The pathetic hidden agenda

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11-28-2007, 03:14 PM
Expat

The pathetic hidden agenda

The focus on one's hidden agenda is also manifested in a "patting yourself on the back" way, when you are reassuring others that you are actually good in doing something, but it's painfully obvious to others that you are above all reassuring yourself and not doing a good job at it - and by doing that, you end up behaving in a pathetic way.

So:

:Fe: : behavior aimed at showing how popular and liked by the crowd you are, but that is actually making you look like an ass.

:Ti: : unshakeable and stubborn defense of ideas and beliefs against all opposition, with unwillingness to even discuss the possibility of their not being correct

:Fi: unshakeable and stubborn unwillingness to compromise on personal behavior and principles against all opposition in a social situation

:Te: : behavior aimed at showing how competent you are in handling practical and financial affairs, or in how much knowledge in a particular subject you have, but painfully focusing on non-essentials to the point made

:Ni: : unshakeable belief that you know exactly what is going to happen in your life in a given situation, or precipitated action since you know that "now is the time to act", but ending up shooting your own foot in both cases

:Se: : behavior aimed at showing how successful, rich, or physically strong and brave and confrontational you are, when others can see you're none of them

:Si: : showing off how wiser you are than others in taking care of your health by good food and avoiding personal risks, but making you look like a paranoid pussy-wimp. Also, an essentially unphysical person trying to show off how they master daily details in administration, maintainance, housekeeping, etc

:Ne: : behavior aiming at showing how original and creative you can be, but making too much out of obvious and trivial ideas.

So if you see someone behaving in a pathetic way, just remember -- on other occasions, it's you doing it.
11-28-2007, 03:33 PM
aut0

It looks like you put a little more effort into Si. :lol:
11-28-2007, 05:48 PM
inumbra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hostage_Child

The Ne hidden agenda is the one that pisses me off to no end with endless suggestions and speculations over the most obvious crap or trying to relate two wholly unrelated concepts to the other (sorry I can't provide examples right now).

sigh... that irks/infuriates me as well...
11-28-2007, 05:52 PM
BLauritson

@Expat: Do you have any examples of the :Fi: one? I can't think of any situations where this has occurred to me.. well, I've got a vague recollection of an older situation where this might be the case but I can't remember enough details to make anything of it.
11-28-2007, 05:59 PM
discojoe

The Fi Hidden Agenda is REALLY annoying in ISTps.
11-28-2007, 06:00 PM
Joy

hmmm

Yes, I think you're correct. I also think that one's Hidden Agenda is apparent in their motivations and decisions, usually in a good way. While people make idiots of themselves when they're overly confident in their Hidden Agenda, they're not always like that.

Perhaps it looks the worst to people from other quadras, particularly people with your Hidden Agenda in their super ego block? Just a thought.
11-28-2007, 06:02 PM
Expat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loki

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hostage_Child

The Ne hidden agenda is the one that pisses me off to no end with endless suggestions and speculations over the most obvious crap or trying to relate two wholly unrelated concepts to the other (sorry I can't provide examples right now).

sigh... that irks/infuriates me as well...

Interesting that you chose Ne as the one that annoys you the most, because it's what your conflictors and supervisees do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLauritson

@Expat: Do you have any examples of the :Fi: one? I can't think of any situations where this has occurred to me.. well, I've got a vague recollection of an older situation where this might be the case but I can't remember enough details to make anything of it.

Perhaps niffweed17 in the context of the Dioklecian story.
11-28-2007, 06:04 PM
discojoe

What I do with my HA (in a social setting) is just admit that I don't know, or say, "Well, lot's of things could happen" And then let someone else make a suggestion, so if we fail or are wrong it's on them.

However, I think the HA can also be a strength, an area where you are much more thorough than others and can find yourself well-prepared if something goes wrong.
11-28-2007, 06:14 PM
Ms. Kensington

i chose Ne, Ni and Te HAs as the most annoying to me.

I think it's interesting that I am not as annoyed with a Ti HA as with the others I listed. It's annoying but does elicit a feeling of being sorry for that person more than being truly annoyed.
11-28-2007, 06:16 PM
Expat

Quote:

Originally Posted by discojoe

What I do with my HA (in a social setting) is just admit that I don't know, or say, "Well, lot's of things could happen" And then let someone else make a suggestion, so if we fail or are wrong it's on them.

However, I think the HA can also be a strength, an area where you are much more thorough than others and can find yourself well-prepared if something goes wrong.

Yes but then you're not being pathetic, you're aware of your weakness in it and avoiding focusing on it too much.
11-28-2007, 06:24 PM
discojoe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Expat

Quote:

Originally Posted by discojoe

What I do with my HA (in a social setting) is just admit that I don't know, or say, "Well, lot's of things could happen" And then let someone else make a suggestion, so if we fail or are wrong it's on them.

However, I think the HA can also be a strength, an area where you are much more thorough than others and can find yourself well-prepared if something goes wrong.

Yes but then you're not being pathetic, you're aware of your weakness in it and avoiding focusing on it too much.

Yeah.
11-28-2007, 06:28 PM
Minde

Re: The pathetic hidden agenda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Expat

:Si: : showing off how wiser you are than others in taking care of your health by good food and avoiding personal risks, but making you look like a paranoid pussy-wimp. Also, an essentially unphysical person trying to show off how they master daily details in administration, maintainance, housekeeping, etc.

Something about the bolded phrasing seems a little grammatically off to me... A "much" between the "how" and "wiser" would make it feel better, but I'm not sure if it's technically required.

Anyway, :Si: is my HA, right? The first part is closest to accuracy in my case. However, I know I stink at administration and maintenance so there's no attempts at showing off there. :lol:

The Fe one is the most annoying to me. Ne can be a little annoying, too.
11-28-2007, 06:28 PM
BLauritson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Expat

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLauritson

@Expat: Do you have any examples of the :Fi: one? I can't think of any situations where this has occurred to me.. well, I've got a vague recollection of an older situation where this might be the case but I can't remember enough details to make anything of it.

Perhaps niffweed17 in the context of the Dioklecian story.

Ah, I think I understand. I'm not really aware of myself doing this nowadays, although I was a lot more stubborn when I was younger. I think I've just found it easier to be more flexible as I've got older.
11-28-2007, 06:36 PM
snegledmaca

Re: The pathetic hidden agenda

I am the opposite of :Ti: hidden agenda. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what is commonly described as a :Ne: PoLR? Inability/unwillingness to deal with multiple possibilities/points of view?

The thing that fits me best is :Fi: HA as that such thing has happened on too many occasions to count. And I am constantly criticized for the :Ne: HA thing.
11-28-2007, 06:40 PM
Blaze

huh guess that's why i don't try to organize parties and such....
11-28-2007, 06:55 PM
Expat

Re: The pathetic hidden agenda

Quote:

Originally Posted by snegledmaca

I am the opposite of :Ti: hidden agenda. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what is commonly described as a :Ne: PoLR? Inability/unwillingness to deal with multiple possibilities/points of view?

Not exactly, but I need more time to put together a description of how I see this. Good point.
11-28-2007, 07:20 PM
Mea

Re: The pathetic hidden agenda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Expat

The focus on one's hidden agenda is also manifested in a "patting yourself on the back" way, when you are reassuring others that you are actually good in doing something, but it's painfully obvious to others that you are above all reassuring yourself and not doing a good job at it - and by doing that, you end up behaving in a pathetic way.

:Te: : behavior aimed at showing how competent you are in handling practical and financial affairs, or in how much knowledge in a particular subject you have, but painfully focusing on non-essentials to the point made

So if you see someone behaving in a pathetic way, just remember -- on other occasions, it's you doing it.

This is reason why I feel that HA hits are the most painful. You're trying your best to be good at it. And if you get critisized it hurts more.

That description is painfully accurate. *sigh*
11-28-2007, 07:54 PM
Phaedrus

Re: The pathetic hidden agenda

Quote:

Originally Posted by snegledmaca

The thing that fits me best is :Fi: HA as that such thing has happened on too many occasions to count.

Of course. Exactly as expected.
11-28-2007, 08:00 PM
snegledmaca

Re: The pathetic hidden agenda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaedrus

Quote:

Originally Posted by snegledmaca

The thing that fits me best is :Fi: HA as that such thing has happened on too many occasions to count.

Of course. Exactly as expected.

Why do you still harbor that idea? I'm not gamma. Let it go.

EDIT: Don't make me show you my Hidden agenda! :lol:
11-28-2007, 08:06 PM
Phaedrus

Re: The pathetic hidden agenda

Quote:

Originally Posted by snegledmaca

Why do you still harbor that idea? I'm not gamma. Let it go.

It's impossible for me to ignore how you describe yourself as a person. Almost everything you say points clearly in that direction, and the theory of Socionics is quite clear on what type someone with your profile is. It is not my fault. Blame Socionics instead.
11-28-2007, 08:14 PM
snegledmaca

Oh no, I'm quite comfortable blaming you. I've sufficiently twisted socionics in my favor.
11-28-2007, 08:26 PM
Phaedrus

Quote:

Originally Posted by snegledmaca

I've sufficiently twisted socionics in my favor.

You certainly have.
11-28-2007, 08:28 PM
snegledmaca

Do I detect a hint of disapproval of it?
11-28-2007, 09:00 PM
Ezra

Quote:

Originally Posted by discojoe

The Fi Hidden Agenda is REALLY annoying in ISTps.

AHAHAHA. Your picture is fucking amazing.
11-28-2007, 09:00 PM
Minde

Question: Couldn't most of this apply to the dual seeking function, too?

When reading through them, the first person I thought of for the Fi one was you, Expat, honestly. And I can see myself acting just as foolishly with either Te or Si. Same for my ENFp sister.
11-28-2007, 09:14 PM
Expat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minde

Question: Couldn't most of this apply to the dual seeking function, too?

When reading through them, the first person I thought of for the Fi one was you, Expat, honestly. And I can see myself acting just as foolishly with either Te or Si. Same for my ENFp sister.

That's exactly what I've been getting at.

Generally disliked people - or who act in a way to make them disliked, except by their identicals and duals - is when they are being overbearing in their super-id use.

Generally liked people - even by their conflictors - are those who use mainly their ego, or perhaps also their id.
11-28-2007, 09:20 PM
aestrivex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Expat

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLauritson

@Expat: Do you have any examples of the :Fi: one? I can't think of any situations where this has occurred to me.. well, I've got a vague recollection of an older situation where this might be the case but I can't remember enough details to make anything of it.

Perhaps niffweed17 in the context of the Dioklecian story.

yeah, i was going to say that the Fi description sounds perfect for me, and not only with regards to that fiasco.
11-28-2007, 09:25 PM
Minde

Quote:

Originally Posted by Expat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minde

Question: Couldn't most of this apply to the dual seeking function, too?

When reading through them, the first person I thought of for the Fi one was you, Expat, honestly. And I can see myself acting just as foolishly with either Te or Si. Same for my ENFp sister.

That's exactly what I've been getting at.

Generally disliked people - or who act in a way to make them disliked, except by their identicals and duals - is when they are being overbearing in their super-id use.

Generally liked people - even by their conflictors - are those who use mainly their ego, or perhaps also their id.

Ok...

:lol:

That's good. And I suppose it does all tie together nicely like that. I was just talking about how you said these were what HA looks like. I was simply asking if/saying that it can look like dual seeking, too. As in, mirrors are likely to look foolish in similar ways. Or, if there's a distinguishable difference.

I'm not exactly sure we're on the same page, but I'm glad you got something useful out of that.
11-28-2007, 09:31 PM
aestrivex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Expat

Generally disliked people - or who act in a way to make them disliked, except by their identicals and duals - is when they are being overbearing in their super-id use.

Generally liked people - even by their conflictors - are those who use mainly their ego, or perhaps also their id.

this i would dispute. general popularity is a function of much more than something as simplistic as function usage.
11-28-2007, 09:50 PM
Expat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hostage_Child

I think it has to do with our HA being the other's ignoring function which we are strong at but don't take it too seriously where it is annoying to see someone bastardize it and semi-obsess over it to someone who sees the bastardization and wishes the other person would shut up about it or get a grip over themselves since they do not even remotely share the other person's over-interest.

Yes, pretty much. Not only the other person is obsessing about something we see as unimportant, they're also being incompetent about it.
11-28-2007, 09:55 PM
Minde

Will somebody please answer or address my question?

Descriptions of HA in this thread - interchangeable with dual seeking? Yes? No? Partly?

A short answer will do just as well as a long one.
11-28-2007, 09:57 PM
Gilly

Possible Role function behavior as well.
11-28-2007, 09:58 PM
Minde

So... yes?
11-28-2007, 10:27 PM
Gilly

I dunno, I think we're a little sneakier about our HA because we're not as confident in it, but somewhat similar...perhaps.
11-28-2007, 10:39 PM
Subteigh

I relate to the Fe and Si hidden agendas, but in different situations:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Expat

:Fe: : behavior aimed at showing how popular and liked by the crowd you are, but that is actually making you look like an ass.

^ I don't like it when I can tell people think I'm being an ass when I'm saying they can't do something because 'it's wrong' or because 'it won't work'. So, it feels like I often lighten the mood by going on rants about how you shouldn't eat vegetables because they are people too - I deliberately try to act neurotic. Could this be a Fe HA, or is it just some :Fi: :Ne: Ego type thing :o :P?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Expat

:Si: : showing off how wiser you are than others in taking care of your health by good food and avoiding personal risks, but making you look like a paranoid pussy-wimp. Also, an essentially unphysical person trying to show off how they master daily details in administration, maintainance, housekeeping, etc

I eat rather poorly, and I make jokes about this - but I also tend to make fun out of other people's diets too, and try to act knowledgeable, e.g suggesting that they eat bamboo shoots because 'everybody else is'. I think people think I'm a paranoid pussy-wimp when I complain about them smoking, but I tend not to complain further if they already know what I think :) (I usually have a mournful expression that possibly reminds them too). I do tend to avoid personal risks, but if I'm on an adventure holiday, I can usually look bolder than everyone else because I'm pretty confident that there isn't likely to be much real risk (because it is supervised, and the place might have being doing these trips for decades). But, really, I'm scared of typing too much in case I get arthritis. I should possibly drink less tea and coffee too so that I don't get Alzheimer's disease.

Also:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Expat

:Te: : behavior aimed at showing how competent you are in handling practical and financial affairs, or in how much knowledge in a particular subject you have, but painfully focusing on non-essentials to the point made

I like to show great knowledge in order to cover the fact I'm not actually very skillful at anything. I also like to reveal irrelevant details, possibly to wow people, or possibly to make me seem interesting, rather than sounding like I am reciting from an encyclopedia - this is similar to my reaction to the Fe HA - I often deliberately (rather than accidently, though I guess that can happen) focus on non-essential details.
11-28-2007, 10:51 PM
Ezra

Re: The pathetic hidden agenda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Expat

:Ti: : unshakeable and stubborn defense of ideas and beliefs against all opposition, with unwillingness to even discuss the possibility of their not being correct

You mean Phaedrus.

Ti and Te HA annoy me most.
11-28-2007, 11:46 PM
krieger

I don't quite agree with the spirit that this thread is written in. We should be encouraging people to develop their HA instead of ridiculing people who make the attempt. If everyone has an HA anyway, why not be proud of our own?

Ti HA seems to me to be more about making "final judgments" when very little preliminary thinking has been done.

An ISFp that I know exhibits this kind of behavior a lot. One instance that I can call to mind was him reactively saying that the question "can animals feel pain?" was useless to ask in philosophy.

In itself this would be healthy Ti behavior... A type that is actually strong in Ti receives this kind of input all the time. What makes accepting Ti types different, is that besides getting this particular idea about the question, they'd be able to see a great variëty of alternative ideas as well, thus relativating the statement, for example by noticing the ethical implications of the question, the societal value of solving the problem, how it is possible to form inductive ideas on the topic even when deduction fails, etc.
11-28-2007, 11:51 PM
Gilly

Re: The pathetic hidden agenda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herzy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Expat

:Fe: : behavior aimed at showing how popular and liked by the crowd you are, but that is actually making you look like an ass.

I cringed when I saw that because I relate to it all too well. :oops:

Bleah, no kidding...sometimes just when you think you have the group under sway, you say something and they look at you like you've got a giraffe poking its head out your ass.
11-28-2007, 11:53 PM
aestrivex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minde

Descriptions of HA in this thread - interchangeable with dual seeking? Yes? No? Partly?

A short answer will do just as well as a long one.

i would doubt it. maybe interchangeable on some level, but i can think of numerous examples where these descriptions work for HA, but not so with dual-seeking.
11-28-2007, 11:55 PM
Wittmont

Quote:

Originally Posted by labcoat

I don't quite agree with the spirit that this thread is written in. We should be encouraging people to develop their HA instead of ridiculing people who make the attempt. If everyone has an HA anyway, why not be proud of our own?

Ti HA seems to me to be more about making "final judgments" when very little preliminary thinking has been done.

An ISFp that I know exhibits this kind of behavior a lot. One instance that I can call to mind was him reactively saying that the question "can animals feel pain?" was useless to ask in philosophy.

In itself this would be healthy Ti behavior... A type that is actually strong in Ti receives this kind of input all the time. What makes accepting Ti types different, is that besides getting this particular idea about the question, they'd be able to see a great variëty of alternative ideas as well, thus relativating the statement, for example by noticing the ethical implications of the question, the societal value of solving the problem, how it is possible to form inductive ideas on the topic even when deduction fails, etc.

I think it is a good thread. It made me think that maybe the HA isn't as straightforward as I had previous thought, and that it has a shadow dimension too.

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