This had been my suspicion as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlord
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This had been my suspicion as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlord
ah... it is good that you are not an idiot hostage_child. Yes growing up with my conflict definitely had a significant effect on my default social mode of behavior; and I can look at the way I interact in that conflict situation and see it generalize to life and this board clearly. One problem with what is happening here is the subtypes remain undefined, and alot of stupid things are being said on the fundamental thinking processes of ILI. most of the problem comes from people using outdated and incorrect functional models for understanding a type. like the word "te creative"... that term has been in the linguistic trash can ever since this realization which I am about to explain to you. I decided to address ~one~ of your points, (talking to warlord and others now) for a few reasons.... first, to show you just how much I would have to fucking talk to clearly address the issue at hand. Two, that perhaps I may hit like 3 or 5 or 7 birds with one stone on this one. Three, because I am trying to to care less about what morons on this board think.. in a way this is a test of my mental power. Four, because this point you made seemed like the most valid cause of confusion.
If you actually want to discuss this, then read. If you just want to be a dumbass, then go talk to someone else. This is all I have to say to you. k
This is basically how it goes, and I will explain this in a number of different ways so you can pick which type of explanation is most readily understandable. ILI-Ni has (Te) thinking as a collecting function which creates a coherent impression organized by Ni. After Ni organizes these atomic parts the system is left as a wholistic Fi impression, the coherence of which suggests further transformation. This is what you are seeing me display; and when I am speaking emotions, it means that I don't feel like explaining something which could take about 10 pages to explain, so I am using a blanket statement to convey a general sense of meaning. I could explain it, I understand it in my mind.. I am just not. k?. With ILI-Te the information transformation occurs in an opposite direction... from internal reality into external reality; Fi impressions are sifted through via Ni and compared as Te states of relational affairs. This creates an awareness of possible flows of time relevant to the subjective impressions of the viewer. The ideal flow of circumstances is chosen in the name of the preservation of Fi, and is a synthesis of what is most agreeable in a Te relational sense. (again, preservation vs. adaptation as I talked about in the previous post)
K, that is a general overview. here is the functional readout:
ILI-Ni: Si>Te/Fe>Ni/Ne>Fi/Ti>Se
ILI-Te: Ne>Fi/Fe>Ni/Si>Te/Ti>Se
K?
What I have just shown you has been theoretically proven.
one process starts with Te awareness, the other ends with it.
So you can see how the idea of a "creative function" is kind of idiotic. The word creative will mean something different in two different situations, depending on whether the system at hand is progressive or regressive.
Now onward to describe the ILI-Ni thought process in specific language to make it even more clear, and to show precisely how this applies to my behavior.
ILI-Ni mentally processes relations (Te) between atomic parts of information (Si) (Si>Te) into coherent circumstances (Fe) in the name of the dissipation of this systems internal conflict (Ni). The success of this process (Ne) is interpreted as an impression of consonance or dissonance (Fi). The consonance or dissonance of this system is determined by the wholistic relations of atomic parts within this system (Ti), and the extent to which these relations are altogether coherent (Se).
K, see that up there? Now... when I make emotional sweeping statements, it is because I am making a comment on the general consonance or dissonance of what is happening, and I am not taking the time to draw up the specific details on things. I usually do this for a few reasons, which I mentioned earlier and you completely ignored. 1: what is being discussed is too stupid for me to warrant fully analyzing it by breaking it down into atomic parts, as I am doing now. Look at how much time this is taking me?. 2: no one will listen to me if I do do this 3: If I do not have the motivation and energy to do this efficiently, I feel like I cannot do it at all.
See what I am doing now? I have taken like 20 minutes to specifically detail my thought process. I have started with atomic parts Si/Te and created a coherent impression Fe/Ni as described in the ILI-Ni functional process. This is typically a process which occurs internally; and in situations where the subject matter is simple, it can be easily transfered into reality or detailed / broken down into atomics facts; and from here there is a language created which can be defined and shared within a short period of time. However, i do not do this for everything; and particularly on this board or in complex situations. If the system at hand is too large; the atomic facts too many, then it would take like I said at least 10 pages to properly construct a way of speaking to even begin to say something.
Often times when my Ti is not making sense, it is because the system has not been fully elaborated on.
This is, again, giving the false impression of poorly developed Ti. Essentially it IS poorly developed Ti, but this is not happening because of a functional/mechanical issue.. but because of a situational / content issue.
The subject matter is too elaborate and complex to be talked about.
As you can see with the functional readout, for ILI-Ni Ti is a wholistic relation of the atomic parts of the system at hand. Ti will, linguisticly, be expressed as arbitrary self-affirmation. You can imagine if you were listening to a song, but you only heard the music playing half of the time.. the other half was silent, and the song was never "fully written"... the song will make no sense. This does not mean the song couldn't make sense; or that what you do hear are bad riffs, but it just means that it has not yet been fully written. It is the same with my Ti. In the ideal state of language, ILI-Nis Ti would make sense because every word used would be fully clarified and fleshed out first. Again, not possible in this situation for two reasons: the complexity of the task at hand, and personal motivation / energy constraints.
K, there you have it. I have just coherently explained all your gripes and delusions about socionics and how you are confused on my type.
If you do not get it still, then go-fuck-yourself and leave me alone.
I am not going to bother to explain that one out for you.
If you have an opinion about my type, please shut the fuck up about it because you have me fantasizing about sawing your head off and playing with your blood... not even joking, you don't realize how this gets to me. It makes me feel like going on a killing spree
I don't think most ESEs realize when people do not like them.... From my point of view (as well as the point of view of an IEI and ILI friend) they're in a delusional fantasy world resembling something along the lines of that Disney World ride "it's a small world after all" ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by calenwen
Thank you crazedrat. This was the post I was looking for. I can let this thread die now... sheesh.Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedrat
@ hoodrat- i think the text convo is cute and im sure the ILI is secretly loving it deep down... keep up the good :Se::Fi: work! haha
@logos- wtf liveandletdie?! u broke my heart... i thought we made huge steps in our relationship logos... i guess unconscious duals means nothing to u! :( oh yeah btw one thing ive noticed with u- just cuz u dont think sumthin is funny doesn't mean it isn't funny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodrat
When did we start talking about ESEs...?
idk but that post is beautiful hahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by calenwen
Typo. I understand that latter part, but that will not stop me from pointing out something which I fail to see the full humor in.Quote:
Originally Posted by liveandletlive
thats fine, but u shudn't say that its not funny just cuz u don't find it funny. on a lighter note... LOVE U LOGOS!!!!!!! :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos
muahahahaha ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by jxrtes
I would think that a voicing of my clear likes or dislikes (:Fi:) would be something that Gamma quadra would appreciate or understand?Quote:
Originally Posted by liveandletlive
oh no i actually i like that u said that ... that wasnt what bothered me. it bothered me that u said it wasn't funny though cuz sum people may find it funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos
I found it funny.
No, you obviously don't understand jack shit. Which is the reason why can't type yourself, or anyone else correctly. Try learning the basic socionics first.Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedrat
Be quiet. No you didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Look at the shiny object instead:
http://static.bethsoft.com/blog/bright_shiny.jpg
shiny! shiny! ooooo!Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos
ME RUN INTO SHINY THING
*runs into shiny thing*
<BANG!>
*unconscious*
hahaha. oh, i guess that's all you can tell me is it? not even one specific detail on why I am wrong? i like your reply "try learning basic socionics". First instinct: reiterate what he has read. Here is basically your problem- you prefer to have others do your thinking for you; and then use their thinking to the best of your ability. the first thing you look at when you read something is the stamp it has on it. I write something, and you don't recognize or see your accepted stamp of approval on it, so what i have to say is thrown in the trash can. the note is not even read properly. (assuming you could read it properly. I really don't think so)
well, in any case, if not being "ILI" means (just for the purposes of this board and what ILI is thought of as here... this is not reality) ahem.. MEANS that I don't have to mentally associate myself with a fuckwad like you, then I guess I'm alright with that right now. There are only like 5 intelligent people on this entire forum anyway, and none of them are going to be questioning my type. So i guess i can handle not having a proper identity to speak from with the rest of you. because i don't really need to speak with you.. it will accomplish nothing. so in conclusion, I'm done here
What I have written up there is a different way of notating what we already know.Quote:
Originally Posted by jxrtes
It is an atomic functional notation. It is useful for seeing the overall relations between funtions without being confused by muddling words. I will try and explain how this relates to other ways of thinking about socionics.
ILI-Ni: Si>Te, Fe>Ni, Ne>Fi, Ti>Se
The first thing which needs to be understood about this, is that a functions strength (or coherence) takes on a dual nature relative to its paired function (Si>Te is a function pair). Si atomic objects are transformed into Te relations. Think of the transformation which is occuring. There is a focus on the development of Te relations from objects Si; but where this focus is directed toward the development of Te, it is directed away from the development of Si. Si is not expanding. It is kind of an a-priori function here. It has not undergone a transformative process; and its role in the transformative process of Te makes this impossible for it. because of this it will remain relatively incoherent. Te will be a function which is oppositely coherent- but coherent within the context of Si.
Where the emphasis is on generating Te relations between Si, there is equally no emphasis on generating Si perceptions. Si becomes a "starving" function because it is "feeding" Te.
A real life example of this would be if I had an elaborate understanding of enneagram, and how the system of enneagram works... how each little part relates to the others, what they mean in terms of enneagram, etc. ..., but what I didn't realize was that enneagram did not completely explain personality.. and that there was alot more to human beings than just enneagram.
...I could explain alot more if you're actually interested.
inserted & editedQuote:
Originally Posted by jxrtes
No. The problem is that you obviously don't understand subtypes. And of course the miserably failing logic that follows from your lack of understanding of the subtypes, results in that everything you wrote is just complete bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedrat
You obviously have no idea, how I think either. So how about not telling me how I supposedly think.
This is not the difference between the subtypes. How about you just read what the subtypes even are.Quote:
ILI-Ni: Si>Te/Fe>Ni/Ne>Fi/Ti>Se
ILI-Te: Ne>Fi/Fe>Ni/Si>Te/Ti>Se
Of course you can create your own ridicilous bullshit theories all you want, and type yourself as the Fairy Queen of Ulan Bator if you want. But in socionics you are an INFp, and socionics types are what this board is about.
The grading of my Masters degree is enough proof of my intelligence ;) And another random-guy-on-the-internet just recently told me that I'm the smartest guy in the world, so there's no other option, I must be.
And btw. nice work on sounding like a schizophrenic the all way through.
essentially, yes. The dominant function line is the same for both subtypes (Fe>Ni), as is the dual function line (Ti>Se). The other two lines are reversed. This is what creates the regressive vs. progressive difference. Once information reaches (Fe>Ni), whether it be drawn from Ne>Fi or from Si>Te... it is in the same form; the difference being it has either been consolidated (in the case of Si>Te) or pruned down (in the case of Ne>Fi) in order to achieve that proper form for (Fe>Ni).
I think you interpreted this transcription wrong. For ILE-Ti, (Ni>Fe) in the first block implies an awareness of possible courses of events (Ni), and that these courses can dynamically combine to affect the integrity of the situation (Fe) (Ni>Fe). By comparing these various impressions of possible states of affairs (Fe), ILE-Ti creates an impression (Fi) of their current deviation from ideal actualization. this impression informs and motivates the ideal course of action (Ne) in the name of relieving the Fi impression from existance (Fi>Ne) and obtaining the ideal circumstance.Quote:
Originally Posted by jxrtes
The ideal circumstance (Se) is defined by the coherent operation of its parts (Ti) (Se>Ti). This coherent operation implies the sound relations (Te) of the elements of the situation at hand (Si) (Te>Si).
The confusion arises from assuming the first function pair in the transaction is the primary emphasis of the equation. This is true with dominant function subtypes (like ILI-Ni above), where a progressive transformation is occuring (For example, with ILI-Ni where an array of Te relations are consolidated into an Fe impression). With a regressive transformation (for example, with ILE-Ti where Fe impressions are regressing into a singular Fi impression), the 3rd block is the creative block.
The difference between the two subtype notations is not a matter of function strength; but more of which function pairs feed into which; and from this, what a function is thought of to mean, or be relevant towards.
i don't understand the point of a conversation like that being in a gamma thread O_o
maybe if you explained....
she sounded kinda hot though...i don't know how im picking up on that. maybe its the part where she's telling you what you SHOULD be doing...i don't know. other than that im lost lol
i'll kill you.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodrat
your conversation wasn't even humorous...it was mundane everyday lovey talk received with indifference
i don't see why he shouldn't get the same sort of criticism and reactions i have gotten for making posts like these. i'll say whatever i feel like i want to say, and ask whatever it is i need to know. i was barely giving him grief and he doesn't seem to take offense to me...not yet anyway...so i figure he'll point out whatever it is he thought was relevant to gamma or socionics in general.
^Chicago?Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos
If you want it to be. Honestly, I have no idea. I just picture-searched shiny object.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elro
So yeah, i'm now slowly remembering how ILIs are a very....different bunch. But different is good.
I've made a couple posts about me (a presumed SEE) starting a relationship with an ILI. It's been a couple weeks now since we've been "together," but i'm not even sure if it's okay for me to use that word (I know she would probably flip out if i did!)
Basically, to sum things up:
*She wants to take baby steps, I want to dive right into this thing.
*She constantly makes inferences that it probably isn't going to last very long, I constantly make inferences that we're going to be together for a long time (e.g. joking about marriage and kids, which makes her FLIP, [note: but it's so much fun to make her flip!]). In these situations her eyes get really wide and she like stares off into nothing and says "You're thinking WAAAY too far ahead again....."
*An example from a conversation today....
Her: I'm not sure you should get your hopes up....
Me: Why??? Don't you like me???
Her: It's not that I don't like you, it's just that I think you like me a lot more than I like you..... (she quickly realizes that this is really mean and hurt my feelings, although I ACT a lot more hurt than I really am, because it's fun and easy to act emotions in front of her)
Me: ....wait....so....you're saying YOU LIKE ME??? <3<3 (i begin hugging her and showing affection)
Her: (tries her best to get away but can't because i'm stronger. PWND.)
*later on I asked her, "Can I get a signed affidavit saying that you like me?" She replied quickly and sarcastically, "I'm not leaving a paper trail...."
But yeah, I know a lot of my uncertainty about us has to do with :Ne: Role Function, and a lot of her hesitance to really establish us as "together" has to do with her :Fe: PolR, but damn, I really can't wait to crack this nut....
I can wait it out though. It's totally worth it and it's not really getting me down. In fact, I like the challenge. Speaking of which, I really really doubt anyone can truly get an ILI to be really emotionally attached other than an SEE (and only then after LOTS of hard work). She said she's dated a few other guys while she's been in town and they've all ran away after a short while or she got weirded out by them or something.... But yeah, it's really fucking hard and I doubt anyone else has this kind of determination or derives this much enjoyment from all the little petty ILI-isms as I do....
It's like I told her on the phone earlier:
"You're not very nice...."
"(defensively) Well, I'm not trying to be mean, it's just that I think you're taking this thing way too fast...."
"Don't worry about it. It actually encourages me when you put up a fight like this"
"BUT I'M TRYING TO DISCOURAGE YOU"
[we both kind of get a laugh at this and I'm reassured because I know that deep down she's a softy]
Yeah... sorry for the long winded rant. Hope yall learned something from it....
honestly, you seem to let off a bit too much Fe for my taste. but who knows, this girl may be more tolerant of Fe than i am. what i am referring to is the sort of teasing on the subject of personal feelings and your saying "it's fun and easy to act emotions in front of her." <<turn off
it seems i have had dialogues like this a few times, and, in the end, it always happens that i want out.
emotional attachment is not our favorite pastime.
and also make sure she never finds that you are writing about her here. public display of emotion seems to cheapen genuine emotion, if it exists.
:Fe: is my demonstrative..... i'm just kidding around when I say that kinda stuff, shesh. It really is your PolR isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by reyn_til_runa
Also, do ILIs usually take things literally as said? I've noticed they have a tendency to be gullible, especially in front of a good actor. I told this ILI i'm talking about that "I was married a few years ago and have 2 children" and she actually believed me for a second! I'm 21 years old and obviously not "one of those types of people".... lol
But yeah, I agree, I probably do give off too much :Fe: for ILI taste, but damn, to be honest you really don't give off hardly any. Getting an affirmation for my unsure :Ne: about a relationship is like PULLING TEETH. I don't expect you to show very much :Fe:, but you gotta show a little.
I expect I'll have to use :Fe: less and less with time as she starts to open up a little more....
And yeah... I noticedQuote:
Originally Posted by reyn_til_runa
[edit:]
By the way, you're the most obvious ILI i've seen on this forum yet. Yeah, I'm sure she'd get really pissed if she found out I was writing about her on this, but I'm sure I could spin it. That's the thing with you ILIs.... you just don't realize the determination and resources we have when it comes to relationships. We're ABSOLUTELY NOTHING LIKE YOU but we love eachother and are partners.... so lets work together :D.
p.s. no joke about the public display of emotion thing.... I was grabbing her booty earlier walking into breakfast and I coulda sworn she was about to break up with me right then and there over the PDA thing. But I'm just so sweet and irresistable who can deny me when I appologise? :)
it's just that information stated as fact is generally taken as fact. although it may be unlikely that you were, in fact, married a few years ago and have two children, i wouldn't tend to dismiss the statement as false purely based on unlikelihood.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodrat
yeah, one thing i've noticed with the SEEs i've spent time with is that given a sort of baseline level of trust and an obvious comfort which results from giving/receiving dual-seeking functions, i naturally will become a bit warmer, or at least, accepting of warmth. in other words, you may be right that she is a softie with you in the privacy of your relationship, but being a softie with or around others is another story.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodrat
Sigh.... that's why I love you guys :).... Keep doing what you do. Life would be seriously way too boring without you.Quote:
Originally Posted by reyn_til_runa
Yup. Agreed 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by reyn_til_runa
i really don't know what to do say about this. except, maybe i'd get annoyed in a conversation like that.
no. not maybe, the whole conversation is really ... annoying.
It can will take a looong time to get an ILI's emotional trust. Certainly months rather than weeks. SEEs can just seem so fun and carefree at times (yes, we know you're quite driven, too) that it's hard to turn to you with Fe matters, such as moods and emotions. The IEI type (more serious? predictable? similar?)seems to get me to trust them with Fe so much easier and faster. Keeping up an emotional barrier while looking out for affirmation that the SEE's interest is persistent just feels...safer. I can definately see initially not relying on the relationship lasting too long and mentally calculating how much it would bother me if everything disappeared at this point. although I highly doubt that the ILI is actually bothered that your apparent interest is greater than hers.
and yes, I've come across the 'i was married and have 2 children' style hoax. Among people I just meet, and people I like, it's nice to turn off the bullshit detectors... and as a result I end up believing a that I was listening to a phone conversation, when in reality no phone call was ever made ;/
Okay listen hoodrat. I have a warning for you. It is this: do not let your awareness of socionics warp the way you act toward her, or you may make things a bit "unnatural" between you two, and to some minor extent take away from the honest interaction of duality. I mean... don't be too aggressive. Aggressive is good... but like, to the point where it's plain unnatural and driven soley by your awareness of your intertype relation with her, this will perhaps play against you. Not that I don't recognize her behavior as something which would indicate she likes you; and something I would pull on a girl to try and goad her into continuing what she is doing.. err, the point is try and think as if you didnt know about socionicsQuote:
Originally Posted by hoodrat
Thanks for the warning, that's exactly what I've been trying to do.... I tend to use socionics more as a retrospective hobby when I'm alone for help with my :Ne:
Maybe? Potentiality? :Ne:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mea
ah... if it is working then don't completely overhaul it, just adjust it minorly.. that would be my initial instinct. but then again, you have a female ILI up there who probably is a better source for this issue
ya. probably right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starfall
From my experience with ILIs, it's taken a very VERY long time to get in on their trusted side to where they really open up to you and share their emotions.... I think I'm perceptive enough of relations (:Fi:) to realize that she does have interest in me and that she really is just kind of "putting me through the test" now, so to speak...
But yeah, I realized quickly that I was taking things way too fast and really did have to tone it done a bit as opposed to some other romances I've been involved with.... (thank god for irrationality or I surely would have "walked my own plank" already!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hostage_Child
:DThanks
SEE ILI duality - bullshit baffles brains?
basicallyQuote:
Originally Posted by Wittmont
I wonder if Aushra Augusta was high on meth while coming up with this duality bullshit. A good romantic relationship is more than having "clicking functions". Did she think that 'effectiveness of relationship = quality of romanticism'?
"The SEE finds it hard to be content with what he has." - :thumbsdown:
"Confrontational behavior does not phase the SEE, whether his reaction is to respond with confrontation or hostility himself, creating an outwards appearance of indifference and unimpressiveness, or trying to calm down the offender/make them feel guilty." - :thumbsdown:
"It fills the SEE with joy to be have many different people competing for his attention and affection." - :thumbsdown:
"An SEE views material objects as well as people in terms of how they can be used to achieve his goals." - :thumbsdown:
"The SEE can easily create sentiments of closeness and kinship, only to completely change these sentiments down the road. An SEE could be hanging out with a person (A) and act like the person's best friend, yet talk with another friend (B) and show sentiments of extreme distaste towards person 'A' in order to gain acceptance with 'B'." - :thumbsdown:
"He appreciates those who are good at thinking about things to do, new ways to do things, and especially a unique activities to draw people together. However, the SEE does not hold these abilities in high regard in and of themselves, but only to the degree to which these ideas and strategies can be implemented to serve his EGO block." - :thumbsdown:
"SEE can become very upset when people are late for unclear reasons and behave in other independent and unpredictable ways. This gives them the feeling of hanging in the air and general uncertainty about the future. Being action oriented people, this is difficult to bear." - :thumbsdown:
"SEE doesn't like having to weight out pros and cons or make the "right" or "proper" decision." - :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
"School life seethes around them, they know how and love to be in the center of attention." - :thumbsdown: Clingy bitch.
:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:Quote:
1. The player who is always busy conquering people of the opposite sex and bragging of his or her social and sexual prowess.
2. The aggressive trainer who likes to whip people into shape physically or socially and make them be more effective in society.
Seriously, I only think I would be able to have a superficial friendship with this type. I'd much rather have an extroverted intuitive feeler as a SO. I think I'd go mental if I had to live with my polar opposite.
Ah, you rather think and assume than test it out in real life? hmm they assumed the earth was flat and centre of the universe...Quote:
Originally Posted by SmileyMan
I had the same assumptions like you do. And you are right, on paper your dual is nothing you really like, rather someone you would like to avoid.
But there are a lot of things happening mentally when you start interacting with your dual. And that's really great. In contrary to your conflictor of which you constantly think, I never say those things what a bullshit. With your dual you think, I never say those things, why didn't I think of that before or, hey what a pleasant surprise.
Next to that you constantly feel comfortable, completely accepted, and even protected, because your dual is someone who is opposite of you, but in a constructive supplementive way. As opposed to your conflictor who just works against you.
As you see it's difficult and vague to explain, but everyone here who has experienced a dual, will tell you it's good. While everyone who reads and assumes, will tell you it's bad.
So it's time to meet a dual '-)
Yeah, that description doesn't sound so hot, but SEEs IRL are awesome. (Provided of course that they're a well-rounded mature person, but that goes without saying for any type.)
Duality doesn't necessarily click from the beginning, although it can. It takes time, and the relation is one that gets better with time, not one that wavers with little direction. My best friend is my quasi-identical, although he is of an opposing quadra, I still feel rather comfortable around him. We've been best friends for 14 years, however I can't say there has been much growth. I can say with certainty that duality just keeps growing, I've seen it from experience.
Would a SEE be willing to discuss things such as politics, science and philosophy? Listen to my ramblings and not dismiss them and boring and just say "yeah whatever. Let's go hang out with Tyrell and Queen"? The ideal SO would be one who engages my mind - and the other way around. I don't want to be dependent on a 3rd. party to entertain her.
I want an SO whose interests at home are more than watching the fat idiot Oprah, soap operas, cooking dinner and arranging for the next damned birthday - she should read and tell me about the new stuff she has discovered by reading. She should be above mindless banter such as "oh my god, their car is so nice" and "Christina got a boob-job. I wonder how much it costed. She's a slut"
Why are SEEs awesome? The descriptions make them sound like boring, un-imaginative people (regarding things that matter. Coming up with entertainment for social events has nothing to do with imagination), whose only joy in life is being with other people.
What are the greatest differences between an ESFp and an ENFp?
ur not INTp.
No they really don't give a flying fuck about those things especially in the way you're describing them.
Sounds like you're Ti/Fe valuing.
Yes and your status is God, and God is an Alpha, so there is obviously something fishy going on.
Enlighten me.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion
That sounds nice. Could you tell me the differences between an ESFp and an ENFp?Quote:
Originally Posted by aixelsyd
According to the intros to socionics I've read, duality is usually quite tense and difficult in the beginning, more so than f.i. activity or companion.Quote:
Originally Posted by polikujm
1."Confrontational behavior does not phase the SEE, whether his reaction is to respond with confrontation or hostility himself, creating an outwards appearance of indifference and unimpressiveness, or trying to calm down the offender/make them feel guilty." -
2."It fills the SEE with joy to be have many different people competing for his attention and affection." -
3."An SEE views material objects as well as people in terms of how they can be used to achieve his goals." -
4."The SEE can easily create sentiments of closeness and kinship, only to completely change these sentiments down the road. An SEE could be hanging out with a person (A) and act like the person's best friend, yet talk with another friend (B) and show sentiments of extreme distaste towards person 'A' in order to gain acceptance with 'B'." -
1.No, with restrictions
2.No
3.No
1.NOOOO
There is much improvement to bring to this description.
My ILI friend (who is not into socionics) was very critical too when I linked it to him. He knew no SEE at that time, and now, he doesn't want to know any. Fortunately, he has no clue as how to type them !
I have 2 SEE friends. They are fine people.
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by aixelsyd
The SEEs that you likely see, out in public, most often, unfortunately tend to be the opposite of the cream of the crop (crap of the flop or what have you), which is probably why they're so visible, because they're never out of sight somewhere reading or learning anything of value. That being said there are definitely SEEs that can and will articulately discuss things like politics, science and philosophy... but if they were too easy to find the bloody supply and demand curve would sue you.Quote:
Originally Posted by SmileyMan
Sounds like you're INTj.
I know an SEE-ILI couple and it's really bizarre the transformation the SEE (male) goes through when his ILI gf comes around. When she's not around it's the Eller show. But when she shows up he comes way down to earth and he becomes downright smitten.
Smilely man, go watch some episodes of Northern exposure. Fleischman is a ESFP and pretty much the main character. Good show and you will see an example of an ESFP which is prolly a fair bit different then what you expect.
better to base such judgments on experience and not abstract speculation
I know an SEE in medical school who wants to open an HIV/AIDS clinic. I knew a doctor that is a good friend of my ILI step dad (a lawyer) who is probably SEE. He talked to my brother, an IEE, a lot more than he did me, but I was never really sure how to act around him and I was very young at the time. One of my brother's best friends is SEE.
The med student and doctor are very politically inclined. They love to play devil's advocate and get into heated debates. Make no mistake, they are gammas, and the two docs I know are very intellectual in that sense. Sometimes I'd crack a joke at what they were saying, and they'd sorta brush me off and get a little frustrated, like I was wasting their time.
The only real conflict I've been in with an SEE was with my brother's friend a long time ago when he found out that I was smoking. His dad died from lung cancer and he had really strong convictions, but I was kind of a jerk and took up this really nonchalant attitude towards him because he was getting all preachy. He did not like this at ALL. I was just :O :rolleyes: :cool: and he was all :? :mad: :frustrated: :reallymad: :reallymad: :reallymad: until I basically walked away. We just distantly respect each other now.
My brother has a much more gentle and quirky way of getting his personal sentiments across. It's kinda funny sometimes, but it's really not something I can respond to.
I think most of the descriptions of SEEs out there were written by LIIs or EIIs or some other type with unfavorable relations. I wouldn't worry about them too much if I were you. Grab on to that Se and enjoy the ride!
The ILI SEE duality is my favourite duality of all. I like it even more than my own duality.
I can just imagine this flamboyant really outgoing girl who has had a rough life due to all of the assholes she has dated in her time. One day she is sitting on the train and she notices this quiet guy in the corner reading a book, oblivious to everyone else. He is nothing like the guys she is normally attracted to at all. Shes one hot thing who gets guys easily, but there is just something about him she cant ignore. He is so nerdy and awkward and it makes her want him more. On the inside she is more fragile than people realise, and the way he is makes her want to be around him. Strangely though she is not sure she can get this guy, which is odd because she snaps her fingers on the dancefloor and the rugged sporting players surround her. Lets face it, those guys were not intellectual though, and this guys intelligence intimidates her. She realises though that she must try, must persue. She must have him and she doesn't care what her friends think.
I dont know why, but to me this duality seems so fantastic. I just love the idea of some nerdy guy getting the girl.
Im going to the football with an ILI and his LIE girlfriend today. I really love the guy. He is like the rock of Gibraltar, hes always the same temprament very reliable. This ILI is not overly nerdy, he wears glasses and is a lawyer, but he is very confident and intelligent and hes happy to joke around as well.
Legend :D
I also find this duality charming and very cute especially when the girl is SEE and the guy is ILI, Meatburger describes it best. I know 2 SEE girls one is Se subtype and the other is Fi. They both have a tendency to draw everyone around them because they are so fun and cool and have this grounded authenticity to them.
The Se subtype loves Ni guys, she's a sucker for IEIs. She's currently dating an IEI, She's always commenting on how she loves that he's in touch with his feminine side which I find entertaining. The Fi subtype is the kind of girl that can make even the most socially awkward guy feel comfortable and welcomed, it's just something that she does effortlessly.
Anyway, I love the concept of this duality, I find it to be the most romantic of all because it isn't a cheesy love story. It's surprising and entails the wild hotness that is SEE suddenly being drawn to this quiet off beat ILI who's not used to getting attention from anyone but wins the jackpot by having the coolest dual of all.
I know this thread is old as archaea, but I was reading through it, identified with the 'crazed' search for an ESFP and only an ESFP, and had insight occur to me that seemed to answer my problem of flirting with my ESFP crush who is always looking around in the spotlight at his ESFX friends.
Insight: i have found myself possessing an unusual natural flirting behavior, and I think it works well in attracting ESFps--I allow myself to be observed (I know that sounds weird) in my heavily perception/new information focussing.i.e. I do not stare at the fascinating ESFP.
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...popcornso0.gif
I show that I am confident and inquisitive. Instead of feeling a pull to look to the left and ignoring it because of polar :Fe: and discomfort around people, I look where my attention was attracted. i see something--some object or interaction.It impresses a thought on my brain.Etc. I consider it. i allow the flow of interesting data to attract my attention. I am treating the world like I treat books when I am studying them.
I just realized, I think this is allowing one's :Ni: and the (to ESFPs) attractive fact that one is a perceiver first and foremost to be observed. We come off as so harsh and nerdy and socially awkward/unsociable sometimes that I think it's harder to see an 'in' with someone who's learnt to deal with the world (like imaginative Walter Mitty) by putting on the General uniform of :Te:.
Yes SEE is drawn to autistic looking people :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by nanashi
Often it is said, you don't find an SEE, the SEE finds you. And I think it's true in my experience...
Haha, I thought about that too when I was pissed of everything around me. Must be a nice place to chill... :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedrat
That's totally true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarno
Even if you can't describe an SEE's typical day, how do you foresee a stereotypical ILI would have to start being more fluid in her daily life schedule-wise, or otherwise, to allow an amalgamation of her own activities and those of an SEE to occur? Suggestions? Do you think the interaction will be nearly seamless and not involve much mental work and rearrangement--some automatic plasticity I wouldn't need to prepare for much?
This stems from some concern over my recent personal acknowledgment that I don't make much time at all for fun in my life. I am in my mid-twenties now and am suddenly starting to worry that, with my present kind of activities, I may end up without a partner. Now I like being alone, and I enjoy the tremendous independence from intrusion and demands that some relations can make. I could have a perfectly enjoyable and rich and beautiful life, but I would like to obtain some perks of a very independent but loyal long-term relationship. I worry that I may not get there without some attention to my personal life. I am a workaholic (when I value the goal) who avoids drudgery work. Efficiency is my miserly mantra. I would like to date, but I extend out my energy and effort mostly toward education, work, some spiritual pondering, some basic household drudgery, hiding from the outside world and playing on the internet, and a few friendships.I can see how these things could initially be off-putting to an ESFP
I don't much pursue relationships unless I know the other party is interested in me and displays some :Fi:. These have been pleasant but have been catastrophically bad timing with 2 ESFPs and, in the case of the EII, a matter of very different goals and needs. More actual dating may be a step in the right direction.
i'm less favorable toward relationships with non XSFPs now, as a result of several dates with :Fe: or :Si: or :Ti: or :Ne: dominant men either providing no mental stimulation of the type I respond to, no sense of independence and spirit (to me), or no physical attraction (great-looking, but definitely for someone else).
start dating an SEE and figure it out for yourself.
Duality is without a doubt the best relationship, if it still not works for you, become a hermit.
lol. continues with operation dualguyinmyclassFall 2010
That's more like it. Hunt them down, take of their scalp and collect their skulls!Quote:
Originally Posted by nanashi
Typical day for typical young-ish SEE:
make money
do community volunteering
get drunk and party with their friends
buy shoes or clothes
get drunk and party some more with their friends
make more money
go clubbing or to a party
get drunk at the party
make out with a random girl at the party
drive through a neighborhood at midnight listening to music turned to full volume
get drunk and party with their friends
get drunk and party some more with their friends
Removed, thanks for the feedback
Maybe she wanted to go back to the mountains to bang.
I'm not really seeing how this is strange either?
It sounds like whenever you offered your preferences (live music, fajitas) she took initiative to make it happen. That sounds like SEE-ILI duality to me. She respects your opinion. That's why SEEs like ILIs, they want their insight and knowledge to guide their Se initiative. Trying to pry it out of you is the opposite of passive. Also, because duality strengthens overtime, you probably won't feel the need to have a wealth of ideas once you two spend more time together, she gets to know you, and you start feeling more comfortable offering your opinions (whether they are brilliant or not).
It doesn't have to be socionics related. I mean it's common that girls want to see if the guy has initiative when on a date, it's just a social, gender role thing. I was on a date with an ILE once and she tested me all the time on ideas, "so what do you suggest that we do", and ILEs aren't exactly lacking in this area. It's usually just a stage that you have to get over. When you get to know each other more things usually change.Quote:
Originally Posted by INTrosPect
Yeah, that sounds SEE-ILI to me. if she likes you, she will agree to hang out with you again. LOL someone putting their face 2inches from your own isnt type related..sounds gross.
Post pictures of ILI SEE duals.
I'm curious how the relationship looks from the outside. I was thinking the iron giant might be an example, with Hogarth as the ILI and the Iron Giant as the SEE? Maybe the other way around?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_isUvlzkZPI...iron_robot.jpg
:) pic? Hell, I'll do you one better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89Ee20FKbDE
i have to struggle to refrain from saying my piece on this. a really interesting topic btw, *bump and hide*Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarno
Quote:
Originally Posted by xerx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8WEmRFZO6c
"
As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
I take a look at my life and realize there's nothin' left
‘Cause I've been blastin' and laughin' so long
That even my momma thinks that my mind is gone
But I ain't never crossed a man that didn't deserve it
Me be treated like a punk, you know that's unheard of
You better watch how you talkin' and where you walkin'
Or you and your homies might be lined in chalk
I really hate to trip, but I gotta loc
As they croak, I see myself in the pistol smoke
Fool, I'm the kinda G that little homies wanna be like
On my knees in the night, sayin' prayers in the street light
Keep spending most our lives
Livin' in a gangsta's paradise
Been spending most their lives
Livin' in a gangsta's paradise
We keep spending most our lives
Livin' in a gangsta's paradise
We keep spending most our lives
Livin' in a gangsta's paradise
Look at the situation they got me facin'
I can't live a normal life, I was raised by the street
So I gotta be down with the hood team
Too much television watching, got me chasing dreams
I'm a educated fool with money on my mind
Got my ten in my hand and a gleam in my eye
I'm a loc'd out gangsta, set trippin' banger
And my homies are down, so don't arouse my anger
Fool, death ain't nothin' but a heart beat away
I'm livin' life do or die, what can I say?
I'm 23 now, will I live to see 24?
The way things is going I don't know
Tell me why are we so blind to see
That the ones we hurt are you and me?
Keep spending most our lives
Livin' in a gangsta's paradise
Been spending most their lives
Livin' in a gangsta's paradise
We keep spending most our lives
Livin' in a gangsta's paradise
We keep spending most our lives
Livin' in a gangsta's paradise
Power and the money, money and the power
Minute after minute, hour after hour
Everybody's running, but half of them ain't lookin'
It's going on in the kitchen, but I don't know what's cookin'
They say I gotta learn, but nobody's here to teach me
If they can't understand it, how can they reach me?
I guess they can't, I guess they won't
I guess they front; that's why I know my life is out of luck, fool!
Keep spending most our lives
Livin' in a gangsta's paradise
Been spending most their lives
Livin' in a gangsta's paradise
We keep spending most our lives
Livin' in a gangsta's paradise
We keep spending most our lives
Livin' in a gangsta's paradise
Tell me why are we so blind to see
That the ones we hurt are you and me?
[x2]
Ain't no gangstas living in paradise [x2]"
Yeah not all of them do this, some are very sincere, but I do notice they can sometimes be a bit tactical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delilah
I think nowadays (when i'm older) I would not associate lying with SEE that much anymore.
What a blessing. My life is complete when I am with my dual.
SEE's don't seem to, to me, lie intentionally, entirely. Kinda more like Fish Stories, embellishing, outlandish embellishing with a forgetfulness of epic proportions. So do they lie, yes, technically. But the SEE can, should, temper with age, especially with a dual the whole time to aide towards growing in that direction.
it's rather i've noticed ILIs can be a bit in the player cathegory *bites tongue*Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarno
yes think so too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delilah
is it maybe a matter of life goals what really is type-tied or do you think it's something else entirely?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarno
I don't know. There are a lot of things that people of the same type share with each other. Socionics is a very nice model that describes a lot of things. But not all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delilah
Life goals are probably better described by instincts. The instincts theory is very compact but I think it thought me more about myself than Socioniocs. But Socionics thought me more about relationships.
an ILI i'd dated, well my first boyfriend (who also placed third at a later time) i'd place in a player sorta cathegory because he'd always have a girl or two in the backseat so to speak, and anytime it'd fall through with me he'd play their card. another thing he'd do was take initiative always, but very very subtly so i'd had to do a lot of work by, say, making sure the door was open for him to come in so it seemed seamless;Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarno
i found his personality exhilarating and certain things he did and was a part of seemed to me at the time were so because he was very much a part of the social glue yet later i understand partially through socionics: like maybe he was aware of certain social structures and power balances and played to that;
the thing he did with the 'girl cards' is silly, in retrospect, since i'd always find out - like, i had informers, so to speak, always knew what was going, like he'd call a few of the guys and have a semi-party with few of the girls involving his 'card-girls' and make it all seem it was a general hangout rather than scout-dating;
i've also considered LIE but the subtlety really tipped the balance to ILI. is that the sort of stuff you have in mind Jarno?
to me he seemed meandering, thought maybe a lack of long-term strategy on his end though i stilll care about him today i'd rather he'd held me in less of a regard and loved me a bit more rather.
i can relate to it (when i was younger). funny/weird to hear such a similarity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delilah
My question to you is did he really go through all the trouble to do all that stuff? Or whether it just fell into place like that with little effort? That sounds interesting either way it happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delilah
I'm fairly sure I would absolutely not do all of that. In my case, it would be much more likely for it to seem that way than me actually doing it. I could see myself not getting emotional after a break up and moving on fairly quickly, especially if it was not a long term thing. If this was a lesser relationship however, I'd probably find someone else. That is if I wanted to find someone else.
ILI-SEE slavic duality couple - Alexandr and Natalia Litvin
him: ILI 5w6 sx/sp - her: SEE 9w1 sp/so
https://i.imgur.com/G5uG1j4.png
Blue dress girl is ILI, in my considered opinion. Or if she isn't, she's playing one really well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcqjecuVhUw
Coffee Talk - VN game. Freya is SEE and barista (the player) ILI imo. But still playing, I need to make more observations. https://store.steampowered.com/app/914800/Coffee_Talk/
do you think the younger guy is SEE?Quote:
Originally Posted by woofwoofl
I have always tested as an LIE-Te, but having enhanced Te also means that I have enhanced Se. In fact, my Se is kind of off-the charts for an LIE.
https://imgur.com/19ooT2J
This makes me appear more like an SEE or an SLE, and it has affected my friendships and my dating life. Since my divorce, I've had three IEIs bring up marriage and what I can bring to the table. I have no close male SEE friends, although I know a few, but I have a bunch of close male ILI friends. My shrink is ILI, my best traveling buddy is ILI, and my investment advisor is ILI. I just seem to get along with ILIs very well in real life, and I'm now understanding that it's because I look and act so much like an SEE.
For example. @myresearch said that "SEE may not fulfill their promises, not return to their calls, came late, take a break and LIEs register this as them not giving a damn about them. However, they can easily make amends and forget."
This is exactly how SEEs appear to ILIs, too, but with their Fe-PoLR, ILIs like it.
When I'm out having fun, I'm pretty sure that this is the way I appear. In fact, this is exactly the way I appear when I've been drinking, which is why I gave it up.
Today I called my ILI investment advisor and told him I need $XXk this month because my spending has gone a bit overboard. He said "No problem, let's meet at the Schwab office and they'll cut you a check."
So I drove down to the Schwab office and met him outside and was feeling good because I could transfer money from a cash brokerage account into my checking account and pay all the bills and not have any interest payments, which is my goal, and we went inside together.
The guy in the office was a middle-aged LII and when he saw us come in, he stood up and asked what he could do for us.
I said, "We're here for some money. You have it, we need it."
I might have been a bit over the top, because he instantly tensed up and got an expression on his face like he thought this might be his last day on earth.
My ILI investment advisor immediately said "I'm a Schwab partner and you can cut checks here, can't you?" I'm sure he said this to let the Schwab guy know that we weren't pulling a robbery.
"No, we don't actually cut checks here. We can arrange for you to receive a check by mail, or you can do that yourself on line."
My ILI said, "I thought you cut checks here."
I said, "You guys accept my checks here well enough."
The LII said, "Yes, we do, but we don't actually cut checks here. I'm sorry."
My investment advisor turned to me and said, "I think I have a solution. A way that you can get the money today. Let's go back to my office."
As we were leaving, I turned to the Schwab guy and said, "Not happy!"
When the ILI and I reached his BMW in the parking lot, he was having a hard time not laughing. I think he was experiencing the full Dual SEE treatment from me. Irresponsible with money, no time sense, incredibly extroverted, right at you for no particular reason, unignorable and it's not personal.
He said to me, "I think you might be addicted to excitement, which is why you get yourself into these situations." Meaning that I sometimes need a lot of money right away.
He is right.
When life is good for me (as it is right now) and there are no challenges, I tend to get depressed. I need some excitement to ward off the depression.
Incidentally, when I need understanding, I need an ESI. But when I need some excitement, blue dress girl in post #194 above looks hot as hell. All targeting systems engaged.