SLI-EIE Conflicting Relations (ISTp and ENFj)

What exactly are the attributes of each of these types that repel the other?

I am no expert on this topic, however I have noticed that ISTPs boss ENFJs around, whereas ENFJs keep criticizing ISTPs and make them do things for "the cause".

There are two things that you should keep separated.

1 They probably indeed have attributes that repel eachother. I don't know any examples however.
2 Your counscious is sensitive enough to feel that the other person has tools that work against you, this fact makes the relationship problematic. (conflict relationships have mutual attraction in the beginning and repel and conflict in the end.

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Originally Posted by mr_maguoo

What exactly are the attributes of each of these types that repel the other?

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ENFjs are Fe EJs. That means that they are proactive in getting an emotional response of other people. In ESFjs' case, this tends to be more the immediate, short-term response as in getting the other person to laugh, feel happy, loving etc.

In ENFjs' case, the above may also apply but they are more focused on a longer-term kind of emotional response to the ENFj, which means accepting the ENFj in whatever image the ENFj desires to project, or accept the social role that the ENFj has chosen to adopt in a given environment. Also, as a Beta extrovert, and as ENFj in particular, ENFj feel it's up to them to get others mobilized into a group Fe atmosphere, which they see as the ideal situation.

While that works wonderfully for an ISTj - the ENFj's dual - it is disastrous for the ISTp. The ISTj does want to get involved in the same kind of Fe atmosphere but needs an external "push"; the ISTp does not want any of this and is annoyed if someone tries that on him. The ISTj also sees people largely through their social roles and so will be inclined to go for the one the ENFj is projecting; the ISTp does not want even to acknowledge the existence of that kind of social roles or "image".

The ENFj will tend to act towards the ISTp as a particularly "stagnant" ISTj and so double efforts, which will do nothing but annoy the ISTp even further. And so on.

The ISTp measures comfort and well-being through Si and Te, so if the ISTp tries to approach at all the ENFj it will be on those two areas - in the form of detailed and practical information and efforts in the short-term - which the ENFj sees as of little importance and annoying, too.

The ENFj sees the ISTp as a sullen or awkward lazy person who wastes their time on trivial low-level detailed stuff, besides being anti-social and emotionally hostile to the ENFj.

The ISTp sees the ENFj as a "good for nothing but talk" annoying person who is useless with real work and wastes their time with big and emotional talk about nonsense.

I have an ENFj dad and an ISTp husband.

My dad thinks my husband is aloof, lazy, and stingy and doesn't buy me enough stuff, like birthday presents and things like that.

My husband says my dad "has to emotionally dominate every room he is in" and won't leave him alone. Oh he thinks my dad lives for drama and emotional turmoil. And he thinks my dad is loud.

So that is one example of an ENFj and ISTp.

I have a buddy of mine that is an ENFJ. He is quite pushy and damanding. Sometimes he shows up at the most unexpected times and wants me to go with him somewhere. And at those times...usually, I am not ready to go anywhere. So he tells me to hurry up and do whatever, I just respond in an aggitated manner telling not to rush me. He has sometimes pushed my buttons real good like, to the point I have wanted to punch him in the face. Example: We were at a place called Numbers, which is a bar/dance club, and I was not liking the place because it was not my place to have fun. There were 5 of us there. Three males and two females. They all take off and leave me. I really didn't pay attention, neither did I care at the moment. While we were leaving to go to the my other friend's car, he saids something that really pisses me off. "Awww, Smithy was left all alone." (Smithy is my nick-name, all my friends call me by that.) I wanted to tear him a new one when he said that. I was very angry at his stupid comment.

I have an ISTp friend. He belittles everything that I talk about. When I talk about how difficult an exam is, he makes a comment about how pointless it is for me to study for master's degree. When I say I'd like to go on a holiday in a warm place, he suggests I go to a solarium and I buy a sweet cocktail in a pub in Tartu, so I could save myself the trouble of going anywhere... He sometimes treats me like a natural disaster - he can't avoid my opinionated talk, so he'll just smooth it out by contradicting me and saying none of it makes a difference. When I try to make a compliment, he coldly says he doesn't care what others think. Basically, I have dedicated myself to my goals and to the belief that I will be happier once I achieve my goals. And he casually says the goals are worthless. If I dream of a holiday, why would anyone say, "holidays are pointless, why do you want to go there anyway" and he'll actually try to PROVE that tourist holidays are a waste of time and money or that university degrees are pointless even though he knows that I'm a student.

After years of interaction he has at least learned to appreciate my good mood. He used to try to give me a reality check whenever I was too positive, but this has changes. I'm usually rather serious, worried and scatter minded, but when I'm in a very energetic talkative mood, he somewhat encourages it. He is worried that I don't get along with our ENFp friend because of him. In the presence of the ISTp, the ENFp gets more delta and I don't like it much. Lately I've been avoiding the ENFp.

He used to be my Dungeon Master in a game and I was the main voice of the adventuring party. This meant that we had a negative and big argument almost every game!!! "NOOoo! You can't say it's impossible, because your NPC did the same thing! It's unfair! You just don't want us to succeed, do you?!". Neither one of us have any illusion about the conflicting nature of the relationship. I don't try to avoid him in any way, but I have started to avoid groups where I would be overpowered by deltas. I can handle the one ISTp.

Sometimes he does things that seem very sweet to me. Like one time when we had a game of D&D, he had brought bananas. At one point I was feeling very hungry all of a sudden and I asked him if he has any to spare. He sounded extremely sad and worried when he said " :o :( no, they are all finished". It wasn't a problem because I easily found something else to eat in the kitchen (game took place in my home). :) But the next time we had a game, he brought about 2kg of bananas just in case. awww so sweet, taking care of my :Si: . But the way he got so sad over not being able to give me food... I had never heard him with that tone of voice before. The exact same tone of voice that my ISFp gym instructor had when I told him I had injured myself. :P

He knows me very well. One time he mentioned he knows my motive behind my actions in one certain situation. I kinda laughed and asked curiously, "Really? Tell me too, because I'm not sure I could articulate my motives". and he explained my behavior and reasoning very accurately. My husband was also there and we were both very amused because it had been so accurate.

Well, ISTPs can be alittle be of a drag when hanging out with them. I am not a strong ISTP, I am more of an ISXP. But I can see points from both sides of the story. Just don't let him drag you down when you have dreams of your own. Tune it out the crap and don't let it get to you. I love D&D by the way and I am trying to get a game together, my first which will take forever and I dont have forever, I just haven;t put any effort into it because I havent had any ideas hit me so far. And I have no motivation either. :D

Yes, I know we are total opposites, but it's such a strong attraction I couldn't help it!

I posted this to know if any ISTP's here have managed to go out with a ENFJ girl. My current girlfriend is an ENFJ, and sometimes she's so probish (asks too many questions about what im thinking, feeling, etc), and just can't take a hint when I tell her "I don't want to talk about it", with it being anything that's pissing me off at the moment.

In fact, before I found about personality types, we were at each other's throats for the last 3 months almost every other day (We've been together for a year and a half). Talk about exhausting.

Anyway, just want to know your experiences.

Holy crap. You've been with an ENFj for that long!? Kudos, man. Well, recently I've been hearing all this stuff regarding how ENFjs + ISTps are the most similar types in terms of brain chemistry.. definitely not sure what to believe about that, but yeah.

So when ENFjs probe, what do you do? Keep answering? Why don't you just tell them you don't wanna talk about it straight up? Have you ever done so? I am quite attracted to the idea of ISTps too, but I am afraid of pissing them off as you say.

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Originally Posted by ScarlettLux

Holy crap. You've been with an ENFj for that long!? Kudos, man. Well, recently I've been hearing all this stuff regarding how ENFjs + ISTps are the most similar types in terms of brain chemistry.. definitely not sure what to believe about that, but yeah.

So when ENFjs probe, what do you do? Keep answering? Why don't you just tell them you don't wanna talk about it straight up? Have you ever done so? I am quite attracted to the idea of ISTps too, but I am afraid of pissing them off as you say.

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Moody? haha, for the first year I wasn't. Then I just had a hard time with it and started getting a shorter fuse, so much so that she started to not like me as much. While I feel incredibly bad about that, I've been getting better now that I know her questions aren't there to deliberatly piss me off, they're there to just get inside my head.

And thanks for the kudos, man, it's felt so far like a really long ride.
When she keeps probing, I keep answering until I've had enough and say "I don't want to talk about it". But she feels like I'm pushing her away and just keeps asking , and eventually saying "Oh you never want to talk!".

But that isn't even the biggest challenge, really. The biggest, most absolutely hugest (not a word :P) deal with ENFJ's is that they have a real hard time being alone. I LOVE being alone sometimes to clear my head and think, and before, she wouldn't let me do that. Whenever I said "I need an alone day", She felt that she was being abandoned, and that she was the one always initiating everything; and she was the one who always "wanted to come over" and "had to ask for sex". I compromised for a year before I just started to snap! And HARD.

Anyway, now she's moving like 25 miles away so hopefully she'll understand that one of the things I value most in my life is my alone time. So for all of you girls thinking about dating an ISTP, please!!! You can take away our booze, you can take away our fast cars, but for the love of god don't be so cruel and take away our alone time. We wither and die :(

But me and her are getting better :)

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I LOVE being alone sometimes to clear my head and think, and before, she wouldn't let me do that. Whenever I said "I need an alone day", She felt that she was being abandoned, and that she was the one always initiating everything; and she was the one who always "wanted to come over" and "had to ask for sex". I compromised for a year before I just started to snap! And HARD.

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Yea. Totally understand how you feel.
I was with an ENFj once. Not a normal one, a really weird one. Worst ENFj I knew. Couldn't leave me alone. Even when I had work to do. :?

haha. And don't worry. Some people need more alone time than others. I think most people know that.

Hmm. Good luck. Thats all i can say :8*

I have alot of experiences with ISTp too... One is medoicre, one with lots of experience and lessons, one that ended fast and both enjoyed it, and one is disgusting (friend who betrayed me and critisized me over few years and during my hard hard period was making me bad and percepting and projecting on me wery bad image that made me bad, the final is bad thouhg (may be he is ISFp?))

I wrote some stuff in "failed dual" relationships thread about it btw....

ISTp cant understand that ENFj just need acceptance and accepted, esp when they feeling much, and telling "go avay" or "i have my own buisness" is bad thing to do.

Anyways - the best solutions for those - being just spectator of other actions from some distance. If it not possible better just go to "EXIT" and dissapear completely , aviding any contact (from both sides)

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Originally Posted by meatburger

Hmm. Good luck. Thats all i can say :8*

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lol, I will pre-book a place in a mental home for you so its there when you need it :o

Really tho, good luck, there must be something to your relationship if its lasted that long already.

Whenever these types get together within a 1 mile radius, for any reason, they spontaniously combust.

Nostros & LokiVanguard

You are both aware that this is Socionics, and not MBTI, right? They are not the same thing? By your interactions and signature quotes, it almost sounds like you are unaware of what socionics is.

No, I know that there is a significant difference, I just forget to type ENFj, ISTp, etc most of the time.
And I took a socionics test from this site, and it gave me the same (SLI - ISTp) type.

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Originally Posted by Sorc

telling "go avay" (away)

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In my experience ISTp rarely say so. Maybe it's just the way you apprach them.

There are two emotional persons from my observations:

1.- Those who display a wide range of emotions and focus on the emotions themselves.
2.- Those who display a wide range of emotions, but whose emotions are a result of something else, like work, ideas, etc.

I personally don't like emotions just because the sake of it. In fact, I dislike it very much when a person is focusing on "me" insteand of what I'm doing/thinking. I believe that you shouldn't open your mouth if you have nothing to say. Maybe people should work more on making their conversations more meaningful.

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Originally Posted by flower

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Originally Posted by meatburger

Hmm. Good luck. Thats all i can say :8*

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lol, I will pre-book a place in a mental home for you so its there when you need it :o

Really tho, good luck, there must be something to your relationship if its lasted that long already.

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Thanks :lol: I felt like I needed it a month ago. Maybe not so much now, but i'll have to see how this crazy ride turns out.

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Originally Posted by mikemex

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Originally Posted by Sorc

telling "go avay" (away)

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In my experience ISTp rarely say so. Maybe it's just the way you apprach them.

There are two emotional persons from my observations:

1.- Those who display a wide range of emotions and focus on the emotions themselves.
2.- Those who display a wide range of emotions, but whose emotions are a result of something else, like work, ideas, etc.

I personally don't like emotions just because the sake of it. In fact, I dislike it very much when a person is focusing on "me" insteand of what I'm doing/thinking. I believe that you shouldn't open your mouth if you have nothing to say. Maybe people should work more on making their conversations more meaningful.

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i think normal ENFj is just a person who have very reasons for each emotion he express, and falling in category 2 you described (as well as to 1st)

I never show emotions for "sake of it", it have always reasons, most of times hidden, and most of times opposite of how it looks at the moment.
All my life i building "chains" of happenings, and this is way how i represent, produce and percept things.

I am sure contact with ISTp can be done.... in way you will both go some way "outside" your types... that means change something withing yourself for something other... its not easy, but if both want this its possible.... somewhere i saw notice that your type can be changed during life.... thats a case i think....

PS: about ISTp saying go away, yes, they actually dont say that, they act so, but never say

anyways i believe that all what matters is human soul, his personality and type is less.... i met one girl now, i dunno what is her type (may be she is ISTp even (or ISTj)) and i dont really care about it, i feel thats its awesome and that i want her very much for my life, and if i will know for sure her type i would transform myself to be best i can for her/dual if it necessary.

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Originally Posted by HitmanISTP

You see, ENFJs are like HR Managers. You go up to them and you tell them your problem and they act emphatic pretending to help you for 15-30 minutes and then when you leave the office they act against you. If I was an HR Manager I would go straight for the kill and tell them what they can do to improve themselves in one minute. Now both of us don't solve your issue, except one wastes more time and probably makes you feel better about yourself. The other doesn't waste time but probably makes you feel like you shouldn't come back to us.

I've had several cold wars with ENFJs (both female and male) and I noticed that if they were going to try to attack me in whatever way they usually get a group of people to launch at me, while my method is to do a precision strike to cut them down which is not hard since they expose themselves constantly.

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HR Managers? Yeah, if they felt to need to completely flip out whenever you don't spout all the emotions you're feeling in that moment.

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Originally Posted by HitmanISTP

You see, ENFJs are like HR Managers. You go up to them and you tell them your problem and they act emphatic pretending to help you for 15-30 minutes and then when you leave the office they act against you. If I was an HR Manager I would go straight for the kill and tell them what they can do to improve themselves in one minute. Now both of us don't solve your issue, except one wastes more time and probably makes you feel better about yourself. The other doesn't waste time but probably makes you feel like you shouldn't come back to us.

I've had several cold wars with ENFJs (both female and male) and I noticed that if they were going to try to attack me in whatever way they usually get a group of people to launch at me, while my method is to do a precision strike to cut them down which is not hard since they expose themselves constantly.

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haha Hitman.. i think what you said about enfj spending time on someone is very true.... but as an ENFJ male myself i have to disagree that when the person leave office then we backstabb them in the back. IF we really dont like the guy we will tell them in a very humble and tactful way that we dont like them we will never be fake.

My mom is ENFj. It's the weirdest fucking relationship ever. Ups & downs, understanding & conflict, love & fight... constant waves, it changes like a mother fuckin' ocean... What I tend to get very often from people is "You guys are TOO much alike!" which I guess confirms what some others have said about ISTp's and ENFj's being the most similar (conflicting) types or something... I have thought that ISTp's have the most similar observable qualities with ENTp's, but I guess ENFj's can appear even more similar to ISTp's from outside. Whatever...

At first, I guess you can make the call that ISTp's and ENFj's are similar.

That's an interesting thought.

Whether I'm convinced that I'm an ISTp or even that Socioncs is worth a hoot in the first place is not particularily relevent here, but I find that as far as my 'conflicting type' goes, the ENFjs on this forum seem absent with the PoLR-whacking. In fact, Kristiina comes across in a very attractive manner - not trying to be creepy or anything, just stating a fact.

That said, my real-life experiences with those who appear to be ENFj have been less than stellar. Like I said, it's an interesting thought to think that at first we may seem quite alike to outside observers.

(Can that be exploited? :lol: )

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Originally Posted by Winterpark

some others have said about ISTp's and ENFj's being the most similar (conflicting) types or something...

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If this is true it would be interesting in terms of global type dynamics. It could partially explain why so many EIE-s end up so high in power. Less resistance form their conflictor.

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Originally Posted by force my hand

That's an interesting thought.

Whether I'm convinced that I'm an ISTp or even that Socioncs is worth a hoot in the first place is not particularily relevent here, but I find that as far as my 'conflicting type' goes, the ENFjs on this forum seem absent with the PoLR-whacking. In fact, Kristiina comes across in a very attractive manner - not trying to be creepy or anything, just stating a fact.

That said, my real-life experiences with those who appear to be ENFj have been less than stellar. Like I said, it's an interesting thought to think that at first we may seem quite alike to outside observers.

(Can that be exploited? :lol: )

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No worries, I get attracted to ENFj's alot too. usually goes away in a few months though ;)

Deleted due to Mistyping. Dad's probably LSI and Mum's probably ESE. Conflicts generally revolve around Ne and Ni issues.

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Originally Posted by unefille

In these moments, they seem pessimistic, because they extrapolate from their past experiences what is going to happen: since the EIE's vision wasn't realistic in the past, it is still not realisitc now.

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http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ons/icon14.gif

I would agree, and I also have this combination of parents. Howver, mine seldom, if ever fight- they tend more to feed off each other and then unify in attack against another when annoyed/worried/frustrated/whatever.

The SLI in particular loses all sense of ethics and fights dirty when a fight is on.

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Originally Posted by bee

The SLI in particular loses all sense of ethics and fights dirty when a fight is on.

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Yeah, that's me, but only an EIE can make me explode like that.

SLI's are good people.

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Originally Posted by dolphin

Character, in the long run, is the decisive factor in the life of an individual and of nations alike.

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>:0

All I know is that ENFj's do seem very nice and friendly on the outside..... and yet...something about them inside ..... :/

SLIs - usually mean and cold on the outside, behavior and attitudes... and yet... their motivations on the inside are very noble and good. :) so it's all vice versa. :P

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Originally Posted by Winterpark

Yeah, that's me, but only an EIE can make me explode like that.

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Trust me, when the time is perfectly fine, an SEI will do. If my ethics get pushed too far and I erupt- if it affects his creature comforts and undermines his authority, OMFG look out!

The worst thing is, the dirtier and lower the fight goes, the more upset and angered I become, until Nick drags me away to boil over in another room and cry/scream/punch it out.

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Originally Posted by Kristiina

SLIs - usually mean and cold on the outside, behavior and attitudes... and yet... their motivations on the inside are very noble and good. :) so it's all vice versa. :P

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Haha, this is so funny because just yesterday when we got home with my mom that's almost exactly what she said to me. It was like "You have so much good qualities inside of you, you're so kind and affectionate, but that's all so worthless if you keep being so mean and spiteful. If only you could change that bad mouth of yours, etc etc etc..." :D

As for executing plans, I know I either want to be working off my own vision, or else I want a specific plan of attack from the other person. Them wanting me to "buy into" their vision is crap. I can't do that, and resent the expectation to.
However, I'm good at refining plans, so when someone comes to me and says "I want to do this, and this is how I think I'll reach that goal. While I'm doing this, can you do that to help me get ready for ...", not only will I likely be willing to pitch in, but I'll also make a suggestion or two on how to either streamline the process or else take a similar path to an even better result.

As for fighting, I rarely fight or argue. But the few times I and my SO at the time got into heated discussion, I am far more likely to have withdrawn instead of explode. I do not call names, and I do not react to being called names, unless you count exasperation with the immature behavior. If an act or attitude is attributed to me and I disagree with the other person's interpretation, I may get defensive, but usually after the first defensive statement or two I get the feeling I'm not getting anywhere and try to redirect the conversation (though that rarely works either, hence, ultimately, getting the fuck away).

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Originally Posted by iAnnAu

I am far more likely to have withdrawn instead of explode.

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I am naturally like that, also. But living with an EIE has made me too quick to react sometimes.

So, if I may venture to ask.... how can we EIEs maintain harmony and avoid arguments with SLIs???

[[edited for length]]

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Originally Posted by unefille

I wasn't sure what forum to post this in, but this is something I wrote in an email this morning as my parents were fighting outside my bedroom.

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EIE - tendency to state the 'obvious' about the situation (as thought attempting to ascertain whether there is consensus on how they feel about the issue), which usually aggravates the SLI. Tends to state things in an urgent and emotive tone, as though encouraging the other person to engage in their sense of anxiety and their 'vision' of the future.

SLI - resists this emotive manipulation. Sees the immediate implications of what the EIE is proposing - 'no your grand plan is for shit, because in order to achieve it, I have to do x, y and z and I can't DO x, y, and z.

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Oh boy have I ever been in that position.

I know that SLI is my conflictor, and in extreme cases in the past, especially when i was in grade school, I really hate this SLI for so many reason, I have fought with him maybe like 10 times in one year. I think we were both at fault, I found him to be cold, and tough, and even his natural demeanor pisses me off. I am also sure he hates me for me just being an ENFj. But over the years i have grown up, and gotten matured. I think that the SLI are not that bad people after all. I have even tried so much to try to get along with SLI in my life, which makes it worse, they hate my FE. That's why we are conflictor. But now that my brother-in-law is an ISTP, my sister is an INTj, I dont see him as the typical description of an lazy and cold person many would think of an SLI. He is ambitious, and quiet. I even rememeber my family was talking about politics one day, and he all of the sudden flares up, unlike his usually demeanor which was clam and quiet and he debated heatedly to me about politics. But beyond this, I sometimes even sneak into my sisters room in the past and read his love letters to my sister, which mostly contains FI description of how he feels about her. He is a good writer and his FI is sweet, I have to admit that. He loves my sister so much that his business. house and most of his asset are in my sister's name. For me however, I can never get closed with an SLI, I just cannot, the more FE I try the more they reject. My SLI brother in law try everything he can to get along with me with his weak Fi hidden agenda and I see that he tres his best to accept my Fe and response warmly with it, Most of the time, I ignore his Fi response towards me only because it is my ignoring functions. which afterward when i think about it, he really made a strong effort to be my brother-in-law. But I am willing to admit, Even I dont think i am as nice of a person deep inside than my SLI brother in law, Just so that we are completely different and how we show apprecation towards each other is accepted in a different way.

If she'd quit trying so hard and stop caring so much, maybe that'd improve things. It would for me.

Aside from the line

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I think that the SLI are not that bad people after all.

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I didn't really understand where mpiazza was being judgmental either. I thought he was just stating his observations of what the SLI seems like to him from the outside.

But generally with SLIs, I would think you should smile but don't laugh too much (tone your Fe down), be agreeable (less of a control freak), don't try too hard (less Fe again), don't try to be 'quirky' (Ni+Fe). I take naps around them. I find if I'm asleep and 'relaxing' I'm at my least 'offensive'. And talk about sound systems, or baking or healthy, wholesome activities you can do together, like hiking or fishing. Don't ever mention a designer brand, a famous person you know, or anything that could remotely be seen as 'name-dropping' and 'self-aggrandisement'. I don't know, IEEs do it to sometimes, but they seem to do it in a way that doesn't piss the SLIs off, whilst when I accidentally mention something like that, it's all 'you think you're so good, don't you??!' Talk less, generally. Less chance of making a mistake.

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Originally Posted by songofsappho

Do you see SLI's as very judgemental and/or critical of you?

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It would depend on the circumstances that I found myself in with the SLI.

I see them as very critical in a situation that involves some sort of hands on expertise - when I'm fooling around and making a mess, but you know, kind of enjoying making a mess - and they just finally seem to *snap* and jump in, without saying very much, and fixing it. In those situations I feel like grabbed a big rubber stamp that says: pathetically inept, stamped me with it and moved on.

Hardest thing about being around SLIs is learning to let go, because any attempts to 'correct their impression of you' is usually seen as somehow imposing via Fe. I just have to accept that they'll think whatever they think about me and I shouldn't be bothered with it. One of my seminar leaders this year was an SLI and I didn't think he was critical or judgmental, but unhelpful, because he wouldn't tell you whether you were going right or wrong, and so it was a 'surprise' when you got your final mark. I just find them difficult to engage because of their lack of engagement and generally, if I don't engage, things are more peaceful.

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Originally Posted by unefille

It would depend on the circumstances that I found myself in with the SLI.

I see them as very critical in a situation that involves some sort of hands on expertise - when I'm fooling around and making a mess, but you know, kind of enjoying making a mess - and they just finally seem to *snap* and jump in, without saying very much, and fixing it. In those situations I feel like grabbed a big rubber stamp that says: pathetically inept, stamped me with it and moved on.

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Instead of jumping in to “help” you in these situations, what would you prefer? Leaving you alone, asking whether you need help, ignoring your “struggle,” or something else?

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Hardest thing about being around SLIs is learning to let go, because any attempts to 'correct their impression of you' is usually seen as somehow imposing via Fe. I just have to accept that they'll think whatever they think about me and I shouldn't be bothered with it. One of my seminar leaders this year was an SLI and I didn't think he was critical or judgmental, but unhelpful, because he wouldn't tell you whether you were going right or wrong, and so it was a 'surprise' when you got your final mark. I just find them difficult to engage because of their lack of engagement and generally, if I don't engage, things are more peaceful.

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This is interesting; it’s cool that you can articulate this so well. And even if you don’t particularly enjoy your interactions w SLI’s, at least you understand where we’re coming from, if only in an abstract way; I wish more EIE’s understood these things.

My experience w EIE’s seems to be the inverse of yours w SLI’s... which makes sense, haha.

I’ve given some thought to the way EIE’s perceive me. It feels like they are always hitting my PoLR, either by giving me “encouragement” to “cheer up” when in fact I feel just fine, or by making me feel that they [and maybe others, I begin to think] consider me an unkind person just because of the lack of external expression. But, I feel powerless to do anything about it. Unwilling as well as powerless, actually - partly because it would be really uncomfortable, and partly because I feel like even if I did try to liven up the way they seem to want I would fail and they would judge me even more.

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Originally Posted by songofsappho

Instead of jumping in to “help” you in these situations, what would you prefer? Leaving you alone, asking whether you need help, ignoring your “struggle,” or something else?

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Leaving me alone if possible without ignoring me. A lot of times I'm messing around - I have no idea what I'm doing and I'm probably making mistakes and doing it very inefficiently, but if I'm mucking around in it (if I'm giving it any attention at all), I've decided that I'm going to figure this out.

Things I don't mind include: making fun of the mess I'm making (levity is always appreciated and it gets the point across without making me seem like the biggest loser ever) and occasionally saying 'don't do X' -- but if only X is so bad that it's going to destroy whatever I'm doing.

Normally, if I need help and I'm comfortable with being helped, I'll ask for it. I have no compunctions with calling out 'HELP ME!' If I'm not asking, it's either because I think I've got a handle on things (or will have, soon) or I'm too embarrassed to ask because I feel pathetic. In the later case, it's still best to ignore me, unless me messing up will affect everyone, in which case, taking over is probably the only strategy. That's where things get tricky though: there are a lot of moments in an EIE's life when we're just too fucking stubborn and an intervention is necessary -- but we won't realise it at the time, or we will, but will ignore our better angels. We'll scream, yell, get angry, through a tantrum, you name it, we'll do it. I think that's probably just unavoidable sometimes. And when we cool down and get our thoughts clear, we will probably feel really bad and apologise profusely.

I think a lot of confusion comes about because Fi-quadra people look at these explosions and the quick apology and 'acting like nothing ever happened' as somewhat insane. And in return, it really hurts the EIE to have it held against them for 'all time' -- it's forgive and erase it altogether, or don't forgive at all. I actually would respect people who just decide NO, and cut me out altogether -- that would hurt me unbelievably, but I would understand it. It's more awful/incomprehensible for me if someone 'sort of' re-engages with me, but at the same makes it clear our relationship can't be the same again. I find that aggravating, I think.

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I’ve given some thought to the way EIE’s perceive me. It feels like they are always hitting my PoLR, either by giving me “encouragement” to “cheer up” when in fact I feel just fine, or by making me feel that they [and maybe others, I begin to think] consider me an unkind person just because of the lack of external expression. But, I feel powerless to do anything about it. Unwilling as well as powerless, actually - partly because it would be really uncomfortable, and partly because I feel like even if I did try to liven up the way they seem to want I would fail and they would judge me even more.

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That does make sense. I don't even realise when I'm using 'Fe' so I just feel like they're rejecting me -- my mood is just 'infectious'. Like, when I was first accused of being EIE (lol), I was like 'no....I suck at Fe.' It's really hard to pause and think I'm doing something that actively affects people's moods -- so it doesn't always click that I'm doing something that affects/makes the SLI uncomfortable. Being more conscious of my Fe has been an interesting experience. :)

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either by giving me “encouragement” to “cheer up” when in fact I feel just fine

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Hm. That's interesting. IRL you didn't come off as 'un-cheery' at all.

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Originally Posted by tiny_dancer

Hm. That's interesting. IRL you didn't come off as 'un-cheery' at all.

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Well thank you; I'm glad. Maybe it's my weekly lunches w my ESFj aunt that have me brianwashed to think I come off as a "Debbie Downer" [her actual words to me yesterday] ;)

Well, I don't think many people on this planet can compare to the cheeriness of an ESE. lol

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Originally Posted by unefille

...We'll scream, yell, get angry, through a tantrum, you name it, we'll do it. I think that's probably just unavoidable sometimes. And when we cool down and get our thoughts clear, we will probably feel really bad and apologise profusely.

I think a lot of confusion comes about because Fi-quadra people look at these explosions and the quick apology and 'acting like nothing ever happened' as somewhat insane. And in return, it really hurts the EIE to have it held against them for 'all time' -- it's forgive and erase it altogether, or don't forgive at all. I actually would respect people who just decide NO, and cut me out altogether -- that would hurt me unbelievably, but I would understand it. It's more awful/incomprehensible for me if someone 'sort of' re-engages with me, but at the same makes it clear our relationship can't be the same again. I find that aggravating, I think.

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I know what you're saying, and I don't find it insane. The only thing that I guess would be the real problem is if it's very recurring and there's no real effort to improve on this. I've had my own bouts of anger and screaming out of frustration (though not really frequent), so I know the feeling of wanting people to just look at it as a venting thing. But what is odd here is your impression that Delta quadra is exempt from acting crazy and angry because they value Fi... I have my own personal beliefs in terms of these things which to me are outside socionics though.

There was one moment in particular worth mentioning that I had with an SLI friend, and we were really close at one point I might add so this wasn't something between two strangers. I was under a lot of stress one week from many factors, and it was just steadily building, and he knew about this as well. So, I was talking to him online one night and he actually was trying to make me angry out of amusement by not answering to what I was writing (which he well knew that sort of thing pisses me off). That was the droplet that spilled the glass... I'm actually afraid of when I lose it, because it's something that I just go all-out on everybody, and it's very hard to calm myself down. Luckily, it happens maybe twice a year only. What made this situation worse for me is to have a friend lead me to this point of all people.

I'm also the type of person that likes to talk things out once and for all, or at least let the other person know what I'm feeling. So I call him up on the phone that night and leave him a voicemail along the lines of "what the fuck is your problem?" Not exactly among my proudest moments :P. Anyway, the next morning he tells me to chill out in a way that he was somehow "above this," which I would later consider that it's actually out of fear of these types of confrontations that he tries to project that attitude... Obviously, just telling me to "chill" does not help, unless someone wants to piss me off even further. What I didn't like was this attitude of being in almost complete disregard for any sort of emotional outburst, as if it was below him in a way. When I have an emotional outburst, or anyone for that matter, there is always something that is trying to be communicated.

But trust me on this, it's a lot better to communicate your problems than to keep silent and be nonconfrontational. I know this very well, even if supposedly Delta doesn't value Fe or Se.

I have to go now so I don't have time to review it much as I like doing :P.

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Originally Posted by unefille

don't try to be 'quirky' (Ni+Fe).

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Bullocks. Ni+Fe is no quirkier than Ne+Fi (or Ne+Ti).

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Originally Posted by Winterpark

Bullocks. Ni+Fe is no quirkier than Ne+Fi (or Ne+Ti).

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yeah, i found that one a bit off. however, the observation about not being a huge snob is probably accurate.

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Originally Posted by Winterpark

Bullocks. Ni+Fe is no quirkier than Ne+Fi (or Ne+Ti).

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But it is obviously different. And no EIE is going to be quirky in an IEE way, so it's easier just to not bother.

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Originally Posted by Sereno

But what is odd here is your impression that Delta quadra is exempt from acting crazy and angry because they value Fi... I have my own personal beliefs in terms of these things which to me are outside socionics though.

But trust me on this, it's a lot better to communicate your problems than to keep silent and be nonconfrontational. I know this very well, even if supposedly Delta doesn't value Fe or Se.

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I actually think that in specific ways and for specific reasons, Delta is more like to communicate or confront the issue. One of the major issues my LSE boss has with me is that I don't 'communicate' or 'confide' my 'problems (at work)' in him enough, so he cant possibly understand how things are going on and thus that makes him worry.

I'll elaborate on this and the fact that I think Fe+Se tempers are much more 'impressive/awful' in volume and different in substance when I get home. Have to ruuuuuun.

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Originally Posted by unefille

But it is obviously different. And no EIE is going to be quirky in an IEE way

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They are going to be quirky in an NF way. :p

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Originally Posted by unefille

so it's easier just to not bother.

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Is quirkiness something you intentionally "bother" to show?

And if there's something you need to know about SLI's it's that they don't appreciate too much pretense and they will always want you to be yourself, that is if you have a 'self' (which is something EIEs clearly lack in. :p)

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Originally Posted by Winterpark

Is quirkiness something you intentionally "bother" to show?

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Yes, but only in the sense that everything is done with some 'intent'. What I meant is 'don't bother to show that facet of your personality', unless your self-esteem is strong enough to take negative reactions. You can chose what you reveal - and if you can't do it yet, you should learn. If I know someone is going to ridicule a particular part of my personality, I simply don't show that part unless I've decided I can take the ridicule.

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And if there's something you need to know about SLI's it's that they don't appreciate too much pretense and they will always want you to be yourself, that is if you have a 'self' (which is something EIEs clearly lack in. :p)

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If you think about it, that is an incredibly paradoxical sentiment - we just want you to be yourself; please stop acting like you do.

That's the problem - to be 'palatable' to SLIs (or other like-minded types), I have to conform to what their notion of 'someone being their own self without pretense is'. Where does this idea of 'me' come from? My theatricality, my mercurial modes, my shifting impressions -- that is me, without pretense. The EIE self is one of highly variable externalised behaviour. I'm not pretending to be someone else -- these are genuine reactions to my external environment. Being the 'self' that you somehow think we're 'not being' in favour of 'another self' would be pretense.

I say this because there was a time when being asked 'who the fuck are you? Just be yourself' would have been seriously debilitating and would have paralysed me mid-step. These days I'm more reconciled with who I am and my reaction is more along the lines of 'who the fuck are you do ask me that?' My behaviour hasn't changed; my attitude has.

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Originally Posted by unefille

That's the problem - to be 'palatable' to SLIs (or other like-minded types), I have to conform to what their notion of 'someone being their own self without pretense is'.

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lol, I like that word. Palatable.

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Originally Posted by unefille

Where does this idea of 'me' come from? My theatricality, my mercurial modes, my shifting impressions -- that is me, without pretense. The EIE self is one of highly variable externalised behaviour. I'm not pretending to be someone else -- these are genuine reactions to my external environment. Being the 'self' that you somehow think we're 'not being' in favour of 'another self' would be pretense.

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How about adapting(/shifting) your behaviour to those around(/depending on who you're with)? Giving people what they want to hear etc... Do you do that too?

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Originally Posted by unefille

I say this because there was a time when being asked 'who the fuck are you? Just be yourself' would have been seriously debilitating and would have paralysed me mid-step. These days I'm more reconciled with who I am and my reaction is more along the lines of 'who the fuck are you do ask me that?' My behaviour hasn't changed; my attitude has.

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Actors...

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Originally Posted by Winterpark

How about adapting(/shifting) your behaviour to those around(/depending on who you're with)? Giving people what they want to hear etc... Do you do that too?

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That's a very difficult question to answer for two reasons: 1. you're asking me to generalise my behaviour when my reactions are contextually situated and difficult to generalise without misrepresentation and 2. what may look like one thing to you might be another to me.

Very generally, I would say that I behave so as to minimise unnecessary friction/abrasiveness. Also that part of what I meant by 'genuine reactions to my external environment' involves changing my behaviour according to who I am near/what situation I am in. But it's me 'genuinely' responding to the circumstances as I perceive them. My reactions are still based in how I want to react to that situation/what I want to achieve out of it.

'Giving people what they want to hear' is also very vague, particularly because I can be highly contrary and/or frank and snide, which I think an ESE is less likely to be. I do adapt my responses to people, but it's done on a very internal and highly subjective calculus -- there is not constant effect (like making people happy/excited) that I am adjusting my behaviour to reproduce.

If you modelled my behaviour vis-a-vis an ESE for instance, I think ESE behaviour is much likely to be f(x, y) = C where x is the variable for your behaviour (the endogenous input) and y is the variable for the external environment (the exogenous input) and C is either a constant or a bounded variable; therefore, as there are only so many forms C can take, shifts in x are more limited and determined by y.

In contrast, EIE behaviour is more like f(x, y) = z, where z is an indeterminate variable. Since z can take an infinite number of forms, x responds to y, but the relationship between x and y is much less deterministic.

Just curious if anyone has anything to say about this.

Just depends on the person.

Gonna say that is how I feel about ENFJs ... I only know two, but they are quite different

Yeah EIEs are a pretty varied bunch; according to some descriptions they are the most temperamentally variable of all types.

Their sense of duty towards family/society/others is kind of odd.

Sometimes they can be mean too, but thats also true of ISTjs.

I dont really find ISTps that annoying but they have their faults which I wrote about above.

I'm not ENFj (well, Maritsa thinks I am) but one thing I dislike about ISTps is how they can be sort of formal and serious a lot and they don't respond very well to grand emotional expressions. It makes me feel like they either don't take me seriously or they don't "get" me or they just don't care. I dunno. In any case, interactions with them can be sort of disappointing. I've only known a couple of male ISTps--I don't know any females.

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Originally Posted by meals

Just curious if anyone has anything to say about this.

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Specificity, especially regarding humor. Also, just the uneasy feeling. I feel as if every movement has been recorded, calculated, and judged. It's the creative Te, obviously. Yet, when coupled with dominant Si, the progression in which things are done matter a lot for whatever reason. I cannot replicate myself that way, and I find it very difficult to try and relate. Yet, I want to, which makes me just feel ... =/ (unless theyre an ass, then I dont care).

My only one consistent issue with SLIs, and Deltas in general, is that they just don't respond well to the way I communicate. When I talk to Deltas I feel like I have to tone myself down or sort of soften up a bit; when I'm being the way its easiest for me to be, it feels like they are sort of waiting for me to soften or something. Sometimes I will try to soften kind of deliberately but it just comes off as fake so I just go on being myself. I get the sense that they often kind of want to like me, and I often want to like them as well, especially the STs because they often come across as people who are both capable and sort of ready for what life will throw at them, and even with some crotchety old LSE men there is a kind of earnestness in their old-man-pack-defender spirit that I really kind of admire when I am able to take a step back and repel my initial reflex which is to scoff at the futility of their pomp, but even when we are both trying I can always feel this kind of un-bridge-able gap in communication that just kind of foils everything. My interactions with SLIs are different, I kind of feel like they give me this condescending look like they are waiting for me to slow down and get real or something. My ESE brother in law does it too, except he usually goes on these philosophical rants that are geared in some roundabout way to make me "chill" or come down a notch or something, which pisses me off even more but is also kind of something I do in a way so I know how to deflect it. Some Si SLIs kind of give me this look like they are waiting for me to come back to earth in this way that seems uncertain or gauging in a way, like they are giving me a certain amount of time to come down and after that they will just walk away (they don't actually walk away most of the time, lol, but that's the sense I get from the look they give me).

I actually learned some awesome poi moves from this one SLI kid. It was odd because we didn't even try to communicate that much through speech, he would just position me and be like "Here....and..yeah...so..." and I'm a fast learner so I was able to pick some stuff up from him, but when we tried to have a conversation it would just always fizzle out or degenerate into scripted bs.

But yeah...I usually just feel kind of uncomfortable around Delta irrationals because I feel like I have to alter myself in order for my presence to not be offensive to them. I have a kind of loud voice and I don't usually actively control the volume unless there is something specific I am trying to convey, and I think that tends to grate on Si valuers a lot. Also I have a natural tendency to posture in some ways and they just don't really play that game most of the time, and when they do its usually in this overly overt way that seems like they want to compare toys whereas I am more geared to establishing implicit self superiority. Sometimes I will jokingly posture with my EIE friends in that more overt manner, but its not the same, its much more exaggerated and sort of like over the top passive aggression, usually to discharge tension when one of us catches the other going into ego mode.

I realize that probably nobody agrees with me on this but I just recently started insisting, again, that a particular person was an EIE (Reuben). And I noticed yesterday that when he left the chatroom, the place just completely died. When he was there, it was filled with random conversations and activity, and when he left, nobody had anything to say.

EIEs really do wake the place up, but at the same time, when they're being themselves, I can't talk directly to them - it's just not normal for me to express affection openly for instance, by calling people affectionate nicknames or whatever. So with me personally, if I'm in a group of people and there's an EIE in the group, it will be a lively group but I have to find other people to talk to.

And yeah, I also feel the 'unbridgeable gap' in communication. I was just talking to an IEI I met yesterday by random accident, and we both liked each other and we both could see that the other was intelligent, but there was no real connection, even though we were saying words to each other.

I would think it's how SLIs don't (or sporadically) respond to emotional cues. I know when I'm interacting with people who also have a grasp on Fe when the emotional energy flows in conversation between everybody. You get a feeling that you have to come in at a certain time, on cue, and it feels natural. With SLIs/ILIs it's like you reach a dead end, a dampening effect. Like Gilly was saying, the "waiting for you to get serious" before taking you serious might be frustrating as well. I work with an SLI, and we were having a discussion on preparing presentations. He refused to believe, and actually got upset, when I told him that I think presentation/delivery is everything, especially when it comes to dry engineering stuff that is boring. To him the content of the message is the most important thing and there's no need to stimulate interest by any other means. I think he automatically assumed that focusing on delivery is a form of deception of the facts.

I'm curious what the Fe egos think of this: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ind-Reading-Fe

In reading this thread, I find myself annoyed by the same characteristics that everyone else is annoyed by which further points to me not being SLI. I dunno, I tend to feel like you're talking to a brick wall when you talk to some of them...there's just nothing there...they give you nothing back. I feel so bad about myself when I interact with people like that. Like omg, laugh or something. Show something. Show that you're alive.

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Originally Posted by jessica129

In reading this thread, I find myself annoyed by the same characteristics that everyone else is annoyed by which further points to me not being SLI. I dunno, I tend to feel like you're talking to a brick wall when you talk to some of them...there's just nothing there...they give you nothing back. I feel so bad about myself when I interact with people like that. Like omg, laugh or something. Show something. Show that you're alive.

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Your posts sound a lot like that of a static type. I find it difficult to believe that you're a dynamic type like SLI.

Yeah i'm not

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Originally Posted by glamourama

SLIs also often adopt this monotone, unexpressive kind of tone when they are speaking that grates on me; i like it when people inject some feeling and passion into their voice when they communicate. SLIs' voices often just sound "dead" to me. (Fe polr stuff of course)

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It's interesting, this caught my attention. Whenever I'm with someone who I really, really trust and feel close to, I will start to express more excitement in my voice, and more emotions in general. But I get overwhelmed by other people's emotions when they're expressing a lot of them, if it's Fe. If it's Fi on the other hand I enjoy empathizing with the other person's feelings.

But anyway I do the monotone thing too, whenever I'm overwhelmed and I've gotten lost in the conversations. I get confused. I'm like, 'wait, why should I care about this? why are we upset about this? why is this good?' And then I have to think for a few seconds to decide whether or not I like/dislike whatever we're talking about. I just simply don't know how I feel, about almost everything, whereas the Fe types know instantly how they feel about things and can just express it right there.

I try to feel it along with them and it feels fake (I know this, by the way, because I just had a conversation with a guy who I typed as IEI while we were talking, a random stranger, the other day), like I'm not expressing my true feelings.

If I had enough time to sit there, for a few seconds, or for a whole minute, or even longer, I could figure out how I *truly* feel about each and every subject we're discussing, and almost always, it's different from whatever the other person feels. A trivial example: I hate football. Someone will be excitedly telling me that some team won the game. I absolutely cannot agree with their excitement or feel it along with them, when I loathe football. And I feel like they want me to be excited about all the same things they are.

So I could say 'I hate football!' after they told me how excited they were about winning the game. But then I'd feel like the 'burden of proof' was on me - that I would have to somehow 'prove' that football REALLY IS 'bad.' And I can't prove it! So we could shout at each other all day long, 'Football is great!' 'Football is bad!' and nobody would win the argument.

I know in reality, Fe types probably just want to hear my own feelings on it, whatever they are, and they don't really expect me to agree with them on every opinion. But it would take me several minutes of meditating to be sure whether or not I *truly* felt some feeling, or was faking it just to agree.

And there are so many complexities to every situation that I always think of. Here's an example. Someone might say 'Abortion is WRONG!' and they could get very angry about abortion, and they're outside carrying signs and walking around in front of an abortion clinic. It's odd, because I myself don't like abortion either, but at the same time, I start thinking to myself, 'What's the most effective way to solve the problem of abortion? This isn't it.' I start to think that expressing a feeling isn't very effective at solving problems, and I start thinking that there are other ways to solve a problem. I almost always feel this way if people are protesting publicly about a social problem - I always think to myself that they don't understand the causes of it, and also, that whatever the politicians do to 'solve' it will actually make it worse. So Te gets in the way of just feeling the feelings.

And I don't mean that to sound superior. I know it can be turned around exactly the opposite way to me too.

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Originally Posted by jessica129

Yeah i'm not

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I'm starting to think you sound like a SLE. But you will probably think that you're not 'outgoing' enough to be an extraverted type, or something.

Nah I've actually always thought SLE was more probable than LSI but at any rate, we know I'm some Beta ST. That's all I know. I'm sorry for going off topic...continue...lol

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Originally Posted by glamourama

with SLIs it's as if the very way we communicate is offensive to each other. for instance, especially one-on-one, they don't take my emotional expression seriously; they are dismissive of it, which can hurt because i'll be trying to share my feelings with them, and their response is to ignore or resist it, and/or say something such as "oh my god chill out" or "you need to calm down" etc.... which will have the opposite effect of what they want ;) i can't stand it when people trivialize my feelings. SLIs also often adopt this monotone, unexpressive kind of tone when they are speaking that grates on me; i like it when people inject some feeling and passion into their voice when they communicate. SLIs' voices often just sound "dead" to me. (Fe polr stuff of course)

another thing is that they don't like the past being brought up. i am Ni ego and to me there is significance in observing the unfolding of various events of the past that can often help to explain problems and misunderstandings of the present, and SLIs just don't care. they will literally say that because it's in the past it is not important, that the present right now is what must be focused on, etc... (Ni devaluing) it is maddening...

also, though i am not as sure of this one, i am beginning to think this this is a common SLI trait: they seem to often have this attitude like "whatever is good enough for me should be good enough for anyone else" - which i find offensive and selfish. for example (and this is such a trivial thing!), my SLI sister did the dishes and in my opinion they weren't as clean as they should be. i put them all back in the sink and brought the issue up to her. she got upset and said "what the hell? i spent time doing that! you're just being OCD! it's not as if you're going to catch malaria" etc. in my view she totally missed the point - of course i was probably not going to get sick, but the idea of eating from those dishes was disgusting all the same. to her it didn't matter, they were clean "enough" and it's as if her effort and the time she spent doing it was more valuable to her than the actual result. (focusing on her "wasted" time and effort is probably her Te)

i have a terrible relationship with my SLI sister. it's to the point where even though we live in the same house, we barely even speak or look at each other. even though it hurts me, i don't really know what to do, because if we try to talk to each other, it is guaranteed we will descend into an argument within minutes. so for now, i just minimize my interaction with her. also, she has a douchebag, sketchy, cowardly, moral hypocrite of a boyfriend who is a probable IEE and i can't stand him lol. (there are better IEEs out there but he is not one of them.)

i'm sure my sister thinks that it's my fault - that if i was not so "dramatic" and "neurotic" that our relationship would be better. at least i have socionics to know that it's not really the fault of either of us.

/rant

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if those two things have anything to do with Fe/Te I'm going to have to follow jessica into some merry quadra for the real this time. how sure are you about them being related to socionics/valued elements?

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Originally Posted by glamourama

for instance, especially one-on-one, they don't take my emotional expression seriously; they are dismissive of it, which can hurt because i'll be trying to share my feelings with them, and their response is to ignore or resist it, and/or say something such as "oh my god chill out" or "you need to calm down" etc.... which will have the opposite effect of what they want i can't stand it when people trivialize my feelings.

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I have written in the Delta and Fe thread which may shed some insight into your problems with your sister. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-Deltas-and-Fe

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Originally Posted by InkStrider repost

Fe feels like the forced expression of emotions at every point, even the minor ones which I feel are unimportant and unworthy of expression. Which is why it feels like an exaggeration to me, making issues bigger than they really are and blowing things out of proportion. When I do express, what I do express are serious and real. When Fe types do it, I cannot trust that what they feel is really as strong as what they purport to feel in their expression. When Fi types express pain, I just know that the pain they feel is real and I take it in seriousness, even if spoken in an undertone because such is rarely expressed. When Fe types do it, I tend to have the nagging feeling that it's just another drama and might dismiss their emotional appeals like how we treat the boy who cried wolf one too many times.

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I have an Fe ego sibling, whom I've had positive relations with, but have noted my own tendency to not take her emotional expression too seriously because I can't tell how seriously she wanted me to take her? Because she's so emotionally expressive on most occasions that I'm rather numbed to her expressions by now that most of it goes beyond my radar (otherwise she'd get me into a start over minor issues/problems which happen to upset her). I'm more sensitive towards the subtle than the obvious in this case. Unless she turns really withdrawn or starts crying (during our growing-up years) which because it so rarely happens, that definitely gets me concerned and puts me on the alert. SLIs, moreso than LSEs (due to their vulnerable Fe) wouldn't be able to take the Fe very well, especially not as it happens, and I can see them telling others to chill. If they do value the relationship, all the more would they attempt to caretake by calming them down, to have them get into a calm enough mental state to sort out the issue (since a calm state of mind is essential for them in the tackling of their own problems.) It can definitely come across as the trivializing of feelings, since SLIs themselves trivialize their own but for the very deepest.

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Originally Posted by glamourama

another thing is that they don't like the past being brought up. i am Ni ego and to me there is significance in observing the unfolding of various events of the past that can often help to explain problems and misunderstandings of the present, and SLIs just don't care. they will literally say that because it's in the past it is not important, that the present right now is what must be focused on, etc... (Ni devaluing) it is maddening...

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I can see myself adopting this same attitude. It's more of a forced optimism. "It's what you do now that matters. Dwelling on past regrets won't change anything. The future is still in your hands, and you can do things now to change it. Don't dwell on mistakes of the past". That sort of thing.

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Originally Posted by glamourama

also, though i am not as sure of this one, i am beginning to think this this is a common SLI trait: they seem to often have this attitude like "whatever is good enough for me should be good enough for anyone else" - which i find offensive and selfish. for example (and this is such a trivial thing!), my SLI sister did the dishes and in my opinion they weren't as clean as they should be. i put them all back in the sink and brought the issue up to her. she got upset and said "what the hell? i spent time doing that! you're just being OCD! it's not as if you're going to catch malaria" etc. in my view she totally missed the point - of course i was probably not going to get sick, but the idea of eating from those dishes was disgusting all the same. to her it didn't matter, they were clean "enough" and it's as if her effort and the time she spent doing it was more valuable to her than the actual result. (focusing on her "wasted" time and effort is probably her Te)

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My interpretation of this is that her expression of annoyance hides a frustration at her own ineptitude/imperfection rather than seriously lashing out at you being OCD? At least that would be what goes on inside my mind. Though I would definitely have been annoyed at 'wasted time and effort' when I thought I'd already accomplished something to my satisfaction only to be told that it wasn't as good as I thought and have to redo the task all over again, especially when I've shifted modes and tapped into the Si relaxation flow.

I guess this is a good example of how conflicting quadra communication modes can mess up relations between people without our meaning it to.

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I guess this is a good example of how conflicting quadra communication modes can mess up relations between people without our meaning it to.

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I agree. It helps some to remember that something perceived as ..say "Ni devaluing" being irksome is the flipside of Si or Ne devaluing. For example, an Si/Ne person might be trying to help...but doing so in the only way they know how. But the helpee is devaluing that help...because it's not the kind they actually want/need. Unfortunately...this kind of reaction on both sides weakens the relationship. Leading two people who cared about each other to eventually separate...each blaming the other.

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Originally Posted by anndelise

I agree. It helps some to remember that something perceived as ..say "Ni devaluing" being irksome is the flipside of Si or Ne devaluing. For example, an Si/Ne person might be trying to help...but doing so in the only way they know how. But the helpee is devaluing that help...because it's not the kind they actually want/need. Unfortunately...this kind of reaction on both sides weakens the relationship. Leading two people who cared about each other to eventually separate...each blaming the other.

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Yes, and it's very sad when that happens. Reminds me of my SLI mom and her IEI sis. Both in their late 40s, no longer talking to one another, yet have secret intention of fixing the relations but to no avail.

This sort of thing really needs to be nipped in the bud, before it sets into the point of no return. It's not easy though.

@ Aiss: yes, i am pretty sure the conflicts i mentioned with my sister have to do with our incompatible types. why?

@ Nico1e and Inkstrider: thanks for the insight!


i don't like how i can't get along with my sister, but i don't see how it can be helped really. the fact of the matter is that we cannot be ourselves without getting into conflict. it's the ugly, unfortunate truth.

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Originally Posted by anndelise

I agree. It helps some to remember that something perceived as ..say "Ni devaluing" being irksome is the flipside of Si or Ne devaluing. For example, an Si/Ne person might be trying to help...but doing so in the only way they know how. But the helpee is devaluing that help...because it's not the kind they actually want/need. Unfortunately...this kind of reaction on both sides weakens the relationship. Leading two people who cared about each other to eventually separate...each blaming the other.

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Agatha Fry, she made a pie
And Christopher John helped bake it
Christopher John, he mowed the lawn
And Agatha Fry helped rake it

/ G - / - D7 / - - / - G /

Now, Zachary Zugg took out the rug
And Jennifer Joy helped shake it
Then Jennifer Joy, she made a toy
And Zachary Zugg helped break it

And some kind of help is the kind of help
That helping's all about
And some kind of help is the kind of help
We all can do without

/ CG CG / G7 C / - GEm / AmD G /

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6r0MVQANjI

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Originally Posted by glamourama

the fact of the matter is that we cannot be ourselves without getting into conflict. it's the ugly, unfortunate truth.

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I've felt like that around certain people... usually Fe-EJs. My relationships with IEIs are less prone to conflict once an actual relationship is established. (They feed me Fi, I give them Ti, etc. A bond may be harder to form but it's also harder to break than with EIEs.) Otherwise I just stay away. Anyways... have you tried not talking to i.e. distancing yourself from your sister? That's what I do to avoid or minimize conflict with such people I live with or have to see on a regular basis. I'm not saying you should stop caring, just try to keep a distance and interact only when absolutely necessary. And make an agreement as to what things you will talk to each other about (/interact) and what things you won't, and try to stick to it.

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Originally Posted by k0rpsey

Agatha Fry, she made a pie
And Christopher John helped bake it
Christopher John, he mowed the lawn
And Agatha Fry helped rake it

/ G - / - D7 / - - / - G /

Now, Zachary Zugg took out the rug
And Jennifer Joy helped shake it
Then Jennifer Joy, she made a toy
And Zachary Zugg helped break it

And some kind of help is the kind of help
That helping's all about
And some kind of help is the kind of help
We all can do without

/ CG CG / G7 C / - GEm / AmD G /

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I didn't know there was a video attached, and can't get to it by clicking/pasting link.

Do you have a song for 'damned if you...damned if you don't'?
Because often too, if a person claims to care, but doesn't offer to help...in any small way at all...then they get accused of not really caring. And if they do try to help...they can still be accused of not caring, because it was the wrong kind of help.

Gah, relationships suck! It's a wonder humankind made it this far, lol.

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Originally Posted by Jessica

Nah I've actually always thought SLE was more probable than LSI but at any rate, we know I'm some Beta ST. That's all I know. I'm sorry for going off topic...continue...lol

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Jessica do you feel in any way, energized by me?

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Originally Posted by N1cole

I realize that probably nobody agrees with me on this but I just recently started insisting, again, that a particular person was an EIE (Reuben). And I noticed yesterday that when he left the chatroom, the place just completely died. When he was there, it was filled with random conversations and activity, and when he left, nobody
had anything to say.

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A strong argument N1cole, but this is true of SEE's as well. For the record, I conversed with IcEPicK before, and SLI from half a decade back. He told me that I was too obsessed with Se and power, and typed me as SLE. Later on, he told me that I loved drama too much, and was EIE.

I've also spoken to Live&Letlive before. She said she loved my Ni-Te humour. And other stuff as well.

Then with Rick, he said my piano had a lot of Si. Hkkmr heard my music and made a similar comment.

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Originally Posted by delise

MCV: Mind Reading Fe


by
anndelise


Fe - What is this TPE doing? What's happening?

Info is gathered from Direct Experience of the Actions.
Info gathered is hinted at, suggested, understood indirectly.

(Ethics - the actions have an emotional and cognitive impact on our psyche...such as mirror neurons)

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It's easy to imagine that neural clusters are activated in the brain each time you move. But many people aren't aware that when you observe someone else moving, many of those same neural clusters will activate.

By this natural process of activation, we each unconsciously mimic the actions of others. It helps us share in the experiences of others, and to know what they are feeling, without having to think/talk about it.

Mirror neurons primarily exist in the areas of the brain concerned with movement, sensations, emotions, and intentions.

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Movement
A demonstration was done in which tennis players watching a video of a moving ball activated the areas of the brain that track visual objects. But when they watched a video of someone serving the ball, the above visual tracking areas activated, AND other areas of the brain that showed that the viewer's brain was "acting out" the moves seen in the video. It's believed that by the brain doing so, it helps the viewer/brain predict where the ball will go.
Hogwash, you say. The brain's not imagining that it's doing the actions.
Actually, it is.

When we watch a TPE action, the mirror neurons are activated.
And when we actually act on the TPE, causing the same action, those same neurons activate, PLUS a few mor areas related to intent (and actual muscle initiation, etc).
So we have [action clusters] +/- [intent clusters] being activated. Depending on if we are doing it...or merely watching it.

But wait...it gets better!

When we see another person expressing an emotion, the areas of the brain associated with feeling that emotion becomes activated. That emotion you saw has triggered the same emotion in yourself! You feel what you saw felt.

And wait...there's still more!!

Our brains also mirror intentions.

Two movements may be identical, but may signal very different things, in different contexts.
If you see a person picking up a cup to drink from, your brain will activated a different set of neurons than if that person was picking up a cup to clear the table.

Add them up together and you get
[action clusters] + [emotion clusters] + [intention clusters]

But remember, it's not just watching it happening...like an outside observer...
you literally feel it happening.
You feel what it's like to do the action;
You feel the emotions you saw felt; and
You feel the intention as well.

This allows us to get a glimpse of someone else's plans and thought processes w/o consciously having to work it out.

You really ARE a mindreader!!!

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Or ARE you?

* You felt what it was like to do the action...
* You felt the emotions you saw...
* And you even felt the intentions you observed...

So you know it all...you know everything that was going on in that person's mind, right?

No. You don't.


When you see someone doing something,
your brain activates what it would be like if YOU were doing it
When you see someone expressing an emotion,
your brain activates what it would be like if YOU expressed that way
When you see someone acting with an intent,
your brain activates what it would be like if YOU had that intent
What you're feeling is YOUR actions, YOUR emotions, w/ YOUR intent.
Not theirs.
And, in order to mirror another's actions, the action must "resonate" with a motor program that your brain has already learned.

If you've never played tennis, your brain won't activate the same neuron clusters of action, nor intent, that an actual tennis player's would.

If you've never experienced/learned a particular emotion, you're brain won't activate the same neurons as the actual emotion would.

And if you've never done something with the other person's actual intent, you're brain won't activate THEIR intent...it will active YOUR intent in that same context.

Mirror Neurons...Projection at its finest?

WARNING!!
If you dare mention to an Fe ego that they are projecting the intentions, or that the intention they gave for your actions is wrong, expect there to be hell to pay. Because they KNOW! They can read your body language! They can read your ind! and yes!!! They obviously know you better than you know yourself!!
Sound familiar?

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Woah there, Nellie.
Lest you think I'm demonizing Fe, let's think about the implications of your actions...and the Fe's mirror neurons.

You're sad and depressed, your body language expresses this without you even realizing it...
and now you've made the Fe feel sad and depressed.
You get angry, kick some dirt around, punch a wall, threaten to harm someone..
you've just induced similar rage and intent into the Fe.
You throw up your hands and say "Fuck It! I Quit!"...
you've triggered similar into Fe.
Do you have any idea how rude you are being?
How rude it is to shove your emotions down someone's throat even when you think you're not expressing any emotion?

No wonder Fe thinks you're an ass....
cuz you ARE an ass for doing that...
and worse...denying that you're doing it. wtf? You F***n Liar!


So why the hell would Fe want to spend time with you?

Well, if you have similar views on TPE,
have experienced TPE together,
have similar intentions, hopes, and dreams,
or at least willing to let the Fe type join you in your actions/experiences...
then they'll more easily 'comprehend' the signals you're sending out.
And since it's shared or similar, you won't be denying what they feel...
nor denying what they know about you.


Team work...everyone with the same intent, the same goal. How heavenly would that be for Fe types?

Coming from the same Tribe, with the same cultural upbringing, the same symbolism, the same mannerisms. How soothing that must be. To finally be able to trust the people around you, to know and understand the people around you, and to be safely away from those idiots who constantly deny their feelings, their thoughts, and their intentions.

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Fe is often linked with emotions, emotional expression, imitation/mimicry, and acting.
Fe types are often accused of trying to manipulate the emotional atmospheres, and of trying to evoke emotional reactions in others.

Your exuberance and arousability infects them...
Maybe they're trying to help you feel the same exuberance and joy they're feeling.
There are so many ways Fe can express itself....and thus infect Fe emotions into others.
Song, Dance, Poetry, expressive gestures, maybe even a hearty pat on the shoulder and a big smile
Smile!..and you'll begin to actually feel happy.
"If you chance to meet a frown,
Do not let it stay...
Quickly turn it upside down
And smile that frown away."
If you think that was annoying..spend some time with two or more Fe emo types.
They'll show you just how emo emo can be.

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And finally,

Fe is quick to pick up on nuances in phrasing, tone, and unconscious gestures.
You're an open book to Fe...
as long as you two 'speak' the same 'language'.
(However, Fe types may not always be aware of nor remember the implications of that last part.)

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I actually identify a lot with this delise, but I'm not entirely sure if this implies that I am Fe-ego.

@ Gilly

My dad is SLI. He once told me that I was being very harsh with him, although he clearly agreed with what I was saying with him. I told him that without pain, some people wouldn't change. Whenever I was angry when young, he never let me express it. He always told me to control my emotions. It felt very unnatural to me. All I wanted was to throw a stone into the ocean. Perhaps he didn't get what I mean and thought I wanted to punch my face against the wall.

Right now, some people IRL would type me as SLI. Am I, perhaps, simply channeling his mental and emotional processes, or am I just a different kind of SLI?

When I was young, I realized that I was very aware of my 'mask', or rather, my facial expressions. Is that Fe? Furthermore, with my dad in the driver's seat and me at the back, I always felt as if he was watching my every movement, and that I could not smile at all because there was nothing that could escape his vision or knowledge. This impression may not have been entirely correct or objective, but it sure felt like it back then. My dad is very different now, but then he is also 15 years older, and less stressed by his business after making some fundamental policy changes.

@Glammy

My mum and I are generally pissed at my dad whenever he tells us to 'Stop arguing' when in fact we were just merely having a heated and emotional discussion. Both of us had a strong stake in what's going on, and after each discussion, while it may not end well, we will always reconcile and move 1 step ahead. My dad is always of the opinion that he should let her calm down. My mum told me that after she's 'calmed down', he wouldn't even remember to go back and talk to her about the issue. I suppose they have radically different conversation styles, either that or my dad is a pussy when it comes to handling women's emotions and issues.

My mum told me that dad is not romantic anymore. My dad says that it's only for young lovers and that there are other ways of expressing love. Fuck. Also, his Fe is fucked up. He tells jokes at the wrong moment, and conveys it in a manner that he thinks is funny, but isn't. (@ Aiss, I suppose that's where I picked it up from. Bitch.)

Does this resonate with you in any way, Glammy? Because I might be wrong, he could be SEI.

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Originally Posted by Reuben

Jessica do you feel in any way, energized by me?

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No? No offense but Deltas bore me to death, annoy me and make me want to punch things. Like a lot.

You were one of us once.

lol, i'm just here to say hi to Cyrano!

HEY old-timer! Haven't seen you here in a while. Welcome home.

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Originally Posted by Cyrano

You were one of us once.

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times are a-changin' :D

Even when I Was in delta, they still annoyed me and I still felt the same way.

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No? No offense but Deltas bore me to death, annoy me and make me want to punch things. Like a lot.

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See guys, I'm a fucking delta. The woman says it herself.

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punch things

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Here. Punch my tummy.

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No? No offense but Deltas bore me to death, annoy me and make me want to punch things. Like a lot.

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See guys, I'm a fucking delta. The woman says it herself.

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punch things

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Here. Punch my tummy.

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Originally Posted by jessica129

In reading this thread, I find myself annoyed by the same characteristics that everyone else is annoyed by which further points to me not being SLI. I dunno, I tend to feel like you're talking to a brick wall when you talk to some of them...there's just nothing there...they give you nothing back. I feel so bad about myself when I interact with people like that. Like omg, laugh or something. Show something. Show that you're alive.

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Totally hear you - I think it's all about emotional intelligence. Some SLIs are robots, some ESEs are laughing with EVERY word they say, and expect you to. Others, of each type, are more savvy. A little of each information element at the appropriate time is best.

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Originally Posted by meals

I think it's all about emotional intelligence. Some SLIs are robots, some ESEs are laughing with EVERY word they say, and expect you to. Others, of each type, are more savvy. A little of each information element at the appropriate time is best.

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I think u are spot on about this.

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Originally Posted by Jadae

Specificity, especially regarding humor. Also, just the uneasy feeling. I feel as if every movement has been recorded, calculated, and judged. It's the creative Te, obviously. Yet, when coupled with dominant Si, the progression in which things are done matter a lot for whatever reason. I cannot replicate myself that way, and I find it very difficult to try and relate. Yet, I want to, which makes me just feel ... =/ (unless theyre an ass, then I dont care).

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Your three leaf clover appears to have six leaves.

Glam,

I'm so sorry. I absolutely see your point of view. I guess we, as SLI, are about calming the situation, which you see as dismissive. My first thought was to try to explain your sister's reaction as a "sisters thing," but, there I go, classifying and minimizing your genuine emotions, which is just not helpful.

Best I can do is to express to you that SLIs ARE sensitive to your feelings, just not good at processing them in the moment. I can't tell you how often I have needed time to step back and think about a disagreement before I come around. Not that I would admit changing, or even worse, being changed. So...know that the SLI may not see your point of view at first, but will always have your back...kinda like sisters.

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Originally Posted by Cyrano

Your three leaf clover appears to have six leaves.

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It would technically be one leaf that is comprised of 3 bi-colored leaflets and 1 bi-colored leaf stem :P

Never observed this conflictor relationship and am curious about how it plays out in detail. I think that in theory it would be kind of humorous to watch because of level of attention/value/need/adeptness of Fe. Any insights?

I'm also interested in hearing about this. Would there be a tendency to ignore one another or to be initially attracted only to become volatile and destructive as time passed?