Differences between SEE-ESFp and IEE-ENFp

I was reading (and bored too) about this 2 type. MBTI said that ESFP are fun people, down-to-earth, and love new 'things' (music, food, whatever (information here)) . However, Wikisocions said that SEE are generally wary and mistrustful of new things, ideas, and behavior styles that they have not heard of, seen, or conceived of before., which, as I see, is completly the opposite things to MBTI's idea. Follow to this, I remember to myself that IEE are seekers of new things and generally they like to live in world of new ideas because of their :Ne:, He enjoys the beginning stages of just about anything - new projects, acquiring new skills, experiencing new people and relationships.
My question finally was, Which type in which way act more positively to new things in their life?

Maybe (and just my opinion) the SEE type likes to discover things to his own proper pace and he doesn't like that people says to him what new things are out there in the worlds.

What do you think?

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Originally Posted by dee

role Ne is exactly as you described, different positions of Ne in the model would give different attitudes to the new.

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That's why I ask. SEE have Ne in their third function, and like a wrote above, the description is somehow different as a MBTI descripcion IN THAT WAY.
MTBI Sucks, but I need a best understanding about this point. I mean, can SEE still get fun about getting new ideas using their Se as primary function? Because wikisocions says that are wary about this (for their weak Ne), even if the new idea (for example) is a challenge.

SEE are pretty fun orientated people. They like to party pretty hard. The one i know likes to have house parties though, perhaps so he can control who will come?

I tend to enjoy getting into strange situations. It doesn't happen that often but different groups of people tend to energize me. Just recently i hung out with a group of like 5 people i didn't know and one i did. Was really interesting to me getting to know the people and wondering what would happen. The same group of people can get a little boring after not long.

ESFp's being Irrational are pretty chilled out though. As there role they would go along with new things but wouldn't actively seek them out as much. They are pretty confident people though so when something comes up they cruise through it quite well.

I think i just told you obvious stuff though :P

Your answer is very useful, since you are IEE. Thanks! Meatburger :D

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though when time brings them to them somehow, and they start considering them, sort of putting them through themselves, they are energized and use them or whatever with possibly high enthusiasm.

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I believe in this sentence too, maybe they are just looking/waiting for something new useful, practical and of course, funny. But after time they loose the enthusiasm and they forget them looking for new stuff or challenge.

Anyway, is there ANY SEE here who is not the all day looking for gilfriends/boyfriends/friends on the internet who can answer this question?

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Originally Posted by normal

Anyway, is there ANY SEE here who is not the all day looking for gilfriends/boyfriends/friends on the internet who can answer this question?

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Sadly not dude we dont have any regular SEE's here. A few people are suspected to be them but its never confirmed. Even if they did come they might not know how to answer :)

Oh, how sad

I used to believe that I'm SEE, maybe because I tend to looking for fun and girls n' stuff like that when younger, you know, but actually I don't think finding their own type is stereotypically dork. I mean, people like me like to know this kind of thing as a important resourse for my own self-discover so is very important (or at least, I give them the importance), how sad that I'm too changeable.
Fuck :Ti:

Anyway, thanks dude

(my intention with this were to find any SEE to see if we have something related)

hey ESFp here haha so yeah i think we are attracted to new things in terms of :Se: because then it's a new sensation, fun, adventure that I haven't experienced yet. For instance, I like trying foods I've never had before; particularly from another ethnicity so that I also learn a little bit about the culture in the process (oh how i love :Te: )

Anyway, sorry to go on a tangent but yeah when it comes to people bringing up new theories or new ways to do something I'm mistrustful of it because if "it ain't broke don't fix it" also too i need the physical evidence or facts and stats in order for me to be open-minded to this new method, process, whatever.


Hope that helps!

LOL

SEEs are very underated!

like a party, where theres a gathering of people

howwilleach compare/contrast to eachother?

I don't have a real convinced opinion on this one, but just to let you know, here are the differences:

ENFP:
1 talking for keeping up the relationship with others
2 having a laugh for themselves / making fun of others
3 Not so the center of attention
4 Stating opinions

ESFP:
1 talking with a genuine interest for the other person.
2 Trying to make the other person a laugh / making fun of themselves
3 Usually noticable by everyone.
4 Storytelling

Both however are playful and joking.

I disagree that ESFps show a "genuine interest" in people and we don't. I'd say both are the same there. And I think both are into storytelling.

ESFps are more boisterous generally, from what I've seen. I think the two are more alike than different. ENFps shy away from confrontation and ESFps don't, so if some kind of confrontation comes up you could look for that.

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Originally Posted by Slacker Mom

I disagree that ESFps show a "genuine interest" in people and we don't. I'd say both are the same there. And I think both are into storytelling.

ESFps are more boisterous generally, from what I've seen. I think the two are more alike than different. ENFps shy away from confrontation and ESFps don't, so if some kind of confrontation comes up you could look for that.

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Really? I've seen some ENFp's really say their piece at times! And they can be quite stubborn when the mood is on them.

@Jarno, overall I think what you wrote is quite good. Slackermum makes a good point about talking to someone with an interest in them personally for both the types, however I think the ENFp is more aware of how everyone is interacting with each other, hence the bigger picture of the relationships taking place, which I think is what you were getting at.

Well we aren't wilting violets, but if you compare functional use, ESFps have leading Se, which ENFps have weak and unvalued Se. So if you compare the two, that would be a difference. That doesn't mean we are never involved in confrontation, just we shy away when compared to ESFps.

Heh @ the wilting violet comment.

Yeah, SM is correct.

I had an ESFp ex, and when we went to parties together, he'd sorta get into "alpha male" mode and would be very loud, funny, dominant. He'd be the first to make fun of himself or others, would act out silly movements, etc. He liked to get people rilled up and get little competitions going like drinking contests, etc. I didn't have as much chance to talk with all of that going on, so I probably looked like an introvert.

But, after we broke up, I kept the same circle of friends, and without him there I noticed that I was much louder and became the one to get everyone to have fun (but in a more subdued way). I was outgoing but less loud (and less likely to dance in a silly way for the amusement of strangers), and while I do also make fun of myself, it's in a quieter way and I probably wouldn't get strangers to partake in a drinking contest (however, w/ my close friends, I might if I was bored).

It can be hard to tell because when ENFps are acting aggressive, we can look a lot like ESFps, but it's for a shorter time and it's when we're stressed out, not our default personality.

Also, I knew a girl who was ESFp, and while she wasn't as loud, she was more forward in getting people drinks or food (making the drinks herself), where as I'm less hands on.

Both ESFps and ENFps are welcoming of strangers, but ENFps seem to do better one-on-one w/ the new person (because that's where we can figure them out quickly and make them feel comfortable), and ESFps are better at welcoming either individuals or large groups (they don't seem to get intimidated).

I noticed ESFps do come across as friendlier, and more likely to chat loudly in line with a stranger. More gregarious. ENFps are quieter until we feel comfortable and then we are loud and silly for periods of time.

So like slackermom said, that Se makes for a big difference, though both types are warm, enthusiastic and friendly.

I'm pretty much having an "I agree with jewel" day and since I'm too tired to try to come up with my own words, I'll just second that post. Jewels, I think you did a good job describing the differences/similarities between ENFps and ESFps, as I've noticed between myself and my mom who is ESFp.

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Originally Posted by Jarno

I don't have a real convinced opinion on this one, but just to let you know, here are the differences:

ENFP:
1 talking for keeping up the relationship with others
2 having a laugh for themselves / making fun of others
3 Not so the center of attention
4 Stating opinions

ESFP:
1 talking with a genuine interest for the other person.
2 Trying to make the other person a laugh / making fun of themselves
3 Usually noticable by everyone.
4 Storytelling

Both however are playful and joking.

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this is pretty good but with standard subtypes you end up with yet another 2 scenarios or a division of the existing two.

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Originally Posted by Jarno

I don't have a real convinced opinion on this one, but just to let you know, here are the differences:

ENFP:
1 talking for keeping up the relationship with others
2 having a laugh for themselves / making fun of others
3 Not so the center of attention
4 Stating opinions

ESFP:
1 talking with a genuine interest for the other person.
2 Trying to make the other person a laugh / making fun of themselves
3 Usually noticable by everyone.
4 Storytelling

Both however are playful and joking.

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Could it be that some of these characteristics are shared with other extroverted irrationals? E.g. I've seen ESFp characteristic #2/3 in ESTp's as well.

I'd like to see a cool matrix of some kind.

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Originally Posted by consentingadult

Could it be that some of these characteristics are shared with other extroverted irrationals? E.g. I've seen ESFp characteristic #2/3 in ESTp's as well.

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Yep I agree.

Though we could make another division with ESFP and ESTP.

Simple question, how are they different? How are they similar? How would a relationship with an SLI be different with an SEE than with an IEE? What would be some key ways to notice the difference? Should these differences be glaringly obvious? I've tried to go off quadra preferences and what not and I'm still at a loss.

IEE's have you ever confused yourself for SEE? If so, why? SLI's, do you also have trouble differentiating between the two?

both are warm and energetic. But look for Se! If you see Se or hear sensory details in conversation that's a ESFp! Fi is there for both.

ESFp are a bit more upfront about being louder and more outgoing in a "take control" way and ENFps are a bit quieter (or at least take a bit longer to open up before they start being all gushy about how wonderful you are).

Also ESFp will do silly things to make people laugh in a physical way, like doing a ridiculous dance in public, where as an ENFp might be too shy. Or the ENFp will do a silly dance for 3 secs and go back to standing where as the ESFp will continue w/o shame.

Both like to talk about people's motives, but the ESFp understands it from the tactical approach someone may be taking to get what they want (Se), example, "that guy is working that angle because he wants to take over that whole team." where as the ENFp focuses on that person's motivation from an emotional side (Fi) "she's feeling insecure right now so she's hitting on that girl's boyfriend, which is so wrong, but I understand it."

ESFp talk about real things. "I saw this movie w/ so and so actor and then my friend did such and such and I said he was an idiot." ENFp likes to talk about themes, theory, "Your friend reminds me a lot of your other two friends -- I wonder if all of your friends are pretty quiet people?"

SEE - smash iron bars into smithereens the feel bad about it.

IEE - have lots of iron bars and twists them into all sorts of unusual shapes then name them things like "Fred", "Albert" and "Loopy-do" and gives them to people as random presents, then feels bad that they got the shapes wrong and wants to make them other things.

This post is stupid, btw.

hmmm interesting

I have such a hard time noticing how different Sensing and Intuition are in the real world. Unless it's extremely obvious (which it probobly hardly ever is) I can't identify it. I guess maybe since i'm so grounded in reality, it's hard for me to pick up on, I dont know. Maybe I'm going off MBTI too much here...you can't just focus on one function as they all play an equally important role in typing someone. I might have to resurrect the IEE famous person's thread (if it exists). I need real life examples here.

SEE --> they reject new ideas

IEE --> they embrace new ideas

IEEs are light and fluffy, and also have social grace.
SEEs are solid and have a grounded grace to them.

Both are personable. One type needs practical intuitional help, another type needs practical sensory help.


I know, these things are so straightfoward when I say them, but it really comes down to being able to realize the functions, feel them as per how people use them. If I knew the words your mind used to designate certain feelings or reactions, I'd use them.

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Originally Posted by jessica129

Simple question, how are they different? How are they similar? How would a relationship with an SLI be different with an SEE than with an IEE? What would be some key ways to notice the difference? Should these differences be glaringly obvious? I've tried to go off quadra preferences and what not and I'm still at a loss.

IEE's have you ever confused yourself for SEE? If so, why? SLI's, do you also have trouble differentiating between the two?

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Ah, I didn't really read all of that.

Those are good questions to ask :)


One thing I would expect to be noticeable, with two sensory types, is that you both might be fighting for control of "S" things. Both SEE and SLI will feel "responsible" to take the lead on S things and to arrange S things to their liking (be it eating, touching people, how they feel (physically), etc).

That is what stands out when I'm with other S people.

There might be a nice sort of chemistry in that one person is F (Fi creative) and the other is T (Te creative), which works out really nicely. Those kinds of relationships seem very comfortable.

Compared to SEE and IEE, SEE seems a lot more focused on the "now", where as IEEs are more scatterbrained and following various mental leads. SLIs see IEEs as less intrusive that way and feel more comfortable establishing and leading in S matters with IEEs.


SEE SLI can be somewhat enjoyable, especially if you are going to be doing mostly physical things.



Why do you ask, Jessica?

All obvious reasons point to IEE but what really get's me here is our relationship. If it's duality, it's disappointing. I know duality isn't absolute perfection and understanding and bliss but I'd at least like to feel like you'd be excited and energized by your dual. That's really where my confusion is coming into play. I think this person is IEE but if I were to base it off the relation description only, I'd say it was SEE/SLI.

What kind of excitement do you think should be there. What are you missing?
What are you looking for?

What do you want this person to provide you with?


Duality can be 'boring' in that such complementary people don't "challenge" you, but it depends on where you're coming from, and what your quadra's take on duality is.

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Originally Posted by UDP

One thing I would expect to be noticeable, with two sensory types, is that you both might be fighting for control of "S" things. Both SEE and SLI will feel "responsible" to take the lead on S things and to arrange S things to their liking (be it eating, touching people, how they feel (physically), etc).

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Yeah, usually I notice this immediately too but I don't with this particular person. I don't necessarily notice the "N", it's just more like a lack of "S"....or a completely equal balance of both. It's extremely confusing to me. I'm not sure if what I'm noticing as a likeable feature in this person is just related to the 'F'. He very well could be SEE and i'm just liking his 'F-ness'. Argh, does that make sense? I don't know how else to explain it.

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Compared to SEE and IEE, SEE seems a lot more focused on the "now", where as IEEs are more scatterbrained and following various mental leads. SLIs see IEEs as less intrusive that way and feel more comfortable establishing and leading in S matters with IEEs.

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I never feel like I have to be the one to carry out the 'S' matters...but then i'm wondering if that's just related to 'I' vs 'E'...? Is that MBTI here that's confusing me?

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Duality can be 'boring' in that such complementary people don't "challenge" you, but it depends on where you're coming from, and what your quadra's take on duality is.

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Yeah.. It's comforting, it's nice, but not challenging and lacking a bit of excitment. We're not romantically involved--the thought has arouse a few times but that's just not going to happen. This is just out of curiosity..

I can't gather my thoughts right now for some reason. More later maybe.

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Originally Posted by jessica129

I never feel like I have to be the one to carry out the 'S' matters...but then i'm wondering if that's just related to 'I' vs 'E'...? Is that MBTI here that's confusing me?

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I was using different layers of generalization, but yes, I can see how it was unclear.

Instead of "being the one to carry out S matters", perhaps more like you feel a certain responsibility for S related things (sensory things, including both Si and Se). Tension, possibly (theoretically) could arise because both of you would have an S function in your ego block - that is, it would be something that both of you feel 'responsible' for. That's not bad, but the different preferences might be strange - particularly Se vs Si.

What you'd ultimately miss, though, would be the Ne that your dual would provide. Related, an aggressor might not let you "care for them" enough. As an SLI, that might not really register anyways, because SLIs can be very hands off on most things. But, if you don't feel useful or like you are helping someone - doing anything for them, then, that might make you feel like there isn't that much there.


To be honest, I've never had issues with how SEEs go about S related things, so, I can't really say in comparison to myself. They don't strike me as pushy or anything.



However, all I've done in this post is present different theoretical approaches. I don't think anything I'm saying is diagnosis of the situation, because I still don't know what the situation is.

Duality? Boring? Well, if it's a new experience, then there's often a thrill. After that wears off, you're still energized by your dual... but not excited. Just... recharged.

Source: Experiencing Dual Relations

I've always found my husband to be comfortable, not really energizing, though as I understand it the extravert and the introvert have different experiences as far as that goes. But what was most noticeable to me immediately was a lack of conflict.

It will seem boring if you're coming off of relationships with other people that are based on lots of excitement and doing things. (That is, when you're not really dualized and perhaps don't realize the value of dual interactions. when you're not acclimated to the goodnesss of duality).

I think recharging, yes, is a great way to put what duality is. And yes, @ slacker mom. For me it's more "relaxing", as in, this is someone who I do not have to put effort into in terms of just living with or doing things with that person.

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Originally Posted by UDP

It will seem boring if you're coming off of relationships with other people that are based on lots of excitement and doing things. (That is, when you're not really dualized and perhaps don't realize the value of dual interactions. when you're not acclimated to the goodnesss of duality).

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This is very true. I think maybe i've been comparing my relationships I've had with Beta's and that's obviously going to be a lot different than how my relationship are with Deltas. The relationships I've had with Beta's have been intense and explosive and I think I made the mistake of thinking that was healthy... and a gage of how interested the other person was. Maybe without that, that's what's making me feel "bored".

Jessica, I recommend you reading about Epicurus and specially his book "About happiness". I'm not sure what type he was, but definitely Delta NF.

Risking spoiling it, I will just say excitement doesn't really make you happy. Excitement is an unstable state, impossible to maintain for long. Unreal. And the more you become addicted to the "highs", the more harshly you will experience the "lows". Emotions are chemicals within the brain, identical to any commercial drug.

True happiness is a state of serenity, where nothing hurts or bothers you. And even if he didn't said it explicitly, Epicurus was thus probably the first person to realize the true importance of a dual in our lives. Only those who have experienced such serenity can claim being truly happy.

If they're Delta*

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Duality? Boring? Well, if it's a new experience, then there's often a thrill. After that wears off, you're still energized by your dual... but not excited. Just... recharged.

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Quoth the man with the golden eyeball Fe DS ;)

I think excitement should be there, dual or not. Not an unhealthy sorta edge of my chair I'm freaking out sort of excitment, but at least a sorta "ooh I'm excited to see this person!" thing.

From the variety of ISTps I've met, it's been run between competely boring to completely exciting. I don't think that part is type related -- whether that is platonic friends or romantic too: you can be excited to see platonic friends when they're fun people.

I think duality is sort of like when a left handed person sits at a dinner table and they are NOT hitting into a right handed person's hand. It's better for everyone that way. But all it tells you is that. What kind of person they are and if you like them is a whole different thing -- but yeah, duality is a great starting point.

But like I posted before, I met a hideously boring ISTp who I really disliked...so there is a lot more to people than type. Like the way they smell, how their voice sounds, how smart or talented (or not) they are, their life experiences, their subtypes, their culture, their goals and potential (or lack of) -- and I think that combination of everything together is what draws us together or repels us. I think boring might just mean you have no way to grow from spending time together? Just a theory...I dunno

Upon further thought, I don't think this person is IEE. SEE is much more probable. It's all making sense now. Thanks for the input.

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It's comforting, it's nice, but not challenging and lacking a bit of excitment.

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Actually, I feel more initial connection and 'euphoria' with ILIs than SLIs. Then they look to me for more Se.. initiative? motivational energy? pursuit? I don't know what, but the relationship stalls out very quickly. And I feel like there's a gap in understanding that's not being bridged. Ever. We have interesting conversations, but no really deep connection, or intrinsic comfort around each other.

Duality isn't euphoric from the get-go - not in the Hollywood OMG I LOVE THIS PERSON SO MUCH AND WE'VE JUST MET WE'RE GOING TO BE HAPPY FOREVVVVVER.

In fact, with the SLI I'm seeing (?), our dates have been pretty comfortable, with a smidge of typical barely-know-this-person awkwardness. But for once, I also feel like I'm not trying to entertain him. And I don't HAVE to entertain him. I'm just being myself - and "myself" is off-and-on talkative and quiet, tbqh. It takes me a while to get used to someone.

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Originally Posted by tiny_dancer

Actually, I feel more initial connection and 'euphoria' with ILIs than SLIs. Then they look to me for more Se.. initiative? motivational energy? pursuit? I don't know what, but the relationship stalls out very quickly. And I feel like there's a gap in understanding that's not being bridged. Ever. We have interesting conversations, but no really deep connection, or intrinsic comfort around each other.

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This is exactly how it is for me and SEE's. Almost exactly. The main problem being the gap in understanding and lack of a deep connection. It feels very superficial...nothing ever getting deeper than how it feels to have a casual conversation with an aquaintance. It's so frustrating. Yeah. If I could sum this relation up, it'd be frustrating. It gets old fast. And one thing I notice, I'm very nervous around this particular person...people don't usually have that effect on me so it's really upsetting to me when i feel that way. It's sort of a..."now what" sort of feeling. None of that nice dual comfortable-ness we hear of.

Oh, good, you got something out of that post. I posted it and then realized you'd already come to a conclusion on the matter and thought, "Oops. Nvm." Then I was going to get rid of it... thought about changing it... and then just got lazy and decided I didn't care enough to do either.

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And one thing I notice, I'm very nervous around this particular person...people don't usually have that effect on me so it's really upsetting to me when i feel that way. It's sort of a..."now what" sort of feeling.

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Yeah, illusionaries kind of do that to me too. One of the websites has it described as a sort of weird 'inertia' which I think is a very good description.

I know that feeling with ILI's aswell. Theres this extremely attractive german ILI on campus. When we talk we basically just feel like grinning or smiling at each other. I can tell shes ILI because i see the characteristic face flickering (moments of stress) that i dont see from SLI's. We tend to feel quite excited then it just dissipates and we both walk off lol.

Then there was this SLI from Colorado who seemed to instantly take a liking to me. I didn't notice her as much at first but when i talked to her i realised she likes to ride motorbikes, quad bikes, ride horses, all stuff like this. Shes broken her bones about 1 billion times. When she said this i certianlly payed a lot more attention to her. Then one night at the campus party she came up to me and sat next to me and said "theres so many guys out here that think they are so sexy, they are just here to pick up the girls". When she said that i found that hugely attractive and knew i had a delta on my hands. So anyway as a group we were hanging out quite a bit and i noticed that she was walking next to me all the time and laughing at most of thing the things that i said. When i would look into her face she would be very smiley. Anyway i didn't make any real move on her but in my head i was building a liking for her. I did eventually ask her out but she made herself unavailable for the day and that hit me pretty hard. Theres a lot more to this story but lets just say that she ended up hooking up with another SLI guy :whistle:. I can tell that relationship is already failing hard and i suppose its giving me some pleasure haha. So there is the shitty kind of end to my story. Prob for the best though as she has to move away at the end of the year and im sure as hell never going live on a farm :)

On a positive note i met a SLI guy on my first day on campus. I had transference from an SLI i knew back in my home town. They were almost identical. Anyway he was hanging out with another cre (ESFj's and such) and i just let that happen. I saw him a few nights ago and he confessed hes having an an awful time (supervision sucks haha). Hes not sleeping and feeling like shit. Hes younger than me so ive kind of taken him under my wing and im making him feel better lol.

hmmm oooops ive been ranting. SLI and SEE is a pretty common hookup i know quite a few couples like this. They get on fairly well and have been together for long periods of time. I do find they seem to have communication problems though where the ESFp gets hurt etc etc. ESFp and ESFp are both fun people i think the difference is one is more mental and one is more physical. ESFp's are more likely to want to go out and do stuff and thats exciting and fun. ENFp's are more likely to just say fun / funny things because of the weird stuff going on in our minds haha.

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ENFp's are more likely to just say fun / funny things because of the weird stuff going on in our minds haha.

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lol Yeah, that's true. I tend to say random stuff out of the blue that takes people by surprise. Hopefully they're entertained by it, at any rate...

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Originally Posted by tiny_dancer

lol Yeah, that's true. I tend to say random stuff out of the blue that takes people by surprise. Hopefully they're entertained by it, at any rate...

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It really is random, isn't it? There's no forethought or consideration involved, it just comes bubbling out. People who know me well love this kind of stuff. New acquaintances, otoh . . . :shock:

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Originally Posted by UDP

IEEs are light and fluffy, and also have social grace.
SEEs are solid and have a grounded grace to them.

Both are personable. One type needs practical intuitional help, another type needs practical sensory help.


I know, these things are so straightfoward when I say them, but it really comes down to being able to realize the functions, feel them as per how people use them. If I knew the words your mind used to designate certain feelings or reactions, I'd use them.

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No, these striaghtforward explainations like these are clear and perfect, there is no need to go so deep becuause it is one confusing, and second, it is not always right as things are so well defined.

@meatburger:

I'll never forget a quote from "Zorba the Greek":

"God has a very big heart but there is one sin he will not forgive: if a woman calls a man to her bed and he will not go."

mike, that's discrimination against asexuals.

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Originally Posted by mikemex

@meatburger:

I'll never forget a quote from "Zorba the Greek":

"God has a very big heart but there is one sin he will not forgive: if a woman calls a man to her bed and he will not go."

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Lucky i dont believe in god then :wink:

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Originally Posted by jessica129

Simple question, how are they different? How are they similar? How would a relationship with an SLI be different with an SEE than with an IEE? What would be some key ways to notice the difference? Should these differences be glaringly obvious? I've tried to go off quadra preferences and what not and I'm still at a loss.

IEE's have you ever confused yourself for SEE? If so, why? SLI's, do you also have trouble differentiating between the two?

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Your posts are strangely erotic.

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Originally Posted by thePirate

Your posts are strangely erotic.

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I'd be shocked if thePirate wasn't SEE... His posts read like emails from my SEE older brother.

Strangely erotic indeed.

To answer the question, with SEEs there's a lot more bluster--George Clooney, or Will Smith, or in extreme cases, David Lee Roth and Jennifer Lopez... With IEEs, their personalities are quite a bit more understated, less of a production--Ellen Degeneres comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by thePirate

Your posts are strangely erotic.

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What? lol

Yeah...soooo....now I'm thinking he's IEE again. Oh well.

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Originally Posted by jessica129

What? lol

Yeah...soooo....now I'm thinking he's IEE again. Oh well.

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wOW. I'm having a hard time differentiating if I am an SEE or IEE too. (physical or menta? uhh both duh) anyway I do imitations and jokes loudly to a small group of pepole I know very well. socially awkward SEE or really random IEE? its rediculous but this one in damn near unanswerable. sorry you can't tell OP. I dated an SLI for a really long time. we were on and off for a while after that. I could easily say "wow, yes. definately duals" I could also say "wow, yes. definately illusory partners" there is also always this nervous "what next" feeling between us. an uncomfortable silence. although we know eachother very well, like, and love eachother very well. maybe its just activation that I am not used to. by the way, I think his sister is his dual so that might make it different. him being used to and wanting the stimulation, me being nervous and not understanding the stimulation. BUT who's to say it isn't my uncomfortable functions being stimulated. too frustrating. I can't figure it out.

just realized how easy this is with dichotomies. positivist or negativist?

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...and_negativist

@Eliza Thomason

ESFp's seem more genuinely inspiring/confidence-inducing to me, even when they're not trying to. Probably because of how persistent/forceful they are, and the fact that they're positivists.

SEE's lack the imagination of IEE's. They don't tend to have actual hobbies or strange interests, instead they're more focused on sensual goals, like climbing the work, social or money ladder.

ENFps are calmer on the surface than ESFps but ENFps can be a bit paranoid when it comes to feeling like they are being controlled. It's like you ask them to do something for you and they do the opposite. Also, when you confront them about it they will lie or play dumb or pretty much do anything just to get out of a confrontation. I guess it's probably related to Se role. I think Jennifer Lawrence's character from American Hustle is a good example of this. This also applies to EIIs but it doesn't end up nearly as explosive with them. I should say that this only applies to some Delta NFs. Most are compliant but I still think the area of control is often times a sore spot.

A couple of other points: ENFps seem to lack the stability that ESFps have and they demand that stability from their partner which is why SLIs are good for them. Also, ENFps can SERIOUSLY nag.

ENFps are better at reading people, and at perceiving the development of an event and changing tracks accordingly. ESFps will stick to a plan unless there is tangible evidence that it won't work. They need physical confirmation of the validity of new ideas, otherwise they remain skeptical. ENFps are open to new ideas without explicit evidence. ENFps can be indifferent to money and power, ESFps specifically pursue money and power. ENFps can start things without finishing them, due to Ni ignoring, ESFps can start sensory activities without "finishing" old ones, that is experiencing their gradual rise and descent (Si ignoring). ENFps unconsciously anticipate the continuation of a person's internal direction (Ni), and if it leads to sensory discomfort (low Si), they change their own internal direction, expressed outwardly as a shift in their focus of attention and rate of activity. ESFps do a similar thing but with Si, they unconsciously anticipate the continuation of a person's sensory state (Si), and if it leads to an intuitive discomfort (low Ni, scattered external direction+pace), they change their own sensory impact.


In a social situation an ESFp will be louder and more obviously the center of attention. ENFps can also be the center of attention but often fade into the background, engaging in private fantasizing. ESFp are democratic, accepting of people of all races and statuses, taking them more at face value. ENFps are more suspicious, and subtly mocking to those they consider of lower class. ESFps are vividly aware of their surroundings, feel physically the balance of power of those situated in it. ENFps can be totally ignorant of the balance of power and relate to people more through their imaginative impressions of them. ENFps need and are grateful to people who are attentive to their health and comfort, ESFps are independent when it comes to their health and comfort and often guide others into adopting their sensory habits. ESFps often have more friends and are more open about their personal lives, ENFps are friendly also but have more acquaintances than friends, and are more private. ESFps are willing and able to physically exert themselves for those they love. ENFps don't generally physically exert themselves for others, and are less able to because of a lack of attention on sensory matters. ESFps can be gullible when it comes to religion and abstract philosophies, taking the view of the majority, ENFps are much more independent and individualistic regarding abstractions, rarely accepting convention. ESFps have definite long term plans, ENFps plans are more vague, and easily change according to the circumstances. ESFps are good at leading people towards a common goal, applying volitional pressure when necessary. ENFps are not natural leaders and have much more insecurity about applying volitional pressure, either under or over doing it. ENFps have vivid imaginations and use them to supplement thier sensory experiences, which they experience vaguely, ESFps have vivid sensory experiences and use them to supplement their imaginations, which are hazy. Physically ESFps are more grounded, inert, they take up more space. ENFps are more mobile, hazy, they take less space and can be "invisible".

SEE-open, trustin, focused on what comes tothem through their sensess...what people said to them, what they heard, those delicious things they eat, influencing or being sensitively impacted by their SO

IEE-closed, suspicious, very loyal friends once you're trusted and in, seek experiences emotivist will cry and cheer for the achievements of their friends and somewhat uneasy and tense at times, very assertive and unafraid by repetitive attempts by others to make them feel bad...they are courageous and can hold their own ground where SEEbwomen can opten withdraw, freeze and become very emotional when their will is not impacted

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Originally Posted by Contra

ENFps are calmer on the surface than ESFps but ENFps can be a bit paranoid when it comes to feeling like they are being controlled. It's like you ask them to do something for you and they do the opposite. Also, when you confront them about it they will lie or play dumb or pretty much do anything just to get out of a confrontation. I guess it's probably related to Se role. I think Jennifer Lawrence's character from American Hustle is a good example of this. This also applies to EIIs but it doesn't end up nearly as explosive with them. I should say that this only applies to some Delta NFs. Most are compliant but I still think the area of control is often times a sore spot.

A couple of other points: ENFps seem to lack the stability that ESFps have and they demand that stability from their partner which is why SLIs are good for them. Also, ENFps can SERIOUSLY nag.

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I get the idea that the ESFps and ENFps you know are very different from the ones I know. Assuming you have them typed correctly, and it seems that you might have them typed correctly. Most of the ENFps I know are pretty stable, and two of the three SEEs I know well have had big challenges in their life,compromising their appearance of stablity so you can't really blame that on their type.

I don't like the feeling that I am being controlled. maybe it is type related. I thought it was my ISFj mother growing up. It was so nice to go to college and be out from under the control. I guess I had not resolved my childhood issues because I married a controlling ESFj. He was that way because of Narcissism, I don't think it was related to type. So, I am sensitive to being controlled and my SLI doesn't try to control me and I appreciate him a lot. We just argue our points with each other bu no one is trying to impose on the other.

I suppose I could appear to be playing dumb when I am actively avoiding confrontation. Its just that I am so focused on that avoidance, I will just shut off the problem in my mind and focus on the positive just to get out of it.

I do NOT nag. My mom nagged and I hated it and I decided never to be like that. I worked real hard at not nagging my son... I think I was tempted because that is how I was raised. However I raised my son to express himself freely and he freely let me know how he felt if I got anywhere near nagging, so...

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Originally Posted by ConcreteButterfly

ENFps are better at reading people, and at perceiving the development of an event and changing tracks accordingly. ESFps will stick to a plan unless there is tangible evidence that it won't work. They need physical confirmation of the validity of new ideas, otherwise they remain skeptical. ENFps are open to new ideas without explicit evidence. ENFps can be indifferent to money and power, ESFps specifically pursue money and power. ENFps can start things without finishing them, due to Ni ignoring, ESFps can start sensory activities without "finishing" old ones, that is experiencing their gradual rise and descent (Si ignoring). ENFps unconsciously anticipate the continuation of a person's internal direction (Ni), and if it leads to sensory discomfort (low Si), they change their own internal direction, expressed outwardly as a shift in their focus of attention and rate of activity. ESFps do a similar thing but with Si, they unconsciously anticipate the continuation of a person's sensory state (Si), and if it leads to an intuitive discomfort (low Ni, scattered external direction+pace), they change their own sensory impact.


In a social situation an ESFp will be louder and more obviously the center of attention. ENFps can also be the center of attention but often fade into the background, engaging in private fantasizing. ESFp are democratic, accepting of people of all races and statuses, taking them more at face value. ENFps are more suspicious, and subtly mocking to those they consider of lower class. ESFps are vividly aware of their surroundings, feel physically the balance of power of those situated in it. ENFps can be totally ignorant of the balance of power and relate to people more through their imaginative impressions of them. ENFps need and are grateful to people who are attentive to their health and comfort, ESFps are independent when it comes to their health and comfort and often guide others into adopting their sensory habits. ESFps often have more friends and are more open about their personal lives, ENFps are friendly also but have more acquaintances than friends, and are more private. ESFps are willing and able to physically exert themselves for those they love. ENFps don't generally physically exert themselves for others, and are less able to because of a lack of attention on sensory matters. ESFps can be gullible when it comes to religion and abstract philosophies, taking the view of the majority, ENFps are much more independent and individualistic regarding abstractions, rarely accepting convention. ESFps have definite long term plans, ENFps plans are more vague, and easily change according to the circumstances. ESFps are good at leading people towards a common goal, applying volitional pressure when necessary. ENFps are not natural leaders and have much more insecurity about applying volitional pressure, either under or over doing it. ENFps have vivid imaginations and use them to supplement thier sensory experiences, which they experience vaguely, ESFps have vivid sensory experiences and use them to supplement their imaginations, which are hazy. Physically ESFps are more grounded, inert, they take up more space. ENFps are more mobile, hazy, they take less space and can be "invisible".

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Great observations. I just want to mention that ESFps are called the Politician for a reason - they can be very smooth in social situations. And some ENFps can be very awkward. My ENFp friend can be quite loud and frequently makes herself the center of attention, compared to her ESFp sister (who is extremely chill and would never draw attention to herself by being loud.) The ESFp draws attention to herself with her amazing sense of style and good looks and great personality. She is charming but not fake. She never seeks out anyone at parties - people seek her out. The ENFp definitely seeks people out and then kind of forces her Ne on them. The ESFp is much more socially aware and polished. She tries unsuccessfully to help her sister tone it down so she won't face so much rejection.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason

I get the idea that the ESFps and ENFps you know are very different from the ones I know. Assuming you have them typed correctly, and it seems that you might have them typed correctly. Most of the ENFps I know are pretty stable, and two of the three SEEs I know well have had big challenges in their life,compromising their appearance of stablity so you can't really blame that on their type.

I don't like the feeling that I am being controlled. maybe it is type related. I thought it was my ISFj mother growing up. It was so nice to go to college and be out from under the control. I guess I had not resolved my childhood issues because I married a controlling ESFj. He was that way because of Narcissism, I don't think it was related to type. So, I am sensitive to being controlled and my SLI doesn't try to control me and I appreciate him a lot. We just argue our points with each other bu no one is trying to impose on the other.

I suppose I could appear to be playing dumb when I am actively avoiding confrontation. Its just that I am so focused on that avoidance, I will just shut off the problem in my mind and focus on the positive just to get out of it.

I do NOT nag. My mom nagged and I hated it and I decided never to be like that. I worked real hard at not nagging my son... I think I was tempted because that is how I was raised. However I raised my son to express himself freely and he freely let me know how he felt if I got anywhere near nagging, so...

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I think IEEs become more stable as they get older. They just seem anything but stable when they are in their teens and early 20s. A lot of teens are unstable so maybe that's just an age thing. However, I had an ENFp tell me she liked me because I seem stable which made sense to me she would like that since she is just all over the place and totally unsure of herself. Also, Ne dominance isn't exactly known to be a harmonious. It's just too bad she doesn't realize that I'm definitely not what she is looking for in terms of stability.

Control issues are something I've noticed with all Delta NFs. I think individual circumstances can play up certain parts of a type and make them more sensitive than others e.g. in your instance of control with your mother, but on the whole it seems IEEs have a problem with control (in an Se sense of the word). Also, I think SLIs are usually pretty good about not controlling, but I'm sure it can vary.

The focusing on the positive thing you talked about is actually exactly what I was talking about. I prefer to just get problems out in the open so I can resolve them but Delta NFs will sort of shut down. If that doesn't work they usually have a queue of tactics to avoid a problem. It drives me insane. Just different coping strategies I guess.

I think nagging is probably just a symptom of our intertype relation rather than an actual inherent trait to the type.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Contra

I think IEEs become more stable as they get older. They just seem anything but stable when they are in their teens and early 20s. A lot of teens are unstable so maybe that's just an age thing.

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Not sure about the stability thing becaseu I think I was fairly stable in teens and 20s. Well, hmm, maybe not always. I knew the boundaries for not getting into trouble and pushed them at times. But I long I always knew what I had to do and did it, and only sometimes excelled in meeting responsibilities....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Contra

However, I had an ENFp tell me she liked me because I seem stable which made sense to me she would like that since she is just all over the place and totally unsure of herself. Also, Ne dominance isn't exactly known to be a harmonious. It's just too bad she doesn't realize that I'm definitely not what she is looking for in terms of stability.

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Its interesting what you said about the stable thing, because I looked to my ESFJ ex for stablity. So I do think we look for/value that. I am sure appreciating it in my SLI. It makes me feel safe.

But what do you mean, "Ne dominance isn't exactly known to be a harmonious"? Can you give me an example so I can understand what you are saying?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Contra

Control issues are something I've noticed with all Delta NFs. I think individual circumstances can play up certain parts of a type and make them more sensitive than others e.g. in your instance of control with your mother, but on the whole it seems IEEs have a problem with control (in an Se sense of the word).

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I would love some examples on this. Since I am ENFp, and I do have a some problems with control. I thought it was circumstantial; it would be interesting to see it as type-related. Also more explanation of what you mean Se-control! I think also Fe-control i don't like.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Contra

Also, I think SLIs are usually pretty good about not controlling, but I'm sure it can vary.

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I think you are right on that. Not only my SLI husband, but also my SLI brother and father are good about not controlling. But all three can be pretty stubborn at select times! If this is true what you say about ENFps not liking controlling and ISTps not controlling, its another example of the perfect harmony of Duality.

(I think also we don't like controlling because we realize that some of the controllers are completely not getting us and they don't want to/can't.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Contra

The focusing on the positive thing you talked about is actually exactly what I was talking about. I prefer to just get problems out in the open so I can resolve them but Delta NFs will sort of shut down. If that doesn't work they usually have a queue of tactics to avoid a problem. It drives me insane. Just different coping strategies I guess.

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Yes, coping strategy I guess. A strategy I will use if someone is annoyed and I feel they are annoyed because they misunderstood me completely, but I think they are incapable of understanding me because they either just don't get me or they are so caught up in their own irritation, I will sometimes try to completely see it from their side and apologize very specifically to their complaint while ignoring my own viewpoint for the sake of peace.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Contra

I think nagging is probably just a symptom of our intertype relation rather than an actual inherent trait to the type.

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Probably.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason

But what do you mean, "Ne dominance isn't exactly known to be a harmonious"? Can you give me an example so I can understand what you are saying?

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By definition Pi is harmonious while Pe is creative. It complements my stability idea. That's all. I know tons of Ne doms who like to go to other countries and view the world and tons of Si doms who just want to settle down.

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I would love some examples on this. Since I am ENFp, and I do have a some problems with control. I thought it was circumstantial; it would be interesting to see it as type-related. Also more explanation of what you mean Se-control! I think also Fe-control i don't like.

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SEEs are interested in organizing their social groups and controlling who is in and out. It's not usually in a catty way but can be if someone resists. EIEs do this too. Also, Se doms like you to comply with their social goals and activities. Ne doms just do what they want. However, I think Ne egos just have a difficulty with control in general. Examples are a bit harder. Generally, if I ask an Ne ego to do or not to do something there is no guarantee they will comply if they would rather do something else or they see it as unreasonable. The won't explain themselves either. They will just give no response and then do what they want.

lol its great how these threads always turn into a competition. you guys are animals.

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Originally Posted by Iris

Great observations. I just want to mention that ESFps are called the Politician for a reason - they can be very smooth in social situations. And some ENFps can be very awkward. My ENFp friend can be quite loud and frequently makes herself the center of attention, compared to her ESFp sister (who is extremely chill and would never draw attention to herself by being loud.) The ESFp draws attention to herself with her amazing sense of style and good looks and great personality. She is charming but not fake. She never seeks out anyone at parties - people seek her out. The ENFp definitely seeks people out and then kind of forces her Ne on them. The ESFp is much more socially aware and polished. She tries unsuccessfully to help her sister tone it down so she won't face so much rejection.

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That's kind of biased by your own perception of what's likeable and what isn't...based on this description, I'd find the ENFp much more likeable. (ftr, the ESFps I know are anything but "socially smooth" over the long term, in fact one of their biggest problems is having both lots of friends and lots of enemies)

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Originally Posted by FDG

That's kind of biased by your own perception of what's likeable and what isn't...based on this description, I'd find the ENFp much more likeable. (ftr, the ESFps I know are anything but "socially smooth" over the long term, in fact one of their biggest problems is having both lots of friends and lots of enemies)

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I was mostly trying to address Contra's blanket statement that ESFps were louder than ENFps, with something from my personal experience:

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In a social situation an ESFp will be louder and more obviously the center of attention. ENFps can also be the center of attention but often fade into the background, engaging in private fantasizing.

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Regarding the statement below that I made:

Quote:

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The ESFp is much more socially aware and polished. She tries unsuccessfully to help her sister tone it down so she won't face so much rejection.

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Maybe I needed to expand on that sentence to clarify that the ENFp alienates people and drives them away with her over the top Ne. It is not just my opinion. She has very few friends, much to her sorrow. She could use more friends like you, who enjoy Ne, but she doesn't seem to be very good at finding them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iris

I was mostly trying to address Contra's blanket statement that ESFps were louder than ENFps, with something from my personal experience.

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I said IEEs were calmer on the surface. I think that is usually true. I just mean that SEEs are usually busier or more frenetic than IEEs in just regular face to face interaction. That doesn't necessarily translate into loud vs. quiet. I don't know which type is louder. In my experience, IEEs tend to be, but we are probably both dealing with such small sample sizes that a contradiction in opinion only speaks to the wide variety of behavior in types. So, it's hard to say anything confidently without having unanimity.