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Ezra
03-11-2009, 12:40 PM
I'm bringing this up again, to a new range of people.

First theMime., then bee, now Kamajama.

I simply cannot see how a Four can be an SEI. And yet all of these people are adamant that they are Fours.

Khola
03-11-2009, 12:41 PM
Everyone told me that, I don't really care. I am Bee. Should I care enough to prove it?

07490
03-11-2009, 01:40 PM
I have to agree with EZRA on this one. what stands about 4 is clearly an INtutitive type, and not an Sensory type. Even an ENXj has better chance of being 4 than SEI. All the problems assoicate with an 4 is their prone to fantasy part. How can an Dominant Sensor be like that? Also, their healthy level, their healthy cycle as well as problem are all assoicated with over indulgent of fantasy. I think MIME defend her E-types well about her being E-4. I dont know if BEE cares enough to know herself. and clearly KamaJama shows interest in him being a 4, but its confused with otehr types. Going back to MIME's type for a second, Maybe she is a E-type with an instinct combination that seem somewhat like a E-4? I can't say better than her as a thread about her E-type in socionix is very in depth explained by her.

BandD
03-11-2009, 05:45 PM
Are you trolling Ezra?

A SEI is the stereotypical emo tortured artist type in socionics (some say that belongs to iei but poopie on those people), a 4 is the stereotyped emo tortured artist type in enneagram.

Now I don't mind stereotypical emo tortured artists. Some people can't stand them. I have no problem with them whatsoever as I enjoy how honest they are about their weaknesses. However they can remind people of weaknesses in themselves, something that types like 3s can't stand. (well only ones that aren't truly liberated which is most of them)

BandD
03-11-2009, 05:50 PM
I have to agree with EZRA on this one. what stands about 4 is clearly an INtutitive type, and not an Sensory type.

Nonsense. You have no idea what you're talking about. You are deluding this whole thing into fucking astrology. It's not much better than astrology granted, but it tries to be a lot more verifiable and testable than that.

(You're a cool guy numbers. And I hate to 'pull an Expat' on you here, but seriously- you're making no sense.)

A 4 is generally known as individualist (self-renewal, human-inspiring). They're not clearly an intuitive type, and they're only very 'clear' on certain complex detailed psychological processes that are usually explained quite poorly and crudely.


All the problems assoicate with an 4 is their prone to fantasy part. How can an Dominant Sensor be like that?

My ESFj mom is about as sensing as you can get yet fantasies way too much, and her behaviors and lifestyle show it. She's so hands on and showy yet insists on living this overly idealistic, tv show kind of life that's very stepford wives-ish. You can be very intuitive and still be logical, realistic and rational. It's not like all intuitors intuit off into some mystical blah-blah place.

Also a fantasy isn't necessarily a problem, you have to take into account what a culture or society values. In typical American society, then yes fantasy is frowned upon however obviously not in all areas or all countries.


I think MIME defend her E-types well about her being E-4. I dont know if BEE cares enough to know herself. and clearly KamaJama shows interest in him being a 4, but its confused with otehr types. Going back to MIME's type for a second, Maybe she is a E-type with an instinct combination that seem somewhat like a E-4? I can't say better than her as a thread about her E-type in socionix is very in depth explained by her.

Please. Get a life.

Khola
03-12-2009, 01:13 AM
Ok people, looks like you better get out your drinking cups because I'm about to proclaim IEI again (but not really...)

Personally I think Fe subtype SEI can easily be 4w3. They tend more toward beta-isms anyway.

Mediator Kam
03-12-2009, 02:06 AM
but truly, what are these beta-isms you speak of?

I shouldn't need to go into such detail, but I will.

When I was idk, in second grade, people stopped liking me. I was forced to think of myself as unique, simply because no one seemed to be like me, and it was like they didn't want to be like me, or something to that effect.

When I got into the puberty, I started liking girls, and the girls that I always fantasized about were the gothic, emo girls, which is a little strange for a socially retarded 13 year old. I didn't really want to be with them, rather I wanted to be like them, good-looking, and unique. You could say that emo kids aren't unique but rather they are conformist, but they look different and act different, you know? Which kinda explains my fascination with emo girls.

So that was my underlying theme, I was unique, and inside I was dying because I was kinda like everyone else in middle school. So when I went to high school, I attempted to be unique. I just seemed to be, so I just went with it. As of now, the idea of being just being like everyone else nearly makes me physically sick.

Idk, I'm not a 2 or 9 guys, and 4 makes a lot of sense to me.

ArchonAlarion
03-12-2009, 02:11 AM
yeah SEI's can definitely be 4's

Fe ISFp - 4w3, 3w4
Si ISFp - 4w5, 5w4

Plus enneagram is only loosely correlated to socionics, so stfu.

Park
03-12-2009, 04:14 AM
yeah SEI's can definitely be 4's

How about SLIs?

Brilliand
03-12-2009, 04:38 AM
How about SLIs?

Hmm... different, but not socially so; perhaps different in work practices?

I think the SEI 4 might be related to :Ne: DS, but there may be a difference between the SEI's +Ne and the SLI's -Ne... as in the SLI wouldn't be insecure about being different, but just know himself to be different (and be insecure instead about what that entails).

All guesswork, of course; does any of that resonate with you?

07490
03-12-2009, 05:28 AM
BulletsAndDoves, I am sorry. I must apologize to you for making bullshit claim in enneagram. Yea I dont know enough, or at least my opinion on this matter is different from you. So becuase I make a bullshit claim, I must now "get a life".

Park
03-12-2009, 06:38 AM
All guesswork, of course; does any of that resonate with you?

Yes, well, that last sentence does. But could you expand?

BandD
03-12-2009, 10:30 AM
So becuase I make a bullshit claim, I must now "get a life".

I hate to be rude. But it's like it's for your own good sometimes man. Seriously, life ain't all that complicated. Just arggggh. Y'all need to be shaken up a bit and stop analyzing shit that don't matter. It will just drive you insane.

07490
03-12-2009, 10:32 AM
I hate to be rude. But it's like it's for your own good sometimes man. Seriously, life ain't all that complicated. Just arggggh. Y'all need to be shaken up a bit and stop analyzing shit that don't matter. It will just drive you insane.

The thing is... you don't know me How can you even know how I live? stop thinking that i spend time on this forum and thefore I dont have a life, You asumme way too much and that is your problem. I am not like you.

07490
03-12-2009, 10:34 AM
And please stop commenting on my comment, I am not interested in your comment.

07490
03-12-2009, 10:42 AM
I hate to be rude. But it's like it's for your own good sometimes man. Seriously, life ain't all that complicated. Just arggggh. Y'all need to be shaken up a bit and stop analyzing shit that don't matter. It will just drive you insane.

LOL you are so pathetic, you are almost a fool to me, I read it the second time around and it is obivous that you anlayze things way too much you think your problem is also other people's problem. I think you need to clear your head, becuase mine is pretty empty.

machintruc
03-12-2009, 01:31 PM
I'm bringing this up again, to a new range of people.

First theMime., then bee, now Kamajama.

I simply cannot see how a Four can be an SEI. And yet all of these people are adamant that they are Fours.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/07/07/kelly_narrowweb__300x482,0.jpg

ArchonAlarion
03-12-2009, 01:37 PM
Bjork: Si ISFp 5w4 sp/sx

http://bjorkfans.com/files/2008/11/bjork-pho.jpg
http://www.robotanist.org/HT/pix/Bjork-elegant.jpg
http://www.betz.lu/media/users/charel/bjork1.jpg

strrrng
03-12-2009, 08:50 PM
You can be very intuitive and still be logical, realistic and rational. It's not like all intuitors intuit off into some mystical blah-blah place.

Thank you. "N" types are not more abstract, and "S" types are not more pragmatic; "T" types are not more logical, and "F" types are not more emotional -- for the last fucking time :D Plus, e-type is so much more deep-rooted and encompassing than any set of behavioral dichotomies or reductionistic traits assigned to cognitive tendencies, that correlations between socionics traits and enneagram traits are pointless. INFps are not 4s because they are dreamy romantics absorbed in their emotions; 4s are 4s because of a fixation on cultivating emotions and establishing an internal identity; INFps are INFps because their cognitions are wired to process information in a way that corresponds to a pattern labelled as "INFp" in a system. Sure, there are general frequency distributions between e-types and sociotypes, but anyone who claims to know or have proof of some direct neurological or psychological correlation between the two systems, is foolish.

Oh, and ISFps can easily be 4s. Expel your bullshit stereotypes, people.


yeah SEI's can definitely be 4's

Fe ISFp - 4w3, 3w4
Si ISFp - 4w5, 5w4

Plus enneagram is only loosely correlated to socionics, so stfu.

Yeah. I think 9w1 is a lot more likely than 5w4 for an Si-ISFp, and a fair amount of Fe-ISFps are 3w2s.

ArchonAlarion
03-13-2009, 12:21 AM
Yeah. I think 9w1 is a lot more likely than 5w4 for an Si-ISFp, and a fair amount of Fe-ISFps are 3w2s.

Yeah, I thought about other likely e-types afterwords, but those were just on my mind.

JRiddy
03-13-2009, 01:39 AM
My experience with ISFPs has led me to believe the majority of them are 4s, especially of the Fe subtype. Although Si could be said to make ISFps a lot more "grounded" than the most blatantly four-leaning sociotype (INFp), that in no way makes them incapable of being 4s. Most of the arguments for ISFps being unable to be 4s are based on some supposed theoretical disconnect between an Si types's "pragmatism" with the "individualistic" nature of a 4. If you have ever met any ISFps, you'd probably realize that a lot of them are not into "pragmatism" all that much, and generally are much more concerned with things like beauty, love, dancing around their bedrooms, taking care of friends, etc. A lot of ISFps come across as very blatantly "emotional" people, and are frequently very sensitive and empathetic. This level of sensitivity, combined with a generally introverted attitude is a pretty good recipe for a 4. There is nothing inherently "intuitive" about being a 4.

Breakdown of ISFp Enneatypes (from my experience):
Fe-ISFp: 4w3 - 70%, 3 (of either wing) - 15%, 6w7 - 10%, 9w1 (maybe) - 5%
Si-ISFp: 9w1 - 65%, 4w5 - 30%, 5w4 (maybe) - 5%



Celebrity examples of ISFps with Enneatypes:

Fe:
4w3 - Kirsten Dunst, Paul McCartney, Regina Spektor, Monica Belluci
3w4 - Celine Dion, Hillary Duff
6w7 - Adam Sandler? (might be 4)

Si:
9w1 - Anne Hathaway, Alyson Hannigan, Adrian Grenier, 50 Cent, Kenny G
4w5 - Bjork, Beck, Amy Lee, Eliza Dushku, Andy Warhol
5w4 - Tilda Swinton?

Mediator Kam
03-13-2009, 01:42 AM
amazingly detailed discourse brother.

ArchonAlarion
03-13-2009, 01:54 AM
yeah thats a good analysis Riddy.

I just hate how people try to de-abstractize Si, when Si combined with Fe is pretty damn abstract. ISFp's aren't just about baking cookies and being mom's ;)

JRiddy
03-13-2009, 01:58 AM
yeah thats a good analysis Riddy.

I just hate how people try to de-abstractize Si, when Si combined with Fe is pretty damn abstract. ISFp's aren't just about baking cookies and being mom's ;)

Agreed. Some ISFps are men, making it difficult for them to successfully be moms.

ArchonAlarion
03-13-2009, 02:00 AM
I think imogen heap is a 4w5 or 5w4 sx/so Si ISFp


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKZsZkH_MJc&feature=related


Btw Kam is a guy and my mom... so fuck you riddy :D

JRiddy
03-13-2009, 02:07 AM
I think imogen heap is a 4w5 or 5w4 sx/so Si ISFp


Looks 4w5. 5s are a lot more emotionally reserved, which is kinda weird for an ISFp, but I don't think it's impossible. Heap looks more or less withdrawn, but she still has a 4's emotional energy, IMO.

Mediator Kam
03-13-2009, 02:09 AM
Agreed. Some ISFps are men, making it difficult for them to successfully be moms.

:mad::mad::mad::mad:

I am the mom of alarion, and don't you forget it! :frustrated:

Khola
03-13-2009, 02:27 AM
If you have ever met any ISFps, you'd probably realize that a lot of them are not into "pragmatism" all that much, and generally are much more concerned with things like beauty, love, dancing around their bedrooms, taking care of friends, etc.

Celebrity examples of ISFps with Enneatypes:

Fe:
4w3 - Kirsten Dunst, Paul McCartney, Regina Spektor, Monica Belluci


Lol, just check the sig, I swear it was like that before I even read this..........and yeah the rest fits too. I don't mind being in a dogpile with Monica Belluci and Kirsten Dunst either, suits me just fine! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/tongue/tongue0022.gif

strrrng
03-13-2009, 05:26 AM
thank you Xerxes, for posting the only (possibly) useful information in this thread!

And thank you for pointless passive-aggressiveness. What have you added? And since when are you the arbiter of quality information? *scoffs*

Park
03-13-2009, 05:45 AM
All right, now let's talk about SLI 4s.

Brilliand
03-13-2009, 08:35 AM
Yes, well, that last sentence does. But could you expand?


as in the SLI wouldn't be insecure about being different, but just know himself to be different (and be insecure instead about what that entails).

A Delta's abstract Ne would be more final than an Alpha's... in the sense of its decisions not being disturbed by anything else. If anything, it would disturb :Fi:. So I suppose your being different might create insecurities in your understanding of people/relationships (as opposed to Alpha's insecurity about the difference itself as it relates to social life).

Park
03-13-2009, 11:22 AM
Thanks Brilliand.

I'm assuming you're not denying the possibility of an SLI being a 4, like many others would.


If anything, it would disturb :Fi:.
What would disturb :Fi:? Or did you mean to say that it ("Delta's abstract Ne") could be disturbed by :Fi:?


So I suppose your being different might create insecurities in your understanding of people/relationships (as opposed to Alpha's insecurity about the difference itself as it relates to social life).

What I get from this is that a Delta (an SLI) wouldn't care about not fitting social norms (which would be an Fe/Ti concern?) and therefore will not regard their difference as a problem or something that needs to be fixed or feel bad about it, but instead, the SLI 4 will focus on getting people to see & accept them for who & what they are and can become insecure about their ability to maintain stable interpersonal contact and about their difference affecting this ability negatively. <-- Fi HA insecurities?

Ezra
03-13-2009, 11:50 AM
Sorry, guys, I've lost interest in this thread almost as soon as a I started it.

I will say one thing though. I think SEIs will often try to make themselves stand out, but in a very different way to the Four. A Four will try, and will succeed. An SEI will try, and anyone with at least some common sense will catch on to exactly what they're doing.


*scoffs*

lol

ArchonAlarion
03-13-2009, 12:20 PM
I don't think that's true either way. INFP's are not some 4 Gods who are masters at hiding their 4 fixation (if they are 4's). I find them to be just as (or not as) obvious as ISFp's.

And fuck that shit about standing out. I try and make myself standout and I usually succeed.

The point of the four fixation is that they've lost their identity and are trying to create one. So 4's can come across as "unique," but its more like that on the inside they are actually unique, but on the outside they are often fashionable conformists. Meaning that 4's try to hard and it ends up having the reverse affect. At least that can happen and I've seen it.

Now why can ISFp's (especially Fe subs) be 4's? Its pretty fucking simple

Ni/Fe - Internal dynamics of fields/Internal dynamics of objects
Si/Fe - External dynamics of fields/Internal dynamics of objects

So basically you are attributing being a 4 to Ni/Se. Well thats BS. I think being a 4 is more related to Fe and IP temerament if anything.

Cyclops
03-13-2009, 12:25 PM
Except an actual ISFp is a 9.

ArchonAlarion
03-13-2009, 12:27 PM
That is ridiculously unhelpful and also instigative

=)

Cyclops
03-13-2009, 12:41 PM
That is ridiculously unhelpful and also instigative

=)
Hmm, well it seems that we're all going to end up agreeing to disagree, so I did mean it but at the same time I did think it was rather humourous given the "intense" discussions taking place.

Here's what I think: to be a 9 and to compare it to socionics; one needs to have an IP temperament and also be an F type (of course with IP temperament it will be an Fe type).

You don't necessarily have to have an IP temperament to be a 4, but the description does contain a lot of socionics intuitive correlations, and it's largely like an introvert.

I don't think an ISFp trying to find themselves is the same as an INFp trying to find themselves (or necessarily an intuitive type also) they usually know what they want and who they are but are unhappy perhaps that they don't have it (a partner they can limpit on to for instance).

So with a 9 being an IP temperament, an ethical description, ISFp's have got to be 9's. 4's have a lot of intuitive in their description, and ethical description and socionic introvert description so they are typically INFp's (but can sometimes be INFj's) INFp's with strong Fe subtype can also be 9's cause there's nothing really to contradict that, as opposed to ISFp's being 4's.

So there it is, i'm using what is basically classical socionics and real life observations to draw correlations. That you seem to say a lot that dichotomies don't exist, that ethical types are logical types or something (although when you say that I think you digress from socionics descriptions of these things) then I don't really see how anyone can reach a consensus. It's kinda like building the tower of Babel (babble) where everyone doesn't seem to be reading from the same hymn sheet in the same language to accomplish the same thing with no apparently useful translators, yar?

So I can equally say you're unhelpful ;)

ArchonAlarion
03-13-2009, 12:55 PM
well what about the 9w1 INTj's and INFj's?

Once again this is an example of "ethical" and "intuitve", as Strrrng explained above, rearing their ugly heads and creating misconceptions. ISFp's are actually intuitive and abstract.

There is no direct correlation between enneagram and socionics because they are based on different parts of the psyche. Socionics is about passive input filters and the enneagram is about psychological fixations usually due to early childhood trauma.

Basically, this whole ISFp's can't be 4's is anti-Si bias.

Cyclops
03-13-2009, 01:15 PM
well what about the 9w1 INTj's and INFj's?They don't exist. Ti doesn't fit in with a 9 description and Fi is too principled to be a 9.


Once again this is an example of "ethical" and "intuitve", as Strrrng explained above, rearing their ugly heads and creating misconceptions. ISFp's are actually intuitive and abstract.I never read strrrng's post, he says much the same as you from past experience. If it was shorter I might have, but it's too long to read the same sort of thing for the X'th time. And nothing I have seen in theory or applying socionics irl disproves for me the socionic concept of logical and ethical. Dichotomies exist as two halves of a whole. That you can't acknowledge that, yet at the same time say that Si/Ne for instance are two halves of the same thing (or as I understand it, perhaps more appropriately you compare Si/Ni) is a result of paradoxical logic, to me it's Ti producing an outcome which is self contained and closed to Te. It just doesn't stack up with real life in my experience, nor does it stack up with socionics father Jung. Tower..of..Babel (again).

Why not acknowledge Xi-Xe as a dichotomy also?


There is no direct correlation between enneagram and socionics because they are based on different parts of the psyche. Socionics is about passive input filters and the enneagram is about psychological fixations usually due to early childhood trauma.Well who's making claims now? Are you going to criticise yourself for being unhelpful like you did me?..


Basically, this whole ISFp's can't be 4's is anti-Si bias.This lives in your own head. Anti-Si bias is the most stupid thing i've heard, and that you are saying it to me, an Si dominant, is preposterous.

ArchonAlarion
03-13-2009, 03:25 PM
I doubt you'll agree with this, but delta Si comes after Te in the quadra element cycle, whereas alpha Si is generated from Fe. So there are some differences between the quadras expression of shared elements.

Si is not just about comfort, relaxation, and health. Si is basically the physical/material version of Ni and shares its grand scope and abstractness.

So when you or others deny that Si is something other than silly, "lets work out and bake cookies" bullshit it pisses me off.

Frankly there is false stereotyping of every element, Si just being the one discussed here.

Cyclops
03-13-2009, 03:44 PM
I doubt you'll agree with this, but delta Si comes after Te in the quadra element cycle, whereas alpha Si is generated from Fe. So there are some differences between the quadras expression of shared elements.

Si is not just about comfort, relaxation, and health. Si is basically the physical/material version of Ni and shares its grand scope and abstractness.

So when you or others deny that Si is something other than silly, "lets work out and bake cookies" bullshit it pisses me off.

Frankly there is false stereotyping of every element, Si just being the one discussed here.
I don't disagree with what you're saying about Si (not commenting on the quadra cycle you mention. I think there are differences in how it's expressed in quadras, but I don't necessarily have-or am giving an opinion on the quadra cycle you mention).

I don't think it's about comfort and cookies at all, but.. I do think "comfort" is a by-product of Si.

I don't remember saying I subscribe to what you say about Si in the above, so I don't know why your comment was directed at me. (I presume it was and you weren't just posting randomly and not acknowledging my post(s))?

I'm interested why you don't see Xi-Xe as a valid dichotomy, but as I understand it, you see Xi-Xi as a valid dichotomy. Am I correct in saying this is what you think? If so, why? (for clarification, the X's could be; first one Ti-Te and second one Si-Ni).

strrrng
03-13-2009, 03:44 PM
lol, I've never claimed to be an "arbiter of quality information", especially about Enneagram. "ISFps can be 4s because I say so" hardly counts as useful information to me, especially when I don't even agree with a large amount of the ISFp typings in this thread.

I don't care what you claimed -- it's about what you said without saying it. Don't blame me for pointing out what you missed in your own words. And nice straw-man there -- no one simply said "ISFps can't be 4s because I say so," which you would know if you actually read and comprehended what they said. Funny how you haven't justified at all why they can't be 4s at all, yet still stand behind the claim with such grand confidence.

Like I said lol, passive-aggressive, self-appointed arbitration. Do I need to spell everything out for people around here?


All right, now let's talk about SLI 4s.

Hah :)


Sorry, guys, I've lost interest in this thread almost as soon as a I started it.

I will say one thing though. I think SEIs will often try to make themselves stand out, but in a very different way to the Four. A Four will try, and will succeed. An SEI will try, and anyone with at least some common sense will catch on to exactly what they're doing.



lol

I don't think 4s try to make themselves unique, necessarily. More often than not, the feeling of "uniqueness" -- which is really just a corollary of the intrinsic feeling of estrangement from others -- is implicit and remains internal for the most part. If they happen to express said quality, it's usually done for themselves, not others. Granted, this is affected by instinct stacking and wing, but the basic idea remains.

Subteigh
03-13-2009, 03:52 PM
:Si:-dominants are supposed to be more in touch with their bodily senses than all the other types, while type 4s are one of the enneagrams types described as being most detached from their bodies. If it is possible for an ISFp to be a type 4, then I doubt it is common.

But 9s are part of the Withdrawn triad (which strrrng posted a link to at least once)...I think it's easier to accept an identity-seeking ISFp as a 9 who feels a sense of detachment from other people.

Brilliand
03-13-2009, 05:56 PM
I'm assuming you're not denying the possibility of an SLI being a 4, like many others would.

I don't think I know enough about the Enneagram to make such a claim.


What would disturb :Fi:? Or did you mean to say that it ("Delta's abstract Ne") could be disturbed by :Fi:?

In Alpha, Ne cycles into Fe. In Delta, Fi cycles into Ne. So Alpha Ne is to Alpha Fe as Delta Fi is to Delta Ne. If the Ne is insecure in Alpha due to the Fe -> the Fi is insecure in Delta due to the Ne.


What I get from this is that a Delta (an SLI) wouldn't care about not fitting social norms (which would be an Fe/Ti concern?) and therefore will not regard their difference as a problem or something that needs to be fixed or feel bad about it, but instead, the SLI 4 will focus on getting people to see & accept them for who & what they are and can become insecure about their ability to maintain stable interpersonal contact and about their difference affecting this ability negatively. <-- Fi HA insecurities?

That fits. But from the angle I'm taking here, I'd expect that to be more related to Delta ST than to Fi HA (i.e. it would apply more to ESTjs than to INTps). Probably the INTps would not see the need to be different.

strrrng
03-13-2009, 07:06 PM
omg. I never said ISFps couldn't be 4s. you are just automatically assuming I think that because I didn't think posts like yours were particularly helpful. I thought what jxrtes posted was useful/interesting, and what he posted hinted that yes, there is a chance that ISFps could be 4s, or at least possibly identify some with the type. :8*

It doesn't matter what your claim was or wasn't. The significant thing, is that you were dismissing other peoples' points -- which were valid -- about ISFps being 4s, under some facile pretense of what you made their arguments out to be ("ISFps are 4s cause I say so") -- which couldn't be further from the truth. This coupled with the fact that your comment was completely gratuitous and added nothing to the thread, is what was annoying; it pretty much sounded like a child on the sideline commenting on some innocuous bullshit.


Let him bark. :)

Hah. This coming from the person who pretended to block me to abscond from an argument and save his ego. I'll let you continue yelp from underwater -- much like the rodent in my avatar ;)

Mediator Kam
03-13-2009, 08:37 PM
@glam, I'm not asking about any other "ISFps" who posted in this thread, but is my typing one of the ones you dispute?


I will say one thing though. I think SEIs will often try to make themselves stand out, but in a very different way to the Four. A Four will try, and will succeed. An SEI will try, and anyone with at least some common sense will catch on to exactly what they're doing.

.... This makes no sense. I most definitely stand out to everyone I meet, so that must mean that everyone I know has no common sense, or maybe they're simply not as British as Ezra is, seeing through SEI poseurs like it's going out of style or something.

Mediator Kam
03-13-2009, 11:37 PM
well, I was talking about the celebrity examples that were cited. I'd guess almost half of those people aren't actually ISFp. but then again most of them are Model X-influenced typings, so yeah.

ahh, that is what I thought.

JRiddy
03-14-2009, 12:54 AM
:Si:-dominants are supposed to be more in touch with their bodily senses than all the other types, while type 4s are one of the enneagrams types described as being most detached from their bodies. If it is possible for an ISFp to be a type 4, then I doubt it is common.

I don't really see what about a 4 makes them less likely to feel physically detached. Additionally, I think it is vague to claim that ISFps are "more in touch with their bodily senses" without explaining precisely what you mean by that. What kind of senses are they in touch with? How do they experience these senses? I would assume that they, like most people in general, experience all sense as some composition of more particular data that cannot be isolated to particular stimuli unless these are of particular importance. Perhaps they are more willing to give mental energy over to contemplating the subjective experience of their own senses, but in most of my experience with ISFps, this takes on a more whimsical or imaginative character, where senses are imbued with some fairly fantastic qualities.

Really I don't see the merit of any of these various arguments about ISFps all-too-strong connection to the "real world." If you think ISFps are too completely concrete to be a 4, you should consider meeting one. ;)


But 9s are part of the Withdrawn triad (which strrrng posted a link to at least once)...I think it's easier to accept an identity-seeking ISFp as a 9 who feels a sense of detachment from other people.

I think there do exist ISFp 9s like the ones you described, but if you actually get to know a reasonable sample of ISFps, you'd probably begin to some differences between the different flavors thereof.

Subteigh
03-14-2009, 01:04 AM
I believe that the 4s particular focus on finding an identity for themselves is due to the gulf between their self-absorbed state and other people. They are more prone to abstracting their emotions than other types, whereas 9s are better able to mediate between their inner self and the outside world.

JRiddy
03-14-2009, 01:07 AM
I believe that the 4s particular focus on finding an identity for themselves is due to the gulf between their self-absorbed state and other people. They are more prone to abstracting their emotions than other types. Whereas 9s are better able to mediate between their inner self and the outside world.

Nines compulsively mediate between themselves and the outside world. And yes I agree with what you said about 4s, and in turn suggest that none of those things are uncommon for ISFps to do.

Subteigh
03-14-2009, 01:14 AM
Nines compulsively mediate between themselves and the outside world. And yes I agree with what you said about 4s, and in turn suggest that none of those things are uncommon for ISFps to do.

Not necessarily compulsively.

Mediator Kam
03-14-2009, 04:48 AM
Why can't be all be friends?

Cyclops
03-14-2009, 08:40 AM
Why can't be all be friends?

Wow, you sound like a 9 ;)

Ezra
04-22-2011, 04:42 PM
When I wrote what I have written above was based on ISFp 9, I think this totally changes if you said you are a 9. to me 4 and 9 might look similar outside, but inside they are completely different people.

She's not a Four. I still can't believe people think Four SEIs can exist.

07490
04-22-2011, 04:47 PM
She's not a Four. I still can't believe people think Four SEIs can exist.

Ezra, ISFp four does exist. Only types i think there is are 4 and 9 for them. you can happily disagree.

ashlesha
04-22-2011, 04:47 PM
She's not a Four. I still can't believe people think Four SEIs can exist.

why not?

07490
04-22-2011, 04:48 PM
why not?

Rubicon/TheMime/Pinkcarnary/My co-worker/My Ex-girlfriend

theMime.
04-22-2011, 06:59 PM
Because Ezra's wee little brain can't comprehend anything too complex.

Interesting that he STILL has a very surface understanding of the enneagram and socionics.

theMime.
04-22-2011, 07:17 PM
She's not a Four. I still can't believe people think Four SEIs can exist.

Your understanding is so effing limited.

I'm not gonna let some idiot on the internet who has never even met me in person say who I am and who I'm not.

theMime.
04-22-2011, 07:17 PM
...leaving before I get even more bitchy...

Ezra
04-22-2011, 08:13 PM
I do happily disagree with you, numbers.


Because Ezra's wee little brain can't comprehend anything too complex.

theMime.'s wee little brain can't provide a justification for anything she claims.


Interesting that he STILL has a very surface understanding of the enneagram and socionics.

My understanding is far greater than yours.


Your understanding is so effing limited.

I'm not gonna let some idiot on the internet who has never even met me in person say who I am and who I'm not.

Don't then, you do have that right. You can just be wrong for the rest of your life.


...leaving before I get even more bitchy...

No, please do stay and be a bitch.

07490
04-22-2011, 08:16 PM
Oh Ezra. Not everyone who disagree with you are your enemy. if you do this continuously. no one will want to share anything with you. keep an open mind and not to attack people everything they disagree.

Ezra
04-22-2011, 08:19 PM
Oh Ezra. Not everyone who disagree with you are your enemy. if you do this continuously. no one will want to share anything with you. keep an open mind and not to attack people everything they disagree.

numbers I know you're not my enemy. If you mean theMime, does my response look like the mark of someone who thinks that? Maybe it's because I've just been insulted because I was curious.

07490
04-22-2011, 08:22 PM
all right I do understand you were insulted right before you made those comment, and you attack back. But when I read your post in here in general is that you have a hard time letting people disagree with you and use aggression to vent them off.

Ezra
04-22-2011, 08:28 PM
all right I do understand you were insulted right before you made those comment, and you attack back. But when I read your post in here in general is that you have a hard time letting people disagree with you and use aggression to vent them off.

TBH I also got a major overreaction in a PM from theMime. earlier, which is why I am carrying a reaction to her hostility to a simple question from me over into this thread. I only read the thread after the PM.

detail
04-23-2011, 12:43 AM
TBH I also got a major overreaction in a PM from theMime. earlier, which is why I am carrying a reaction to her hostility to a simple question from me over into this thread. I only read the thread after the PM.

Yeah and everybody know 9s constantly react this way to debates over their identity. Great job.

Ezra
04-23-2011, 09:46 AM
Yeah and everybody know 9s constantly react this way to debates over their identity. Great job.

Sorry, who the fuck are you?

detail
04-23-2011, 05:39 PM
Sorry, who the fuck are you?

Spare me this shit and address the fucking issue moron.

Ezra
04-24-2011, 11:15 AM
Spare me this shit and address the fucking issue moron.

Spare me your negativity you miserable piece of shit and maybe I will.

Absurd
04-24-2011, 11:18 AM
Detail reminds me of ananke/mimosa, can't be sure though.

Absurd
04-24-2011, 02:48 PM
No.

Why not ? I shares the "a" in ananke and mimosa.

detail
04-24-2011, 02:57 PM
Spare me your negativity you miserable piece of shit and maybe I will.

Pardon me for the rudeness, i just can't stand it when i see adults purposefully acting like 4 years olds.

Absurd
04-24-2011, 03:06 PM
Pardon me for the rudeness, i just can't stand it when i see adults purposefully acting like 4 years olds.

Said an ILE ?

detail
04-24-2011, 03:35 PM
From a social/interpersonnal point of view at least.

Absurd
04-24-2011, 03:43 PM
From a social/interpersonnal point of view at least.

And in cuntonish ?

detail
04-24-2011, 03:48 PM
Much less.

Absurd
04-24-2011, 03:54 PM
Much less.

Sold.

theMime.
04-30-2011, 03:39 AM
Ezra was nice enough to let me quote him.

"Because Four = Ni. The very core of the Four relates to the essence of Ni. The only way - to my mind - a Four could look like an SEI is in very superficial ways: such as being artistic, and aesthetic (for sp-first Four). The Victim mentality of the IEI corresponds perfectly to the Four, Caregiver... very little. On the contrary, the Four is looking for someone to rescue them, not someone to care for. I don't really know of any SEIs in my life that I could plausibly look at and think they were a Four. Almost all of them are Nines, a few maybe Sevens. On the other hand, every Four I know is an IEI. I even thought that Sixes could be IEIs for a while, until my friend told me he'd reconsidered and realised he was a Four." - Ezra

"Fours are moody, brooding, introspective, dark and Alphas are happy, cutesy and fun... it's SO different (just like how Nines can't be Beta)!" -Ezra

Do discuss.

I'm very curious about what you guys have to say in response. Not just about the argument for why SEIs can't be 4s and IEIs can only be 4s but about romance styles (victim, agressor, caregiver, infantile) and Alphas and Betas in general.

I know exactly what I think. But I think I'm going to sit back and watch because some of you guys are likely going to say exactly what I'm thinking in far better wording than I'd be able to come up with.

Sir Knight
04-30-2011, 04:29 AM
I am an IEI 5. I am the exception to your rule.

...that's, ah, that's all.

male
04-30-2011, 06:33 AM
There's nothing wrong with IEI 5. There's a big problem with anyone other than IXIs and EIEs being Fours though.

Like SEIs. Also SEI 7s, it's not cognitively possible for any introtim to be a Seven.

Korpsy Knievel
04-30-2011, 06:35 AM
I am the exception to your rule.

More of these, plx.

717495
04-30-2011, 06:57 AM
Fours are moody, brooding, introspective, dark and Alphas are happy, cutesy and fun... it's SO different (just like how Nines can't be Beta)!

I wonder if some Alphas are not as happy and cutesy, and more moody and introspective. Hmmmm..........

















NAH!

Bluenoir
04-30-2011, 07:03 AM
I love simplistic quadra stereotyping. We alphas are cute little puppies at heart.

silke
04-30-2011, 07:36 AM
4 is also the preferred type of the aggressor ESI and the infantile EII types so this doesn't quite match-up though it is still an interesting question why SEIs seem to prefer 2,6,9 while other introverted ethical types favor 4

as for alpha not being moody, dark, and introspective, I've heard LIIs complain how they at times they scare themselves with their own thoughts and how they don't have an 'off-switch' to simply turn off their thinking when it starts getting dark and negative

Absurd
04-30-2011, 07:52 AM
a Four could look like an SEI is in very superficial ways: such as being artistic, and aesthetic (for sp-first Four).

Haha, I've been waiting for this.

Bluenoir
04-30-2011, 09:12 AM
as for alpha not being moody, dark, and introspective, I've heard LIIs complain how they at times they scare themselves with their own thoughts and how they don't have an 'off-switch' to simply turn off their thinking when it starts getting dark and negative

I can attest to this. I think this happens to anyone who is introspective enough though.

male
04-30-2011, 09:54 AM
Even to people who aren't typically introspective, like most 9s.

I know I get anything from melancholic to depressed a lot.

BandD
04-30-2011, 02:22 PM
I'm a 6.

I never went through life feeling like I was incredibly special or different from everybody else or I had this super unique identity as an artist. Although I always wanted to be an artist from the time I was 2, I never once emoishly thought 'ooh this means I am better/worse and different than everybody else.' And I never really was conflicted over my identity the way 4s are. My biggest concern has always been trying to quell my fears, and keeping myself safe.

I am unreasonably fearful about stuff (instead of self-loathing, I can understand they can be easily confused though), but I'm not all emo tortured artist-like. I'm just not like that. I never understood what it's like to feel like hurting myself, or feeling all torn identity-y (LoL identity-y). And I always was self-aware enough to realize that other people could understand me if they wanted to and they put effort in- I didn't have any of the 4 issues, all 6 issues.

I did very well in that group home lol, which was a 6 place up the butt, that focused on teamwork and involvement, and stuff that made me feel secure. And I was well-liked there.

Or maybe I've always been a 'healthy 4' but nobody ever believes that a 4 could be healthy so what's the point? Even the enneagram authors themselves hold a condescending grudge against 4s of that nature.

In fact I'm learning that personality theory is a way for people to excuse their hatred or dislike for others. Because nobody is sharing themselves like they want them to (the human instinctive need to connect and share and love and grow that the bullies of the world naturally ruin for everybody else, turning us into soulless worker slaves), people get so annoyed at how guarded people are, so in an attempt to understand them they try to give them thoughts they don't really have. They're not really being assholes I suppose (actually the opposite, it's good intentions gone wrong. And good intentions almost always go wrong), but it's misguided as hell. "OH you must be a self-loathing 4, because you're a fag and you're an artist, and you're shy and stuff." It's beyond vulgar and crude, with no nuance lol.

It's more like "I must be a 6, because I have the same phobic concerns and I just want to feel safe and have a buddy around to protect me."

So therapists are interesting beasts. "WHY ISN'T EVERYBODY TALKING ABOUT WHO THEY REALLY ARE, AND INSTEAD BEING ALL FAKE. WHY CAN'T THEY SIT DOWN WITH ME FOREVER AND TALK ABOUT THEIR PROBLEMS." And they get annoyed that other people have their own wills and don't really feel like vomiting their emotional throw-up for the world to see, so they project all these negative qualities onto people. It really boils down to a matter of lightening up, and realizing that people aren't out to get you just because they don't want to share themselves. They don't want to share themselves- because when they did, they just got bullied like the IEI Cynthia in one of my stories. So, you just have to respect that I guess. But they noticed, when they stopped doing that and just sorta....went through the motions and laughed and pretended to be happy, they were well-liked, so that's what they pretended to do.

ashlesha
04-30-2011, 02:56 PM
i tried to quote it and do a line by line thing but there was nothing i could really grab onto because it was mostly assertions with no explanation. "the core of 4 = the essence of Ni" - what, why? wtf does this mean? the typings he's made irl could be wrong and affected by this theory about 4s and i think B&D is a 6, for one. and i also don't see how the erotic roles have to correlate to the enneagram or why somebody being a caregiver would contradict the longing for a rescuer. i don't really understand the rescuer thing but nothing i've read about it makes me think the rescuer would have to be some Se type. this is never explained, so idk.

and the alpha/beta mood thing...:8* lol

Galen
04-30-2011, 07:04 PM
I know an ISFp 4. Nice girl, prone to depression though.

Park
04-30-2011, 07:22 PM
There's a big problem with anyone other than IXIs and EIEs being Fours though.

Hello.

thePirate
04-30-2011, 08:18 PM
I pretty much agree with ezra, most IEIs are mostly 4's with the possibility of being 6's. An SEI being a 4 is highly unlikely, and at this point I would pretty much say impossible. I don't see any SEI's here as any proof of 4ness, as the Ni in that description is clear. A depressed or introspective SEI is not the same as a 4, and I think that's where the misconceptions come in. It makes little sense for someone who doesn't have an Ni ego, or strong intuition at all, to have 4 issues as that is what its primarily based on. There may be something I'm not seeing, and I will admit I'm still open to the idea, but I have a hard time seeing or buying it. Also an IEI 5, to me, is even more unlikely. It doesn't make any sense at all. If you're a 5 you should consider looking into ILI. Any who that's my 2 cents.

golden
04-30-2011, 08:50 PM
My self-type is EIE-Ni 4w3. I can see why someone might associate 4 with Ni, because an Ni-ego is going to, um, build identify and find meaning not via life's day-to-day stuff, but on a more interpretive level. I'm not sure that's the best way to put it, will have to think about it.

But I don't see why an IEI couldn't be a 6, like BnD, or possibly a 9? I wouldn't exclude the possibility of IEI-Fe 3, either. And I also think there may be some nearly impossible Sociotype/Enneagram combinations, but there are always going to be tendencies as well as outliers.

Galen
04-30-2011, 09:02 PM
Hello.
I've never really understood why you'd be a 4. Could you explain yourself?

DividedsGhost
04-30-2011, 10:53 PM
I'm IEI 9w8...in terms of Jung anyway.

07490
05-01-2011, 01:46 AM
I pretty much agree with ezra, most IEIs are mostly 4's with the possibility of being 6's. An SEI being a 4 is highly unlikely, and at this point I would pretty much say impossible. I don't see any SEI's here as any proof of 4ness, as the Ni in that description is clear. A depressed or introspective SEI is not the same as a 4, and I think that's where the misconceptions come in. It makes little sense for someone who doesn't have an Ni ego, or strong intuition at all, to have 4 issues as that is what its primarily based on. There may be something I'm not seeing, and I will admit I'm still open to the idea, but I have a hard time seeing or buying it. Also an IEI 5, to me, is even more unlikely. It doesn't make any sense at all. If you're a 5 you should consider looking into ILI. Any who that's my 2 cents.

It's just that this would make sense if you corelate information element to an enneagram type behavior. Ni does sound dramatic,romantic,different and fit the fours well. But looking in reality and typing some seis for quite some time the few portion of them who i think is a four doesnt fit the nine motive at all. These group of seis, even with introvert sensation being their strongest suit, have traits, motives and intergation/disintergration that are type 4. Sometimes it just doesnt make sense if u rationalized it on paper and i think people will stomp upon a lot of contradiction going across the two system. So i think this isnt a black and white issue and concrete evidence is best to prove this.

female
05-01-2011, 07:08 AM
It's just that this would make sense if you corelate information element to an enneagram type behavior. Ni does sound dramatic,romantic,different and fit the fours well. But looking in reality and typing some seis for quite some time the few portion of them who i think is a four doesnt fit the nine motive at all. These group of seis, even with introvert sensation being their strongest suit, have traits, motives and intergation/disintergration that are type 4. Sometimes it just doesnt make sense if u rationalized it on paper and i think people will stomp upon a lot of contradiction going across the two system. So i think this isnt a black and white issue and concrete evidence is best to prove this.

I liek :P

Mediator Kam
05-01-2011, 08:40 PM
When I was younger and clearly more disturbed than I am now, I considered myself 4w3, and then I considered myself 2w3. Toyed with them both, and yes, at times I could accept myself being either of those. But I think 9w1 does describe myself the best. I am 9w1 probably.

But can an SEI be 4? I would imagine this person to be heavily pained most of the time, always having an emotional problem to solve.

Gilly
05-01-2011, 08:48 PM
Pezra. Shut it.

Lotus
05-01-2011, 08:59 PM
hi natalie! (its allie)

personally, i think e4 would be a common type for isfps, along with 9s etc.


Ezra doesn't know shit. There are plenty SEI E4s (IIRC, you are one of them). End of discussion.
what does IIRC mean





lol @ pezra, oh memories

Lotus
05-01-2011, 09:00 PM
is ezra a real name btw, no offense dude, i love you. but i've never heard of it

male
05-01-2011, 10:08 PM
The inner world of the Four = Ni. It's about the emotional predictions denied the factual world of the Five.

Si is incapable of this. More artistic/introverted SEIs are capable of producing artistry and poetry. Some SEIs are HSPs, and thus are prisoners in a world of artistry, poetry, beauty and/or intensity that other people are simply incapable of apprehending.

But that doesn't meant they're Fours or not Nines. People often ignore the fact that Nines are Withdrawn Triad. Nines often have elaborate inner lives, built off reality. It's just that the Silver Lining of Positive Outlook makes them seem like they always look on the bright side--though often they do, since like 7s they're gifted with seeing the good side of EVERYTHING.

It's also a good point that Caregivers cannot be the overwhelmingly Victimy type of the E4. Even when I feel victimy, it's more expressed as 5w4--I wish someone could understand my mind, talk to me on a similar intellectual level, understand the world with the sophistication I do.

Lotus
05-01-2011, 10:15 PM
Edit: oh, and IIRC = "if I recall correctly"



http://i.imgur.com/SBQMn.png
oh my god i forgot about this. i miss my wacom tablet. i drew a mean ****** too that day


I wish someone could understand my mind, talk to me on a similar intellectual level, understand the world with the sophistication I do.
oh woe is you

bg
05-01-2011, 10:35 PM
oh my god i forgot about this. i miss my wacom tablet. i drew a mean ****** too that day



http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p95/SKYNET_2007/Image14.jpg

Lotus
05-01-2011, 10:42 PM
lol i remember thinking someone was coming onto there and erasing my work while i was almost done and getting so annoyed... then i realized after too many strokes it starts erasing your earlier ones, a bitch for cross-hatching :rolleyes:

Lotus
05-01-2011, 10:42 PM
<2222 wait a minute what else are you guys hoarding of mine?? and dont you dare post that gif of my face

bg
05-01-2011, 11:15 PM
<2222 wait a minute what else are you guys hoarding of mine?? and dont you dare post that gif of my face

I just have all the screenshots of those drawpad things in one of my photobuckets.

http://s126.photobucket.com/albums/p95/SKYNET_2007/#!cpZZ28QQtppZZ20

bg
05-01-2011, 11:29 PM
/off topic (sorry mime :P)

GuavaDrunk
05-13-2011, 04:34 AM
I don't see how Si and Ni are exclusively the province of 9s and 4s respectively. Si homeostasis hasn't been proven to dictate emotional states, it's possible to still be driven by abandonment and eternally in search of something better and undefined.
And Ni doesn't require such a search to work.
9s forget themselves, the person they forget could be anybody.
And what about gamma NTs? Are 5s and other enneatypes barred from Ni?

Korpsy Knievel
05-13-2011, 04:39 AM
Most ILIs are 5 than a mofo, Ni-subs often 5w4 and Te-subs 5w6.

717495
05-13-2011, 05:52 AM
Most ILIs are 5 than a mofo, Ni-subs often 5w4 and Te-subs 5w6.

Prove this using unprotected sex.

Skeptic
05-13-2011, 07:33 PM
Prove this using unprotected sex.

WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT, OH FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS SENSIBLE, WHY, WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

inumbra
05-13-2011, 08:25 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if most 4s are IEIs and most IEIs 4s, but that's as far as I can go. I don't know if SEIs can be 4s and perhaps part of the issue is in varying interpretations of the 4.

I mean both 4 and 5 tend to live in inner worlds that become or can become more real to them than the outer world (they retreat into their inner world that is usually imaginative, intricate and very involved). If this "inner world" isn't such a part of someone, I would have issues seeing them as 4 or 5 regardless of what other qualities they have that may seem 4ish or 5ish.

SEIs supposedly don't have such developed inner worlds. So I can see why SEI wouldn't be associated easily with 4 because SEI is often described as not being so introspective or inner-worldly (it's a contradiction). And this is also an area where Ni and Si supposedly conflict. Ni is inner-worldly to the extent of needing Se to knock it out of such inner absorption; Si supposedly is immersed in present physical states and enjoyment and finds the developing of an inner world a chore as it would take away from these immediate pleasures (which can come in the form of mental interests and not simply physical things).

Seriously though, making absolute determinations either about Socionics or the Enneagram is not something that makes sense for me to do in my head--I don't believe that we come in a distinct number of kinds of people and therefore it's unlikely in my mind for there to be any Socionics/Enneagram combination that is "impossible" rather than differing degrees of unlikely.

Uncle Ave
05-14-2011, 09:38 PM
I think the stereotype of type four and IEI goes a bit too far, folks. I beleive all the the NF types are compatible with four, and all IEIs are not fours but can be 5s and 6s and even maybe 9s too. Not too sure about that last one.

jouziou
05-14-2011, 09:40 PM
ridiculous, SEIs can't be 4, but some of them ARE 4, and what's the point?

you mix up two completely different systems and try to formulate some thesis based on your generalizations and imaginations about enneagram types, i just don't know how to sum up this - stop?

PistolShrimp
03-02-2012, 05:12 PM
Is it possible to be an E4 SEI? I'm trying to imagine what that would combo would look like in a person and am having difficulty. :confused2:

Radio
03-02-2012, 05:45 PM
Andy Warhol?

http://bigotherbigother.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/marilyn-monroe2.jpg

http://lefashionmonster.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/glasses-andy-warhol.jpg

Allison Harvard aka Creepy-chan? Thom Yorke?

Rough guesses more or less (for E-types).

FoxOnStilts
03-02-2012, 05:59 PM
Yes, it is. I'm dating a 4w3 SEI at the moment. What seems contradictory to you in regards to SEI and type 4? There are a lot of misconceptions floating around the internet regarding 4s that are little more than overblown stereotypes. 5 have this problem, too.

ArchonAlarion
03-02-2012, 06:46 PM
4 and SEI seem to go together rather well. Introverted, artistic, passionate, etc.

Gilly
03-02-2012, 07:56 PM
IME 2, 3, 4, 6, and 9 are the usual etypes for SEIs.

Park
03-02-2012, 09:25 PM
Sure, why not.

Korpsy Knievel
03-02-2012, 11:38 PM
I've asked the same question about E-4 SEIs in regard to




























































Nicki Minaj.

Beautiful sky
03-03-2012, 05:28 AM
Only the well rounded enne types are possible for SEI; if you're more "gentle" yet stern, go for E9w1; and I guess E4 is possible too depending whether you're more E or I.

PistolShrimp
03-16-2012, 02:04 PM
Yes, it is. I'm dating a 4w3 SEI at the moment. What seems contradictory to you in regards to SEI and type 4? There are a lot of misconceptions floating around the internet regarding 4s that are little more than overblown stereotypes. 5 have this problem, too.Well, I read an enneagram book by Helen Palmer that has extremely in-depth type descriptions, and she repeatedly emphasizes the fact that type Fours do not live in the "here and now," that they're often dwelling on the past or the future and abstractions of what those hold, living in a fantasy world, etc. Her Four description seems very much like :Ni: to me.

Nowisthetime
03-16-2012, 02:16 PM
Well, I read an enneagram book by Helen Palmer that has extremely in-depth type descriptions, and she repeatedly emphasizes the fact that type Fours do not live in the "here and now," that they're often dwelling on the past or the future and abstractions of what those hold, living in a fantasy world, etc. Her Four description seems very much like :Ni: to me.

One can mean so many things with those words. And people can be like that in different ways. It doesn't necessarily have to be connected to Ni ego socionics type.

PistolShrimp
03-16-2012, 03:10 PM
One can mean so many things with those words. And people can be like that in different ways. It doesn't necessarily have to be connected to Ni ego socionics type.All true. However, Palmer's descriptions definitely painted the picture for me that Type Fours are far more focused on abstract images and fantasies of what isn't present than the tangible and concrete, which seems like Intuition vs. Sensing. I guess I'm wondering what "flavor" of SEI the Four enneatype would produce, as SEI descriptions tend to focus on the domestic/caregiving/comfort aspects instead of discussing any rich internal fantasy world that would jibe with Type Four characteristics.

FoxOnStilts
03-16-2012, 07:21 PM
Well, I read an enneagram book by Helen Palmer that has extremely in-depth type descriptions, and she repeatedly emphasizes the fact that type Fours do not live in the "here and now," that they're often dwelling on the past or the future and abstractions of what those hold, living in a fantasy world, etc. Her Four description seems very much like :Ni: to me.
I like some of Helen Palmer's work, but much prefer Naranjo's books. This (http://enneawhat.blogspot.com/2011/07/4-from-naranjo-texts.html) is pretty much c&p from one of his books on 4s. Basically they're just very pessimistic and have fairly low self-esteem, but it's worth keeping in mind that Naranjo's descriptions are often very negative. Personally, I think that makes typing easier, but can oftentimes seem very exaggerated as well. I think Palmer can be very behavior-focused instead of focusing on what motivates someone to have these behaviors.

Leader
03-16-2012, 10:09 PM
9...

Absurd
03-16-2012, 10:11 PM
As far the replies go, I don't even know why people bother with correlating E-type to socionics type. It doesn't work at all.

And that 9 comment of yours, Agee, as in only E-9. Do the math.

EDIT. Meow, Cluck, Fuck.

I've seen Aston's previous discoveries on enneagram and it evolves constantly. His previous exposť I remember doesn't link E-4 and SEI together, nor his "any Fi type can be E-4, later changed to any INFx type can be E-4" as well.

lemontrees
03-16-2012, 10:27 PM
All true. However, Palmer's descriptions definitely painted the picture for me that Type Fours are far more focused on abstract images and fantasies of what isn't present than the tangible and concrete, which seems like Intuition vs. Sensing. I guess I'm wondering what "flavor" of SEI the Four enneatype would produce, as SEI descriptions tend to focus on the domestic/caregiving/comfort aspects instead of discussing any rich internal fantasy world that would jibe with Type Four characteristics.

I specifically remember walking down a street with a friend once before I ever learned Socionics and saying, "You know, I'm always think about the past or the future, and meanwhile I can't manage to really live in the day to day." I think I was talking about this feeling that I was so constantly re-evaluating the circumstances that had taken me to the here and now, and, at the same time, trying to see how I could link a more ideal self of myself in the future to all the evidence I had of who I was. What actions I would have to take to get there. There was a huge disconnect in my mind, so it obsessed me.

I also remember the moment well because it was spring, and college was ending, and my best friend and I were taking a long walk by a river to buy some food from the grocery store. And I noticed how beautiful the little houses actually were (I had been sort of unhappy in college) and the sprays of flowers and trees next to them, and the brightness and calmness of the light-- It felt like something--a break, perhaps, from the former world. I knew that a self I was then occupying was ending. I suppose what I want to show with this is that Si (particularly when paired with Fe, perhaps?) can also be a sort of symbolic thinking. This doesn't have a direct bearing on E-types, but it should disclaim the misperception that it's all about "comfort" vs. a "rich fantasy world." In fact, the other SEI's I've met have tended to have more fantastical imaginations than average.

Absurd
03-16-2012, 10:42 PM
Well then. I know what this is all about now.

FoxOnStilts
03-16-2012, 10:47 PM
@lemontrees, I just realized that you're almost my bf. He's SEI-Si 4w3 sx/so. SO CLOSE.

(want to have the secks with me?)

lemontrees
03-16-2012, 11:02 PM
@lemontrees, I just realized that you're almost my bf. He's SEI-Si 4w3 sx/so. SO CLOSE.

(want to have the secks with me?)

Anytime, darling. ;)

Phthalate
03-17-2012, 01:24 AM
@lemontrees, I just realized that you're almost my bf. He's SEI-Si 4w3 sx/so. SO CLOSE.

(want to have the secks with me?)

Alpha slut

Park
03-17-2012, 02:50 AM
Alpha slut
Alpha slut

Park
03-17-2012, 02:52 AM
Lemontrees is a female and Fox is a lesbian. So that was actually funny.

male
03-17-2012, 03:05 AM
Alpha slut

What is this thing with you calling foxonstilts a slut... you are both from PerN.

FoxOnStilts
03-17-2012, 03:37 AM
What is this thing with you calling foxonstilts a slut... you are both from PerN.
He's just jealous that I get laid.

ArchonAlarion
03-17-2012, 04:36 AM
Si isn't exactly "here and now." It relates sensory perceptions to psychic contents (imagery, moods, memories etc.); much of the objective, "here and now" information is lost.

http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm

"Introverted sensation develops in accordance with this subjective direction. A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus. Subjective perception differs remarkably from the objective. It is either not found at all in the object, or, at most, merely suggested by it; it can, however, be similar to the sensation of other men, although not immediately derived from the objective behaviour of things. It does not impress one as a mere product of consciousness -- it is too genuine for that. But it makes a definite psychic impression, since elements of a higher psychic order are perceptible to it. This order, however, does not coincide with the contents of consciousness. It is concerned with presuppositions, or dispositions of the collective unconscious, with mythological images, with primal possibilities of ideas. The character of significance and meaning clings to subjective perception. It says more than the mere image of the object, though naturally only to him for whom the [p. 500] subjective factor has some meaning. To another, a reproduced subjective impression seems to suffer from the defect of possessing insufficient similarity with the object; it seems, therefore, to have failed in its purpose.

Subjective sensation apprehends the background of the physical world rather than its surface. The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them. Such a consciousness would see the becoming and the passing of things beside their present and momentary existence, and not only that, but at the same time it would also see that Other, which was before their becoming and will be after their passing hence. To this consciousness the present moment is improbable. This is, of course, only a simile, of which, however, I had need to give some sort of illustration of the peculiar nature of introverted sensation. Introverted sensation conveys an image whose effect is not so much to reproduce the object as to throw over it a wrapping whose lustre is derived from age-old subjective experience and the still unborn future event. Thus, mere sense impression develops into the depth of the meaningful, while extraverted sensation seizes only the momentary and manifest existence of things."

Phthalate
03-28-2012, 05:40 PM
Si isn't exactly "here and now." It relates sensory perceptions to psychic contents (imagery, moods, memories etc.); much of the objective, "here and now" information is lost.

http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm

"Introverted sensation develops in accordance with this subjective direction. A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus. Subjective perception differs remarkably from the objective. It is either not found at all in the object, or, at most, merely suggested by it; it can, however, be similar to the sensation of other men, although not immediately derived from the objective behaviour of things. It does not impress one as a mere product of consciousness -- it is too genuine for that. But it makes a definite psychic impression, since elements of a higher psychic order are perceptible to it. This order, however, does not coincide with the contents of consciousness. It is concerned with presuppositions, or dispositions of the collective unconscious, with mythological images, with primal possibilities of ideas. The character of significance and meaning clings to subjective perception. It says more than the mere image of the object, though naturally only to him for whom the [p. 500] subjective factor has some meaning. To another, a reproduced subjective impression seems to suffer from the defect of possessing insufficient similarity with the object; it seems, therefore, to have failed in its purpose.

Subjective sensation apprehends the background of the physical world rather than its surface. The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them. Such a consciousness would see the becoming and the passing of things beside their present and momentary existence, and not only that, but at the same time it would also see that Other, which was before their becoming and will be after their passing hence. To this consciousness the present moment is improbable. This is, of course, only a simile, of which, however, I had need to give some sort of illustration of the peculiar nature of introverted sensation. Introverted sensation conveys an image whose effect is not so much to reproduce the object as to throw over it a wrapping whose lustre is derived from age-old subjective experience and the still unborn future event. Thus, mere sense impression develops into the depth of the meaningful, while extraverted sensation seizes only the momentary and manifest existence of things."

Last I heard, IE definitions aren't really the same as Jung's :\.

ArchonAlarion
03-28-2012, 07:25 PM
Last I heard, there is more controversy over proper IE definitions than over Jungian ones, and Jung came up with the concepts in the first place.

:/.

Phthalate
03-28-2012, 07:27 PM
Last I heard, there is more controversy over proper IE definitions than over Jungian ones, and Jung came up with the concepts in the first place.

:/.

Right, I agree with this.

What I mean is that, as far as I know, Jung's Si != :Si:, and thus it's hard to rely on Jung as a source when both things aren't exactly compatible. A SEI doesn't necessarily Jung's Introverted Sensation type.

ArchonAlarion
03-28-2012, 07:36 PM
I would then advocate the return of IE descriptions to Jungian ones, whilst keeping the Socionics elaborations that really defined the theory in the first place (separately from Jung and MBTI), meaning intertype relations and the elaborate intra-type dynamics.

Also, I disagree with your premise that :Si: != Introverted Sensation. Instead, I believe that interpretations of :Si: by people in this forum and some later russians altered the definitions or misunderstood them from what Aushra originally intended.

inumbra
03-28-2012, 08:10 PM
The area of E4 that I see possibly applying to SEI is sp-first. But I still suspect that a lot of the more artistic and/or dreamy SEIs would probably fit better with E9, perhaps sx-first especially. I see sx-first E9 as looking a little similar to E4 on a superficial level. One may focus on their need to merge completely with a single other (who could be thought of as their "rescuer") in a comfy bubble of one-ness, which could make one feel complete and not abandoned/alone (but I think the Nine wants to give themselves over to another's essence when like this, losing or denying their own essence, or perhaps hoping to find their essence and what they are like or would want by comparing it to the other). I really think that E4s may often go towards torture while E9s may often wish to go into a fantasy that is a little fluffier (like a fairy tale) and escape/avoid torture (the Nine can create an almost torture-free and mellow inner world and is more inclined to do this than to plunge into all of the ways that they see themselves as defective and torment themselves endlessly over it). So when dramatically imbalanced I kind of imagine the E9 as fully in their bubble saying that everything is just fine, lost in a fantasy land; while the E4 may strike out at times so that everyone can see how tortured they are and how not right everything is. Eventually the Four falls to despair and eventually the Nine's comfy denial bubble bursts leaving them in panic (and in both states one is withdrawn from the world). I don't know, when I think about these things, it really seems more likely to me that the Four is incredibly Ni. The Four is also said to rock the boat a lot and this isn't something I would associate with Si--deliberately creating charged and unpleasant situations to get some sort of reaction/response that reflects the intensity of the Four's feelings, that would maybe give someone else cause to do something about it and the Four, thereby feeding the Four's craving for intensity.

Anyway the sp-first E4 may especially throw the towel in and retreat to momentary pleasures and comforts, over-indulging in things like alcohol and comfort food. Behind this they are of course tormented and they've decided that their suffering is so great and so impossible to overcome that they'll just throw away all of their dreams for the future, to indulge in transient things in the present, in part perhaps to make a statement (if only to themselves) about just how tortured and over the edge they are now, but also just for the sake of making a salve for their pain. Anyway this isn't really living in the present, but actually it's avoiding the present and the situation (feeling unable to endure the present). Anyway I can see an SEI going this route.

Park
03-28-2012, 08:29 PM
SLI 4s are the shiat.

Gilly
03-28-2012, 08:49 PM
SLI 4s are the shiat.

I'm skeptical...example?

Park
03-28-2012, 08:51 PM
I'm skeptical...example?

Me, myself, and I.

Gilly
03-28-2012, 09:00 PM
Me, myself, and I.

Oh. I'm on Tapatalk so I can't see the sidebar, forgot that's what you list yourself as. I suppose I can see it...I think I would lean 9w8 for you though. You have some 8 boisterous rambunctiousness and reactivity but you don't strike me as being as internally conflicted as most 4s, they always seem to present this sense of having considered everything so thoroughly and only getting emotionally involved in something when it is either personal or a vital subject for them; they present a smooth facade and slowly uncoil. You seem more directly reactive, like you have this vibe of "I don't want to fight but I will if I have to, and in fact if you step close I will give a reminder" which is how I usually think of 8w9s/9w8s.

Why do you feel you are image triad?

Absurd
03-28-2012, 09:03 PM
Why do you feel you are image triad?

He owns a mirror.

Gilly
03-28-2012, 09:09 PM
I ask this because I think realization of being an image triad type is usually a pretty shameful experience and is really kind of a revelation to most people, like an ugly puppet master having his set collapse. Is/was that true for you?

Park
03-28-2012, 09:10 PM
I am on Tapatalk too, and tapping this phone is getting annoying... I don't have an e-type listed in the sidebar. I might answer your question when I get in front of a keyboard. Your observation seems correct, and my enneagram selftyping is N/A. All types are vague and all over the place and neither one fits me well.

Park
03-28-2012, 09:14 PM
Is/was what true for me? Be more concise if you want me to answer.

Park
03-28-2012, 09:26 PM
Btw, I have the weirdest reaction to you Gilly. One time you're super nice and friendly, and next thing you know you become the most despicable asshole, making me want to punch you in the balls. I wonder if you are just inconsistent/unbalanced, or I seriosly suck at reading/judging people.

Gilly
03-28-2012, 09:36 PM
Well I am both very nice and a good hearted person, and simultaneously an insufferable jackoff when I want to be. I act like a dick to release energy that would otherwise accumulate and make me less tolerant of or sensitive towards others in the long run. In other words, I'm a dick so that I don't become an asshole.

The short answer is that yeah I'm just kind of moody and unstable.

Gilly
03-28-2012, 10:36 PM
The puppet master analogy. I think most people who are image triad don't really realize it at first very often because the whole fixation involves kind of pulling a double bluff on oneself, and when the bluff is exposed its usually kind of traumatic. For example I read E3 descriptions many times before the words on the page translated into recognition of my own actions and mentality, and when it clicked I felt this kind of inescapable embarrassment, like, "Oh my God...can other people tell this about me? Am I only fooling myself?" etc. The main methodology of the heart triad is deception, and the main motive is shame, so when the curtain is removed there is kind of a shock of shame.

Park
03-29-2012, 02:25 PM
I read E3 descriptions many times before the words on the page translated into recognition of my own actions and mentality

That just means you're retarded. No, but seriously, seeing things from a different perspective is nothing special or unique. We all have our little epiphanies about different things and at different points in our lives.

The reason I used to identify with 4 descriptions was the accent on emotional sensitivity, natural capacity for experiencing deep/profound feelings and the inevitable need to express them. Also, things like feeling constant emotional longing and exploring ways to fill the inner dissatisfaction/void through sensory indulgence, art, and stuff like that. But then, some enneagram publications take fours into some kind of abstract realm of confusion and complete irrationality, which isn't something I relate to that much.

9s sound steady and laid-back, but boring/shallow. My self-perception is probably closer to the reserved, intellectual 5.

Park
03-29-2012, 02:34 PM
Well I am both very nice and a good hearted person, and simultaneously an insufferable jackoff when I want to be. I act like a dick to release energy that would otherwise accumulate and make me less tolerant of or sensitive towards others in the long run. In other words, I'm a dick so that I don't become an asshole.

The short answer is that yeah I'm just kind of moody and unstable.

Well at least you're not pretentious or overly narcissistic.

I am kind of the opposite, I think. I let things build up inside, and when I go off it can be heavy. I try hard not to lose my cool sometimes, but this usually results in doing self-destructive things. Even if it's not self-destructive it usually comes back to bite me in the ass sometime down the road, though not always.

Gilly
03-29-2012, 09:30 PM
Hmmm...the things you mention aren't really so much integral parts of the 4 fixation as they are "typical symptoms;" being a 4 has a lot more to do with the formation and integration of a personal identity than any of those things. You don't really seem to recognize the typical image triad "crisis" either so I can't really say there's a good chance of you being a 4.

9s do kind of sound boring on the surface but to me they are actually one of the most interesting of all types as far as the actual experience of reality and basis of the fixation go; they basically exemplify the most innate conflict or crisis of human existence. I'm currently writing a novel in which the main character is a 9; in fact I think the literary Hero Quest archetype itself describes the integration of a 9 to 3.

Gilly
03-29-2012, 09:33 PM
Oh by the way the strategy you describe is pretty much exactly how 9w8s deal with anger: they take it all until they can bear no more, and then they explode. Stereotypical cashier who takes shit day in day out only to come to work with a gun to deal out justice is probably usually a 9w1.

Gilly
03-29-2012, 09:47 PM
I think a lot of people look at 9 as the "bitch" type of the enneagram, and a lot of 9s do wind up feeling like bitches if they take too long to integrate and will probably implode/self-destruct/go insane. But more self-aware 9s deal with their anger pretty similarly to how you describe and the 8 wings especially are harder to trample or pull a fast one on.

I kind of think of 9s as the main characters of life...they are just going through it, they are the center of the gut triad: experiencing life instinctively, taking it all in, and acting as they see fit.

silke
03-29-2012, 10:05 PM
The reason I used to identify with 4 descriptions was the accent on emotional sensitivity, natural capacity for experiencing deep/profound feelings and the inevitable need to express them. Also, things like feeling constant emotional longing and exploring ways to fill the inner dissatisfaction/void through sensory indulgence, art, and stuff like that. But then, some enneagram publications take fours into some kind of abstract realm of confusion and complete irrationality, which isn't something I relate to that much.

9s sound steady and laid-back, but boring/shallow. My self-perception is probably closer to the reserved, intellectual 5.

I'm inclined to think your type is e1 based on the threads you made on value of integrity and unconditional love. It sounds like frustration triad (1-4-7) idealism, but not the melancholy, escapist idealism of e4, rather the perfectionist moral idealism of e1.

Park
03-30-2012, 12:39 AM
Hmmm...the things you mention aren't really so much integral parts of the 4 fixation as they are "typical symptoms;" being a 4 has a lot more to do with the formation and integration of a personal identity than any of those things. You don't really seem to recognize the typical image triad "crisis" either so I can't really say there's a good chance of you being a 4.

Well I did have my identity crisis period a few years ago. I was a lot more self-oriented back then.

The thing is, things change. You can say I was a 4, then a 5, and now I'm approaching 9s. Take that, dynamic enneagram. :hello:

No, but who cares to fit in a dumb system like the enneagram. I'd probably hate the people who masturbated (mentally) all day long to come up with it.

Park
03-30-2012, 12:51 AM
Oh by the way the strategy you describe is pretty much exactly how 9w8s deal with anger: they take it all until they can bear no more, and then they explode. Stereotypical cashier who takes shit day in day out only to come to work with a gun to deal out justice is probably usually a 9w1.

You mean like this guy?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMX7NOqYNcw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3W0AnCAZsg

I loved that movie.

Park
03-30-2012, 12:59 AM
I'm inclined to think your type is e1 based on the threads you made on value of integrity and unconditional love. It sounds like frustration triad (1-4-7) idealism, but not the melancholy, escapist idealism of e4, rather the perfectionist moral idealism of e1.

That is an interesting observation, thank you. However, the quantity of information upon which you're guesstimating my enneagram type is ridiculously small. But then, the enneagram is probably just as ridiculously small in terms of the things it tries to encompass, and its precision.

Park
03-30-2012, 01:10 AM
I think a lot of people look at 9 as the "bitch" type of the enneagram, and a lot of 9s do wind up feeling like bitches if they take too long to integrate and will probably implode/self-destruct/go insane. But more self-aware 9s deal with their anger pretty similarly to how you describe and the 8 wings especially are harder to trample or pull a fast one on.

I kind of think of 9s as the main characters of life...they are just going through it, they are the center of the gut triad: experiencing life instinctively, taking it all in, and acting as they see fit.

Now that you mention it, I think I've been focused on my quest for justice lately. People in my close family have protested against my inclination to "seek and administer justice" saying bullshit like no one gives me the right to judge/control their behavior or be the one who straightens things out. People I work with have said they sometimes feel like walking on eggshells around me.

None of this gets to me, and I couldn't give less shit until people I trust and have faith in turn their backs or let me down. Constantly being guilt-tripped (without an objective, logical foundation) by someone you love for doing things wrong (instead of being encouraged and appreciated) isn't very pleasant either.

Park
04-06-2012, 02:17 AM
The puppet master analogy. I think most people who are image triad don't really realize it at first very often because the whole fixation involves kind of pulling a double bluff on oneself, and when the bluff is exposed its usually kind of traumatic. For example I read E3 descriptions many times before the words on the page translated into recognition of my own actions and mentality, and when it clicked I felt this kind of inescapable embarrassment, like, "Oh my God...can other people tell this about me? Am I only fooling myself?" etc. The main methodology of the heart triad is deception, and the main motive is shame, so when the curtain is removed there is kind of a shock of shame.


I'm in such a strangely intense mood tonight that I actually shed a watery tear down my face. The shame I carry with me is unbearable sometimes. And it's the tiny little mistakes I make that create it.

Park
04-06-2012, 02:21 AM
I need to start a blog or something. But then, I don't think anyone will read it. Do I want people to read it? I don't know. I'm such a mess inside.

Gilly
04-06-2012, 12:34 PM
I'm in such a strangely intense mood tonight that I actually shed a watery tear down my face. The shame I carry with me is unbearable sometimes. And it's the tiny little mistakes I make that create it.

What kind of mistakes?

Gilly
04-06-2012, 12:35 PM
I need to start a blog or something. But then, I don't think anyone will read it. Do I want people to read it? I don't know. I'm such a mess inside.

I'll read it. You have me curious now.

Park
04-06-2012, 11:07 PM
Why are you acting "nice" now Gill? Are you trying to get on good terms with me? Is there an ulterior motive I should know about, or you're just fucked up unstable like that?

Let's say I buy your fake Fi bullshit for a second. What kind of satisfaction are you going to derive when I give you the opportunity to turn into an aggressive asshole (towards me) again?

Codie
04-07-2012, 12:23 AM
I need to start a blog or something. But then, I don't think anyone will read it. Do I want people to read it? I don't know. I'm such a mess inside. Yh I tried to start a blog but I just felt really stupid, like I was talking to myself...

Aquagraph
04-08-2012, 12:39 PM
Rosa Maria Consuela Lopez (see Unofficial Member Picture Thread) might be e4.

theMime.
08-04-2012, 08:07 AM
Si supposedly is immersed in present physical states and enjoyment and finds the developing of an inner world a chore as it would take away from these immediate pleasures

Yeah Si is fantastic to have after falling down a flight of stairs or accidentally burning your hand on the stove or dropping a knife on your foot. The outer world is just so damn pleasurable I don't know how I keep myself away from it. But you know, La La Land has it's positives too.


Seriously though, making absolute determinations either about Socionics or the Enneagram is not something that makes sense for me to do in my head--I don't believe that we come in a distinct number of kinds of people and therefore it's unlikely in my mind for there to be any Socionics/Enneagram combination that is "impossible" rather than differing degrees of unlikely.

QFT.

Ben Teskey
08-04-2012, 10:42 AM
Ezra was nice enough to let me quote him.

"Because Four = Ni. The very core of the Four relates to the essence of Ni. The only way - to my mind - a Four could look like an SEI is in very superficial ways: such as being artistic, and aesthetic (for sp-first Four). The Victim mentality of the IEI corresponds perfectly to the Four, Caregiver... very little. On the contrary, the Four is looking for someone to rescue them, not someone to care for. I don't really know of any SEIs in my life that I could plausibly look at and think they were a Four. Almost all of them are Nines, a few maybe Sevens. On the other hand, every Four I know is an IEI. I even thought that Sixes could be IEIs for a while, until my friend told me he'd reconsidered and realised he was a Four." - Ezra

"Fours are moody, brooding, introspective, dark and Alphas are happy, cutesy and fun... it's SO different (just like how Nines can't be Beta)!" -Ezra

Do discuss.

I'm very curious about what you guys have to say in response. Not just about the argument for why SEIs can't be 4s and IEIs can only be 4s but about romance styles (victim, agressor, caregiver, infantile) and Alphas and Betas in general.

I know exactly what I think. But I think I'm going to sit back and watch because some of you guys are likely going to say exactly what I'm thinking in far better wording than I'd be able to come up with.

That's not the very essence of the 4.

This:

Holy Idea: Origin
Vice: Envy
Virtue: Equanimity (calmness and composure)
Enneagram Triad: Image (Associated Emotion: Shame)
Hornevian Triad: Withdrawn
Harmonic Triad: Reactive
Basic Drive: Isolation vs. Connection
Basic Fear: Loss of Identity
Basic Desire: Uniqueness
Freudian Association: Ego


Not to say that 4s don't exist, but you should probably also understand that people in the 369 archetype make up just over half of the population.

FoxOnStilts
08-04-2012, 03:41 PM
There is no contradiction between SEI and 4. Fours suffer from envy because they feel "lesser", and yearn for what other people have that they think they are missing. As a result, they're very negative and pessimistic, and can seem a bit...blow-hard, I guess is the word, because they try to emulate traits that they like in other people in hopes that it will let them have that missing bit (especially so first 4s). I don't see anything contradictory to Si in that.

I think the main post about IEIs only being fours and SEI not being fours is dumb, and bringing relationship styles and quadra values into the discussion is completely irrelevant to enneagram, but I can't help but think of dichotomies and how negativists first notice what is missing (a very 4 thing) and positivists first notice what is there. IEIs are positivists and SEIs are negativists. Fours don't come off as very caregiving, but they also don't come off as very positivist. Trying to merge the theories like that is dumb. Enneagram is about motivations and defense mechanisms. The rest is just bullshit that sprang up around it so people could read nice things about themselves, and the enneagram is not a very nice system.

(I did just get a new enneagram book the other day that is very nice for showing people though :) )

Absurd
08-04-2012, 04:32 PM
Off topic but I thought that positivists focus on similarities looking for a single solution to a problem whilst negativists focus and notice differences opting for several solutions to a problem.

FoxOnStilts
08-04-2012, 06:26 PM
Off topic but I thought that positivists focus on similarities looking for a single solution to a problem whilst negativists focus and notice differences opting for several solutions to a problem.
Yeah, I was just focusing on a single facet of a dichotomy to show why trying to use these socionics terms to say why a certain sociotype can or cannot be an enneagram type is dumb.

lemontrees
08-05-2012, 07:24 PM
Another thing I'd like to add to the SEI/type 4 debate:

I've been thinking quite a bit on the relationship between Si and the 4's inability to "stay in the present." I know that I posted on that in a previous thread (yay PistolShrimp!) already, but might have a little more to add.

Anecdotal:

Often I feel that I am quite slipping into other physical places I've been rather than enjoying the place where I am now, and I wonder if this is true for other SEI E4's.

For instance, this summer I've at various times felt like I was in Missouri (I could image the width of the streets and the quality of the light and the air and the apartment I had there), Japan (the density of people on the street and that feeling of moving through the space and also the feeling of...how when the foreignness manifested physically in the form of the adrenaline rush that comes with being totally lost, I would suddenly feel strangely at ease again, b/c that was a physical state that I had come to be so acquainted with and it grounded me in myself), Boston (apartment I housesat, cat, the strange heaviness of that summer plus weird bursts of beauty), China, Belgium, etc etc, and feeling a strong longing to relive those experiences.

Recently I noticed that I would switch very quickly from those nostalgic fantasies to thinking "but the trees are lovely here, and the air is so clean, and there's this amazing structural beauty to the mountains and landscape that has almost a cold clarity to it, and I need to take it all in and store it b/c soon I'll be elsewhere and it'll all be gone!!

What's what's really funny about this is that I always notice enough physical details about a location that I can replicate it perfectly, even though when I'm actually inhabiting or traveling through a place, most of the time I'm just having imaginary conversations in my head.

Logical:

Si and fantasizing are not mutually exclusive. It's very nice to fantasize (even negatively) while inhabiting a comfortable, aesthetic space or engaging in a calming physical activity. My body and my mind are very rarely in the same place, actually.