ENTjs/LIEs as Enneagram Type 7

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Originally Posted by Elena

It is interesting to consider and I have thought on this some. My view on Enneagram is that it is about what an individual's basic motive in life is. Such as for a 7 one can say it is "To be happy" or "To avoid pain." For an 8 it is "To be strong" or "To be independent." And then the basic motive becomes a theme of their life coloring much of what they do and it comes out in many different ways. For instance it becomes rooted in many of our defense mechanisms as well. Such as for 7s it is said they use "rationalization" and "reframing" a lot to try and mentally transform a negative situation into a positive one. They are very future-oriented too, always focusing on plans and goals and fantasies of what they are going to do. They cannot stand stillness in their minds because they are afraid of negative thoughts entering. So it is like they are always perpetually in motion attempting to stay ahead of any possible pain that could enter. Also there has been a connection made between Enneagram type and Object Relations (Karen Horney's work) as well. For example the 7 is said to be "cut off from the mother figure" and feeling at some level that they did not get enough of the nurturing they needed as children. Then in adult life there is always a fear of never getting enough to be happy and always wanting more. They have a hard time becoming content people.

I think if one can see these things in themselves then what Enneagram type they are becomes clear. The neat thing is that there is many different ways it can be deduced because Enneagram comes out in so many things about a person. There is a good page at www.9types.com with many type descriptions by different Enneagram authors. If you have not looked there yet then I think you would find it very informative. Many of them outline the essential features that make each type what it is. I reccommend the one by Keyes the most. So in deciding one's Enneagram type it is best to look for which set of essential features all converge as true for you. That seems to be the best way I think.

I have spent many years learning about Enneagram. I can probably answer many questions you have and offer insight if you'd like. Feel free to ask.

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My apologies. I pretty much just reiterated what you wrote in fantastic terms. I tend to do that sometimes; jump in and answer a question, without reading the whole thread first.

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Originally Posted by Ezra

Why, do you think I'd get on well with him?

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My comment was half-facetious, but it can be taken literally. I have no idea of how you'd get on as I don't know how he behaves in real life. You might, if discussing anything besides socionics. I think that's the thing to keep in mind.

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Originally Posted by Expat

You can get an introduction into its history even at the Wikipedia article.

I think that at least some of the types were strongly influenced by Jung's types - at least as to the understanding of their psychology:

4: a "less wacky" version of Jung's Introverted Intuitive type
5: pretty much as Jung's Introverted Thinking type
8: at least influenced by his Extraverted Thinking type

I think it was pretty much invented by those guys, Ichazo and Naranjo.

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Incorrect. The Enneagram is as ancient as Plato's four 'temperaments'. It was G.I. Gurdjieff who brought it over to the West from mystical Sufi tradition.

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Originally Posted by Phaedrus

But type 7 is very clearly described as a type with an EP temperament, and every ENTj has an EJ temperament, and it is impossible to have more than one of the four socionic temperaments. So far you have described yourself as a person with a likely EP temperament, so naturally I wonder how you can be sure that you are an ENTj. What are your main arguments for that claim? Why do you refuse to answer that question?

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Phaedrus, I would never doubt your logic, but your inability to analyse different kinds of information is bloody disgraceful.

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Originally Posted by Ezra

Incorrect. The Enneagram is as ancient as Plato's four 'temperaments'. It was G.I. Gurdjieff who brought it over to the West from mystical Sufi tradition.

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But did that already include recognizable type descriptions or concepts?

from what i understand, the enneagram as a concept come from a very ancient tradition that .. I can't remember. But G.I. Gurdjieff simply brought the first prototype of enneagram (for example, he reintroduced the symbol).

The enneagram of personality (The actual concept that everybody knows) come from Ichazo. Ichazo created and Naranjo expanded to occident.

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Originally Posted by normal

from what i understand, the enneagram as a concept come from a very ancient tradition that .. I can't remember. But G.I. Gurdjieff simply brought the first prototype of enneagram (for example, he reintroduced the symbol).

The enneagram of personality (The actual concept that everybody knows) come from Ichazo. Ichazo created and Naranjo expanded to occident.

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That's what I know about it, too. Gurdjieff introduced the symbol and used it in dances, but I know of no mention of a typology behind the symbol. It's all shrouded in mystery.

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Originally Posted by Expat

But did that already include recognizable type descriptions or concepts?

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That's a point. It's been heavily Westernised by the figures you mentioned. I tend to follow R&H's version on things, but not strictly.

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Originally Posted by Phaedrus

But type 7 is very clearly described as a type with an EP temperament, and every ENTj has an EJ temperament, and it is impossible to have more than one of the four socionic temperaments. So far you have described yourself as a person with a likely EP temperament, so naturally I wonder how you can be sure that you are an ENTj. What are your main arguments for that claim? Why do you refuse to answer that question?

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Why do you think 7 is described as having an EP temperament?
How are you defining an EP temperament?
How are you defining an EJ temperament?
Why do you think I possess an EP temperament?

I'm sure I am ENTj because I know I am primarily Te and Ni. My main interests lay economics, predicting market trends, hard sciences, understanding the mechanics of how things work, and observing cause&effect processes in general. I try to make sense of the world primarily based on an empirical outlook. I consider myself foremost a realistic person and I am most interested in knowledge that is pragmatic and can be applied to the real world. Purely abstract, theoretical or philosophical knowledge, while it can often be interesting to me, does not motivate me much and doesn't fit my mind immediately (too much Ti). In my imagination I am always thinking of how things could be better, more optimized, and made more efficient. I have the future-mindedness of the ENTj and it always seems like I'm thinking 10 steps ahead of myself lol. I make a lot of plans and goals for myself as well, as I always must feel like I'm advancing in some way, for to be content with the status quo is never enough. Sometimes I'm preoccupied with great visions of things I would like to accomplish or see done. I am extremely restless and I don't like stability and I hate lack of change. I love to constantly be doing new things and I have a strong adventurous streak that I try to keep fulfilled. I do enjoy being organized though I could be better at this, as often I find myself a bit scattered instead lol.

Still not convinced? Of course you're not!

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Originally Posted by Elena

Why do you think 7 is described as having an EP temperament?

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I don't know. But there is a consensus, on this forum and elsewhere, that that it is so.

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Originally Posted by Elena

How are you defining an EP temperament?

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I don't know the best description of the temperaments, but here is one that was translated by Kristiina (if I recall correctly), though I have lost the name of the author:

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2. EP – Extroverted irrational (flexible-laid back temperament)

Energy exchange. Highly dependant on external information. They are calm when there is no need to use energy, but they switch on with full power when they need to be active. It’s very difficult for them to keep energy expansion at a high level for a longer period of time. In order to have flexible-laid back temperament, people have to be able to do many activities at the same time. (For example J.Caesar, who was able to read, write and talk at the same time)

Emotions and Behavior. The main trait of this temperament is the rapid changes in mood and status. This is how they differ from EJ. They can’t stand routine and predictability. Emotions seem as unexpected flashes in their generally relaxed mood. In a moment rage can turn into indifference. Note that their emotions depend on the external changes, not on the inner psychological reasons. Their behavior is very hard to analyze because it doesn’t follow any linear rules. Instead their behavior resembles a broken curve, because they try to get everything done at the same time. They give an impulse to one activity, continue doing the next activity, etc. (they keep switching between various activities). This is the only way they can get things done and it enables them to achieve a lot more than any other method.

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Sergei Ganin didn't like that description, but he didn't link to a better one when I asked him to. Here is Smilingeyes's take on the EP temperament:

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EP EP EP EP EP EP EP

A person to whom it is easiest to make and break the rules of the environment.
ARISTOCRATIC, NEGATIVE, NARRATIVE & RESULTS are maximal at BETA and DELTA.
The EP feels it’s his sole personal duty to force people to face the reality of how things suck and thus encourage them to make an effort to change things. Their methods are to personally concretely threaten people and to make caricatures of the actions and statements of others.

DEMOCRATIC, POSITIVIST, TACITURN & PROCESS are maximal at ALPHA and GAMMA.
The EP feels it’s his right to make suggestions for productive activity to the community. His methods are to use clever words or pure enthusiasm to motivate people.

RESOLUTE, CALCULATING, STRATEGIC & AGGRESSIVE are maximal at Se.
When a huge number of things are happening simultaneously the EP feels it’s best to take charge as a matter of course and to use all available resources to try to bend the situation to the EPs purpose. This is a case of outworking and outfighting the opposition. Little finesse or tricks are involved.

JUDICIOUSNESS, CAREFREE, TACTICAL, CHILDISH are maximal at Ne
When nothing is happening the EP is happy to spend time with thought experiments, figuring up dreams of what he’d like to do in the future and what he’d like to see happen around him. He’ll also test his wits against puzzles to prepare for coming challenges.

CHEERFUL, COMPLIANT & CONSTRUCT-CREATING are maximal at Ti.
In moments of danger the EP is resourceful, stubborn and driven but also passive, preferring to enjoy the heat of the moment and the rush of adrenaline. Simultaneously he is preparing to counter-attack and after the feeling of danger has passed he rushes to action to repeat the exhilaration of danger.

GRAVE, OBSTINATE & EMOTION-CREATING are maximal at Fi.
In moments of safety the EP is needy and willing to perform to others or act out to get the attention and cooperation he enjoys, but only the required amount to make him feel safe and confident.

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Originally Posted by Elena

How are you defining an EJ temperament?

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1. EJ – Extroverted rational (linear-vigorous temperament)

Energy exchange. Clearly noticeably expends energy. Usually gives all that he has. Works swiftly and intensively. As long as he has strength he recklessly wastes it. He uses up all of his energy and then collapses with exhaustion. There is no middle ground: either maximum usage of energy (sometimes close to maximum) or total inactivity.

Emotions and behavior. Straightforward, clear, rough/rigorous, no maneuvering. Not likely to have inner doubts or hesitation. They are sharp and implacable, and their actions are totally predictable. They often end up being the victims of the surroundings – non-dutiful other people, unstable situations and chaotic occurrences.

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EJ EJ EJ EJ EJ EJ EJ

A person to whom it is easiest to follow the rules of the environment.
TACITURN, PROCESS, ARISTOCRACY & NEGATIVISM are maximal at BETA and DELTA.
The EJ feels that it is his sole personal duty to actively try to perfect the functioning of his environment even without receiving personal reward out of it. It is not something he has chosen but something that has been pushed upon him. His methods are to charm people with words about values and dreams and to use great personal effort in situations of great inertia and passive resistance.

DEMOCRACY, POSITIVISM, NARRATIVE & RESULTS are maximal at ALFA and GAMMA.
The EJ feels that it is his right to be the person giving awards and congratulations in situations of happiness. It is a thing someone must do, so it might as well be him. His methods are to gently encourage and to praise and boast vocally.

CAREFREE, RESOLUTE, VICTIMIZED & STRATEGIC are maximal at Ni.
The EJ feels that when there is a huge number of things happening simultaneously it is best to pause to consider the situation, reserve your strength and wait until the situation clears and a pattern unfolds.

CALCULATING, JUDICIOUSNESS, TACTICAL & CAREFUL are maximal at Si.
The EJ feels that a period of calm and quiet is best used in preparation and plotting. Surplus personal resources are best spent in tools and investments.

COMPLIANCE, GRAVE & EMOTION-CREATING are maximal at Te.
The EJ feels that situations of safety are good for communal play and testing of social bonds.

OBSTINACY, CHEERFUL & CONSTRUCT-CREATING are maximal at Fe.
The EJ feels that situations of danger force bonds of loyalty and cooperation.

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Originally Posted by Elena

Why do you think I possess an EP temperament?

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I don't have a firm opinion on your temperament. I only said that your own limited descripion of your behaviour seemed to suggest EP rather than EJ. But surely I need more information than that to be sure of anything.

My main point, though, is that if you really are a 7 you MUST have an EP temperament, because every single 7 has an EP temperament. And that of course implies that no ENTj can ever be a 7. If, on the other hand, you really are an ENTj, you cannot have an EP temperament, and as a consequence you cannot be a 7.

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Originally Posted by Elena

I'm sure I am ENTj because I know I am primarily Te and Ni. My main interests lay economics, predicting market trends, hard sciences, understanding the mechanics of how things work, and observing cause&effect processes in general. I try to make sense of the world primarily based on an empirical outlook.

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What you say here naturally suggest ENTj as a possible type, but nothing there necessarily rules out ENTp as another candidate type. Predicting market trends is associated with Ni in Socionics, but Ne types can be good at that too, because it is more an N thing than specifically Ni. And "understanding the mechanics of how things work, and observing cause&effect processes in general" can be compared with how DarkAngelFireWolf69 describes the first (Cause-effect thinking) of his four styles of thinking in this article (though I'm not sure he is right in everything there): http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=12939

For example Lytov has also indicated in some posts in the past that the ENTp type would pretty well fit a description such as yours above.

The other things you say about yourself might be consistent with ENTj, but it certainly sound at least as much ENTp now. How do you determine that you are not an ENTp, based on the information you have provided here? You say that you "don't like stability and I hate lack of change", that you are "preoccupied with great visions of things I would like to accomplish or see done", that you are "always thinking of how things could be better, more optimized, and made more efficient", that "it always seems like I'm thinking 10 steps ahead of myself", that you "always must feel like [you're] advancing in some way, for to be content with the status quo is never enough", and that you "often [...] find [your]self a bit scattered" -- all of that is fully consistent with being an ENTp, and the most natural reaction would be to associate it with leading Ne.

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Originally Posted by Elena

Still not convinced? Of course you're not!

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You're right about that! I would probably place my bets on both ENTj and ENTp, and if those are the only possible types I am inclined to estimate the chances of you being the latter to about 60 %, based on the information I have. Surely you must have better arguments for ENTj than that?

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Originally Posted by Phaedrus

You're right about that!

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Wow. Phaedrus used emotionally expressive symbols.

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DEMOCRACY, POSITIVISM, NARRATIVE & RESULTS are maximal at ALFA and GAMMA.
The EJ feels that it is his right to be the person giving awards and congratulations in situations of happiness. It is a thing someone must do, so it might as well be him. His methods are to gently encourage and to praise and boast vocally.

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This is where EJs can be 7s. Easy, and all that there is to say.

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Originally Posted by FDG

This is where EJs can be 7s. Easy, and all that there is to say.

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You still haven't adequately addressed the EJ's unwillingness to accept reality as it is, and their power to change it. I mean literally change it. And why the 7 suddenly has an aversion to change, when their original type description is how they embrace change as part of the beauty of life. And why 7s would ever wish that someone else could take the helm in establishing contact with others. And why EPs, the typical 7s, would ever see other 7s as lacking in spontaneity. And none of the LIE common social roles even remotely fit how a 7 could be.

Anyway, how could a 7 spend their whole life working towards money and not enjoying life as it is? And you, Salawa, Elena and Ashton all claiming you're LIEs, so it's not even one or two rare cases. It's a load of 7s I know who think they're all LIEs. And they're all connected in some way. 7s wouldn't work so hard. They'd enjoy life in the moment! They're Artisans by nature. They'd feel like they were wasting their life and being boring bastards if they just worked all the time. They'd hate the short-term lack of comfort.

Come on Fabio. And Elena. And Salawa. You're all foolishly kidding yourself here, to fit in with your own typings. You're either 7s or LIEs; you can't be both.

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Originally Posted by Salawa

Out of interest, would you accept a typing of SEE/7 for Fabio?

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I could probably accept that as a last resort, but the case for SEE is still rather weak. To accept such a solution to the problem would have the consequence that he has been almost totally deluded and wrong about his correct type in the past. And is that really likely, do you think?

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Originally Posted by Ezra

You still haven't adequately addressed the EJ's unwillingness to accept reality as it is, and their power to change it. I mean literally change it. And why the 7 suddenly has an aversion to change, when their original type description is how they embrace change as part of the beauty of life. And why 7s would ever wish that someone else could take the helm in establishing contact with others. And why EPs, the typical 7s, would ever see other 7s as lacking in spontaneity. And none of the LIE common social roles even remotely fit how a 7 could be.

Anyway, how could a 7 spend their whole life working towards money and not enjoying life as it is? And you, Salawa, Elena and Ashton all claiming you're LIEs, so it's not even one or two rare cases. It's a load of 7s I know who think they're all LIEs. And they're all connected in some way. 7s wouldn't work so hard. They'd enjoy life in the moment! They're Artisans by nature. They'd feel like they were wasting their life and being boring bastards if they just worked all the time. They'd hate the short-term lack of comfort.

Come on Fabio. And Elena. And Salawa. You're all foolishly kidding yourself here, to fit in with your own typings. You're either 7s or LIEs; you can't be both.

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Blah blah blah. I disagree with all the description and think I'm right, basically, and nothing will make me change my mind on this, ever. So you can stop blabbering right now. I think western type descriptions are limited and if you look at the russian material you'll find how LIEs and 7s can match.

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Originally Posted by Salawa

As I personally think FDG is SEE, I wouldn't rule out his being "deluded" (though I probably wouldn't call it "delusion" per se).

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"Delusion" might be a too strong word, and I don't want to dabate words. But he would be seriously mistaken about his own type anyway, and I didn't think he was capable of making such a big mistake in these matters. If someone like FDG could be so mistaken, I won't even dare to imagine how many people might be mistyped on this forum.

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Originally Posted by Salawa

In some ways, you give people too much credit.

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Little pathetic shit when are you going to stop passive-aggresively insulting me, stupid blind follower of that Bitch with capitalized B which is Joy?

Who the fuck do you think you are? Don't you dare talk to her like that; she never did anything to you. You ARE deluded, you ignorant jackoff, and you deserve much worse than what she's giving you, so back the fuck up off her before I fly over there and asphyxiate you with a cannoli.

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Originally Posted by Gilly

Who the fuck do you think you are? Don't you dare talk to her like that; she never did anything to you. You ARE deluded, you ignorant jackoff, and you deserve much worse than what she's giving you, so back the fuck up off her before I fly over there and asphyxiate you with a cannoli.

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Uh uh, she called me deluded, and I'm not sitting here hearing insults without giving them back, man.

I can do what I want. If you wanna fly here and have a fight, come. I won't waste my time and money.

Fuck you, you're being deliberately hurtful to her when she's done nothing but give her honest opinion. She's not insulting you; it's your own fault if you take it personally, you foolish fuck.

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Originally Posted by Gilly

Fuck you, you're being deliberately hurtful to her when she's done nothing but give her honest opinion. She's not insulting you; it's your own fault if you take it personally, you foolish fuck.

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She's insulting in a passive-aggressive way, and it's been going on for quite some time now. She needs to stop subtly trying to undermine my ideas, and either come out in the open, or completely end the behavior.

LOL, nice Ne role you've got there. You couldn't find a less passive-aggressive person on this forum. She's saying exactly what she thinks of you; it's hardly her fault that the truth hurts so bad and undermines all of your precious ideas. Keep your paranoia to yourself.

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Originally Posted by Gilly

LOL, nice Ne role you've got there. You couldn't find a less passive-aggressive person on this forum. She's saying exactly what she thinks of you; it's hardly her fault that the truth hurts so bad and undermines all of your precious ideas. Keep your paranoia to yourself.

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Gilly, stop projecting. I'm not being paranoid, probably that's the least likely psychological problem that might affect me (sometimes unfortunately). I don't think it's the truth, otherwise I would have already changed my opinion. Please use something else to bug with your bad mood spell, thx.

Projecting? Sorry, you're going to have to clarify that one.

I never said you had paranoid personality disorder :lol: but I do think you're blatantly misinterpreting Tanehem's motives. She's not trying to offend you, she's just speaking her mind. It's not your business to get on your high horse and start accusing and insulting her just because you can't handle her being straightforward.

Deluded is an insult, Gilly, there isn't much you can argue about this. I won't waste any more time with this discussion.

Whatever, be insecure.

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Originally Posted by Salawa

So fucking retype me, then. :8*

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6 is evident. I'm unsure of your wing.

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Originally Posted by Salawa

Out of interest, would you accept a typing of SEE/7 for Fabio?

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Absolutely. IMAMOO, 7 and SEE fit best. Fabio knows he's a 7w8 - that does not need to be debated. However, Expat thinks SEE and has met him. And since he agrees with me, I'll use him to back up my claims that he is an SEE. Fabio has proved on countless occasions that he is adept in Se and Si, and I believe he is Te/Fi valuing (as this too has been shown to be true).

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Originally Posted by Phaedrus

I could probably accept that as a last resort, but the case for SEE is still rather weak.

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What do you think Fabio is?

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Originally Posted by FDG

Blah blah blah. I disagree with all the description and think I'm right, basically, and nothing will make me change my mind on this, ever. So you can stop blabbering right now. I think western type descriptions are limited and if you look at the russian material you'll find how LIEs and 7s can match.

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And this is why you have weak Te. You clearly value it though.

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Originally Posted by Ezra

6 is evident. I'm unsure of your wing.

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Told ya so! :P

Ezra, you're not the primary source of Te in the world, I think. It's equally as likely that I'm a Te type that thinks his Te is good enough to make his own decisions without your outside help (as opposed to needing help in it, which could signal its weakness).

Rofl @ weak Ne.

I really shouldn't be doing this; you're never going to wizen up if you think that it would put a smartass like me in the right.

Just like Diana.

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Originally Posted by Ezra

What do you think Fabio is?

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Extraverted. Nothing more than that is absolutely certain from my perspective. More likely logical than ethical, though.

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Originally Posted by Gilly

Rofl @ weak Ne.

I really shouldn't be doing this; you're never going to wizen up if you think that it would put a smartass like me in the right.

Just like Diana.

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I'm not really trying to avoid putting anybody in the right or anything...just replying to you, I'm not even getting fired up. I do see you always attributing some psychological motive to my actions that I don't feel I have.

pwned

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Originally Posted by Salawa

I think 5w6 sx/sp, actually.

(I've been reading Riso-Hudson books, good stuff).

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After hearing her explanation, I think this is a safe choice.

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Originally Posted by FDG

Ezra, you're not the primary source of Te in the world, I think. It's equally as likely that I'm a Te type that thinks his Te is good enough to make his own decisions without your outside help (as opposed to needing help in it, which could signal its weakness).

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I agree. I'm not a primary source of Te in the world; in other words, it is highly unlikely that I am. Hence, it is highly unlikely that you're a Te type that thinks his Te is good enough to make his own decisions without my outside help.

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Originally Posted by Salawa

Also -- wtf? This makes no sense whatsoever.

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He thinks you're Joy's suck up.