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WHAT? Fiona Apple is HOT!
Yeah, I guess. I just find her to be disgusting.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonMonk
I'm gonna disagree and say Ethical-sensory Extratim.
EIE? I disagree, I think she's HOT.
Heheh.
But her eyes remind me of an ISFJ. =/
You dare challenge my VI. :P
:) Not necessarily. She doesn't seem INTj to me, but I'm sometimes bad at typing identicals. Rocky, I really don't think she's an ESE either. I like her stuff when I'm feeling moody.Quote:
Originally Posted by NFp-
Strangely enough, Implied's posts remind me of Fiona Apple...don't know why. Maybe they're the same type. Hmm...
Esfj. Listen to her song "Criminal" and compare it to Britney Spears' "Oops I Did it Again" - the two songs are about the same thing, but from a very different psychological perspective.
I love Fiona Apple. I love that song Criminal, too. :D
ah i had thought she was SLI.
i remember xcaliburgirl (i think) thinking we were similar or something. i doubt we're the same type though, at least not without reading/knowing much about her.
IEI
Same, ILI was always what came to mind. Oh and I love her music.
Some Beta introvert, probably INFp.
IEI
She's IEI, of this I am absolutely certain.
Apparently IEI-Ni are mistaken for ILI quite commonly:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashton
Fiona Apple Quotes
My guess is either a lack of looking into her and giving a quick typing, or misunderstanding how Fe works, or how it works in the creative position.
As soon as you open up that quote page, a list of related authors include 3 confirmed INFps - Tupac, Eminem, and Kurt Cobain, with Michael Jackson, Jim Morrison, and Jimi Hendrix as other possible INFps although I don't know nearly enough about the last ones mentioned to make any type of distinction. There may even be others but I'm not aware of them(Bob Dylan?).
Anywho, the correlation to INFp musicians is overwhelming - if you take the body of her quotes as a whole, you get a clear image of an enneagram 4.
I don't see any Te focus whatsoever, if anything I see weak Te, however her focus on people, her insecurities, her emotions, and relationships is apparent. She has had emotional displays - meltdowns on stage, an impromptu emotional speech which led to media backlash - long periods of procrastination where she has done nothing, an all or nothing mentality, an intensity in emotions , and given advice and quotes which blatently contradict Fe PoLR and Te creative.
She has an apparent focus on authenticity that screams beta and isn't indicative of gamma - in the sense that she emphasizes the importance of authenticity in self expression(go with yourself impromptu speech - which she did to the alienation of the media industry and possible supporters Fe>Fi ) over the 'moral stiffness' of gamma and Fi - in where a certain kind of censorship is emphasized for relational harmony.
Well that's convenient, because I only conform my beliefs about socionics to what you say about it. This is what makes our relationship work so well, we're like a binary star system orbiting each other and feeding off of each other's socionics knowledge until we eventually collapse in on one another in a glorious Socionics cataclysm. The two satellites being rendered inseparable, we will then be known as Ashlen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashton
fiona apple is the shit. total IEI.
in the MTV interview she comes across as a dynamic ethical introvert, unvalued Fi. ergo, IEI.
thisQuote:
Originally Posted by thePirate
What exactly are you defining Fi as when you say she has unvalued Fi? ILIs aren't exactly dynamic unethical introverts. I don't see anything hinting at Fe valuing or what's all that Fe about her. She seems to have some typical Fe-PoLR problems, and makes perfect use of Te creative.
well...her stance on her relationships with men....she focused on how things changed between her and her men, how it seemed to end badly at first but then on how it changed and became better and how she felt about them now. just the way she said it, seemed to reflect dynamic Fe much more than static Fi. and the way she said it, she seems to embrace that feelings are always changing.Quote:
Originally Posted by polikujm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8Z_iRvM7cM
listen to the words of this song and the way she sings it. there is no fucking way this woman is Fi or logical. Fe all the way, do it.
She talks about enjoying the highest highs and lowest lows, which is the epitome of Beta. (Betas lack tempo)
Quote:
Originally Posted by polikujm
I don't think you are using the definition of ethics as seen in socionics - what does the statement I put in bold even mean? I don't think that's a good justification for anything, there's a clear difference between ethicals and logicals - surely you are not correlating ethics with 'morality' as every type has their own code...As far as Fe valuing, I find it more than just a little puzzling that you don't see Fe - her quotes are focused on ethical aspects, her interviews, its her way of being, how she uses phrases and how she interacts - I would go into depth explaining but to go as far as to confuse an Fe ego with Fe PoLR, it would be a bit much.
What are these Fe PoLR problems you see, and how do you see perfect use of her Te creative?
I put it in quotes because I feel gammas can be considered in that light under certain circumstances (although they aren't necessarily like that or always like that) whereas fiona doesn't show a trace; as in I could see why one might call a gamma that but it would be unreasonable to say that about her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashton
Gammas do have a tendency to forcefully abide by their value systems, which can come off as self-righteous and morally stiff to other quadras. The same way Betas can forcefully abide by their own :Ti: ideological systems. Gammas are quite capable of being very judgmental about other people's values .
I don't see why this is so controversial. If it's accepted that Beta's can be rigid in their beliefs, why isn't it accepted in Gamma's? Both are :Se: quadras.
Obviously the extent to which any of this is true will depend on the person should be taken into consideration along with other criteria when typing, but if you don't find even a hint of it, you should probably consider other possibilities as well.
Because to me 'morality' typically conveys connotations of an 'ethical' code that comes from outside of the self, that the person's essentially indoctrinated with through religion or some other dogma, along with a mandate prescribing that everyone else should believe/behave the same ways.
It isn't like that at all. Yeah, values tend to be pretty serious for Gamma and of the highest importance—vital to life itself, even. But it's a code that comes from within, that applies only to one's self and is hence only true in context to the self. I don't expect anyone else to live by my expectations and I won't judge them as less for not doing so (though if they infringe on mine, we're going to have a problem). If I don't like another person's standards, I simply don't allow close relations with them—or if its bad enough, I'll avoid dealing with them entirely. Which doesn't necessarily involve a judgment of that person being good or bad (though some people are inherently good, some inherently bad). They're just different, and perhaps in a way that's bad for me personally. In which case it's pragmatic that I shouldn't waste time dealing with them because nothing of constructive worth is going to come out of it—in any personal/emotional/spiritual sense or what have you.
Not sure what point you're trying to make. I don't see any of that as being necessarily indicative of Fe creative, pirate. She's much more alike to ILIs, even in the style of expressiveness and playfulness she has.
Do you always just make things up as you go?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashton
Bob Dylan is a great example of an IEI. Everything he says is Fe tinged Ni.Quote:
Originally Posted by thePirate
It was a rhetorical question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashton
I wouldn't say Bob Dylan is really morally stiff, unless you change the whole definition of what that means. He comes across like that sometimes...but typically IEIs will be more attentive to Fi than EIEs are. He's definitely an Fe creative--your dual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashton
This is pretty much true. I guess to me Beta Fe always has a way of being more purposeful than Gamma's Fi (which is more ideological in a quadral nature, not to say Fi ego isn't purposeful. it's just not thrown about how Fe is.), and at the same time Gamma's Te seems more purposeful than Beta's Ti. Though those are basically placing the functions themselves without the Ni/Se tinge. IEIs have a way of tapping more into Fi than EIEs do, especially in order to defend their Fe. But for ILIs, Fi is always an ethical necessity.Quote:
Originally Posted by jxrtes
well, I don't agree with this as I see her level of emotionality and energy and overall vibe done match that for me, but that difference in perception I don't think can really be argued on this level, so to this I ask again:Quote:
Originally Posted by polikujm
What are these Fe PoLR problems you see, and how do you see perfect use of her Te creative?
EDIT: Sapphoo <3
:D
i knew there was a reason i liked betas. and yeah agree with what you're saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by jxrtes
every quadra is rigid about something, evil about something, loose about something, pedantic about something, pretentious about something....the list could go on.
that said fiona apple is awesome. she helped get me through my divorce. i used to sit in front of my computer and play her songs really loud and cry. if that's not Fe in the ego what the hell is.
ESTP
Robert Christgau: CG: fiona apple
"Extraordinary Machine [Clean Slate/Epic, 2005]
Instead of delivering the music a sharp-tongued breakup record by an empowered young female would imply--if not folk-rock plain and simple, then emotional piano-woman pop--Apple adapts Broadway show tune to confessional mode. Although Mike Elizondo adds momentum, Jon Brion's colors still predominate, and the melodic and structural contours are all Apple's. Ira Gershwin she's not; Betty Comden she's not either. But she wouldn't be half as inspiring if they were what she was aiming for. A-"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY9Bh_oB2y8
IEI-Ni
And likely social-first - So/Sp would be my guess.
Fiona: "In my head my agenda was, that everyone was now going to know me and understand me and be my friend and I was going to be able to walk into a room and not feel so shy because everyone was going to know what kind of person I was and how I was feeling inside... but instead of becoming very understood and accepted that I became so wildly misunderstood and unaccepted that it really screwed with my head...I'm a very very sensitive person, you can't knock me down with a feather anymore but you can still make me cry pretty easy, but I was miserable...I'm not an extremely social creature and I certainly wasn't one then..."
^ Her on-stage performing aside, it sounds like in her personal life she strives for social recognition and full transparency of who she is as a person, and that she got some serious blues when her needs for social acknowledgement and acceptance were not met.
updated typing: Ni-IEI so/sp 4w5
IEI-Ni
fuck, I don't know. She looks very Ni and I don't like anything about her. I agree with So/sp. Vaguely Fe/Ti > Fi/Te.
"The way I feel about music is that there is no right and wrong. Only true and false."
"I'm not a control freak."
And if I'm being honest, I don't think I have an ex-boyfriend who would have something mean to say about me.
"When you're surrounded by all these people, it can be even lonelier than when you're by yourself. You can be in a huge crowd, but if you don't feel like you can trust anybody or talk to anybody, you feel like you're really alone."
As a person who performs on stage, it's good to be emotionally open. If you mess with someone when they are in that state, it's like you're messing with an animal when it's eating.
I thought Sx/Sp
-Most of he songs of hers I've listened to are about relationships. Entire songs directed towards specific men, speaking directly to them, even naming songs after them. Talks about stalking/watching them. A lot of the lyrics are really cutting, harsh and straight-to-the-point. No filter.
-Really isolated. Disappears for years. Does things and admits openly to things that people consider self-destructive, bizarre, etc. and seems confused as to why people would react negatively, or just doesn't care. There's no 'health' impulse. She just rides it all out.
I wish I had better reasoning behind it, but I just don't see Social-instinct in her.
she VIs so/sp and there's scarcely any kind of intensity in her music. I gather her lyrics about relationships could come from her being an I_F type as well.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sit...iona_apple.jpg
http://www.brainpickings.org/wp-cont...fionajanet.jpg
Omg what happened to her :( ? I've always thought she was so last also, but that may be her 4-ness.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/...50_634x918.jpg
THANKSQuote:
Originally Posted by mfckr
Her music sort of repulses me. I don't know why. Maybe it is her energy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sienna
Edit: I have similar repulsion to Edie Brickell and Alanis Morissette but I can take those two in very small miniscule doses.
I've never been able to get my head round Fiona Apple either, I don't know why, I thought I should have liked her, maybe the same way I always thought I should like dinner parties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
I relate to Layne Staley, Kurt Cobain, Jim Morrison, Marilyn Monroe, Eminem and a few others, pretty well. In one of my threads I said my celebrity parents would be Eminem + Marilyn Monroe = me (that is how I felt at the time). I relate to some fictional characters even more. Could be some enneagram connections to it. Like when I listen to the Digital Daggers I feel like they say the same things I want to say. :oops:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebird
Not sure why this woman can't be LSE
Introverted, Ni all over da place. I always took her for either Ni-IEI with a heavy Ni emphasis, or Ni-ILI.
Just-for-fun fake logic:
I say F.A. could be Ni-IEI or Ni-ILI.
Limitless says he is like Fiona Apple.
I and others said Limitless reminds us somewhat of Jinxi.
The types most offered for Jinxi were Ni-IEI and Ni-ILI.
Therefore, Socionics is real.
"I was told so many times when I was a kid, 'I can't be friends with you, you're too intense, you're too sad all the time.' I really thought that when I made the first album that everyone would understand me, all the people who weren't my friends would become my friends."
"The worst pain in the world is shame. I spend a lot of time trying to not do anything bad to anyone, but you can't live your life and not hurt people."
:/ Not currently in my enneagram swing at all but I see plenty of potential E4 from her but not sure if I see Beta NF. Like some have mentioned the fact that she's a four can make her seem more Beta or associated with Beta than she may really be due to the intensity, drama, moodiness, etc, people associate with beta NF. So far she seems :Fi: ego to me. Anyone know of any potential famous musician E4 delta NFs to compare?
That was Alomoes. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1069882Quote:
Originally Posted by GOLDEN
They joined around the same time though.
Well, only two of us agreed on Jinxi, then. (I.e., you were talking about someone else.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
I was talking about the same person. I just didn't know them by that name until they were banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by GOLDEN
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...as-been-banned
How someone can see common traits between Limitless and Alomoes beyond rudimentary Socio-lines ....I don't know. It's too much of a mental challenge. This boy and Jinxi, trifling_whatever.
Limitless is a clear IEI-Fe which takes him away from any ILI/IEI ambiguity.
Ha, it's sweet you think I'm expert enough to answer your questions. The field you're talking about there is music journalism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Limitless
I can throw out some personal anecdotes and whatnot, fwiw . . .
I think you're right about this. Maybe it was in second grade a boy pointed out that I had a mole on my face. He teased me relentlessly and got other boys to join in. They made me cry and this went on for a couple of years. I probably didn't even think about having one, since it was just another part of me, until then and it became an obsession to get rid of it. I was embarrassed to tell my family about the teasing. Then I think it was probably my aunt that told me Marilyn Monroe had a "beauty mark" in the same spot. It must have been my aunt who told me, since she loved old movies and we watched them together. When I realized that about Marilyn it made me feel better and I felt a little less defective and a bit more special. As I got older the boys started to like it anyway but I didn't know that at age 8. :content:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebird
I started reading about her, here and there, but mostly just the glamorous stuff when I was very young. There wasn't much I could get my hands on as a preteen. After I got married and divorced in my teens, and other fiascoes, I started reading everything I could find on her because I could see how our lives were a bit similar except mine lacked all the fame and notoriety. The only musician, author, actor or other well known person I ever chose to read biographies of were the ones that I personally identified with through their behavior, quotes about their thoughts and feelings, and something about their eyes. I love a lot of musicians, I don't identify with Courtney Love for example. I do identify with Kurt Cobain. I don't identify with "Sid Vicious" but I identified with Nancy Spungen (during a period of my life when things were out of control and I was living a similar lifestyle in NYC).
Most of these associations I started making with others started when I was very very young. Identifying with people others called trash, immoral, or whatever. I empathized with them. Maybe if I had not been born with a mark I would have been an E7 or something. :shifty:
You are "Limitless". Don't ever change that. :hug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Limitless
I like Lana just fine and listen to her but I just don't care for Fiona's particular sound. She might be an awesome person but some of her music is like nails on a chalkboard to me. I don't have that reaction to Lana. I do to Alanis though. Me, personally, not likely her music makes it easy for me to ignore her as a person since there are billions of others on this planet and she is just one of those I will never find compelling enough to learn about. I have felt more drawn to the story of some unknown shaman in the rainforest whose story I will know better than Fiona's. I probably could relate to her but I have no desire to seek out that kind of connection. I hope this what you were looking for as an explanation since I have no other. :content:
could it be her wing type rather than her main type?Quote:
Originally Posted by Olly From Wally World
I really do not see her as EIE... Ni dom, a bit dry...
That would be a good question for the enneagram forum if you'd like to make one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Limitless
I won't write out her interviews in all the gory detail as you can read them for yourself. Suffice it to say that all of the mirror types are quite distinct. For one, they are a part of completely different benefit and supervision chains; for another, they don't overlap on multiple Reinin dichotomies: http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...omies#OverviewQuote:
Originally Posted by Limitless
IEI imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X43Sl1-Xaig
“I could liken you to a werewolf the way you left me for dead, but I admit that I provided a full moon / And I could liken you to a shark the way you bit off my head, but then again I was waving around a bleeding open wound / But you were such a super guy ‘til the second you get a whiff of me / We're like a wishing well and a bolt of electricity / But we can still support each other / All we gotta do’s avoid each other / Nothing wrong when a song ends in a minor key . . . The lava of a volcano / Shot up hot from under the sea / One thing leads to another / And you made an island of me . . . . I could liken you to a lot of things, but I always come around / 'Cause in the end I'm a sensible girl / I know the fiction of the fix . . . . We're like a wishing well and a bolt of electricity / But we could still support each other / All we gotta do’s avoid each other / Nothing wrong when a song ends in a minor key . . .”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7Eo_cmWZQY
“Oh, the periphery / They throw good parties there / Those peripheral idiots / Always have a bite to bare / Bear it if you can / If you really want to / Go to the periphery / Have them celebrate your name / Have them forge you a pedigree and then you'll be left to run the races lame / But if you want, if you think it's worth it — go now, with me / ‘Cause I don't appreciate people who don't appreciate / All that loving must've been lacking something if I got bored trying to figure you out / You let me down / I don't even like you anymore at all / Oh, the periphery / I lost another one there / He found a prettier girl than me / With a more even-tempered air / And if he wants her, he should get her / ‘Cause I think he thinks she's worth it / And maybe they'll move from the periphery / Buy themselves their own plot of land . . . I'll just be hoping he makes a good family man / And if he finds himself yearning for his throne on the silly side / There’s nothing wrong as long as he's learning / Besides, you can take it up with his brethren or with his bride / Just not with me / ‘Cause I don't appreciate people who don't appreciate / All that loving must've been lacking something if I got bored trying to figure you out . . . You let me down / I don't even like you anymore at all / Oh, the periphery . . . Stay away . . . Away, away / Stay away, away . . .”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6QIXrAxZiY
“I was staring out the window the whole time he was talking to me / It was a filthy pane of glass / I couldn't get a clear view / And as he went on and on, it wasn't the outside world I could see / Just the filthy pane that I was looking through / So I had to break the window / It just had to be / Better that I break the window than him or her or me . . . . Better that I break the window than forget what I had to say / Or miss what I should see // Because the fact being that whatever's in front of me is coloring my view / So I can't see what I'm seeing; in fact, I only see what I'm looking through // So again I done the right thing / I was never worried about that / The answer's always been in clear view / But even when the window’s clean, I still can't see for the fact that when it’s clean it's so clear I can't tell what I'm looking through . . . .”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzl6BMQLwuA
“I'm undecided about you again / Mightn't be right that you're not here / It's double-sided ‘cause I ruined it all / But also saved myself by never believing you, dear / Everything good, I deem too good to be true / Everything else is just a bore / Everything I have to look forward to has a pretty painful and very imposing before . . . . I have too been playing with fifty-two cards / Just ‘cause I play so far from my vest / Whatever I've got, I've got no reason to guard / What could I do but spend my best . . . . And after waiting, fighting patiently on my knees / All the other stuff tired itself out first and not me / And in its wake appeared the touch and call of a different breed / One who set to get me wise, and got me there and then got me // And what a thing to know what could be instead / Oh, what a blessed curse to see / Took the agenda from its place on my bed / Made a merry paramour of me / O' Sailor, why'd you do it? / What'd you do that for? / Saying there's nothing to it and then let me go by the boards / O' sailor, why'd you do it? / What'd you do that for? / Giving me eyes to view it as it goes by the boards . . .”
Robert Christgau:
http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_a...me=Fiona+Apple
“Extraordinary Machine [Clean Slate/Epic, 2005]
Instead of delivering the music a sharp-tongued breakup record by an empowered young female would imply—if not folk-rock plain and simple, then emotional piano-woman pop—Apple adapts Broadway show tune to confessional mode. Although Mike Elizondo adds momentum, Jon Brion's colors still predominate, and the melodic and structural contours are all Apple's. Ira Gershwin she's not; Betty Comden she's not either. But she wouldn't be half as inspiring if they were what she was aiming for. A-
The Idler Wheel Is Wiser Than the Driver of the Screw and Whipping Cords Will Serve You More Than Ropes Ever Do [Epic, 2012]
A funny thing will happen once you've figured out that the title is the stupidest thing about an album that's damn catchy after all. It'll sound like a piano record—a defiantly primitivist, raucously avant-garde lounge singer's piano record, with a really nutty drummer: he'll-bang-on-anything (and-get-her-to-pitch-in) producer Charley Drayton. There are few arpeggios, and not much tone color and such. She just executes simple figures and hammers thick chords, including a few boogie-woogies just to make a point. She also sings—words, yes, but more decisively, sounds. Not background music. But you could sure call it mood music. A-”
http://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/bn/2012-07.php
‘Hearing Her Pain
As the synthesizer displaced the electric guitar over the past two decades, there was a parallel development in acoustic music: the folkie ingenue strumming nylon strings gave way to the pop polymath tickling ivorine keys. All in their early thirties, the four major successes in a line traceable to Laura Nyro are Regina Spektor, Nellie McKay, Norah Jones, and Fiona Apple. The first two are obviously minor leaguers compared to Jones and her megaplatinum 2002 Come Away with Me or topic-at-hand Apple, who released the most acclaimed album of 2012 in June. But all are songful New York-identified originals with a fan base, and only McKay, whose 2010 Home Sweet Mobile Home gestured futilely at middlebrow convention after four quirky-to-kooky keepers, is without a current release. Apple and McKay have Broadway roots, the Russian-born Spektor was a classical prodigy, and Jones studied jazz piano in college. None has more than a peripheral relationship to rock and roll as it's normally conceived, and only Jones, whose fondness for country music surfaced with a spooky Hank Williams cover back when, has shown any interest in all the folkish musics on life support gathered under the rubric of Americana.
Ragtime piano did as much to transform 20th-century pop as blues guitar, but the piano these women care about is the one in the parlor rather than the barrelhouse, its discipline harmonic rather than rhythmic. Hence they often come up short on groove even when they hire out their production, as Spektor and Apple have, to Dr. Dre graduate Mike Elizondo. The upside is their melodic facility. In an era when the indelible tune is the province of R&B hit-paraders, Nashville neo-to-pseudo-traditionalists, and old-timers who trust the mettle of blues-based forms that will never dominate pop again, all these piano players have shown a knack for writing songs that are pleasurable up front and intelligent long term. And though I've never been a parlor kind of guy, they've enriched my life as a listener and a critic.
Granted, I find Jones too subtle even if or because she's the nicest person ever to go double-decaplatinum, and after half a dozen tries can neither confirm nor deny credible rumors that her quiet . . . Little Broken Hearts vents the anger to which I'm sure she's entitled. Although McKay is an animal rights crank, which is to say not my type, she's also a stand-up comedian, which is to say bésame mucho--a spunky, sprightly eccentric who has a history of stirring things up just because she can. Although spunky and sprightly right up to her new What We Saw from the Cheap Seats, Spektor is such a committed humanist that should her pop career flounder you can imagine her touring senior residences, where the ones about returning the oldie's wallet and masterpieces imprisoned in their own timelessness would win her a quick callback. Which leaves us with our topic at hand, who is certainly the most brilliant of these very talented women and almost as certainly the hardest to like.
This is not to suggest she's hard to fall in love with. Fiona Apple has had femme fatale written all over her since she debuted in 1996 at 18 with the determinedly bathetic Tidal, which—in a now-vanished record-biz epoch still brimming with dreams of precious metal and aesthetically complicated celebrity—went triple platinum behind a Grammy-winning single about doing a good man wrong and a video featuring the teenager in her underwear. Having beaten her three competitors to the post by five years, however, Apple has since been outdistanced by all of them: The Idler Wheel (we'll get to the full title later) is only her fourth album, and comes seven years after Extraordinary Machine. How this could be is indicated by the recording history of Extraordinary Machine, in which--with the aforementioned epoch on its last legs--Apple rejected the orchestrated iteration produced by the estimable Jon Brion and insisted on re-recording with the estimable Elizondo. Some prefer one version, some the other; they're different, sure, but since this is her shapeliest set of songs either way, few find the differential as stark as Apple does. She's a diva, a perfectionist, a pain in the ass. And this determines the kind of respect she gets--as a musician, and as a star in whom listeners invest their fantasies and ambitions.
The music is why we're here. Vocally Apple has more size and texture and character and drama than her fellow piano women. Her melodies and arrangements are always forceful and never predictable. The fascination she exerts, however, extends well beyond these aesthetic niceties and doesn't necessarily begin with them. Post-MTV, you'd figure all these women must work harder at their looks than Laura Nyro. But where the blonde McKay and brunette Jones are prom-queen pretty and the curly-headed Spektor retains some homegirl, Apple has always been an exotic, her enormous eyes depthless and her oval face evolving from knowing gamine to sultry analysand as the years piled on their pain. For her many female admirers, her beauty is presumably ancillary—when Jessica Hopper calls Apple "the martyr-saint, crucifying herself so that we might live drama-free," she's praising a soul sister who exposes sides of herself Hopper herself has chosen not to indulge. With men, however, the attraction has often seemed more fraught — imbued with a sexually charged preference for intensity over reliability, sparked by the kind of let-me-take-you-away-from-all-this fantasy men know in their hearts is doomed and secretly prefer that way. One achievement of The Idler Wheel is that it's quashed such fantasies. No longer is she seen as a tortured beauty. In 2012 she's strictly a tortured artist.
This is progress, no doubt about it. But I don't know how an emotionally engaged male heterosexual Fiona fan could have conceptualized her any way but romantically. There are 33 songs total on Tidal, the 2001 album with the 90-word title known as When the Pawn, and the two versions of Extraordinary Machine. Tidal's typically disconsolate "Sullen Girl" ponders depression per se, Extraordinary Machine's startlingly cheerful "Waltz" begins "If you don't have a song to sing / You're OK," and every one of the 31 others obsesses on disconnects with men. For her first decade, then, Apple's "crippling doubt" and "mirror-upon-mirror confessionalism," "her pains, her insecurities," "her neuroses," her "icky little feelings," "her emotions . . . too messy for the relatively staid language of most pop music”—to cherry-pick The Idler Wheel's raft of raves—all had the secret word "romantic" attached. She spent three albums elaborating her own dialect of pop music's lingua franca. In principle, love songs are OK with me, although I prefer a broader emotional palette than Apple's and have often noted that happy ones are harder to get right. But there are other things to write about, and I don't just mean partying hearty and returning people's wallets. Friendship, for instance. Mortality. Your mother. God and so forth. The pit bull you took in off the street. The little club you play occasionally. Hell, even art as such. You can have messy emotions about any of these things.
That the three albums share a lingua franca doesn't mean they're interchangeable. The bestselling Tidal is sodden juvenilia by me, When the Pawn deep and dark and palpably disturbed, Extraordinary Machine a stab at sociable sanity—Elizondo was clearly brought in to smooth out the songs, not hype up the beats. And on The Idler Wheel Apple has definitely gotten on top of her disconnects--verbally, anyway. She spends less time blaming the guy or lacerating herself. The "companion" of the lead "Every Single Night" is explicitly her own "brain" even if that companion percolates heat in her belly, and "Daredevil" right after looks askance at her own risk-taking. But "Daredevil" also addresses a presumably male other, and so it goes once again: every song after the first is about love lost, failed, or otherwise flawed. Midway through comes the oft-quoted theme statement "How can I ask anyone to love me / When all I do is beg to be left alone," and I can just imagine horny fantasists thinking, If she's going to put it that way, maybe I really should settle for Jennifer down the hall. It's a game-changing line with several parallels on The Idler Wheel, which is longer on the kindness and self-knowledge barely glimpsed in Apple's younger songs: "Valentine" with its "I root for you"; "Jonathan" with its "I like watching you live"; "Werewolf," where she admits flaunting the scent of blood; "Anything We Want," where she imagines a future consummation. Also noteworthy is a finale called "Hot Knife." Many have observed that the entire song is a crude, eccentric sexual metaphor. No one has indicated when Apple has been so pro-sex before, because she hasn't.
My close readings constitute a scoop of sorts--the huzzahs for Apple's "self-conscious self-absorption and gritty self-loathing" rarely mention countervailing tendencies. One reason is probably that, however much Apple's tortured image is valued for enhancing her blessed artistic integrity, nobody truly believes she's much of a lyricist. That full title: The Idler Wheel Is Wiser than the Driver of the Screw and Whipping Cords Will Serve You More than Ropes Will Ever Do. To find out what an idler wheel is, read some other review, or Google it. I'll merely point out that "the driver of the screw" is otherwise known as a screwdriver and that most English speakers would just say "ropes ever will." Only then it wouldn't scan, or rhyme, that stuff. Apple does this sort of thing a lot — horrible lines like "Adagio breezes fill my skin with sudden red" or "Whose reality I knew, was a hopeless to be had" or "And last night's phrases / Sick with lack of basis." The Idler Wheel improves on this tendency. Because silly is good, I even kind of like the "orotund mutt" / "moribund slut" rhyme others mock, although not the "white doves' feathers"-"hot piss" metaphor others find scintillating—much less its next line: "Every time you address me." ("Address"? Really? Who talks like that?) But remember—lyrics aren't why we're here. Music is.
This is not a hooky album. Even compared to the earlier work it's not a hooky album. If like me you're skeptical about Fiona Apple in particular and pop avant-gardism in general, you could play it four or five times without hearing a single song whole. If you're like me, however, by then you'd admire producer-drummer Charley Drayton's junkyard percussion, which colors this music more decisively than Apple's piano, which is deployed sonically and rhythmically, including several boogie-woogie figures. And soon thereafter, if you're like me, the whole thing will come together in a whoosh — the kind of formally risky pop that, when it happens to work, provides pleasures almost as bracing and enduring as "Over the Rainbow," "She Loves You," or "I Want It That Way."
Because it's jagged on top and melodically facile deep underneath, the music too discourages vicarious romanticism. It impels any interested bystander to hear Fiona Apple as a tortured artist rather than somebody to love. Yet as a pop polymath whose artistic integrity is working hidden variations on teen ballad and Broadway heartsong, maybe she's finally become so accomplished that she's less tortured than she and everyone else thinks — on her way to more lovable, even. No matter how much she begs to be left alone, maybe the respect she's clearly earned means she deserves what she also can't stop begging for, else she'd be writing songs about God and her pit bull. I mean somebody to love. Just not anyone I know, please. Because speculate as we might, one thing is certain: Fiona Apple is always going to be a pain in the ass.’
Barnes & Noble Review, July 19, 2012
http://cdn3.pitchfork.com/news/45235/36b6f38c.jpg
http://www.polarimagazine.com/wp-con...iona-Apple.jpg
https://polaroidsonsidewalks.files.w...iona-apple.jpg
Robert Christgau:
http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_a...me=Fiona+Apple
“Extraordinary Machine [Clean Slate/Epic, 2005]
Instead of delivering the music a sharp-tongued breakup record by an empowered young female would imply—if not folk-rock plain and simple, then emotional piano-woman pop—Apple adapts Broadway show tune to confessional mode. Although Mike Elizondo adds momentum, Jon Brion's colors still predominate, and the melodic and structural contours are all Apple's. Ira Gershwin she's not; Betty Comden she's not either. But she wouldn't be half as inspiring if they were what she was aiming for. A-
The Idler Wheel Is Wiser Than the Driver of the Screw and Whipping Cords Will Serve You More Than Ropes Ever Do [Epic, 2012]
A funny thing will happen once you've figured out that the title is the stupidest thing about an album that's damn catchy after all. It'll sound like a piano record—a defiantly primitivist, raucously avant-garde lounge singer's piano record, with a really nutty drummer: he'll-bang-on-anything (and-get-her-to-pitch-in) producer Charley Drayton. There are few arpeggios, and not much tone color and such. She just executes simple figures and hammers thick chords, including a few boogie-woogies just to make a point. She also sings—words, yes, but more decisively, sounds. Not background music. But you could sure call it mood music. A-”
http://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/bn/2012-07.php
‘Hearing Her Pain
As the synthesizer displaced the electric guitar over the past two decades, there was a parallel development in acoustic music: the folkie ingenue strumming nylon strings gave way to the pop polymath tickling ivorine keys. All in their early thirties, the four major successes in a line traceable to Laura Nyro are Regina Spektor, Nellie McKay, Norah Jones, and Fiona Apple. The first two are obviously minor leaguers compared to Jones and her megaplatinum 2002 Come Away with Me or topic-at-hand Apple, who released the most acclaimed album of 2012 in June. But all are songful New York-identified originals with a fan base, and only McKay, whose 2010 Home Sweet Mobile Home gestured futilely at middlebrow convention after four quirky-to-kooky keepers, is without a current release. Apple and McKay have Broadway roots, the Russian-born Spektor was a classical prodigy, and Jones studied jazz piano in college. None has more than a peripheral relationship to rock and roll as it's normally conceived, and only Jones, whose fondness for country music surfaced with a spooky Hank Williams cover back when, has shown any interest in all the folkish musics on life support gathered under the rubric of Americana.
Ragtime piano did as much to transform 20th-century pop as blues guitar, but the piano these women care about is the one in the parlor rather than the barrelhouse, its discipline harmonic rather than rhythmic. Hence they often come up short on groove even when they hire out their production, as Spektor and Apple have, to Dr. Dre graduate Mike Elizondo. The upside is their melodic facility. In an era when the indelible tune is the province of R&B hit-paraders, Nashville neo-to-pseudo-traditionalists, and old-timers who trust the mettle of blues-based forms that will never dominate pop again, all these piano players have shown a knack for writing songs that are pleasurable up front and intelligent long term. And though I've never been a parlor kind of guy, they've enriched my life as a listener and a critic.
Granted, I find Jones too subtle even if or because she's the nicest person ever to go double-decaplatinum, and after half a dozen tries can neither confirm nor deny credible rumors that her quiet . . . Little Broken Hearts vents the anger to which I'm sure she's entitled. Although McKay is an animal rights crank, which is to say not my type, she's also a stand-up comedian, which is to say bésame mucho--a spunky, sprightly eccentric who has a history of stirring things up just because she can. Although spunky and sprightly right up to her new What We Saw from the Cheap Seats, Spektor is such a committed humanist that should her pop career flounder you can imagine her touring senior residences, where the ones about returning the oldie's wallet and masterpieces imprisoned in their own timelessness would win her a quick callback. Which leaves us with our topic at hand, who is certainly the most brilliant of these very talented women and almost as certainly the hardest to like.
This is not to suggest she's hard to fall in love with. Fiona Apple has had femme fatale written all over her since she debuted in 1996 at 18 with the determinedly bathetic Tidal, which—in a now-vanished record-biz epoch still brimming with dreams of precious metal and aesthetically complicated celebrity—went triple platinum behind a Grammy-winning single about doing a good man wrong and a video featuring the teenager in her underwear. Having beaten her three competitors to the post by five years, however, Apple has since been outdistanced by all of them: The Idler Wheel (we'll get to the full title later) is only her fourth album, and comes seven years after Extraordinary Machine. How this could be is indicated by the recording history of Extraordinary Machine, in which--with the aforementioned epoch on its last legs--Apple rejected the orchestrated iteration produced by the estimable Jon Brion and insisted on re-recording with the estimable Elizondo. Some prefer one version, some the other; they're different, sure, but since this is her shapeliest set of songs either way, few find the differential as stark as Apple does. She's a diva, a perfectionist, a pain in the ass. And this determines the kind of respect she gets--as a musician, and as a star in whom listeners invest their fantasies and ambitions.
The music is why we're here. Vocally Apple has more size and texture and character and drama than her fellow piano women. Her melodies and arrangements are always forceful and never predictable. The fascination she exerts, however, extends well beyond these aesthetic niceties and doesn't necessarily begin with them. Post-MTV, you'd figure all these women must work harder at their looks than Laura Nyro. But where the blonde McKay and brunette Jones are prom-queen pretty and the curly-headed Spektor retains some homegirl, Apple has always been an exotic, her enormous eyes depthless and her oval face evolving from knowing gamine to sultry analysand as the years piled on their pain. For her many female admirers, her beauty is presumably ancillary—when Jessica Hopper calls Apple "the martyr-saint, crucifying herself so that we might live drama-free," she's praising a soul sister who exposes sides of herself Hopper herself has chosen not to indulge. With men, however, the attraction has often seemed more fraught — imbued with a sexually charged preference for intensity over reliability, sparked by the kind of let-me-take-you-away-from-all-this fantasy men know in their hearts is doomed and secretly prefer that way. One achievement of The Idler Wheel is that it's quashed such fantasies. No longer is she seen as a tortured beauty. In 2012 she's strictly a tortured artist.
This is progress, no doubt about it. But I don't know how an emotionally engaged male heterosexual Fiona fan could have conceptualized her any way but romantically. There are 33 songs total on Tidal, the 2001 album with the 90-word title known as When the Pawn, and the two versions of Extraordinary Machine. Tidal's typically disconsolate "Sullen Girl" ponders depression per se, Extraordinary Machine's startlingly cheerful "Waltz" begins "If you don't have a song to sing / You're OK," and every one of the 31 others obsesses on disconnects with men. For her first decade, then, Apple's "crippling doubt" and "mirror-upon-mirror confessionalism," "her pains, her insecurities," "her neuroses," her "icky little feelings," "her emotions . . . too messy for the relatively staid language of most pop music”—to cherry-pick The Idler Wheel's raft of raves—all had the secret word "romantic" attached. She spent three albums elaborating her own dialect of pop music's lingua franca. In principle, love songs are OK with me, although I prefer a broader emotional palette than Apple's and have often noted that happy ones are harder to get right. But there are other things to write about, and I don't just mean partying hearty and returning people's wallets. Friendship, for instance. Mortality. Your mother. God and so forth. The pit bull you took in off the street. The little club you play occasionally. Hell, even art as such. You can have messy emotions about any of these things.
That the three albums share a lingua franca doesn't mean they're interchangeable. The bestselling Tidal is sodden juvenilia by me, When the Pawn deep and dark and palpably disturbed, Extraordinary Machine a stab at sociable sanity—Elizondo was clearly brought in to smooth out the songs, not hype up the beats. And on The Idler Wheel Apple has definitely gotten on top of her disconnects--verbally, anyway. She spends less time blaming the guy or lacerating herself. The "companion" of the lead "Every Single Night" is explicitly her own "brain" even if that companion percolates heat in her belly, and "Daredevil" right after looks askance at her own risk-taking. But "Daredevil" also addresses a presumably male other, and so it goes once again: every song after the first is about love lost, failed, or otherwise flawed. Midway through comes the oft-quoted theme statement "How can I ask anyone to love me / When all I do is beg to be left alone," and I can just imagine horny fantasists thinking, If she's going to put it that way, maybe I really should settle for Jennifer down the hall. It's a game-changing line with several parallels on The Idler Wheel, which is longer on the kindness and self-knowledge barely glimpsed in Apple's younger songs: "Valentine" with its "I root for you"; "Jonathan" with its "I like watching you live"; "Werewolf," where she admits flaunting the scent of blood; "Anything We Want," where she imagines a future consummation. Also noteworthy is a finale called "Hot Knife." Many have observed that the entire song is a crude, eccentric sexual metaphor. No one has indicated when Apple has been so pro-sex before, because she hasn't.
My close readings constitute a scoop of sorts--the huzzahs for Apple's "self-conscious self-absorption and gritty self-loathing" rarely mention countervailing tendencies. One reason is probably that, however much Apple's tortured image is valued for enhancing her blessed artistic integrity, nobody truly believes she's much of a lyricist. That full title: The Idler Wheel Is Wiser than the Driver of the Screw and Whipping Cords Will Serve You More than Ropes Will Ever Do. To find out what an idler wheel is, read some other review, or Google it. I'll merely point out that "the driver of the screw" is otherwise known as a screwdriver and that most English speakers would just say "ropes ever will." Only then it wouldn't scan, or rhyme, that stuff. Apple does this sort of thing a lot — horrible lines like "Adagio breezes fill my skin with sudden red" or "Whose reality I knew, was a hopeless to be had" or "And last night's phrases / Sick with lack of basis." The Idler Wheel improves on this tendency. Because silly is good, I even kind of like the "orotund mutt" / "moribund slut" rhyme others mock, although not the "white doves' feathers"-"hot piss" metaphor others find scintillating—much less its next line: "Every time you address me." ("Address"? Really? Who talks like that?) But remember—lyrics aren't why we're here. Music is.
This is not a hooky album. Even compared to the earlier work it's not a hooky album. If like me you're skeptical about Fiona Apple in particular and pop avant-gardism in general, you could play it four or five times without hearing a single song whole. If you're like me, however, by then you'd admire producer-drummer Charley Drayton's junkyard percussion, which colors this music more decisively than Apple's piano, which is deployed sonically and rhythmically, including several boogie-woogie figures. And soon thereafter, if you're like me, the whole thing will come together in a whoosh — the kind of formally risky pop that, when it happens to work, provides pleasures almost as bracing and enduring as "Over the Rainbow," "She Loves You," or "I Want It That Way."
Because it's jagged on top and melodically facile deep underneath, the music too discourages vicarious romanticism. It impels any interested bystander to hear Fiona Apple as a tortured artist rather than somebody to love. Yet as a pop polymath whose artistic integrity is working hidden variations on teen ballad and Broadway heartsong, maybe she's finally become so accomplished that she's less tortured than she and everyone else thinks — on her way to more lovable, even. No matter how much she begs to be left alone, maybe the respect she's clearly earned means she deserves what she also can't stop begging for, else she'd be writing songs about God and her pit bull. I mean somebody to love. Just not anyone I know, please. Because speculate as we might, one thing is certain: Fiona Apple is always going to be a pain in the ass.’
Barnes & Noble Review, July 19, 2012
I think Fiona Apple may have BPD, which makes her exceptionally more difficult to type.
She comes off very Ne heavy, though.
If it's between EII and IEI, she's probably 4w5 sx/sp.
I'm curious why people think she's a Ni dom???
I think she could be sx/so 4w3
ESI* @ 14:27
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrAkzlld_Ts
She's saying "the world is bullshit" from a social point of view. Soc first and second feel like there are these invisible rules in society whereas soc lasts don't feel that social pressure and so have no reason to call it out and especially tell the whole world about it. One might think the world is bullshit for other reasons but I'm not motivated to tell the whole world (soc) about it because I see no use in that. But it seems like she thinks she's helping the world out by saying this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starfall
i think she's sx/so. Which for some reason is really hard to see in 4s. Probably because sx/so has this warm love theme and 4 is the opposite of that.
I like that. I find fiona relatable but I think she's more intense/raw/emotional than I am. Maniac types me social 5 though :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Starfall
lungs is more heavy and yeah, less emotional. i think fiona is more like starfall than lungs.
This whole speech is Fi.Quote:
Originally Posted by maniac
I'm going with EII 4w5 sx/something
@Limitless shes reaching out to all these people she dont know (like in your avatar, and that other video that was posted here), and tells them sorry and that she agrees with them, as to help them or comfort them or something. Unlikely for a social last who usually stay to their own devices.
Here she talks about how her music is a way to show the world who she is and to make friends. Thats social.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8cjkxJzsuA&t=173s
It's just interesting to see how other people perceive her!! @maniac :hug:
If you think ignoring social bonds for the most part is stupid then it makes sense if youre not soc last. Every blindspot is their own kind of stupid. Everyone uses every instinct but the instinct stacking is how you prioritize it and how much importance you put on them. Social last still talk and socialize but I dont see the importance in building friendships and reaching out to people for the sake of being their friend and bonding with them, and also keepning in touch and making those connections last. I seek out people to fulfill my sexual instinct but for the most part I'm a hermit. Catatonia is a state of being speechless and motionless. if this was true so/sx and sx/so wouldnt be able to fulfill their social needs nor their sexual needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Limitless
Recently I think sx/so 478 for her. But she's a hard one. She seems like she really wants to be seen as sort of grungy and unhealthy which I don't know why. I share this somewhat. She's more naturally feminine than me though. She might be 4w3 with a 5w4 subwing like me.
By the way that stacking sx/so is really difficult to see in 4s I have noticed. I think Bob Dylan (w5) and Rufus Wainwright are also sx/so and it's hard to see. Coldheartedness of 4 + warmhearted sx/so.
Why I think she's 7 fixed is because in interviews she has an easier time of letting go of the self consciousness to an extent and play around more than a 4 with the other fixes.
Obvious EII is obvious.
Same type as Nas and Jimi Hendrix imo , IEI
IEI
E E
IEI
practically every artsy E4-ish girl gets an IEI typing thrown their wayQuote:
Originally Posted by velveteen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhMEKiIb86I
This is how I see IEI mindset.. :tumble:Quote:
Nothing's gonna change my world.
IEI-Fe 4w5 so/sx
Reality is a canvas Ni imposes its imagination/inner world upon.
NiFe converts inner worlds into new modes of expression....NiTe converts inner worlds into new modes of thought.
John Lennon wrote those lyrics and I doubt he was an IEI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
The combination of sound and video which frames things in bit different light. I doubt Lennon designed it like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolus
Like if we freeze frame things deterministically or just watch sidelines...
I'm surprised by all the votes for IEI. I'm very sure that she's an EIE with a creative subtype.