Analysis of Cognitive Processes
I'm going to analyse the cognitive processes (i.e. the functions used in MBTT) and compare them with their socionical counterparts. For the descriptions of the CPs, I used this site, which I believe adequately describes them. The reason for this exercise is to show how like or unlike MBTT functions are, thus aiding future attempts to correlate, or transfer one's MBTT type to one's socionics type if they are in a state of confusion about their type.
Te
Contingency planning, scheduling, and quantifying utilize the process of extraverted Thinking. Extraverted Thinking helps us organize our environment and ideas through charts, tables, graphs, flow charts, outlines, and so on. At its most sophisticated, this process is about organizing and monitoring people and things to work efficiently and productively. Empirical thinking is at the core of extraverted Thinking when we challenge someone’s ideas based on the logic of the facts in front of us or lay out reasonable explanations for decisions or conclusions made, often trying to establish order in someone else’s thought process. In written or verbal communication, extraverted Thinking helps us easily follow someone else’s logic, sequence, or organization. It also helps us notice when something is missing, like when someone says he or she is going to talk about four topics and talks about only three. In general, it allows us to compartmentalize many aspects of our lives so we can do what is necessary to accomplish our objectives.
Analysis: I've bolded what is essentially half of Extraverted Thinking in MBTT, for the simple reason that in socionics, it is not Te, but Ti. Augusta will illustrate this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augusta
When this element is in the leading position, the individual has the ability to logically evaluate interrelations of objective static reality, or the world of objects. He also the ability to change according to his desires the interrelations between the characteristics of various objects and hence influence the objects themselves that carry these characteristics. Correct evaluation of one's interrelations with other objects helps the individual know which objects should be avoided, and which can be "hunted." Such an individual is able to set his logic — or his knowledge of objectifiable reality, patterns, laws, and correlations of the objective world — in opposition to others' knowledge. He has the ability to mould and perfect not only his own knowledge of objectifiable reality, but also that of other people. This creates a feeling of power when clashing with other people's logic or lack thereof.
However, if you look at Augusta's Te, you will see that it may well correspond to the Te cognitive process to some degree:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augusta
When this element is in the leading position, the individual has the ability to [...] understand the logicalness and illogicalness of processes [...]. And the ability to apply personally and convey to others the most rational ways of doing things.
Generally though, I believe it corresponds more to Ti.
Ti
Introverted Thinking often involves finding just the right word to clearly express an idea concisely, crisply, and to the point. Using introverted Thinking is like having an internal sense of the essential qualities of something, noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is and then naming it. It also involves an internal reasoning process of deriving subcategories of classes and sub-principles of general principles. These can then be used in problem solving, analysis, and refining of a product or an idea. This process is evidenced in behaviors like taking things or ideas apart to figure out how they work. The analysis involves looking at different sides of an issue and seeing where there is inconsistency. In so doing, we search for a “leverage point” that will fix problems with the least amount of effort or damage to the system. We engage in this process when we notice logical inconsistencies between statements and frameworks, using a model to evaluate the likely accuracy of what’s observed.
Analysis: this is practically the same as Ti in socionics. It's what Phaedrus uses. He was clearly an INTP in MBTT, and then thought this could be transferrable to socionics, which is why he currently thinks he's an ILI.
Fe
The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The “social graces,” such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them. Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs. We may recognize and adhere to shared values, feelings, and social norms to get along.
Analysis: again, this is a spitting image of Fe in socionics.
Fi
It is often hard to assign words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images, feeling tones, and gut reactions more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and a patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life’s situations. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, “Sometimes, some things just have to be said.” On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions. It helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones.
Analysis: while I think this is the same as socionics Fi, I think it's a poor quality description, and doesn't adequately express many of the things related to Fi in socionical terms.
Se
Extraverted Sensing occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail. We may be drawn to act on what we experience to get an immediate result. We notice relevant facts and occurrences in a sea of data and experiences, learning all the facts we can about the immediate context or area of focus and what goes on in that context. An active seeking of more and more input to get the whole picture may occur until all sources of input have been exhausted or something else captures our attention. Extraverted Sensing is operating when we freely follow exciting physical impulses or instincts as they come up and enjoy the thrill of action in the present moment. A oneness with the physical world and a total absorption may exist as we move, touch, and sense what is around us. The process involves instantly reading cues to see how far we can go in a situation and still get the impact we want or respond to the situation with presence.
Analysis: with the exception of the bolded part (I don't really understand what is trying to be said here, but I don't think it's related to Se as we know it), I'd say this was socionics Se. Not in its entirety however, and this is important to note. It completely dismisses the idea of power mobilisation and awareness, will and external qualities (e.g. strength) of something. This is key - I repeat, key - to understanding socionics Se. This is what makes, for example, the ESTP so different to the SLE in MBTT.
Si
Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information*, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones. The immediate experience or words are instantly linked with the prior experiences, and we register a similarity or a difference—for example, noticing that some food doesn’t taste the same or is saltier than it usually is. Introverted Sensing is also operating when we see someone who reminds us of someone else. Sometimes a feeling associated with the recalled image comes into our awareness along with the information itself. Then the image can be so strong, our body responds as if reliving the experience. The process also involves reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience. With introverted Sensing, there is often great attention to detail and getting a clear picture of goals and objectives and what is to happen**. There can be a oneness with ageless customs that help sustain civilization and culture and protect what is known and long-lasting, even while what is reliable changes.
Analysis: this, to me, appears to be a mishmash of a few different socionics functions, Si included.
*Te or Ti
**Perhaps Ni
However, like Fi and Se, I don't think it adequately expresses the point of Si from a socionical point of view.
Ne
Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality. Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and threads together. We don’t know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts. Thus a strategy or concept often emerges from the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand. Using this process we can really appreciate brainstorming and trust what emerges, enjoying imaginative play with scenarios and combining possibilities, using a kind of cross-contextual thinking. Extraverted iNtuiting also can involve catalyzing people and extemporaneously shaping situations, spreading an atmosphere of change through emergent leadership.
Analysis: this is Ne as it is in socionics. The only thing it might need to place more emphasis on is an aptitude for noticing the hidden potential of people.
Ni
Introverted iNtuiting involves synthesizing the seemingly paradoxical or contradictory, which takes understanding to a new level. Using this process, we can have moments when completely new, unimagined realizations come to us. A disengagement from interactions in the room occurs, followed by a sudden “Aha!” or “That’s it!” The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future. Using this process, we might rely on a focal device or symbolic action to predict, enlighten, or transform. We could find ourselves laying out how the future will unfold based on unseen trends and telling signs. This process can involve working out complex concepts or systems of thinking or conceiving of symbolic or novel ways to understand things that are universal. It can lead to creating transcendent experiences or solutions.
Analysis: I think this, too, is Ni. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but the bolded bits appear a bit like Ne to me.
Re: Analysis of Cognitive Processes
First off, let me extend ze kudos for an excellent topic. I'm less certain about how the outcome may turn out, but it sounds like an exceptional exercise (particularly for beginners such as me). I am however going to constrain my responses only to the few functions I understand and humbly listen to what everyone else has to say qua the rest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Fi
It is often hard to assign words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images, feeling tones, and gut reactions more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and a patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life’s situations. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, “Sometimes, some things just have to be said.” On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions. It helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones.
Analysis: while I think this is the same as socionics Fi, I think it's a poor quality description, and doesn't adequately express many of the things related to Fi in socionical terms.
I think the Fi description is roughly analogous, though it does throw me off that (even as subjective as it may be) there isn't more emphasis on the function as a rational enterprise. Maybe that's an inadequate expression of what I'm trying to convey. It does express the sort of holism and coherency that's there between values. Perhaps it's putting it in terms of 'gut' feelings. I can kind of relate in that this is sort of how things begin, though IME these can be richly developed into principles or rules of thumb that guide action (yet also accepting that these are only 'rough', that there is always something essential that can't be captured). In that respect, I do think that the focus on Fi as it is expressed is the right direction. I'm not saying that this is the natural or inevitable path of things, but I'd be refuting myself if I denied even the possibility. The assessment of others part I think is good. Returning to the rational POV, this is the 'making sense' of another human being, of trying to vicariously experience their own world and fit all the disparate pieces into a coherent, understandable whole, in the sense of how one feels and what one desires or holds dear affects one's thinking and action.
Re: Analysis of Cognitive Processes
Quote:
Originally Posted by munenori2
First off, let me extend ze kudos for an excellent topic. I'm less certain about how the outcome may turn out, but it sounds like an exceptional exercise (particularly for beginners such as me). I am however going to constrain my responses only to the few functions I understand and humbly listen to what everyone else has to say qua the rest.
You take +Fe/-Fi to a new level. Maybe you're INTp? I'm really curious to know your type; because your politeness is vomit inducing.
Re: Analysis of Cognitive Processes
Re: Analysis of Cognitive Processes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitta
Quote:
Originally Posted by munenori2
First off, let me extend ze kudos for an excellent topic. I'm less certain about how the outcome may turn out, but it sounds like an exceptional exercise (particularly for beginners such as me). I am however going to constrain my responses only to the few functions I understand and humbly listen to what everyone else has to say qua the rest.
You take +Fe/-Fi to a new level. Maybe you're INTp? I'm really curious to know your type; because your politeness is vomit inducing.
He's INFj. Barring that, he's creative Fe. I don't see any other possibilities than that, and Ne subtype INFj is the most likely.
totally agree. totally reminds me of my infj dad. even looks like my did when he was young.
Re: Analysis of Cognitive Processes
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitta
You take +Fe/-Fi to a new level. Maybe you're INTp? I'm really curious to know your type; because your politeness is vomit inducing.
:lol: :lol: :wink:
You mean like that Family Guy scene where they all drink epikak?
Re: Analysis of Cognitive Processes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Te
Contingency planning, scheduling, and quantifying utilize the process of extraverted Thinking. Extraverted Thinking helps us organize our environment and ideas through charts, tables, graphs, flow charts, outlines, and so on. At its most sophisticated, this process is about organizing and monitoring people and things to work efficiently and productively.
Empirical thinking is at the core of extraverted Thinking when we challenge someone’s ideas based on the logic of the facts in front of us or lay out reasonable explanations for decisions or conclusions made, often trying to establish order in someone else’s thought process. In written or verbal communication, extraverted Thinking helps us easily follow someone else’s logic, sequence, or organization. It also helps us notice when something is missing, like when someone says he or she is going to talk about four topics and talks about only three. In general, it allows us to compartmentalize many aspects of our lives so we can do what is necessary to accomplish our objectives.
Analysis: I've bolded what is essentially half of Extraverted Thinking in MBTT, for the simple reason that in socionics, it is not Te, but Ti. Augusta will illustrate this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augusta
When this element is in the leading position, the individual has the ability to logically evaluate interrelations of objective static reality, or the world of objects. He also the ability to change according to his desires the interrelations between the characteristics of various objects and hence influence the objects themselves that carry these characteristics. Correct evaluation of one's interrelations with other objects helps the individual know which objects should be avoided, and which can be "hunted." Such an individual is able to set his logic — or his knowledge of objectifiable reality, patterns, laws, and correlations of the objective world — in opposition to others' knowledge. He has the ability to mould and perfect not only his own knowledge of objectifiable reality, but also that of other people. This creates a feeling of power when clashing with other people's logic or lack thereof.
However, if you look at Augusta's Te, you will see that it may well correspond to the Te cognitive process to some degree:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augusta
When this element is in the leading position, the individual has the ability to [...] understand the logicalness and illogicalness of processes [...]. And the ability to apply personally and convey to others the most rational ways of doing things.
Generally though, I believe it corresponds more to Ti.
It is more Ti, but Te dominants (or even Te-ego) will identify to it to a large extent. It speaks of "abilities", which is not helpful when trying to set Te and Ti apart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Ti
Introverted Thinking often involves finding just the right word to clearly express an idea concisely, crisply, and to the point. Using introverted Thinking is like having an internal sense of the essential qualities of something, noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is and then naming it. It also involves an internal reasoning process of deriving subcategories of classes and sub-principles of general principles. These can then be used in problem solving, analysis, and refining of a product or an idea. This process is evidenced in behaviors like taking things or ideas apart to figure out how they work. The analysis involves looking at different sides of an issue and seeing where there is inconsistency. In so doing, we search for a “leverage point” that will fix problems with the least amount of effort or damage to the system. We engage in this process when we notice logical inconsistencies between statements and frameworks, using a model to evaluate the likely accuracy of what’s observed.
Analysis: this is practically the same as Ti in socionics. It's what Phaedrus uses. He was clearly an INTP in MBTT, and then thought this could be transferrable to socionics, which is why he currently thinks he's an ILI.
It is close to Ti in socionics, but it's not complete, I think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Fe
The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The “social graces,” such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them. Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs. We may recognize and adhere to shared values, feelings, and social norms to get along.
Analysis: again, this is a spitting image of Fe in socionics.
NO. This is a source of a great deal of confusion, and lots of mistypings. This is very skewed towards Fe + Si, that is, Alpha Fe, and Betas would not identify easily with it, if at all.
The above is incomplete, it's at best a description of half the aspects of Fe. To be complete, it would have to include references to "being passionate" etc. A Beta NF type may very well read that and go "no way".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Fi
It is often hard to assign words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images, feeling tones, and gut reactions more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and a patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life’s situations. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, “Sometimes, some things just have to be said.” On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions. It helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones.
Analysis: while I think this is the same as socionics Fi, I think it's a poor quality description, and doesn't adequately express many of the things related to Fi in socionical terms.
Yes, I agree with your analysis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Se
Extraverted Sensing occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail. We may be drawn to act on what we experience to get an immediate result. We notice relevant facts and occurrences in a sea of data and experiences, learning all the facts we can about the immediate context or area of focus and what goes on in that context. An active seeking of more and more input to get the whole picture may occur until all sources of input have been exhausted or something else captures our attention. Extraverted Sensing is operating when we freely follow exciting physical impulses or instincts as they come up and enjoy the thrill of action in the present moment. A oneness with the physical world and a total absorption may exist as we move, touch, and sense what is around us. The process involves instantly reading cues to see how far we can go in a situation and still get the impact we want or respond to the situation with presence.
Analysis: with the exception of the bolded part (I don't really understand what is trying to be said here, but I don't think it's related to Se as we know it), I'd say this was socionics Se. Not in its entirety however, and this is important to note. It completely dismisses the idea of power mobilisation and awareness, will and external qualities (e.g. strength) of something. This is key - I repeat, key - to understanding socionics Se. This is what makes, for example, the ESTP so different to the SLE in MBTT.
No, I disagree. That's not Se as such. It's a similar problem to the "Te" description above. This "Se" description is something that both Si dominants and Se dominants could agree on. As you said, it ignores the "power statics" aspect, so I'd say is far more relevent for Si than for Se. You relate well to it because you also have strong Si.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Si
Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information*, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones. The immediate experience or words are instantly linked with the prior experiences, and we register a similarity or a difference—for example, noticing that some food doesn’t taste the same or is saltier than it usually is. Introverted Sensing is also operating when we see someone who reminds us of someone else. Sometimes a feeling associated with the recalled image comes into our awareness along with the information itself. Then the image can be so strong, our body responds as if reliving the experience. The process also involves reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience. With introverted Sensing, there is often great attention to detail and getting a clear picture of goals and objectives and what is to happen**. There can be a oneness with ageless customs that help sustain civilization and culture and protect what is known and long-lasting, even while what is reliable changes.
Analysis: this, to me, appears to be a mishmash of a few different socionics functions, Si included.
I fully agree with your analysis. An interesting question is why the author thought that all of that was Introverted Sensing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Ne
Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality. Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and threads together. We don’t know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts. Thus a strategy or concept often emerges from the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand. Using this process we can really appreciate brainstorming and trust what emerges, enjoying imaginative play with scenarios and combining possibilities, using a kind of cross-contextual thinking. Extraverted iNtuiting also can involve catalyzing people and extemporaneously shaping situations, spreading an atmosphere of change through emergent leadership.
Analysis: this is Ne as it is in socionics. The only thing it might need to place more emphasis on is an aptitude for noticing the hidden potential of people.
Not quite. There is much Ne there, yes, but apart from what you noticed, the last sentence it's actually ENFj, Fe + Ni. Not Ne as such. Which of course doesn't mean that Ne dominants can't do it; as always, that's not the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Ni
Introverted iNtuiting involves synthesizing the seemingly paradoxical or contradictory, which takes understanding to a new level. Using this process, we can have moments when completely new, unimagined realizations come to us. A disengagement from interactions in the room occurs, followed by a sudden “Aha!” or “That’s it!” The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future. Using this process, we might rely on a focal device or symbolic action to predict, enlighten, or transform. We could find ourselves laying out how the future will unfold based on unseen trends and telling signs. This process can involve working out complex concepts or systems of thinking or conceiving of symbolic or novel ways to understand things that are universal. It can lead to creating transcendent experiences or solutions.
Analysis: I think this, too, is Ni. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but the bolded bits appear a bit like Ne to me.
That's Ni-as-glorified-by-Ashton :lol: . It's Beta Ni, that is, Ni without Te. And no, the bolded bits are not particularly Ne.