Printable View
There are certainly disabled 8s, yes. They are prone to shit just like any other type. However, I am simply saying I have not known of them. And I bet most of them would be 8w9s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Also Joy, you have not answered my original question: what types are you considering?
I'm pretty settled on 8w7 sx/sp at this point. It makes perfect sense.
I was seriously considering 5, but it doesn't make as much sense as 8 if you look at the overall picture of me.
I just saw this. Didn't we decide not long ago that 8w7 works best for me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Anyways, if I had to pick an order for the likelihood of types for me, it would be:
8 > 5 > 7 > 4, 6, 1 > 3 > 9 > 2 (or something like that... in any case, 8 and 5 are at the top and 9 and 2 are at the bottom)
ESTps, ESTjs, ISTps, and ISTjs can all be 8s, and possibly ESFps and ESFjs. Sensing is crucial. Judging is irrelevant without sensing.Quote:
Originally Posted by UDP
Most 8w7s will be ESTps and ESTjs. ESTp is the archetypal 8w7 - expansive, domineering, combative and aggressive. Most 8w9s will be ISTps and ISTjs. This is because introversion is common among 9s, and thus it will naturally influence the 8. 8w9s are more laid-back and can have an appearance of little energy. But this is far from the truth - all 8s are characteristically energetic, be it spiritually, mentally or physically.
However, if we tread on MBTI grounds, 8s are primarily ESTJs, ENTJs, INTJs, and many are ISTJs, ESTPs and ENTPs. There's not a chance in hell that there could be an ENTp 8 in socionics terms though. Far too avoidant of conflict. Same applies to INTjs.
If you're curious, I am MBTI ENTJ. Possibly ESTJ. When I came to socionics, I would have liked to apply this to it, and found I couldn't, because of the ENTj's 6th function. If Expat would be willing to rewrite the Wikisocion description of the 6th function, I would consider ENTj. I find it difficult to believe that all ENTjs are 6-like in their endeavours.
Have you ever known an ISTp? :lol:
No, I haven't.
Are you going to answer my question?
You're putting WAY too much emphasis on the hidden agenda, especially considering you're basing it on one description, and it's not even by a "professional" Socionist (no offense Expat). I think it makes ENTjs sound weaker than they really are, ESPECIALLY if you're only focusing on that aspect of the type.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
It's very important to look at QUADRA VALUES in tying Socionics types to enneagram types. Temperament, too.... but especially quadra values.
Not all 8s are dominating and aggressive all the time, btw. I know you know this.
Go back to page 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
btw, I brought it up because ISTps are one of the most laid back types you'll ever meet. They don't give a shit about others trying to control them, either. They just ignore them and do what they want. :lol:
Apologies, Joy, I missed it.
Sounds like you are 8w7 with a stronger link to 5 than 2. Much like me, but I am 8w9 and sp/sx as opposed to sx/sp. Most 8s are sx/sp. So-first 8s are rare, but they do exist.
Oh? I thought you were 8w7? Did you change your mind or am I just confused? :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Yes, quite characteristic of an 8. Authority is rarely an issue for the 8 for the reason that they're confident in the fact that 'they may think they're controlling me, but I know at heart that I am in control'. The kind of constant thinking about control is more likely to chime with the 6. They are more concerned about authority, because they recognise that they can be controlled, and so react against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
I've considered my wing for a very long time. I've decided that 8w9 fits my lifestyle more than 8w7 does. I'm essentially pretty homely at heart. And I have the dual nature of the 8w9 - aggression and gentleness. It's the paradox of the 8w9; the lovingness of the 9 and the toughness of the 8. You will never see an 8w7 acting gently when they're not integrating to 2, simply because they don't. They are constantly tough. They are in your face. They are expansive. They are the 8s that live life big, drink big, eat big, fuck big. Of course, all 8s do this, but it is so much more evident in the 8w7 than the 8w9.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
I mean, 8's are conscious of who is trying to control them. They may think 'they may think they're controlling me, but I know at heart that I am in control', they're still aware of it. ISTps just don't give a shit for the most part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
8's may not have the same anxiety about authority that 6's can, but if someone tries to control them they don't respond favorably. What of key motivations and fears? 8's are described as needing to either live outside the system or dominate it.
Ezra, I am trying to determine if I am an 8w9 or a 1w9. How can I differentiate properly between the two?
What do you think of these descriptions? http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/chwings.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
I don't usually dominate people directly... I can explain what I mean better in a PM if you want.
.
I wouldn't say it does. From what I've read of ENTjs thus far, they put tremendous pressure on themselves in working and overcoming obstacles. But they are less independent as one might have you believe. Far less independent than the ENTp, I think. Then again, independence is not something that comes naturally to 6s, and I think most ENTjs are 6s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
While not every single detail counts when considering a type, every single function does.
I disagree. 8s characteristically value Se. If you take your theory, this means that those in Alpha who value Se - ESE - and in Delta who value Se - SLI - can't be 8s. But Castro is a well-known 8w9, and he's ESE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Nonetheless, Se is more subdued I suppose. It's more likely that 8s will be SLEs, LSIs (Beta) and SEEs (Gamma).
Of course not. But if you are indeed an 8, you should know that this is nature to you. Every 8 knows this. If you don't, you can't be an 8. If you have to actually try to be dominating and aggressive, you're not an 8. I for one recognise how tiring it is for me. It's an awful habit, and those around me see it as my major weakness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Also note this Joy, just for your own curiosity: cp6s are like 8s in their aggression and often combative stance. But they are self-doubting at heart, unlike the self-confident 8.
No, Expat is not an 8w9. Especially not if he is a certified ENTj.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana
I think he is a 6w5 or 5w6.
The life goal of ENTjs is to be independent. :shock:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
All Betas and Gammas value Se. No Alphas or Betas do. These are the quadra values:Quote:
I disagree. 8s characteristically value Se. If you take your theory, this means that those in Alpha who value Se - ESE - and in Delta who value Se - SLI - can't be 8s. But Castro is a well-known 8w9, and he's ESE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Nonetheless, Se is more subdued I suppose. It's more likely that 8s will be SLEs, LSIs (Beta) and SEEs (Gamma).
Alpha: Ne/Si, Ti/Fe
Beta: Ni/Se, Ti/Fe
Gamma: Ni/Se, Te/Fi
Delta: Ne/Si, Te/Fi
Actually, I try not to be. :?Quote:
Of course not. But if you are indeed an 8, you should know that this is nature to you. Every 8 knows this. If you don't, you can't be an 8. If you have to actually try to be dominating and aggressive, you're not an 8. I for one recognise how tiring it is for me. It's an awful habit, and those around me see it as my major weakness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
That's exactly why I can't be a 6.Quote:
Also note this Joy, just for your own curiosity: cp6s are like 8s in their aggression and often combative stance. But they are self-doubting at heart, unlike the self-confident 8.
Wait, what's tiring for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
I once knew someone who was an 8w9, and who decided that he was a 1w9, only to revert back to 8w9. He said that he 'thought 8s were just stupid' but realised that he was wrong. He wasn't stupid. I'm not stupid. In fact, every 8 I've known isn't stupid. These ridiculous stereotypes of neanderthals with no intellect being 8s are pathetic. There is little truth in them.Quote:
Originally Posted by UDP
Truth and justice are very important issues for both 8s and 1s. But whereas 1s will normally follow the rules and stick to the 'right' way, 8s have a much more dulled perception concerning morality. I, for example, would consider myself as amoral. Not because I do shitty things in others' eyes, but because I don't believe in objective morality. This would give a 1 a panic attack. They are gut-orientated like the 8, but they have a very strong sense of right and wrong. Ethics comes naturally to them. 8s on the other hand are not afraid to diverge from 'morality' so as to get what they want. 1s make good lawyers, but 8s make better ones, for different reasons. Ideally, honesty, integrity and a total dedication to the upholdance of the law are prerequisite for lawyers, and 1s are perfect for this. However, things are not ideal. And this is why the 8 is a better lawyer. They can cope with the immorality of the law, and the corrupt nature of many of those upholding it. They will fight for themselves and their clients (because they pay them), but a 1 will always have that niggling conscience.
The key difference between the 1 and the 8 is in the way their anger manifests itself. It is harder to discern between an 8w9 and a 1w9 than it is to discern between an 8w7 and a 1w9, but it is possible. A 1's anger is repressed, turned on themselves, and takes the form of self-criticism. They are good at keeping it on a leash when necessary. However, they can be extremely impatient with others, and often you'll see 'flashes of fury' like you do in the ESTj. An ESTj is an archetypal 1 in my eyes. The 8w9's anger is very different. It is much more easily and often expressed in the 8w7 than the 8w9, but it is still an 8's anger nonetheless, and so remains direct and powerful, unlike the 1's restrained anger. The 8w9's anger is rather like a sleeping volcano, and while it might take a while for the build up, once it does, the volcano can erupt, and then suddenly be gone.
8s are also more laid back than 1w9s. Although they both have 9s wings, it appears to influence the 8 more, but this is only because the 8 is characteristically much more internally calm than the 1. 1s are critical, meticulous and hardworking. 8s can be the same, and very often are. 1s are also perfectionistic. I'm quite perfectionistic about grammar amongst other things, but 1s can go over the top in my view. They're more prone to OCD than 8s (an OCD 8 is highly improbable). And as I mentioned before, conscience is evident in the 1. It can seem very much lacking in the 8 by contrast.
Being dominating and aggressive. It's tiring because it's habitual. It's tiring because it's the same story - and because I've got more of an awareness of my actions, I recognise the patterns behind that which I do and say, and how I affect others because of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
So why can't they overcome obstacles by themselves?Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Good, that's a healthy sign. I've been working on it in recent months.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
It's not that they can't (or won't) overcome obstacles by themselves, it's that they need to draw on external sources of power to do so. Yeah, they need Se input, but they're incomplete without it and a healthy ENTj will seek it out, whether it's from a mate, friend, book, music, whatever. They psyche themselves up to do what they need to do, but they will do what's necessary to reach their goals (again, provided they're healthy). The easiest way to do it is to be in a close relationship with they're dual because then the Se is provided automatically instead of being something they need to find a way procure for themselves when necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Balance is key.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
I think I've toned down my aggressiveness too much, to be honest. I first toned it down as a young adult because I got tired of making people cry. :? I toned it down even more when I was with an INTj because he responded so negatively to it. I felt like a monster sometimes. I dunno. I'm sure it'll be fine, I just need to keep doing what I'm doing.
Your bit about 8s only furthers my belief in my being 1w9. Morality comes easily to me, and 8s seem overtly simplistic and short sighted. As in, their body is their entire life, and as long as it is safe and they are happy - they have money and wealth and power - they will be fine and content.
I'm not sure that's what all 8's are like... it sounds more like an ESTp version of 8.
.
Yes.
It is I.Quote:
People of Enneatype One are idealists. They are idealists in the sense that they bring to all of their experience an implicit sense of “how things should be.” This sense of an unmet ideal permeates the One’s experience of the world. It is as though they were simultaneously aware of how things are and of how they should be. Since reality as the One perceives it, and the ideal as the One conceives it, very infrequently coincide, Ones experience reality as being essentially flawed and approach it from a standpoint of frustration.
I do not think reality itself is flawed - I think it is magnificent. How we as humans are going about things, however - there is much room for improvement there.
Of course, because you've met EVERY 8 and found them other than ENTj. Sorry, but I don't buy your authority here. My friend is an 8w9, sp/so AND absolutely ENTj/ENTJ. Not a 6, and not other than ENTj. No description illustrates him so eloquently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
To speak in such rigid absolutes is characteristic of a reductionist viewpoint, which I find far too simplistic in every case involving such a fluid quality like personality.
I agree with this. I have known an "archetypal" 1(w2); holds a grudge that never fades. We were once friends, but now (5 or 6 years later) she still won't make eye contact with me. Unbelievable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
EXACTLY. 8s don't need to seek Se out! They have it! It's inherent within them! It would be insane to suggest that an 8 need to find energy or a 'prod' from others. It defies everything about the 8's unique ability to conjure up the power within them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
8w9s may be slightly less self-starting and expansive than 8w7s, and perhaps less flaunting of their huge energy, but they are 8s nonetheless. There is no excuse. No 8 can be an ENxj in socionics theory. It is contradictory, it is illogical and it is incorrect.
ugh I'm starting a thread on this topic later :lol:
I have more to say but don't have time now.
My best friend is an INTj I think. He reacts awfully to my aggression, so I have no choice but to tone down on it so as to cooperate with him. Combat is wearing, even for 8s. Yes, we have the appearance of unlimited energy - but no, this is not unlimited. Eventually, after everyone is dead ( :P ), 8s calm down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Mmm, that sounds a little condescending and simple-minded. But it also sounds like the view of a 1. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by UDP
I think perhaps I was looking at 8s from an average-to-unhealthy perspective. They can actually become very self-surrendering, altruistic and magnanamous people when healthy. The key characteristics of any 8 though is independence (or appearance of), large energy and self-confidence. All 8s are this.
Nonetheless, I think in some ways your view is correct. 8s are quite simplistic. Their anger and aggression is much simpler, for example, than the cp6's who can resemble the 8; theirs is unpredictable and irrational - there is normally a method to the 8's anger, and less of a reactive nature to it as with the cp6.
Joy, a typical 8 looks just like an ESTp. In fact, while in MBTI, most 8s are ExTJs (like me), in socionics, most 8s are ESTps, some even being ESFps, which in MBTI is almost impossible (8s are characteristically Thinking, not Feeling, although there are Feeling 8s). In socionics, they're far more likely to be ESTps than ESTjs, two of the most likely types for 8 in my - and anyone else with knowledge of both the Enneagram and socionics' - opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Thunder, I'd be happy to help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder
The test Joy posted earlier on with her results is a good place to start. There are also summaries of each type on that site, as well as mistypings, and how we often mistype. Take a look at that, and if you're having trouble deciding on your type out of a few (even if it's between 1w2 and 1w9, for example), ask me and I'll differentiate between the types for you.
You're missing the point. 8s by definition cannot be ENTjs. It's not a case of meeting every one and using induction to say that 'every 8 I've met is not an ENTj'. It's about using induction to say that:Quote:
Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
a. 8s are adept in Se
b. Se as ENTj's 6th function shows that the ENTj is inept in some way concerning it
c. Therefor 8s cannot be ENTjs
It's not a case of 'buying' my authority. It's a case of looking at the hard facts, and correlating them using logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
I will happily concede that your friend is an ENTJ (in MBTI terms) 8w9 - I am also. But he is not an ENTj in socionical terms, no matter how well he might fit any description (never base your evidence on descriptions alone when typing, by the way - you must look at EVERYTHING, most importantly functions and their ordering).Quote:
Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
It's not pointlessly rigid - these definitions are here for a reason, and they can be correlated. You cannot concede logic when correlating. To claim that your friend is an ENTj 8 is to be illogical. It is more simplistic to say what you're saying; that people can be ENTj 8s simply because they fit both descriptions perfectly and because functions don't actually matter when considering a personality, since it's too complex to define anyway. You need to get to the centre of it, otherwise you're making unfounded assumptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by aka-kitsune