How does :Ne: (polr) manifest in an LSI? The description in wikisocion states that the LSI is over skeptical or over estimates his/her ability when attempting new things. Is it this what makes LSIs putatively more "conservative" than other types? - As they can seem unconfident when trying new things because as they understand it:- they cannot judge easily their ability to the task because it requires something they don't have?
Well, does it make sense to you?
I will give you a practical example. I have an LSI classmate which is on top of the class, perfect scores in all subjects. Yet, when in an exam comes up something that hasn't been treated extensively either during the lectures, or by the book, he is skeptical of his ability to deal with the situation. Skeptical is a key word because when he tries, he's correct more often than not.
:Ne: polr means LSI are reckless and unable to evaluate risks...
besides, :Ne: polr make LSI unimaginative and narrow-minded...
I think LSIs' so-called "conservatism" exists only when looking at them through :Ne: -dominant eyes. That label isn't very applicable in real life when you get outside of :Ne: -valuing quadras, in my opinion. Look at IEE and SEEs' conservatism in :Ti: matters, for instance. Same with any type and their 4th function.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_maguoo
The phrase you mention from Wikisocion doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but I just clarified other parts of it and added some new things.
I'm having problems defining my polr too, but I think this is very true.Quote:
Originally Posted by wikisocion
It seems like they have trouble reacting to "the unexpected" and situations that change rapidly or involve complex interaction between a host of variables in one change. If you threw an istj into a chaotic environment for example, one in which people were constantly changing their minds or shifting the logic by which they were reasoning, then an istj would have trouble keeping up. It seems like istjs make very strong associations between two given things and it can be very difficult/stressful when those associations are shattered and they are forced to reconstitute them.
Lack of flexibility.
"I know we usually do it this way, but let's do it this other way today and see how that goes." LSIs will not react well.
True, they are more of the "There can only be one right way, the tested and tried way" persuasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
What most people don't appreciate is that we'll only react badly if the new way of doing something doesn't fit with :Ti: . If we can appreciate the logic then we'll go along albeit cautiously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
And where it doesn't fit :Ti: - It doesn't necessitate a fit of :Fe: inspired anger and dramatism. We're more likely to cringe, if in a professional environment or we don't know the other people too well or if its over a minor detail. Remember LSIs can appreciate the big picture.
Actually, Herz, he's not far off. They are certainly single-minded when it comes to doing something. If Ne is about possibilities, what is devalue of and weakness in it about? Perhaps unimaginative is too harsh an adjective. Perhaps to an IEE they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herzy
As for recklessness, I see this as directly contradictive to their Ti. To what risk evaluation inability is related I don't know.
Best description of the LSI :Ne: PoLR I've read so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by HollywoodWanderer
I have a lot of real life experience and interaction with a fair number of LSIs, and all of them very close & personal. I have never once thought they were "unimaginative" or "inflexible" - wtf? Why does everyone think :Ne: has something to do with being an imaginative, flexible person (in other words, open-minded & fun) .. blegh! Doing projects together even, they always have great ideas and are open to my suggestions as well. We brainstorm a lot, there is nothing in there that would cause me to think - oh yikes, how come this LSI is not wanting to take a new route/direction? Actually, I think the truth is that since I get along with them in terms of Ni/Se, we sort of weed out through numerous possibilities to seriously consider just a couple. What I think :Ne: dominants perceive as being "inflexible" would be maybe them not liking if too many ideas were thrown around with nothing getting done, nothing being chosen. It's not that they are averse to new ways of doing things, I think that they just want to settle with something that will most likely work.
Anyhow, this relates to what is said above by the other poster. They do react badly to unexpected situations, and I think this is because they just have no idea of where it might lead. They need someone to direct them onto the "best" road. If there is something out of the blue that happens to them, their minds most likely run in a million different directions, creating confusion.
I have seen my best LSI friends do this quite a bit. Especially in romantic situations - they can't handle it if you spring something on them out of the blue. It just seems too random, "wrong" in a sense. For example, my friend was just told by an old childhood friend that he likes her, etc. ... she has liked him quite a lot in the past but can't see him that way anymore for some reason, and she keeps mentioning the fact that it seems to sudden, too strange for him to say his feelings like that so directly. She basically doesn't know how to react and doesn't want to abruptly change the state of their relationship because that would cause too many random possibilities you know?
Risk evaluation is related to Intuition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
:Ne: PoLR makes LSI overly careful and somewhat distrustful of certain things. if something has been proven to be defective in some way in the past, then they will surely not attempt it again. LSI adapt to their PoLR by following very strict procedures. they might seem reckless at times but that's only in matters which they fully master (and therefore their recklessness might be perceived as such by someone who has no clue about :Se: ) and doesn't require the use of much :Ne: . it is SLE who tend to be reckless because their :Ne: role leads them to overestimate their capabilities. they sometimes view :Ne: as irrelevant which might cause them to make mistakes.
Two possible ISTjs I work with (one might be ISFj) have trouble letting events loosely unfold. They would argue its a function of their position in leadership, but to me it appears as a personality thing. They are very uncomfortable with the idea that A -> B is not a binary state, but might unfold as A -> whirl around D for a bit -> end up at C which is not B though the two are functionally the same and ~ objective accomplished. It is difficult to convince them that things which are not guarenteed are worth trying, especially when a longer, less efficient, but guarenteed process exists.
This has lead to some conflict as the one will tentatively agree to a plan of action, and then I fucking kid you not, will be arguing for the exact opposite two minutes later.
i think Ne polr is a lack of opennes to new ideas which have not been proven or which have a limited amount of facts and data to back them up. LSI doesn't want to try new things because this would vibe the Fi role function. LSI likes to fit in with the relational mainstream and not stick out too much, so if the idea shakes up relationships in any major way, they are not going to support it. if the LSI perceives that there would be a problem with the new idea according to the power base that creative Se perceives, then they are also going to be resistent to it for this reason and will see the idea as being way too much trouble and effort to sell people on.
so essentially, i think it is the line-up of the other functions which drive the Ne polr of the LSI. and Ne messes with the rock solid stability of the other functions in a way which LSI might experience as a threat to what is known, safe, and secure.
FWIW.
mozart sucks. this is coming from a hypocritical snob who listens to classical music and considers many forms of popular music to be just terrible, similarly to this guy. it's difficult for me to evaluate how my views on music might compare to this guy's, but in general i find most popular music absurdly unmusical and uninteresting. there are some exceptions, but not many.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hostage_Child
That's more a manifestation of aristocracy than anything else. Both betas and deltas suffer from it. When we pick up something we tend to believe that it is somehow better than any other option available. It takes a conscious effort to realize that personal preferences are neither worse nor better, just different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hostage_Child
From the words of an SLI, this Ne PoLR manifests in that he cannot talk to LSIs about "what could be". He would try to inspire and encourage them by saying things like: "Let's try this, it could work out", "Don't worry, it could be that they'll reconsider", "May be we'll get lucky this time", etc. but by his account this made them uneasy because such comments created a kind of vague/uncertain picture of what's going on. They instead preferred concrete feedback.
Much of what has been brought up in the posts above (and this SLI guy's account) has to do with peculiarities of LSI's Casual-Determinist cog-style, which is one of the most precise and linear styles of thinking emphasizing pre-determination, rather than the Ne PoLR. It's hard to tell what role Ne PoLR plays in this process, but by my observations it could be manifesting in that LSIs deal with situations as they are, rather than seeing ways that they could re-shuffle and change some variables. Ne has a kind of premutative quality to it that allows Ne types to mix and match external statics of objects thereby re-designing the problem that they are dealing with. This is something that is completely absent from LSI (and ESI's) conceptualization - they instead deal with problems "head-on".
Reminds me of the recent conflict I had with a Ti-LII, except I'm the one dealing with things head-on and making sure I have all the facts right before saying or doing anything. The LII misinterprets my ideas and suggestions for decisions or concrete plans of actions which "I don't keep/follow." The factual accuracy of the bullshit he's trying to use against me is of secondary importance and my corrections are seen as "irrelevant semantics". Maybe Ti-LSI would suit him better.Quote:
Originally Posted by silke
In my husband it can show up as not being able to have a long-range or far-reaching vision of what could happen. It's like the 'future' becomes dark (as in lights-out, metaphorically speaking) to him. It seems to be, in my estimation from watching this happen, that if he is feeling pressured or stressed, he will overdo his first two functions Ti-Se by focusing on evermore elaborate systems (ostensibly to be used in the future), but without realling looking toward the future and seeing Ne possibilities (?) He's in the moment. If it gets really bad, I'll be a good dual and remind him to look up and out. It sems like if left unchecked the PoLR might become rather OCDish and gloomy doomsdayish. But, it's never gotten to that point.
What a pain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Park
I know an LSI who doesn't do well with unexpected changes to the plan, for example, once he got to the airport so early that his wife suggested they try to get on an earlier flight. He was reluctant to go ask about changing the flight, even though it would have given them more time at their destination. Part of it may be that he hasn't flown much, so airports and airlines are unknown territory. She thought part of it was just introversion. He is an emergency room doctor, so he is used to dealing with the unexpected, but in the ER there is a procedure for every chaotic situation.
One of the few times I have been seriously irritated by my LSI bf is when he wanted to reach the airport way too early.
Iris,
Your airport scenario is very interesting in that it's a good example of recurring situations I have had with LSI and been frustrated with him at his stubbornness to change plans mid-stream. To me it has always felt irrational and inefficient. The scenarios are like the one you describe above in which I think ahead and invariably envision saving useless down time or variations on that theme. But, now looking at this with a fresh view, I think the LSI might be wiser in a lot of these cases.
I haven't sorted out why, functionally yet. But to me it seems it might have something to do with having a concrete contingency with plan A. Switching to a random plan B brings in all kinds of possible ramifications that haven't been dealt with and accounted for. Whereas plan A, all of those have been thought out and dealt with. Switching gears throws a wrench in it and not always for the better. I see it as sometimes sticking to the schedule can save headaches down the road.
I think of it as thought before idea. What has been believed as to be the right way before any other possibility.
I am generally open and flexible when it comes to changes and adjustments that go in favor of improving my situation. I may even look for them myself, or just keep an open eye for opportunities that may arise. The only time I won't change my plan is when the change requires more effort than what I feel I'm getting out of it. Like, if I get to arrive just half an hour earlier at my destination (and assuming I'm not in a rush to get there), I won't bother changing my flight. So it's like weighing trade-offs for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iris
HOWEVER, when I've invested hours, or days, or weeks, planning or working toward a specific goal or outcome, unexpected changes are never received well. I don't want to throw away my efforts and hate to have to deal with unpredicted events that are either obstacles or redirects. I also refuse to settle for anything "less" or "different" than what my objective was.
Also, PEOPLE. I once caught a homeless person trying to steal my lunch box and had no idea how to react. Do I let him have it out of pity? Do I chase him away because he tried to steal instead of ask for food/money/whatever he needs? Do I give him some change and let him go? Does he "deserve" being given anything? How do I respond to his trying to get away by saying he was watching it for me and would never ever steal, which I know is not true? Do I lecture him on moral behavior?... People are always capable of confusing me and creating unexpected situations that I don't know what the right way to deal with is. And I sometimes feel unprepared to react appropriately because I haven't had the time to think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Park
This is clearly put. You raise a point I could never put my finger on. The element about throwing away time and effort is important from what you've described and it's something that I and maybe others miss in this deal about changed plans. I rarely feel like I've thrown away or wasted my time if I change plans and that may be a bit of an oversight (possibly due to ignoring Fi) in my case. Also, refusing to settle for less than the objective is right on the mark concerning the LSI.
Park, would or could you explain those two things in a bit more detail. How does your inner rationale go? Does part of the objective include the whole mental contingency planning?
Most certainly.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabrielle
Well, before I set out to do something, I first define my objectives and try to have as much clarity as possible about what it is that I want to do or accomplish. Even if it's a broad or vague idea, I need to know exactly what motivates me, what I want out of it, and how I feel about it. So when I begin working towards something, I have a pretty good idea of what I want to achieve and any potentially missing pieces I figure out and complete the puzzle as I go. I tend to spend lots of time sifting through options, carefully examining the differences and weighing tradeoffs before making any serious (or not so serious) decision, so when I make the decision, it's a well thought-out one. Then I plan thoroughly and with keen attention to detail. I don't mind spending time and effort on the smaller parts that constitute—and contribute to the quality and/or successful implementation of—the larger picture, and my natural mental approach is to build all things from the ground up. A problem arises when despite my painstaking efforts, clear objective, and honest intent in mind, things don't work out or start falling apart on me. At that point, someone might suggest a change of plan (usually including a change of objective), or giving up so as to spare myself the troubles. The former only makes sense and is acceptable as long as I can preserve the predefined objective and change my methods without (significantly) compromising the envisioned end result; the latter is defeating and unacceptable because I'm throwing away all the time and effort I have deliberately put into making something of meaning and substance come true.
So, having (1) a clearly defined goal and (2) an unreserved dedication of time and energy, makes (3) settling for any observably different or lesser end result pointless; as well as very painful to accept and deal with. As far as contingency planning is concerned, aside from crucial things I can identify which have the potential to pose more serious danger and are most relevant, I won't say I'm obsessed with eventualities (although someone less scrupulous might see me as such). I focus more on arranging my own performance and considering things that depend solely, or principally, on my own actions. The rest is left to be taken care of on the spot, by improvisation, brute force resistance, or whatever I find most appropriate and necessary.
I'm not particularity versed in lengthy verbal elaborations, but I hope that was comprehensible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_maguoo
A dislike of uncertainty. Everything new has to be integrated into their existing system of logic :Ti: which temporarily arrests their ability to take action :Se:. LSIs can therefore be paralyzed by constantly changing, ambiguous situations.
Park,
Awesome. That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!
You're welcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabrielle
I can relate to this. (Thinking about) the future and the passage of time are things that can scare the hell out of me like nothing else.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabrielle
Interesting you should mention this. I have come across a bunch of LSIs (and SLEs for that matter) in emergency medicine. They do seem to gravitate to EM for some reason (obviously not a blanket statement, i've also come across a few delta STs (though one LSE now that I think about it, decided against!) and some other types -- not really delta NFs though!), perhaps for the reason you mentioned (there's an algorithm for everything). Also, in emergency medicine you only need to deal with the most urgent things (again, per algorithm), and once you decide how to triage the patient (admit to the ICU, admit to the general floor, discharge home), the admitting service (intensivists, internal medicine hospitalists, cardiologists, surgeons, etc depending on the problem) takes over to try to actually figure out what's going on. The nice thing about EM that attracts people into it is that once you are done with your shift, you are DONE. You rarely need to follow up on patients's results later because they're not really your patients. When i was deciding on specialties, however, the fact that you never really get to dig into what the diagnosis made this option kind of an unfulfilling one... And i didn't really like the chaos (too stressful for my already disorganized mind), and i hate the idea of being a robot and medical care just being reduced to algorithms. I am however, forever a slave to my pager.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iris
Ne polr >
- very difficult to see a situation from another person's perspective and to understand "hidden content" (influences from someone's background, psychological factors, even cultural ones), inability to grasp the context surrounding a current situation (either as distinct stages in a development or exactly as one event led to another, cause and effect chain in its very process, which is closer to Ni); hard to read a person in all their essence and potential (which Delta NFs are quite good at), judges people mainly by what's very explicit or by body language and confidence levels
- the future is something they sense they don't have control over - it will just unfold; they master the present, but they cannot easily tell where stuff is coming from and where it's gonna go and what should be done in order to make sure stuff goes the right way; bad at estimating "long-term potential" in relationships or other endeavors, more tactical than strategic, they're masters at pushing for fast success, not so much maneuvering for some potential progress you see over one year ahead. They may not understand why you're taking on a new kind of work when apparently you haven't been making a shitload of money in your first 2 months, cannot realize how a resource can be exploited gradually, juts cause you found a good niche and you see how you're gonna build your skills and your client base slowly, but surely.
- can seem selfish in following their interests , since Ne polr means waiting patiently and when you have the opportunity pushing for your own causes, not understanding another's point of view and stuff.
- don't like changes, have their own routines, which is super-fine if it works for them and they don't get bored; however, need external help to change a less-than-ideal state they're in, because they're bad at perceiving latent potential
- hate randomness, expect predictability, are confused by sudden changes and turns of decisions, will strive to stabilize things in a state they can control; if they can't , they'd rather be out of it
The way I see weak Ne is the way (at least I believe it to be weak Ne) manifests itself in me. I don't like when someone tells me something in advance that could finalize in to multiple results with no sure idea of which is more likely. So like for instance when my dad just told me that he was going to find out about a medicaid approval the day before he was suppose to find out. That shit pisses me off, don't fuckin tell me about that shit until you know the answer and then I can make a definite decision on what to do about it. I would much rather you come to me and say "I didn't get approved for medicaid." than constantly update me about the process. Tell me what happened and I can tell you what to do, but save the fuckin details. Basically don't tell me about a surprise before you do it, just fuckin do it.
Not sure if any of these are relevant, but some people have suggested that I'm a Ne-PoLR type. A lot of this makes me sound pretty stubborn/unpleasant.
-My mom suggested out of nowhere that we update our cable/internet service to a service that's supposed to be a major improvement. I remember feeling frustrated about it since I was already accustomed to what I had, and didn't want to go through the trouble of having to move all the furniture around, remove the wires, set up a new router, having strangers in my room, etc.
-'New things' leave me indifferent, although I've seen a similar phenomenon described under Si-DS. My mom got pretty excited about spending a month in the Dominican Republic over the summer, and said we'd go to all these resorts that I've never been to. None of it interested me though, and I felt like I'd much rather just stay at my grandmother's house for no more than a week, like I'd always done. I was hoping to be employed by then too, so the idea of spending a month vacationing seemed embarrassing/depressing/pointless to me, although I feel sh-tty about potentially holding her back like that. It's still up in the air.
-I find it frustrating when people suggest that I deviate from a routine or route that I've grown accustomed to. Even something as simple as saying 'take this train instead of that one', 'you don't really have to show up that early', or 'go to this other store, you'll get a better deal' when I previously had no problem with my usual way of doing things makes me feel stifled. In my eyes, the plan of action was clear, and now I have all these other unnecessary variables thrown into the mix.
-A neighbor approached my mom telling her that I shouldn't be carrying my camera out in the open since it might get stolen. She took it to heart and I just wasn't having it. The way I see it is, noone's tried to take it, and they have no business trying to take anything from me, so why should I inconvenience myself over something that could happen, but hasn't? Granted, there are some areas that I already know to avoid, but I refuse to believe that I should start viewing the areas that I've already tested out time and time again for myself as unsafe. I can see how this could be obstinate though, and not Ne-PoLR necessarily.
-When I planned on doing a 4-week Film workshop in LA, I needed every single minute detail of how it would spelled out sorted out for me. The idea of leaving anything on that trip up to chance, or 'seeing how things play out' scared the shit out of me.
...I like randomness.
These Ne PoLr descriptions, man.
random thoughts on Ne polr:
1. i think both Ne and Se are "stereotype" functions. they take a snapshot of something and identify its properties as quickly as possible. both Ne and Se egos do this extensively but in very different ways, i think. although, i think the conventional definition of stereotyping fits Ne far more than Se. Ne-egos have a tendency to draw quick conclusions about people based on their appearance, clothing, social status, etc. i think Se-egos do something similar, but possibly with respect to people's beliefs and ideological positions, so forth?
2. LSI E6 friend is more tolerant, unprejudiced and open-minded than i can (probably) ever be. he's flexible, unpredictable and doesn't mind novelty (although not when it's contrived). tends not to plan when having fun, but tends to plan obsessively when anxiety hits, down to plan Bs and Cs and Ds. he formerly had a habit of generalizing very large groups of people (e.g. "black people need to stop wasting time being thugs and educate themselves" or similar) but i think that was residual racism from his family's side, rather than his own opinions, which probably says something about his polr i.e. not comfortable coming up with his own stereotypes, so he took the ones most convenient to him. i think, Se types often don't generalize as much as Ne types because when pushed to generalize, they do it really badly. it's kind of like looking at a block and having only a certain side of the block being visible to you and describing the side you see, while disregarding the other side that isn't visible to you completely.
3. Ne types on the other hand, i think, have a habit of assuming they can see the whole block even when they haven't seen all the sides. they will generalize often by assuming things like symmetry and fairness and follow thematic principles, like if X exists Y must also exist, "if a person is rich they must be unhappy because life doesn't make sense otherwise" or similar bullshit. but when they aren't falling prey to bad habits, they can generalize and extract the core "theme" of something far more easily and confidently than XSIs can.
4. squark
5. EIIs seem open-minded on the surface, but are internally judgmental assholes. with LSIs, the reverse is true IME.
6. perhaps all this is bullshit because i can also much more easily describe differences b/w LSI friend and myself using enneagram, so maybe i am completely wrong, but i'm probably not, anyway and why i am still typing things i don't know okay i will stop
This is excellent. How does it differ from Ne suggestive, though? Wouldn't Ne suggestive have the same difficulties predicting the future, changes in routine, reading "hidden content" etc. ? I guess as a suggestive function, you'd be more open to randomness and changes..?Quote:
Originally Posted by AshSun
I think people are prone to have some difficulties with both their suggestive and polr. But, while they may not be able to provide to their environment / act on the suggestive by themselves (at least not as much as an Ego type would), they are very aware of that type of info. They don't ignore it, but rather they seek to understand stuff that comes via those functions. They enjoy discussions on related topics and get interested and involved when someone appears to know more about it (even on a practical level) than them. That's why theoretically people are easy to convince / manipulate via their Super-Id block ... for good or bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by ConcreteButterfly
The bottom line in the example you asked about is that you're dealing with a Rational/Irrational dichotomy at the same time. So definitely a Ne-seeking is more open to randomness because as an irrational type they're not big fans of structure and plans, but prefer to take things as they come. SEI and SLI like stuff that could make them see things from new perspectives, discover unexpected sides of an issue, juggling ideas for the hell of it, and brainstorming. LSI as a rational type doesn't welcome such things, they want to avoid the unexpected and to bend reality to their beliefs and their will as much as they can. They are loyal to their patterns and routines - even more than ESI, because those "rules" have to make perfect sense to them, it's not only a matter of what feels right or of being honest to yourself.
U'r not LSI. And you seem to use a shitload of Se with little conceptualized Fi and almost no Ni. Besides, you probably have a 7 wing, I've never caught sight of any interest in knowledge from you.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackburry
Sup crayQuote:
Originally Posted by AshSun
you think and speak like a scientist, E5 for sure. I guess it was a quote from Robert Rogers.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackburry
I haven't read through the whole thread, but when I think of my LSI friend one thing that stands out is how fixed she becomes on one thing and can't see alternatives - she actually said she has to decide to do and focus on one thing, otherwise she feels kind of lost and doesn't know what to do. To quote her: "I know I have to do this first, maybe next that. I know I should do both simultaneously, but I can't do a bit of this and a bit of that." (even when situation calls for it) Seems like sth related to her Ne-PoLR.
I recognize this. I didn't blame it on the polr, I thought it's Ti "priorities tunnel vision" (logically established ones, immediate objective demands received via Se). I've seen LSI simply lose sight of other things while in a different country and absorbing the new setting and work they had to get involved in. Other tasks or problems (although important) were just left on hold and just placed into the folder "I'll think or decide about that later". I for one would have focused not only on the present, but also prepared stuff for the future. But well ... this sometimes makes me feel like I can get stuck between a rock and a hard place, because it can happen that I pay too much attention to something I want to achieve in several months and this can make me lose track of other details that should be dealt with today.Quote:
Originally Posted by aisa
hmm... I associated it with Ne-PoLR, because my ESI dad made a very similar complaint recently. They share Se (and it "blocks" Ne if I recall correctly) so basically Ne-PoLR would be a "consequence" of Se-creative?Quote:
Originally Posted by AshSun
The way it was phrased was in both cases a complaint made by them that they wish they could juggle multiple options, but they "have to" choose one in order to act.
My ESI dad is recently in the process of "learning" to juggle at least a bit cause he recognises that it hinders his performance if he fails to do so (leaves him without a "back-up" plan or focusing on one thing that doesn't have a guaranteed outcome when he could (and logically should) focus on trying a few things simultaneously and then seeing which one "works" applying his focus to this one thing.
My LSI friend is in a situation when she took up a new endeavour and as it is a "start-up" the situation calls for a bit of juggling and doing a few things simultaneously in order to shorten the first most difficult period. She recognises this and complained that she wishes she could work like this, but she can't act on multiple things, she has an inherent need to do one thing, otherwise she just gets stuck and won't do anything.
Those two situations seem quite similar in two different people who share half of their functions and the Ne-PoLR.
I could blame it on Ti in LSI, but can't blame it on Ti in ESI, that's why my thoughts sail towards their PoLR. What do you think?
Maybe it's a mixed influence of the polr and Ti prioritizing. The ESIs I know worry a bit more about the future (sometimes without enough grounds) ... probably because they estimate situations in a more subjective way.Quote:
Originally Posted by aisa
ILE here, I work with an LSI. He despises me, so I'll run down how this :Ne: PoLR looks to me.
Coworker likes to set up little systems, he has all these rules, and structures and algorithms to do things at our job. Set up all the materials, then start processing. I of course, am very in the moment, my methodology is that unless it's more efficient, grab the materials while doing the processing as need be. He will attempt to get me to set up the materials for him, I'm guessing this is :Se:. I don't like his methods, I think they are narrow minded, not robust enough for all possible situations, and strict routines cause me boredom. So of course I don't do it, and wing it as I go, and that further infuriates him. As much of my communication is :Ne:, I can't talk to this person about my day, he can't follow the conversations because I jump to and fro very fast. He often gets stuck up in unimportant/small details when I'm trying to describe the whole story. From my view when he describes stuff it is amazingly boring, and one dimensional I truthfully feel that this individual isn't prepared for the chaos that is life. If me not setting up a rack correctly is sending this guy into panic attacks, how the hell is he going to handle major changes caused by the course of life. How can he handle getting fired? Or a change of management? This is just work. How can he handle someone he loves moving away? Or unexpected bills? To me LSI and ESI for that matter, are much to rigid and at the same time, not robust enough to handle the very thing that makes life vibrant and amazing for me, change.
You guys are robots to me.
Lolol.
So I saw that @RedMarquee had responded to this thread, and when I clicked on it my first thought was "hmmm do you work with one or something? :thinking:"
Anyway, I don't think they are robots at all, although I can understand the frustration of being pushed away during conversation! LSI's I've known have been witty, brilliant, and kind of subversively humorous and wonderful. And they have this kind of slightly rebellious nature to them while also having this passion for life.
I do think that the Ne PoLR can show up (for me) in having a very set opinion on something via Ti and Se and sort of just... ignoring the framework of how that opinion could be different in more open circumstances... it's like they decide to stick to one facet of something rather than make it open-ended. But I can see how this could be very helpful when trying to push specific visions to completion, which makes sense given that LSI's I have known have been deeply-feeling sort of people, ultimately. Plus they are sooo competent, I don't see how they would be unable to deal with life lol.
you'd be surprised - they deal with it on a case by case basis, looking exactly at what happens in that moment without preparing in advance.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMarquee
and honestly, I think any fairly well-balanced human should be able to deal with these things. no one function is the be-all end-all- you don't need Ne to get through life.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMarquee
In general the reasons behind similar actions may vary greatly.
For example of eating same kinds of foods. You may try to predict and minimize negative sensations. As a kid after being very open to various foods but later I became very scared of certain foods which had negative impact on me. So let's categorize them in advance. Suggestive need for comfort.
Not finishing college. You may have very bad people skills and therefore very low career prospects. You may not give lots of importance for personal success over some other things. I tend to repel against that kind of stuff. Seems kind of repulsive to go after that. It is like self destructive process, but meh.
I've never thought about it. You're right.
In fact I'm between LSI and ILE. This conservative behavior against changes in sensations and comfort is probably related to Suggestive Si. "Being afraid of getting out of my comfort zone". This quote might have to do with Si. My girlfriend, my bestfriend, another friend and even my mother - I showed the descriptions for her (lol) - type me as ILE-Ti, while another friend types me as ILE-Ne. Whatever subtype I may be, I think your claim makes complete sense. I'm really an ILE afraid of changes due to Si. Maybe that's why LIEs (ENTjs) are considered the most dynamic types, open to changes, because they have really strong uncounscious Ne, and a very weak and unvalued Si, so they don't care about comfort zone.
About the college thing, it's not that I have bad people skills, I just don't have interest in people or in building a career, being slave to someone. I work in the trade market, very individualistic and with good returns. I don't need anyone to approve my tasks, only myself.
ILE-Ti is a type that tends towards the LSI, because of Ne-Fe weakened and Ti-Se boosted, so maybe that's why I look like an LSI but I'm not. (I have been typed in the internet as Beta ST)
My brother is LSI and to me his Ne polr seems to manifest as "living in box". He almost never generates ideas for new activities and it is always up to me or my family to convince him to do something he isn't familiar with. Without someone else to make plans (Ni creative) he will literally just stay home and never do anything else. Another manifestation of Ne polr I observe in him is his stinginess with money which stems from his fear of being unable to make unexpected payments. Lastly in regards to his Ne polr is how I feel I must always act in a way that he is familiar with or else he will get mad and criticize me for "acting strange". It should be noted that he likes goofing around sometimes and acting silly (Fe seeking), but sudden deviation in someone's character annoys him and makes him paranoid. In such situations he will use his Se creative and try to force them to settle down.
I think of my LSI mom as a miser. I have had to leave extra tips when we went out to restaurants and she would get annoyed about it. She gets estimates for work to be done and she looks at the person with this scowl that seems to encourage them to lower their price. I think they just know she won't budge on what she has in mind. It has worked for her. She has no problem telling someone, "no" straight up and not even haggling over it. She also had a thing for paying all of a bill at once instead of payment plans. If she can't afford it she won't buy it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddytextures
I have had to smooth over issues she has had with people in the service industry and contractors many times. I am sure some would have walked out on the job if I hadn't. She is very rigid and will make someone do everything they said they would even if something changes and it is close to impossible for the contract to be completed. I wish I could be more like that sometimes but I have also had to gently and calmly explain to her why it was not possible to do what they said. If I do that she can bend a little but still doesn't like it.
suspiciously
I'll give you an example.
I did some bookkeeping work for my brother in law and he tells my sister. "yeah, the computer does the calculations for her" as in I'm not capable of doing simple math (?). I took this offensively because he considers my math (American math) to be somehow substandard to his math (Russian system). We both have math training so I don't know why he has to feel like I'm not good enough. It hurt my feelings but I'm not a joking type. I just went to the kitchen and quietly reflected. I used my :Ne: that brings me understanding and compassion I justifies what he said as him not considering my feelings (devaluing Fi), asserting his superiority over me (Beta Se/Ti), him not finding that American math could be just as good, and other things I am using Ne. Preserve our good relations, leave it alone Fi. Ne is the object that allows me to see past the object and understand human essence. Thus I'm not like him, inconsiderate, meant to assert hierarchy and dominance. I felt bad for his short statement without much insight. It's common I guess for Se types to look for the weakness in others. After having said this the feeling of compassion overcomes him because I'm doing it for FREE and says "I trust her."
Does this help?
@Sol i guess you're right
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddytextures
Yes I get this a lot with my brother in law
Lack of traditional creativity. Tunnel vision. Failure to recognize or weigh possibilities. Inability and lack of desire to try new concepts, especially when not logically explained. Potentials and possibilities used as base for reverse information flow come from only those already experienced directly. Severe unease in situations of open-ended possibilities without structure. Severe unease at trying to choose from hypothetical possible choices where outcome is not previously known.
What bothers me is that every conclusion seems to have some sort of laser focus which can be very off. Ni-HA combined with Ti base and it is based on observable concrete Si data with very little penetration.
This is how I supervise it. :halo: This can be manifested further in Se heavy behaviors which makes me bit upset.
My mom has dealt with life straight on and has been a bit of a go-getter. Ne polr has not been a disability to reaching her goals. She is one of the hardest workers I have ever known. An immigrant who was not afraid of getting her hands dirty to show her family that she was competent and independent enough to take care of my middle sister and me on her own. When she moved to the US they all said she would fail and return home. She didn't. She is a no-nonsense type but able to loosen up and have fun in the right atmosphere. I have to say I admire her more and more as I get older. I took so much for granted growing up. I pushed her to the edge of emotional breakdown with my defiance but somehow we are closer for it now. She is actually very soft in the middle with a hard exterior.Quote:
Originally Posted by lemontrees
I completely agree with @lemontrees about their wit and rebelliousness, but in particular the subversive humor. They are hilarious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
But I can understand how it would be different with a parent, and also a female.. being LSI lends itself particularly well to being male imo. "miserly" is new to me though, I consider my EIE father as incredibly miserly, whereas my LSI partner is extravagant with money. Again it might come down to being a parent.
Also my partner is a Se subtype, so when he gets into tunnel vision mode I am usually aghast at the amount of resources he throws into achieving his goal (this could be an example of Ne-polr, he doesn't see other ways to accomplish his goal; whereas Ne is all about compensating for the lack of material resources).
Before my mom had kids she spent money extravagantly and was spoiled by my grandfather who had to do it behind my grandmother's back. Then her first husband, my bio-dad, (EIE) had her living way below the standard she was used to (I'm talking dirt floor house, rocks for a yard, according to my American aunt but it is not something my mom talks about) so she jumped at the chance to move our whole family to the US to make a better life for my sister and me. "My bio dad hated it here (for very personal reasons) and moved back. He was sure she could not make it on her own and she would run back to him. Everyone thought she couldn't do it. She proved them all wrong. She never had to work until she came to the US but she was stronger on her own. She worked hard to the surprise of her family and my bio-dad. She never looked back after that choice was made.Quote:
Originally Posted by bolong
I do love about LSIs that they just don't let you down, they don't disappoint the people they love, they do what they say they'll do :love:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
And I think it's tough being a foreign EIE male in America, my dad is one and he perceives everything as a blow to his ego :(