Discusion of Ne PoLR in ISFjs and ISTjs

Over the years, I've come to think about the PoLR as just a reflection of your creative function, in a somewhat practical / down to earth fashion, meaning: humans have a limited amount of time they wish to allocate among differing activities, and if you focus on a specific facet of human life you're going to miss developing "skills" in its opposite facet.
So if you very much focus your life on completing a series of urgent tasks in a timely fashion with the highest amount of skillfulness (which I associated with Se creative, and perhaps sometimes Si creative), you won't have time to develop a constructive theoretical framework on how to apply existing methods to craft a new idea (which I associate with Ne creative, and perhaps partially with Ni). And if you're focussing your life on completing urgent tasks in a timely fashion, you may want to know how to do it as quickly as possible and in a way which may grant medium-to-long term success, I guess.

I often enjoy impulsive ideas and spontaneity when it comes to fun stuff in free time. I only get overwhelmed when they conflict too much with what I already had in mind or they are in regards to more serious life choices. Or the ambiguity of something like "maybe I'll go bowling with you Saturday, I'll call you and let you know Friday". .i might need to know by Wednesday cuz I'll be at the bowling shoes store or something lol I know people have lives so I try to hide my impatience unless this happens a lot. But it makes me feel anxious

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Originally Posted by Suedehead

Yeah, I can't do parties or large get-togethers for too long without feeling like I'm wasting my time. Close friends or family on a holiday is fine though.

Part of it is social anxiety, and another part of it is just not seeing the use of it from a long-term perspective. No genuine bonds are being formed or strengthened, I'm not actually enjoying this, nothing's being gained, none of this matters. It's pointless self-indulgence. A distraction. I could be working on my resume, applying for jobs, finishing the book I'm reading, catching up on my homework, etc.

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I relate to this, but I enjoy these situations a lot more now I have control over my anxiety. It's a cliche, but you get from these situations what you choose to. The best way to tackle social anxiety is to put yourself out there and just talk to people.

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Originally Posted by Neuralia

Yeah I agree. It's virtually the same for me. I'm slightly better with parties than when my SEI friend comes up with stupid ideas like crawling through the rain drainage tunnel, building a bonfire on campus (Im in college), or constructing a raft out of small intertubes and duct tape and rowing it down the river. That said, I won't do either really. When Im stuck with these types of people I just start to think about all of the downside and whether I should stay because I'm sort of their friend or leave because its pointless and not fun for me. I then start worrying about my social progress and wondering how I ended up stuck with a bunch of guys who think walking through a wet tunnel and getting pneumonia is fun. If I don't see how an activity will help me progress, I just won't do it.

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This made me laugh. I have (had) friends like this, who have to turn everything into something stupid and irresponsible (but not actually in any way daring) to prove how brave and "manly" they are. I bet they shame you for not taking part, and all that negative shit? Fuck them.

this was a particulary helpful description of Ne Polr

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... [for] an example of ESI Ne PoLR works live, read the OP to this thread. There is a lot of dwelling on Ni and Fi, ethical analysis of past actions, without considering the positive future potential.

ESI (Ne PoLR): This is what has happened, this is my past. It was full of mistakes and personal failings. This is where I am now. What will happen from this point on makes me feel fearful and apprehensive (it will disturb my present stable state).
ILE (lead Ne): Don't get stuck on the past - instead think about all the positive potential that your present holds! Think about things that could happen and how your situation could change.
ESI: [feels awkward because he/she cannot lucidly conceptualize it, and edges towards the exit]

I think Ne PoLR is best described as an inability to visualize and describe all the "could be's" and "might be's" and a deep running insecurity when the ESI/LSI gets pulled out into this zone.

The difference between LSI and ESI Ne PoLRs is that ESI doesn't consider positive future potential while the LSI doesn't consider negative potential. Thus ESI runs him/herself into a corner and begins complaining about not seeing a positive future, while the LSI keeps running around making mistakes and getting bruises from life, and also complains about how life is bringing him down.

Good example of the later, of LSI's Ne PoLR, is Stalin's reaction to an attack by Nazi Germany that broke their nonviolence pact. He blanked it out and denied that his country could be getting attacked by the Germans. The Red Army did nothing for weeks, people weren't evacuated leading to higher military and general population loses. Stalin could not entertain the "negative" possibility that Hiitler would turn against him. This attack completely blindsided him.

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I also agree with these posts. This is exactly how I've seen Se creative and weak intuition show with an ESI woman at my workplace.

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Originally Posted by lungs

the way i notice it with my ESI sister is like if something isn't directly connected to the goal/situation at hand, then its pointless. like she sets a path and any alternate ideas or suggestions of other things to take into consideration are ignored because what matters is the path that has been chosen.

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Originally Posted by pianosinger

Yep. This is my mom (also ESI). She gets her mind set on something, and it's not so much that she is unwilling to look at other possibilities but that she is simply incapable. And if other people try to suggest other options, it's like they might as well be speaking a foreign language.

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In my LSI brother, Ne polr manifests as a constant search for what could possibly go wrong and also an inability to grasp really crazy facts. Whenever he is working on a project or a paper he will put in an ungodly amount of hours and have every human he knows look it over just to make sure nothing goes wrong. Even when he blows people away with his work, he still finds the negative. It's actually led to insane academic success but he is so stressed all of the time he will probably die before 40.

To the latter, I remember showing my brother a Vsauce video where the guy talks about the number of particles in the universe (or something along those lines) and how large of a number it is. My brother just sat there and said he was wrong because he couldn't imagine how large of a number it really was. It was maddening to say the least. This has happened countless times. His Ti lead coupled with Ne polr makes him impervious to being gullible or believing anything he wasn't taught in school or by his parents.

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Originally Posted by Contra

In my LSI brother, Ne polr manifests as a constant search for what could possibly go wrong and also an inability to grasp really crazy facts. Whenever he is working on a project or a paper he will put in an ungodly amount of hours and have every human he knows look it over just to make sure nothing goes wrong. Even when he blows people away with his work, he still finds the negative. It's actually led to insane academic success but he is so stressed all of the time he will probably die before 40.

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The way I've seen this work in a couple of N-polr people is: something comes up and they completely stop doing a given task (when they are fed up) without any kind of transition.
By the way that desc sounds more ISFj than ISTj.

That's interesting. That's not really like him. He can't handle the unexpected but that just leads him to preparing for pretty much everything. Could you give an example of a situation?

That does sound like my LSE father however. He can't handle anything that messes with his plans or beliefs. He constantly claims that he can't handle uncertainty, which I don't have as much of a problem with.

All of my brother's friends are Beta. His wife is EIE. My LIE sister and he conflict pretty badly. It would really mess with intertype relations if he were ESI. Not saying it's impossible, but I couldn't be ILI and most types I've given would have to be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Contra

In my LSI brother, Ne polr manifests as a constant search for what could possibly go wrong and also an inability to grasp really crazy facts.

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My LSI mom is the same. Her motherly caution borders on surveillance. (Not great on my Se PoLR; my space is my space, it isn't an "annexed" extended space of hers to dominate, just because I'm family). I see this a lot more than what some members have posted on not seeing the negative consequences (although I guess that may be true for things that were her idea - perhaps I don't get to see much of that since my dad tends to lead with the ideas. But certainly she responds to other people's ideas with default negativity). Also, she has no appreciation with the far-out notions my IEE dad and I sometimes toss around - or that we do it on purpose. For like, fun. It seems incomprehensible to her why we would "unnecessarily" think of alternative interpretations (whether of facts or of people's motivations).

I was married to an ESI (there were extenuating circumstances as to how an LII managed to get herself in that situation - let's not go there). His negativity was different. It was less about novelty but more about being recalcitrant about changing their view of something or someone they already decided they understood - and he reacted especially negatively when presented with hard evidence for how the view is less supported than another. He had dreams but couldn't build himself or contemplate any changes in order to reach them. Our marriage deteriorated until it hurt both of us and we knew it had to be dissolved, but he couldn't bring himself to do anything - I had to do it for the sake of both of us. He asked how I could cope. I told him, the person I was could not, so since there was no choice, I grew to become the person who could. He simply could not understand it.

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Originally Posted by discojoe

Her children should stab her in the neck with pencils. I bet she didn't foresee that one.

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The manifestation of ESI functions, depends on how they see themselves according to their base Fi. I think ESIs are confusing because of this, since you have to work out how they see themselves first. They can easily appear like another type until you work out whether the observed behaviour is type-related, or an ESI identifying with that role/self-image. But if an ESI mother decides that a good mother cares for her kids' nutrition, then that is what manifests as nutritionally controlling. If it's something else, then that's what it appears as. (Note: I use "controlling" because I'm Se PoLR and that's how I perceive it. LSIs and ESIs probably just see it as being effective in pushing people under their care to achieve things that are 'good for them' - direct acquisition of the goal is preferred, i.e. compliance, rather than indirect such as misdirection or cultivating desire or inspiration). I think that part is Se Creative, though, not the Ne PoLR.

But yes, any number of things that they don't already like, they will be determined not to like - but actually, many of the supposed reasons for not doing them are rationalisations and not really the reason, IMO. Because convincingly removing the reason, does not change the opinion; it boils down to, I won't like it and so won't try it. Nicer ESIs won't impede you from trying yourself, but it's still not as fun if you can't share the experience with them. One way ESIs can manage, is if they decide that a role they identify with, requires them to be fun. I know one such example, a manager in a department that values innovation. Then she will try to sample novelty - she will even believe that she values ideas, when everyone in her team and adjacent teams would disagree. Anyway it doesn't work as well as it would for an Ne valuer, but at least they avoid ending up as wet blankets. For ESIs I note so far that a lot rides on what their Fi tells them about who they are. It's a really strong motivator for them; they really believe it to the exclusion of all else.

dear lord.

None of these descriptions sit well with me about how I view myself.

I evolve. and I do change. and I do things. and incidences that aren't necessarily favorable happen all the time..how anyone can't just go with the flow at times is strange to me. especially if it's somewhat minor.


I think my Ne Polr comes out during a fight more than at any other time. Because I want to be right.

I've tried to figure out Ne-polr in action, beyond the basic descriptions. So far I've seen things that might fit with it, but they are LSI-based and I've no idea whether they apply to anyone but the people I know:

(1) An inability to look at something in its current state and imagine how it can be transformed, even when the whole future picture is described clearly. I've seen that this can improve over time, though. Or at least more trust can emerge on this issue.

(2) Requiring a damned good, proven, external reason to deviate from what is "correct," normative. A rigidity here that surprises me. Only on certain issues, though.

??

When you can't finish reading books like 1Q84 because the storyline seems pointless and events seem too random to even care what happens to the characters. Also, not being able to get past the wrongness of the thirty year old man having sex with a seventeen year old regardless of the circumstances. The plot felt like a cover up, an excuse, as if the goal was to have sex with a minor regardless of the circumstances while blaming the circumstances for it happening. "It just happened," kind of b.s.

^ i haven't read lolita for similar reasons.
but i liked murakami's kafka on the shore even though it was really weird/dreamlike and involved incest. (haven't read 1Q84)

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Originally Posted by lungs

^ i haven't read lolita for similar reasons.
but i liked marakumi's kafka on the shore even though it was really weird/dreamlike and involved incest. (haven't read 1Q84)

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hehe.....yeah, I don't plan on ever reading lolita. I haven't read anything else by Marakumi. Maybe it was the translation, but I just didn't enjoy his writing style, especially his use of analogies and metaphors, and there were many. They just seemed odd and not relevant. 1Q84 had a dreamlike quality to it and parts of it were fascinating for sure, but otherwise, meh. I just lost interest halfway through.

It's kind of trade off really. I enjoy reading a lot of Stephen King, and I believe that you mentioned you liked some of his works as well, but sometimes he writes so tangentially that I start to lose interest. But, I often love the depth of his imagination, the world that he creates, or the atmosphere and feelings he evokes, that I'm willing to force my way through them. His work can be very dreamy and enjoyable as well.

Ne polr might look like the inability to make changes due to fear of the future, feeling as though one has a lack of options, rigidness in beliefs, closed off to others and new ideas or adventures, being over cautious, saving (old objects and money) excessively, hoarding.
Not interested in change (new meals, trying new things).

That said please share how you have seen Ne polr IRL in LSIs and ESIs.

And btw this thread was created out of love only! :love: I've got a very special LSI and being an ESE-Fe subtype I highly value Ne. So I am curious.

Ne PoLR can be understood best by considering how it works alongside Se-creative.

It's not a fear of change, it's needing to do something (tangible, Se) when people, systems, or situations don't correspond with their set of ethics or principles (Ji) but since Ne corresponds with "space" it can be assumed that Ne valuers know when and where to place "things". Ne PoLR doesn't. It may instinctively know that now isn't the best "space" (Ne) nor "time" (Ni), but since Ji-lead + Se-creative overrides both Ni and Ne, xSI must act immediately.

I'll try to provide examples by comparing Ne PoLR with Se PoLR.

At their worst,
Ne PoLR will seem like bigots that take it too far and invalidate both themselves and their cause(s).
Se PoLR will seem like doormats that don't take it far enough and miss out on opportunities to share their perspective.
("The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.")

At their best,
Ne PoLR will seem capable of enacting tangible change in their environment with an admirable dose of volition.
Se PoLR will seem capable of subtly reworking their environment with a healthy dose of perspective.
Ne PoLR sacrifices perspective for volition, while Se PoLR sacrifices volition for perspective.
(volition = immediate, tangible change; perspective = gradual, "sit and ponder" change)

How this plays out in interactions between IxE and xSI, is that the crux of what Ne-leads say is equivalent to "hot air" (which isn't usually meant to trick or deceive, it's just running wild with Ne) but xSI attach real weight to words/deeds. So if you say or do [x] today but then you say or do [y] tomorrow, it's like *WHH CHH* whiplash. LSI is more likely to think: "I said or did [x] today but then tomorrow I said or did [y]. I can't even trust myself."

That's why Ni HA is "to believe" - if you're exposed to enough contradictory information, then the line between truth and falsehood blurs. It's safer to assume it's all falsehood, but that's where supervision comes in handy. IxE knows how to communicate with xSI in their language (Fi or Ti) - they know how to shed perspective at key moments to alleviate xSI from their incredulity, even paranoia, whilst expanding their horizons in the process.

While I can't use myself as a measuring stick for my type, I can say that personally i have recently noticed the tendency to jump the gun, so to speak. This has the benefit of problematizing an issue and removing ambiguities. The downside is that it might come across confrontational and might cause issues where there weren't any (but, say , I felt the need to address some ambiguity). This is just one trait, there might be more i could add later

Can Ne PoLR manifest as a kind of disinterest in imaginative wanderings that have nothing to do with the immediate situation or otherwise no practical use? For instance, having no interest in imagining where all the cars on the freeway might be going, thinking about the past or future, or hearing stories about people they will never meet?

Can it manifest as a kind of acceptance of reality, having no regrets, not wondering about how things could have been different, and not worrying about alternatives much when making choices? Just choosing one thing and going with it as if it were the only path one could choose, trusting fate, as one sees no point in regret or imagining that things could happen differently?

Can Ne PoLR involve a strong disinclination to make any guesses or inferences, connect the dots, or jump to conclusions? Feeling uncertain about anything that isn't fact, and not wanting to presume one knows more than they do? Feeling open-minded in the sense of acknowledging what they don't know, and that the unknown could be anything as far as they know, but not wanting to guess at what it may be?

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Originally Posted by isptn

Can Ne PoLR manifest as a kind of disinterest in imaginative wanderings that have nothing to do with the immediate situation or otherwise no practical use? For instance, having no interest in imagining where all the cars on the freeway might be going, thinking about the past or future, or hearing stories about people they will never meet?

Can it manifest as a kind of acceptance of reality, having no regrets, not wondering about how things could have been different, and not worrying about alternatives much when making choices? Just choosing one thing and going with it as if it were the only path one could choose, trusting fate, as one sees no point in regret or imagining that things could happen differently?

Can Ne PoLR involve a strong disinclination to make any guesses or inferences, connect the dots, or jump to conclusions? Feeling uncertain about anything that isn't fact, and not wanting to presume one knows more than they do? Feeling open-minded in the sense of acknowledging what they don't know, and that the unknown could be anything as far as they know, but not wanting to guess at what it may be?

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All told this sounds most like an SLI. "Not worrying", "no regrets", "acceptance of reality" is sort of the antithesis of Ne Vulnerable. Ne Vulnerable means you dislike unknown factors and try to avoid them by controlling your environment or sticking to what you know. The last paragraph sounds like valued Te with low Ne. Other Te ego types might also fit.

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Originally Posted by thehotelambush

All told this sounds most like an SLI. "Not worrying", "no regrets", "acceptance of reality" is sort of the antithesis of Ne Vulnerable. Ne Vulnerable means you dislike unknown factors and try to avoid them by controlling your environment or sticking to what you know. The last paragraph sounds like valued Te with low Ne. Other Te ego types might also fit.

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I'm not sure I agree. Somehow I just don't see Ne PoLR types worrying about all the things that could have been or could be and wanting to consider multiple options. Meanwhile, SLIs do seem to worry and catastrophize sometimes, imagining things that could go wrong. They also seem interested in imagining what's out there in the world. The thing about wondering where all the cars on the freeway are going actually came from an SLI. She seems intrigued by all the possibilities and complexities, which she doesn't actually suggest herself but seems to wonder or ask for. My response to that was to say it sounded like it would be information overload.

I don't know. At this point I'm sure I'm a Sensor, so I must be either Si or Se. I have not been finding Si at all relatable. But I don't know about Se either. But how you defined Ne Vulnerable doesn't sound different from what I described, especially sticking to what I know. I don't try to connect the dots or make guesses, I just stick with what I actually know.

No. Ne polr means you get very frustrated when somebody jumps around topics too much instead of going deep into the Fi point you are trying to make. (lsi makes Fi points all the time with their role function, and esi with their ego function.) Ne & Fi fight all the time in this way.

I don't see Ne polr without imagination/creativity or anything like that (that is more Ni polr - esp more in Te subtype lse) - but yeah if somebody is being way too idea-based (Ne is ideas) and not grounded in reality enough, it will really piss them off.

What you are describing in this and the other thread is pretty unlikely to be SLI.

You are probably confusing an intuitive (Ne) and possibly ethical type, with SLI. IEE or EII Ne maybe.

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Originally Posted by Syrup

What you are describing in this and the other thread is pretty unlikely SLIs.

You are probably confusing and intuitive (Ne) possibly ethical type, with SLI. IEE or EII Ne maybe.

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Could be. The person I considered SLI could as easily be EII, I mostly see Si and Fi. Why do you see her as unlikely to be SLI?

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Originally Posted by isptn

Could be. The person I considered SLI could as easily be EII, I mostly see Si and Fi. Why do you see her as unlikely to be SLI?

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Ne PoLR and Ne Seeking are both 1DNe. Which means that are in equal conditions in the level of use or performance.

The only difference between both is that in one, Ne is valued and for the other is unvalued.

So, Ne Seeking or Suggestive , as the words say, is stimulant, exciting and needed.
While the PoLR causes pretty much the opposite reaction, its uninteresting, confusing and conflicting.

That said, this:

Meanwhile, SLIs do seem to worry and catastrophize sometimes, imagining things that could go wrong. They also seem interested in imagining what's out there in the world. The thing about wondering where all the cars on the freeway are going actually came from an SLI. She seems intrigued by all the possibilities and complexities,


I could see a Fi and Ne doing the imagining others ppls lives part, while the worries and fears are not characteristic of Si and Te and Ne suggestive doesn't manifest in any of the ways described in the paragraph.

Also an IEE told me once that he do exactly the same:wondering where all the cars on the freeway are going.

What you described as food pickiness is not a characteristic of 4DSi either, since 4D is mastery. Being too peculiar in matters is often more present in 1D functions (even PoLR) since 1D means being experienced just in first person, without being able to adapt or use the function appropriately according situations considering the rest of external elements.

Plus, most sensor types, especially Sensing lead are much more experiential, which is what you were describing in the other thread about the girl having ideas about stuff without any previous experience to support her decisions.

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Originally Posted by Syrup

Ne PoLR and Ne Seeking are both 1DNe. Which means that are in equal conditions in the level of use or performance.

The only difference between both is that in one, Ne is valued and for the other is unvalued.

So, Ne Seeking or Suggestive , as the words say, is stimulant, exciting and needed.
While the PoLR causes pretty much the opposite reaction, its uninteresting, confusing and conflicting.

That said, this:

Meanwhile, SLIs do seem to worry and catastrophize sometimes, imagining things that could go wrong. They also seem interested in imagining what's out there in the world. The thing about wondering where all the cars on the freeway are going actually came from an SLI. She seems intrigued by all the possibilities and complexities,


I could see a Fi and Ne doing the imagining others ppls lives part, while the worries and fears are not characteristic of Si and Te and Ne suggestive doesn't manifest in any of the ways described in the paragraph.

Also an IEE told me once that he do exactly the same:wondering where all the cars on the freeway are going.

What you described as food pickiness is not a characteristic of 4DSi either, since 4D is mastery. Being too peculiar in matters is often more present in 1D functions (even PoLR) since 1D means being experienced just in first person, without being able to adapt or use the function appropriately according situations considering the rest of external elements.

Plus, most sensor types, especially Sensing lead are much more experiential, which is what you were describing in the other thread about the girl having ideas about stuff without any previous experience to support her decisions.

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I often thought, when I read 'post your favorite food stuff' as though it's an Si thing, it's really a bunch of N types fussing and failing over what makes a good dinner.

Wrong thread a bit - just when you mentioned about the mastery thing.

Si hidden agenda types have all sorts of weird concerns, worrying about the digestion system etc when they eat, of if they'll eat, it's almost a case for hypochondria ... not that i'm slapping conditions on PoLRs, just that it can become obsessive.

Just like an SLI can become obsessive about forming bonds and being close to people, which I think is where all the SLI and pet obsession comes from, pets won't reject you - but then, they're not as interesting as people, but well, who knows haha.

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Originally Posted by Syrup

Ne PoLR and Ne Seeking are both 1DNe. Which means that are in equal conditions in the level of use or performance.

The only difference between both is that in one, Ne is valued and for the other is unvalued.

So, Ne Seeking or Suggestive , as the words say, is stimulant, exciting and needed.
While the PoLR causes pretty much the opposite reaction, its uninteresting, confusing and conflicting.

That said, this:

Meanwhile, SLIs do seem to worry and catastrophize sometimes, imagining things that could go wrong. They also seem interested in imagining what's out there in the world. The thing about wondering where all the cars on the freeway are going actually came from an SLI. She seems intrigued by all the possibilities and complexities,


I could see a Fi and Ne doing the imagining others ppls lives part, while the worries and fears are not characteristic of Si and Te and Ne suggestive doesn't manifest in any of the ways described in the paragraph.

Also an IEE told me once that he do exactly the same:wondering where all the cars on the freeway are going.

What you described as food pickiness is not a characteristic of 4DSi either, since 4D is mastery. Being too peculiar in matters is often more present in 1D functions (even PoLR) since 1D means being experienced just in first person, without being able to adapt or use the function appropriately according situations considering the rest of external elements.

Plus, most sensor types, especially Sensing lead are much more experiential, which is what you were describing in the other thread about the girl having ideas about stuff without any previous experience to support her decisions.

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Catastrophizing is characteristic of inferior Ne according to MBTI, which should roughly correspond to suggestive Ne, ideally (though not always, and not all will agree). The person I described fits the concept of Jung's introverted sensation type, MBTI's Si, as well as socionics' concept of Si, so I consider her an Si type in all systems.

As I explained, she makes no indication that she actually imagines where the cars could be going. She simply said that she sometimes wonders, which seems to indicate a vague interest and awe in Ne but does not indicate that it's a strength. Meanwhile, she seems to be always aware of subtle sensations and takes action to adjust those sensations, including taking care of others' physical comfort. It does seem like mastery to me. She is so aware of sensations and past experiences and impressions of sensations that it seems she can easily imagine what a new, never experienced sensation might be like for her, from the impressions alone. As I explained in the other thread, I don't know if she would actually be considered a picky eater, it's just that her relation to sensations was so alien to me that I don't know what to make of it. She is focused on avoiding discomfort, whereas I tend to ignore or hardly notice it and will pretty much take whatever I get in terms of physical experience.

She expresses Fi in a manner similar to her Ne, with a kind of awe or bafflement, and as if asking for input. For instance, she seems to be baffled about people's behaviors and wonders what must be going on that could make a person that way. She does not suggest ideas of her own regarding people's feelings and motivations, but poses it almost as a question. She gives the impression of someone who is vaguely interested in people and has difficulty understanding them, but tries or wants to.

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Originally Posted by isptn

I'm not sure I agree. Somehow I just don't see Ne PoLR types worrying about all the things that could have been or could be and wanting to consider multiple options. Meanwhile, SLIs do seem to worry and catastrophize sometimes, imagining things that could go wrong. They also seem interested in imagining what's out there in the world. The thing about wondering where all the cars on the freeway are going actually came from an SLI. She seems intrigued by all the possibilities and complexities, which she doesn't actually suggest herself but seems to wonder or ask for. My response to that was to say it sounded like it would be information overload.

I don't know. At this point I'm sure I'm a Sensor, so I must be either Si or Se. I have not been finding Si at all relatable. But I don't know about Se either. But how you defined Ne Vulnerable doesn't sound different from what I described, especially sticking to what I know. I don't try to connect the dots or make guesses, I just stick with what I actually know.

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I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas from or what definitions you're using. Ne vulnerable types are able to *consider* different possibilities but they see them in a generally negative light - they prefer to "stay on track" using Ni, which limits possibilities. And Ni is of course about perceiving danger or negative consequences.

Ne is about novelty, change, and new possibilities, so like @Syrup said, Ne valuing types are very much open to new possibilities and don't see them as negative like Ne vulnerable types do. The suggestive function is something you have a generally positive attitude towards.

"Sticking with what you know" and not making guesses sounds like low or cautious Ne, whether valued or not.

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Originally Posted by thehotelambush

I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas from or what definitions you're using. Ne vulnerable types are able to *consider* different possibilities but they see them in a generally negative light - they prefer to "stay on track" using Ni, which limits possibilities. And Ni is of course about perceiving danger or negative consequences.

Ne is about novelty, change, and new possibilities, so like @Syrup said, Ne valuing types are very much open to new possibilities and don't see them as negative like Ne vulnerable types do. The suggestive function is something you have a generally positive attitude towards.

"Sticking with what you know" and not making guesses sounds like low or cautious Ne, whether valued or not.

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I'm kind of confused by your post because your first sentence implies you disagree with what I wrote, but the rest suggests you agree.

Suggestion: Don't take definitions from mbti to type ppl in socionics. You'll do typing process unnecesarily complicated and prone to mistype.

Socionics have plenty of theory about IEs and detailed type descriptions from various authors.

Finally, Si in mbti match hardly Si in socionics. Se in mbti take concepts which would be Si in socionics. So be aware of it.

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Originally Posted by Syrup

Suggestion: Don't take definitions from mbti to type ppl in socionics. You'll do typing process unnecesarily complicated and prone to mistype.

Socionics have plenty of theory about IEs and detailed type descriptions from various authors.

Finally, Si in mbti match hardly Si in socionics. Se in mbti take concepts which would be Si in socionics. So be aware of it.

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Yeah, I'm aware of that. I just don't like the idea of there being two different versions of the functions, I feel like they are probably both attempts at describing the same thing. At its core, Si is introverted/subjective sensation, and that should exist separate from any and all attempts to describe it. That said, there are differences in the descriptions between MBTI and socionics that can't be ignored, hence why I say they should ideally correspond but that won't always be the case.

I would just try to forget about mbti entirely; I feel like people get too mixed up when they start to subconsciously bring in mbti concepts when considering socionics. even small inaccuracies start to compound themselves over time when that happens. socionics depends a lot on having relatively narrow construction of functions

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Originally Posted by isptn

Yeah, I'm aware of that. I just don't like the idea of there being two different versions of the functions, I feel like they are probably both attempts at describing the same thing. At its core, Si is introverted/subjective sensation, and that should exist separate from any and all attempts to describe it. That said, there are differences in the descriptions between MBTI and socionics that can't be ignored, hence why I say they should ideally correspond but that won't always be the case.

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I don't even know if sensation is the right word for the dichotomy.. I like what Socionics does in Russia/Ukraine etc, which is to call introverted sensing sensing, and to call extraverted sensing force, which is much more appropriate.

But, we've got the labels that we have, and although they could be better, they're convenient enough.

I suppose you could think of it like the word subway, it can mean the thing you eat or the thing you take a ride in underground, Socionics and MBTI are like this, different meanings for the same word etc.

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Originally Posted by thehotelambush

Yeah, definitely. My LSI mother does this ALL the time. And feeling the need to lock your doors all the time when you live in a very safe suburb.

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My new roommate, ILE, is out of town for the week for a good reason, but she kinda told me about the plans for the trip in passing, nothing like the kind of formal telling that I would do... and we didnt have much of a goodbye cos she kinda shrugged it off ('Eh, I'll see you soon'; me thinking: 'er, in 5 days!').
I had a passing idea to write her a little 'safe travels!' note by the coffee maker for her to see when she got up super early this AM to make the flight -- my EIE roommate last sem loved those gestures :) -- but nope, that's not what's called for here.
Anyway, being Ne POLR, when it was just me in the house this morning I didn't trust that she was really, truly gone and not about to walk in the door again, having not heard or seen her departure and 'what if... flight gets canceled and she's back here?' So I just did a flight search (local airport is pretty small), figured out her route and checked the flight statuses to imprint in my brain- yes, she reached her destination, and won't be back til Friday.
LOL...

So you want to keep secrets around alphas... wise move.


It is probably not negative but more along the lines with "I refuse to be side tracked on terms of decision unless it provides very good rationale for the future." So ESI's are willing to corrupt informational integrity for their convictions while LSI's will not think about moves people might make in their ethical viscinity while they are conducting their operations.

>has a totally common problem that almost everyone experiences in their life
>oh my god I would have never guessed that other people think/feel the same way about this

meanwhile I'm sitting here thinking how it's very difficult to have totally unique thoughts that haven't been thought before by countless of other individuals on this planet, so I'm chasing that high of finding any form of discovery.

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Originally Posted by dead account

>has a totally common problem that almost everyone experiences in their life
>oh my god I would have never guessed that other people think/feel the same way about this

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"This advice/instruction manual is written in the general second person, addressed to 'you.' It's not personalized enough to me. I don't want to engage w/ it."


Yeeeeah....

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Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington

What are some examples of Ne polr?

Something I was thinking might be Ne polr: An ISFj was trying to explain a situation by repeating facts a few times, and I responded, yes, I understand that but I interpreted that differently, which she did not seem to take well at all. I think that was an example of Ne polr.

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I think this is also in part Fi-Ti miscommunication. You weren't hearing or acknowledging receipt of the basics of their decision making (values) but switching to Ti framework. And they are fine with Ti, ime, unless you seem to be using it as an invalidator of their own framework for moving through life.

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Originally Posted by spaciousfreedom

My new roommate, ILE, is out of town for the week for a good reason, but she kinda told me about the plans for the trip in passing, nothing like the kind of formal telling that I would do... and we didnt have much of a goodbye cos she kinda shrugged it off ('Eh, I'll see you soon'; me thinking: 'er, in 5 days!').
I had a passing idea to write her a little 'safe travels!' note by the coffee maker for her to see when she got up super early this AM to make the flight -- my EIE roommate last sem loved those gestures :) -- but nope, that's not what's called for here.
Anyway, being Ne POLR, when it was just me in the house this morning I didn't trust that she was really, truly gone and not about to walk in the door again, having not heard or seen her departure and 'what if... flight gets canceled and she's back here?' So I just did a flight search (local airport is pretty small), figured out her route and checked the flight statuses to imprint in my brain- yes, she reached her destination, and won't be back til Friday.
LOL...

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God. ESI could really get feral LIE to communicate things like when we leave and stuff.

I just left the house when I was really little one day because I figured out there was a world outside and thought it was fabulous and just ran. I might have still been in diapers. My EII mom lost her shit. I was so IN IT and so far away, she had to run back to the house to get the car to chase me down. She said I just looked like joy and freedom were shooting out of my face and was confused about why she was distressed that I was out for a run.

I love that story.

The ILE thing made more sense to me--just going, but afasomeone else thinking in snapshots and wanting to know which snapshot of time I'll be in and won't be in (which day I'm leaving or returning)...I can make myself communicate to them if it is then easier for them to plan their life that way. I'd de-feral for that.

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Originally Posted by nanashi

God. ESI could really get feral LIE to communicate things like when we leave and stuff.

I just left the house when I was really little one day because I figured out there was a world outside and thought it was fabulous and just ran. I might have still been in diapers. My EII mom lost her shit. I was so IN IT and so far away, she had to run back to the house to get the car to chase me down. She said I just looked like joy and freedom were shooting out of my face and was confused about why she was distressed that I was out for a run.

I love that story.

The ILE thing made more sense to me--just going, but afasomeone else thinking in snapshots and wanting to know which snapshot of time I'll be in and won't be in (which day I'm leaving or returning)...I can make myself communicate to them if it is then easier for them to plan their life that way. I'd de-feral for that.

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HILARIOUS story.

Oh yeah, ILE didn't even say which day she'd be back until I asked. Uuuuuuum.

I appreciate the self-deprecation in calling yourself and LIEs feral. One wonders what an equivalent term of...endearment for us Ne PoLRs might be, but I don't think I should think get too attached to the idea of one. Someone in this thread mentioned that having Ne PoLR gives one an obscure sense of humor; I wonder if others would agree with that. Lack of Ne definitely means my jokes tend to be... niche.

Hm.

I'm so glad your mom found you :D -- 'joy and freedom were shooting out of your face' hahaha. That's a memorable description

//
Update: ILE texted a photo of her getting 2nd dose of vaccine (her reason for travel) to me and our landlord whom we're friendly with. I love seeing what I call signs of life from my intuitive friends... XD

It's that they can be quite stubborn in their approach, for example if I try to tell my LSI brother that this did not happen, instead THIS other thing could of happen, he will likely believe his first viewpoint/experience that he saw/witnessed.
After knowing many Ne polr types, mostly ESIs (I do think it will manifest bit different in LSIs but still can be similar) I would best describe their polr as preferring what they already know to be true, and there's no need to really try and look further. The thing is much of the time they actually are good at finding the correct side and more so if they are in touch with their ni, which I do think later on they are able to compensate with ni for ne. Also once I was talking to my ESI friend who was telling me about how she's scared to move out of her moms house. She was telling me all about her troubles and she said to me, "I'm just someone who really struggles with change after something being one way for so long." She also has struggles with writing and has also told me that I'm much better at it, but when I read her writing I always saw it as much less confusing than mine.I guess it can lack indepth ideas as she prefers to not expand a lot on something. How ever she is able to describe things simply which I admire. She also always tells me"I wish I could be good at poetry and I always want to get into reading, but I just don't know where to start."

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Originally Posted by youfloweryourfeast

It's that they can be quite stubborn in their approach, for example if I try to tell my LSI brother that this did not happen, instead THIS other thing could of happen, he will likely believe his first viewpoint/experience that he saw/witnessed.
After knowing many Ne polr types mostly ESIs, I would best describe it as it's what they already know to be true and there's no need to look for more.

The thing is much of the time they actually are on the correct side and more so if they are in touch with their ni, they can be extremely difficult to manipulate for example trying to sway their opinion.

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Well, this for sure is true. I have found it extremely hard to talk an ESI into bed if she didn't have the idea first.

Ohhh lord.

The main one that made me realize I was Ne PoLR, was that I realized I haaaaaaate certain iNtuitive conversations so much I start trying to move on and getting really on edge/snippity with people if they don't follow my lead to change the topic. It's those purely theoretical conversations where you could just sit there all day swirling around possibilities as to what actually happened, or why something happened, or when, where, how, WHATEVER, but there is not actually any PROOF. No concrete conclusion. No evidence. You literally cannot land on a solid answer. "Mighta been this, mighta been that." I'm like...."mighta literally been anything, so let's shut the fuck up and move on and stop wasting our time." I hate it, it drives me crazy. Sometimes I'll be sarcastic and say something extreme for comedic effect while shutting down the conversation but I actually am really getting irritated. If it goes on and on, I will claw someone's fucking eyes out.

Another reason @Alive typing me as IEI is kind of funny. Wonder what explanation you might come up with for this, IEI man.

Hmm...what's another one...sometimes, when having a discussion, someone will mention there being alternate reasons for whatever is being discussed. I want to stay "on topic." "That's not really relevant right now."

I hate movies with abstract endings. Like...no, give us proper closure. Don't give us this shit where we're left to figure it out on our own what was what, because then I'm like "yeah but it could've also been this, or this, or this, or that--" bruh, it literally ruins the entire movie for me.

https://i.gyazo.com/7e628860ea457cb5...01ea5860e6.png

Doing ridiculous and kind of extreme shit to prepare - like adjusting myself to Greek time before moving to Greece by setting all my clocks and time zones to Greek time even though I'm still in the USA. That way, I'm more prepared to go to Greece, since I'm anticipating all the culture shock / changes I'll face. Basically, overcompensating for whatever changes I cannot foresee.

LOL.

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Originally Posted by Lady Leviathan

Sometimes I'll be sarcastic and say something extreme for comedic effect while shutting down the conversation but I actually am really getting irritated.

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I do this but generally, I will joke around while actually getting pissed off. Idk what that is.

But on Ne PoLR, it comes from the HA Ni. Ne PoLR people aren't closed minded fools, they just find constant speculation on possible alternatives to be frivolous or a waste of their time.

ESI does not have time to speculate all the reasons why someone did something they find disgusting, they would much rather be rid of the person quickly so it doesn't waste anymore of their time or resources worrying about them.

LSI does not have time to speculate all the ways someone is different, their personal preferences are of minor importance to the system of logic they are developing.

As for those Ne leads who feel that they can overwhelm Ne PoLRs with their powerful Ne, I've never heard of a xSI feeling inadequate to a Ne lead. Supervision does not seem to work in the way that socionics predicts.

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Originally Posted by Eudaemonia

I do this but generally, I will joke around while actually getting pissed off. Idk what that is.

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iNtolerance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eudaemonia

But on Ne PoLR, it comes from the HA Ni. Ne PoLR people aren't closed minded fools, they just find constant speculation on possible alternatives to be frivolous or a waste of their time.

ESI does not have time to speculate all the reasons why someone did something they find disgusting, they would much rather be rid of the person quickly so it doesn't waste anymore of their time or resources worrying about them.

LSI does not have time to speculate all the ways someone is different, their personal preferences are of minor importance to the system of logic they are developing.

As for those Ne leads who feel that they can overwhelm Ne PoLRs with their powerful Ne, I've never heard of a xSI feeling inadequate to a Ne lead. Supervision does not seem to work in the way that socionics predicts.

---

The ESI-Se female artist that I know lives with her grandmother, and while I've never met the grandmother, everything I've learned about her points to her being IEE. And yet, the ESI-Se doesn't seem to have a problem with living with her. Very puzzling.

Maybe the grandmother is easier to take than the ESI's EIE mother and SEE father.

The ESI-Se barely trusts me, but I've known her for ten years and recently she's said some slightly critical things about her parents. But nothing critical or even opinionated about the grandmother.

Intolerance for relationships with people who are uncertain of their affections toward us. You're either 100000% in, or 100000% out...because we are 100000% in and expect that in return. If you can't make up your mind, we'll make it up for you. I say "we" based on talking with other ESIs and finding that we relate on this topic.

When I say a pun or joke that goes over my LSI friends head he says "Yea, I'm slow." to get me to just spit out what I really mean lol.

My LSI friend also talked to be about learning Muy Thai to be able to defend himself in a mob attack. When I talked to him about a couple ways being attacked by a mob could play out he said to me "Yea you're talking about the possibilties of what would happen, I'm talking about that probability of what would happen."

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Originally Posted by youfloweryourfeast

It's that they can be quite stubborn in their approach, for example if I try to tell my LSI brother that this did not happen, instead THIS other thing could of happen, he will likely believe his first viewpoint/experience that he saw/witnessed.
After knowing many Ne polr types mostly ESIs, I would best describe it as it's what they already know to be true and there's no need to look for more.
The thing is much of the time they actually are on the correct side and more so if they are in touch with their ni, they can be extremely difficult to manipulate for example trying to sway their opinion.

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Oh man, my ESI ex once told me a playstation game worked on her Xbox. We sat there for 30 mins going back and forth about it, I tried to say maybe someone put an xbox game in a playstation case, but all she could say was "Why don't you just believe me?", because it's impossible, that's like saying I bought a big mac at burger king.

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Originally Posted by Lady Leviathan

Intolerance for relationships with people who are uncertain of their affections toward us. You're either 100000% in, or 100000% out...because we are 100000% in and expect that in return. If you can't make up your mind, we'll make it up for you. I say "we" based on talking with other ESIs and finding that we relate on this topic.

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Hahaaaa, when me and my ex were just in the talking phase for awhile she was like "So when are you gonna ask me to be you gf?" I was like 0.0 Well ok then lol.

Also she hated when she would text me a long paragraph and all I said was "K". She HATED that lol.

I'm confused why Ne pisses off Ne PoLRs though.

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Originally Posted by Lord Pixel

I'm confused why Ne pisses off Ne PoLRs though.

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Seems like a waste of time, energy, resources. Pointlessness.

To some extent anyway.

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Originally Posted by Lord Pixel

Oh man, my ESI ex once told me a playstation game worked on her Xbox. We sat there for 30 mins going back and forth about it, I tried to say maybe someone put an xbox game in a playstation case, but all she could say was "Why don't you just believe me?", because it's impossible, that's like saying I bought a big mac at burger king.

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I wouldnt have even had the patience for that much, I wouldve just hung up on you and then sent you video evidence and waited for you to call me and say im right. Im a brat that way. Id just see it as a waste of my time otherwise though. Im not about to sit there and wait to get through a list of "no" answers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Agate

But on Ne PoLR, it comes from the HA Ni. Ne PoLR people aren't closed minded fools, they just find constant speculation on possible alternatives to be frivolous or a waste of their time.

ESI does not have time to speculate all the reasons why someone did something they find disgusting, they would much rather be rid of the person quickly so it doesn't waste anymore of their time or resources worrying about them.

LSI does not have time to speculate all the ways someone is different, their personal preferences are of minor importance to the system of logic they are developing.

As for those Ne leads who feel that they can overwhelm Ne PoLRs with their powerful Ne, I've never heard of a xSI feeling inadequate to a Ne lead. Supervision does not seem to work in the way that socionics predicts.

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Tbf, I have better consideration of possibilities than Ne Leads when it comes to reasons why people may be doing what theyre doing. Ne Leads often still jump to conclusions and assume the worst about others. I wait and gather info / leave things open to further consideration and questioning more. Outside of that, I dont see the value in Ne for much of anything, so I dont care.

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Originally Posted by Lady Leviathan

Seems like a waste of time, energy, resources. Pointlessness.

To some extent anyway.

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Yea but I don't get why this would make someone super angry, maybe annoyed and bothered by pissed off?

Ti PoLR makes someone feel like they are stupid and that could be seen as an insult, and that would piss someone off.

Se PoLR, someone putting pressure on you and getting confrontational I could see how that could piss anyone off not just Se PoLRs.

But Ne PoLR, annoying sure but pissing someone off?

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Originally Posted by Lady Leviathan

I wouldnt have even had the patience for that much, I wouldve just hung up on you and then sent you video evidence and waited for you to call me and say im right. Im a brat that way. Id just see it as a waste of my time otherwise though. Im not about to sit there and wait to get through a list of "no" answers.

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Well this was something that she remembered happening a long time ago so I just tried to see if she remembered it wrong or something, I wish she had video evidence that would have settled it.

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Originally Posted by Lady Leviathan

Tbf, I have better consideration of possibilities than Ne Leads when it comes to reasons why people may be doing what theyre doing. Ne Leads often still jump to conclusions and assume the worst about others. I wait and gather info / leave things open to further consideration and questioning more. Outside of that, I dont see the value in Ne for much of anything, so I dont care.

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I have 4D Ne, although it’s not valued, and I do jump to conclusions (as can be seen by my Ready-Fire-Aim typings), but I’m not committed to the conclusions I form. I’m not married to them.

They’re mainly intended as food for thought. Merely suggestions which others can use as a starting point.

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Originally Posted by Lord Pixel

Yea but I don't get why this would make someone super angry, maybe annoyed and bothered by pissed off?

Ti PoLR makes someone feel like they are stupid and that could be seen as an insult, and that would piss someone off.

Se PoLR, someone putting pressure on you and getting confrontational I could see how that could piss anyone off not just Se PoLRs.

But Ne PoLR, annoying sure but pissing someone off?

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I actually get pissed off when people endlessly come up with alternative possibilities or solutions. A few Ne alternatives are good, but never coming to a conclusion can be fatal. It’s anti-productive. I feel like it destroys resources, because time passes but nothing gets decided.

At least, that’s how I feel about Ne.

I feel like I can (and will) do something about boundless Ne. However, when it come to my PoLR, Si, I just want to avoid it entirely. I’m not looking at this. I want to run away.

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

I actually get pissed off when people endlessly come up with alternative possibilities or solutions. A few Ne alternatives are good, but never coming to a conclusion can be fatal.

At least, that’s how I feel about Ne.

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I can see it being annoying and bothering someone but Ne isn't an insult to someone or a threat to someone so that's why it's hard for me to understand the anger, I guess the anger is just tied to being angry that your time is being wasted. Maybe PoLRs can just cause someone to get angry in general because of the psychological stress.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lord Pixel

I can see it being annoying and bothering someone but Ne isn't an insult to someone or a threat to someone so that's why it's hard for me to understand the anger, I guess the anger is just tied to being angry that your time is being wasted. Maybe PoLRs can just cause someone to get angry in general because of the psychological stress.

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I think that PoLRs are problematic because they are something that we’re not good at dealing with, and we know we’re not good at dealing with them.

They reveal our weaknesses for all to see.

Not everyone gets angry at having their weaknesses brought to light, but anger can be a better response sometimes than giving up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

I think that PoLRs are problematic because they are something that we’re not good at dealing with, and we know we’re not good at dealing with them.

They reveal our weaknesses for all to see.

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Then the anger is more irrational, just a reaction from psychological stress and insecurity rather than the actual IE itself causing the anger. Cuz like I said there's an available insult with Ti PoLR and Se pressure can make anyone angry including Se PoLRs. I can see Si PoLR being frustrating but someone going on about details makes an Si PoLR angry? I just don't see how that would do that, maybe frustrated. Ni PoLR is the hardest for me to understand, maybe it would make someone confused. Anyway, Lady leviathan said Ne makes her want to scratch someone's eyes out, I'm just lost as to how someone daydreaming up a bunch of baseless ideas causes somebody to want to do that, unless PoLR just causes an irrational anger in us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

I have 4D Ne, although it’s not valued, and I do jump to conclusions (as can be seen by my Ready-Fire-Aim typings), but I’m not committed to the conclusions I form. I’m not married to them.

They’re mainly intended as food for thought. Merely suggestions which others can use as a starting point.

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Yeah. I dont like this when it's done with humans because it can at times be so damaging. I'm more cautious and play it safe. "If you dont have enough info, don't conclude anything at all." I think it's important to be that way in general, but especially with human beings, since feelings are involved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lord Pixel

I can see it being annoying and bothering someone but Ne isn't an insult to someone or a threat to someone so that's why it's hard for me to understand the anger, I guess the anger is just tied to being angry that your time is being wasted. Maybe PoLRs can just cause someone to get angry in general because of the psychological stress.

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Personally, I really only start going past irritation/annoyance when someone pushes and doesn't respond to my attempts to shut it down. Just keeps on going and going.

I'd say that's accurate, yes, the psychological stress part.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lord Pixel

Yea but I don't get why this would make someone super angry, maybe annoyed and bothered by pissed off?

Ti PoLR makes someone feel like they are stupid and that could be seen as an insult, and that would piss someone off.

Se PoLR, someone putting pressure on you and getting confrontational I could see how that could piss anyone off not just Se PoLRs.

But Ne PoLR, annoying sure but pissing someone off?

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Fair

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lord Pixel

Yea but I don't get why this would make someone super angry, maybe annoyed and bothered by pissed off?

Ti PoLR makes someone feel like they are stupid and that could be seen as an insult, and that would piss someone off.

Se PoLR, someone putting pressure on you and getting confrontational I could see how that could piss anyone off not just Se PoLRs.

But Ne PoLR, annoying sure but pissing someone off?

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I start off annoyed, but if someone keeps going, I do get pissed off. I get like "cut the bullshit" basically. Idk.

@Lord Pixel
They think Ne is manipulation. It also gives perspective to their preconceptions and threatens their ego and sense of reality

Inability to admit you were wrong or that both of something can be true and that doesn't make u more wrong. this is kinda why so many LSIs are power hungry assholes and ESIs get arrogant and snooty as well but they are usually too ethical to not seek power like LSIs. this can even make them more dangerous though as they could try to sneak around outside of the rules more than LSI will maybe because they think they have a right too if their Fi was violated enough or depending on how healthy the ESI is.

somebody pointed out that 'Umbridges' are often LSI- yes there are a lot of LSE Umbridges too and I still think Umbridge is LSE-Si but I've met some LSIs that lust for power above all else. that they hide it behind a compassionate and Fe valuing nice guy facade doesn't really change that fact.

They subconsciously always expect everybody to go along with what they said like a cult leader. weak against possibilities and always needing to be right. I get into fights with my LSI semi-bf about this. the reverse is how a lot of ILE men can often come across as too weakly beta males, like the ability to cut down thru the myriad of possibilities the way a machete helps u see through the vines is a positive side of Ne polr. but then the Ne polrs ruin it by masturbating themselves too much over a single point or congratulating themselves when they don't have enough pieces of the puzzle yet.

A good example of Ne-PoLR is being chronically depressed and not being able to imagine your life being different than it currently is. Every good thing in life seems impossibly out of reach and there’s nothing you can do in the short-medium term to improve things. People will tell you to get out of your comfort zone and try something different but you already know what the outcome’s going to be and that it isn’t worth your time

There are many words I can use for describing ESI, but "Fun" is obviously not one of them. Their Ne is suck.

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Originally Posted by Averroes

A good example of Ne-PoLR is being chronically depressed and not being able to imagine your life being different than it currently is. Every good thing in life seems impossibly out of reach and there’s nothing you can do in the short-medium term to improve things. People will tell you to get out of your comfort zone and try something different but you already know what the outcome’s going to be and that it isn’t worth your time

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I hate to come along and be the one to be like "no, you're wrong," but this is actually just the hopelessness symptom of depression, which every depressed type experiences...there are lessons on this in suicide prevention programs, in uni psychology classes, and everything...it also ties in with anhedonia...I hope you feel better.

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Originally Posted by Shazaam

ESIs get arrogant and snooty as well but they are usually too ethical to not seek power like LSIs.

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This is kind of assuming that seeking power is unethical, is it not? I mean, power is a form of protection, too. It can be sought, and used, in perfectly ethical ways. That is even part of ESI-LIE's stereotypical dynamic: LIE businessman type is influenced to do things in more ethical ways because of ESI.

I think I experience Ne PoLR with my artwork. Too many ideas, too many possibilities...which then results in me lacking autonomy by needing someone else to narrow it down. I get overwhelmed by possibilities, like I am drowning in them (Ne) and cannot see which one will yield the "best" financial outcome, or is the most efficient idea to work on (Te). Asking the dual, who has Ne demo and Base Te, is the perfect remedy...as long as the input has 0 relevance to the aesthetics, because of their Si PoLR. I mean, my poor LIE learned what leg warmers were and then described them as warrior gear. Keep it based on things like consumer data.

some more or less typical traits of Ne in superego:
suspicious, simplistic understanding of people, situations and motivations, disturbed by innuendo or nuance, can have a tendency to assume they're on the wrong end of a joke, nervous when others evaluate their inner life or their psychological profile, negativism towards what is new, exotic or different, surface-level judgments of people (based on their looks or achievements instead of their more subtle traits or personality, for example), considering alternatives instead of just doing what is immediately clear to them tires them and is difficult, problems with evaluating the potential capabilities of something, tendency to feel ''betrayed'' or misled by the complexities of people, when people show new sides of themselves, finds ''what if'' scenarios and fantastical speculation about what could be annoying

An example of Ne POLR I see a lot in LSIs is if they are in a rut, they have a hard time seeing alternative routes to get out of it. For example, most of the LSIs I have met seem to have a long list of jobs they have done but only a few had long-term viable careers. It’s not they aren’t/weren’t capable, it just seemed more of a matter of not planning for unforeseen circumstances/contingency planning.

ESIs, on the other hand, know how to buffer better because they use their people skills to maintain connections (Fi) and to get what they need so it usually seems like a smoother ride for them.

Caveat: I mean Fe base is usually good at making connections but can be shaky at maintaining them.

Ne polr is more like inability to brainstorm and know ways out of circumstances. Unless they see it work in action, it remains outside of their abilities. Lots of pounding salt for no reason.

IEE might be a chaotic sh*storm when unhealthy, but at least they can figure out some novel way of surviving. Those 100 open computer tabs has some purpose. Ne polr is like, the definition of insanity.

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Originally Posted by timber

Ne polr is more like inability to brainstorm and know ways out of circumstances. Unless they see it work in action, it remains outside of their abilities. Lots of pounding salt for no reason.

IEE might be a chaotic sh*storm when unhealthy, but at least they can figure out some novel way of surviving. Those 100 open computer tabs has some purpose. Ne polr is like, the definition of insanity.

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If we are talking textbook definitions...Ne PoLR is not the inability to brainstorm, it's just getting overwhelmed by the possibility and experiencing a loss of autonomy in choosing one. The inability to know which possibility to choose. It doesn't mean you can't see options, it means you can't estimate the potential each option has.

What you are describing is more along the lines of 1D Te issues as well, though. Like...you know you have to do uni, work, get a car, get car insurance, and a bunch of basic life shit like this. This is your to do list. You can sit there and think, "I could do this first, or that first, or this first, ir that first..." you have all these options, but can't figure out what the most efficient option is.

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Originally Posted by Pink Bear

If we are talking textbook definitions...Ne PoLR is not the inability to brainstorm, it's just getting overwhelmed by the possibility and experiencing a loss of autonomy in choosing one. The inability to know which possibility to choose. It doesn't mean you can't see options, it means you can't estimate the potential each option has.

What you are describing is more along the lines of 1D Te issues as well, though. Like...you know you have to do uni, work, get a car, get car insurance, and a bunch of basic life shit like this. This is your to do list. You can sit there and think, "I could do this first, or that first, or this first, ir that first..." you have all these options, but can't figure out what the most efficient option is.

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Very nice distinction there, thanks for catching that. Inability to choose what to do, and leads to your next point, and as soon as I wrote and sent it, I realized there is a lot of one dimensional Te there. I was thinking mostly in terms of IEE Ne in relation to ESI Ne polr, because it's a intertype I'm personally more familiar with.

The rules change slightly for a LSI logics type.

I'd say the big difference is probably more about ethics between the two, but I wonder how ILE would fix that?

Circling back, IEE also has issues prioritizing logistics, (downstream unhealthy movement). Some of the major quadra disfunction happens here. You neglect that thing and it breaks and it leads to another thing breaking and so. I think of it like my chainsaws, if I neglect one broken component, then it leads to something else breaking and so on.

Focusing on Ne polr there is a lot of standing still while moving so to speak.

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Originally Posted by timber

Very nice distinction there, thanks for catching that.

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Tbh it's easy when you are living it, lol...I mean, this is basically just describing my life. Lol

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Originally Posted by Pink Bear

If we are talking textbook definitions...Ne PoLR is not the inability to brainstorm, it's just getting overwhelmed by the possibility and experiencing a loss of autonomy in choosing one. The inability to know which possibility to choose. It doesn't mean you can't see options, it means you can't estimate the potential each option has.

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Cannot be explained better than this.

And often all of this is accompanied by moments of anxiety that only end when the individual makes a clear-cut decision. Usually, when external factors limit his choices, he can even feel reassured. And this is quite visible in both ISTjs and ISFjs.

An ESI friend of mine was undecided whether to continue university or start a job for which she had sent curriculum. She felt a lot of anxiety at the thought that she might lose the chance to make money right away and at the same time she didn't know if it would be the right choice or not. Shortly after, her request was rejected and she felt liberated: "at least now I have no choice but to continue university. I feel much better."
So, XSI might consider these possibilities, but suffer the choices at the same time.

Ne PolR is not directly connected to lack of imagination etc. There are a lot of Ne polR (like myself) that have a lot of different ideas, likes writing etc. Its just that with their "real" life they want a clear path to follow.

well yeah you kind of have to keep telling them that if you try this out, it will be fine. I have a hard time making decisions with them because I'll be bringing 5 other options, and they just stare at me blankly not saying anything. so I guess their dual helps them by narrowing it down and explaning in depth why this is a good decision. at least this is what my eie mom did to my lsi brother when he wouldn't get a job.

I think though, I'd rather be ne polr than se polr. I wish I was more functional in the real world. But I do see IEEs are always able to get by seemingly, and there se role just saves them from the chaos they create.

I hate personality prompts/tell me about yourself sort of questions where the expectation is that you’ll answer with something relatable and funny like “i’m a coffee addict and love binge watching Netflix shows!”. They feel very alpha

I have noticed something with LSIs and how my demo Ne can kind of help them. For example, LSI might have a very black and white approach to how they see a problem and can be kind of stuck on one trajectory. I try to examine the issue in the big picture and nudge them towards a compromise which allows them to relax. It’s rarely in the form of telling the LSI what to do, but more like bringing in a new idea/perspective as a joke or as a discussion topic.

https://youtu.be/b8vcJM_htvk

A type with Ne PoLR has a difficult time understanding ideas that seem new or novel, especially when it has no tangible effect on their lives.

Sometimes it's the simple things. My friend wanted to talk about all the possibilities involved in some imaginary situation where everyone in the world was born with horns. How people would be bullied over them, how people would be prideful about them, how some would be considered more attractive, plastic surgery, and so on. I hated this conversation and I shut it down immediately because it a) was some hypothetical scenario that aimlessly went over all these possibilities, and b) had 0 relevance to reality or everyday life. The more he went on about it, the angrier I got.

I don't understand things if they're too abstract. I have to ask for a concrete example or else I don't understand because there are too many ways that it can be interpreted.