTj.
Prepare for a large amount of obliviousness and passive aggressive behavior.
Was friends with/had a brief fling with an INTj (-Ti, I think). FDG is right, at first I was a little in awe of the Ti. Like when Ti-egos are just sitting and looking at something they seem to have this intense gaze, which I totally get wet for. I knew enough about socionics by this point to know that I don't value Ne-creative, and also that I am benefactor here (which romantically is off-putting). But it was like I was playing a game with the Ti-ego, trying to draw it in and outsmart(?) it, and that was fascinating enough to ignore the less savory aspects, like how awkward he was.
TBH I really did enjoy the times when just the two of us were sitting and observing/commenting on others around us. Other than that I found him to be a bit of an intellectual fraud.. I'm sure older INTjs with PhDs are genuine, and a few of my favorite professors might have been INTj. This one, however, could namedrop any classical author/theorist, but he didn't actually KNOW the material. He looked that shit up on wikipedia, bc he really doesn't have a life. One time he even tried explaining to me his methodolgy of going through wikipedia pages very categorically...:shifty:
After we hooked up one night I lost all interest.
Basically, in the beginning, you (the INFp) are a little bit drunk with Ti overload, and you fret (just a little) over the ways in which you fall short - loud Fe and Si. Once you get to know them really well, you realize all the ways in which they fall short, which is more important for YOU. I would strongly advise against a romantic relationship, no matter how tempting just to try. You will lose out on a doting and helpful ally, if you are female and you hook up with INTj.
:) this sounds like an infp talking about an intj at a comfortable, friendly distance. INFp amused or in awe of Ti, INTj glad to amuse and awe with their theories and quirks.Quote:
Originally Posted by rahmyn
I think this is similar to an INFp male's perspective, too. I don't rule out that physical preferences can't be adjusted to, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by sssonyyy
Interesting. I don't know if this changes your view, but I am more amused by their awkwardness in the way they say things.... not the content of what is said. That professor was one of my favorites because he was fascinating when he talked about his ideas. Really clunky and awkward when he wasn't talking about his ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
Fucking awesomeballs. They love rolling around in each others Ti. Like kittens in cottonballs.
It's something that's too inconspicuous and mundane to you, that the benefactor sees as valuable ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dionysus
My LII partner of two years ended our relationship. (And in true LII form; it was harshly final!) After much research and rumination, I'm seeing with startling clarity where we fell short for one another, analyzing all the things that made our match difficult. What a lightbulb moment! (All the IEI complaints I've read are frustratingly familiar and saddening..., but nice to hear since I never sought them out until recently!
I don't see a great deal of positivity where this match is concerned; my victim + his childlike combo and my slower maturation (he's a little older than me and I've had quite a bit of growing/getting healthy to do) sound hopeless, by the read of it.
But my underdeveloped T and other weak spots have been stretched and gotten a lot of work recently. Between my ever-helpful therapist, a new job that pushes me past my comfort zone and doesn't allow for my feel-y excuses to flare up, and the redevelopment of a relationship with my estranged ISTJ father, it's been truly enlightening.
I'm naturally loyal and devoted. Caring for a partner and learning to grow into what he needs (as long as I'm free to remain true to myself/feel respected) is something that comes naturally, even with all the hard work. With tangibles that a repeat of our history wouldn't happen as a compelling argument, I wonder if it would be a good idea to attempt to reconnect with my (former) partner (perhaps after some time has elapsed).
Am I being overly idealistic and should I let go? Or am I being persistent and growth-oriented?
That question has nothing to do with socionics and everything to do with you as people. Probably a better website.
Hmmm. Really? :/
Gotcha. Still learning--I suppose my analysis was premature/simplistic.
Thanks for the reroute!
Just out of curiosity, why IEI over EIE?
This doesn't read like EIE writing. IEI seems possible but not certain. There are huge differences between mirrors, not just one is more outgoing or whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Resonare
In relationships with INFps, I seem to have offered nothing that they deemed important except for the creature comforts that I provided. It was as if they would take my food but preferred to eat with friends, and though our conversations were polite, they usually contained no substance. As an INTj, I had the impression that I was only being tolerated.
a.k.a. I/O
This is a bad romantic pairing. The INTj is destined to be cucked in one form or another, but it will still be the INTj's fault in the eyes of the INFp, no matter how it played out. The INFp can manipulate the INTj into believing the INFp was at no fault for cucking the INTj. It was all the INTj's fault, because the INTj never gave enough, they grew exhausted and could not keep up with the INFp's emotional needs. They should have been more sensitive to the INFp, fuck them for not knowing any better.
INTj would have been better off in a relationship with an ISFp or an ESFj, but he had to go for the manic pixie snowflake he saw in the INFp. That allure is strong, hard to ignore.
Keep in mind I use the term "cuck" more broadly, not necessarily limited to meaning sexual infidelity. It might be some other form of infidelity or betrayal. It might be just emotional infidelity that the INTj will have a difficult time putting their finger on. Sometimes the INFp might even wave the possibility of infidelity in the INTj's face as a sort of emotional blackmail. A "I thought about cheating but didn't" to keep the INTj on their toes.
"The allure is strong". Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toynbee
@Toynbee, your post made me think of this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO2n7QoyieM
Mirage vs benefit from irrationality vs rationality perspective? It clashes in every parings.
I find contrary bases kind of repulsive. That side of the issue is very prominent in normalizing IEI's... That is: artificial logic sets the truth when the issue at hand was not like that and kills it completely and I'm flabbergasted by hastiness.
This relationship probably works best if both partners are independently wealthy. Then they both have butlers and maids to wipe their asses. Otherwise, I recommend against it.
Oderer girls are not very interesting compared to many other types. I saw them, they could be sexy, but personally not interesting. The only way they'd had chance with me - if they did 1st actions to become closer and then charmed by creative Fi, but as suborderer I should not to be interesting for this. And both should to understood quickly the relations are not deep to break them for better choice. Though, such relations may be kept for long on other basis, besides deep feelings. They are not completely weird as there is 1 complementing function. In case orderer wants - he may manipulate and control himself good to keep them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toynbee