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joseph
10-21-2005, 02:35 AM
Can someone explain this ?
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INTJs are vulnerable in the emotional area and may make serious mistakes here

cjcoldmine
10-21-2005, 03:23 AM
Like the perpetual scowl-on-the-face to scare off any potential threats?

cjcoldmine
10-21-2005, 03:30 AM
I look people in their eyes if I'm having an interesting conversation with them.

MysticSonic
10-21-2005, 04:04 AM
"or never EVER looking anyone in the eyes (or is that just me?)"

People always complain to me about that.

discojoe
10-21-2005, 04:08 AM
I look people in the eyes when they're talking to me, but when I talk to them I have trouble. Not sure why. Maybe because I BS so much, and I'm afraid they can see it.

Sorry, wrong type.

Joy
10-21-2005, 04:20 AM
My INTj is rather emotionally numb, and used to be even more so (perhaps even entirely). When he was a teenager he had this little "how easily can I break this person?" game, but then he broke the wrong person...

Then he met my sister an saw that he couldn't break her because she was already broken. He decided to try to fix her instead. Problem with that is that you cannot fix a person. People always have to fix themselves, and they don't do it unless they want to. I wanted to her to date him orginally, but when she got engaged I gave up on that idea and decided to keep him for myself.

Pedro, does the INTj do the crushing or is he the one being crushed?

cjcoldmine
10-21-2005, 04:32 AM
Pedro means INTj is the one getting crushed.

cjcoldmine
10-21-2005, 04:38 AM
in this context however i meant they could be crushed. they have to be alive first though.

What do you mean by "being alive?"

cjcoldmine
10-21-2005, 05:20 AM
In this point of my life, I do feel that I am a robot most of the time. Sometimes I do feel slightly depressed because I never get the opportunity to express my emotions with anyone. And I am painfully aware that I'm missing out on so much in the world.

I'm at the point where I would prefer getting emotionally crushed to living a life devoid of any emotions, positive or negative. What I wouldn't give to feel like a human being every once in a while...

Joy
10-21-2005, 05:25 AM
Yeah, it's all about realizing that you can't expect to only experience only pleasant things. So many people are afraid of getting hurt.... well guess what, it's going to happen. There's no way to experience a positvie emotion and still protect yourself from the equivilent negative emotion.

Waddlesworth
10-21-2005, 04:57 PM
DISCLAIMER: The below may make me look like I am an asshole, but you don't know the full story so don't pass judgement on me by what you read. As hot and sexy sweet INTj females are, this particular one made me very angry.
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I just crushed an INTj the other day... she left a mean message on my answering machine and it pissed me off. It was one of those things a person could have and should have worded differently but she knew if she said it that way it would hurt my feelings. I have done this girl alot of favors and her and I had grown quite attached to one another. Because of this the message seemed extrememly harsh and offensive(but in a disguised sort of way). I told her off and then also left a message for her ex-boyfriend telling him some things I thought he should know about her, such as how she had been contemplating cheating on him since april of this year until she broke up with him less than a month ago. I posted evil comments on her livejournals, part of her secure little personal world, you know? The next day all of her livejournals were deleted. I crushed a big part of her. There some choice words I selected deliberately to destroy her confidence because she hurt mine.

they say "an I for an eye" but with me, if someone takes my eye I rip their heart out and shove it up a choice place. But I don't drag it out. What's done is done. She knows she messed with the wrong person. I just hope the emotional damage wasn't too extreme.

Angel von Himmel
10-21-2005, 05:32 PM
My God Waddles, you can be a real asshole ... you tried to do the same thing by crushing my confidence back when you had something out for me for whatever reason, but it did not work.

And how was this INTj girl threatening enough to try to do that shit to her?

By the way, that "crushing the confidence" thing is something ENTps have a tendency to want to do when there is "competition" ... I had another real life ENTp try to do this to me over a girl who liked both of us in college ... it did not work then either, because I always saw past his FLUFF and neutralized him by placing inpedance on him. Typical ENTp BS ...


DISCLAIMER: The below may make me look like I am an asshole, but you don't know the full story so don't pass judgement on me by what you read. As hot and sexy sweet INTj females are, this particular one made me very angry.
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I just crushed an INTj the other day... she left a mean message on my answering machine and it pissed me off. It was one of those things a person could have and should have worded differently but she knew if she said it that way it would hurt my feelings. I have done this girl alot of favors and her and I had grown quite attached to one another. Because of this the message seemed extrememly harsh and offensive(but in a disguised sort of way). I told her off and then also left a message for her ex-boyfriend telling him some things I thought he should know about her, such as how she had been contemplating cheating on him since april of this year until she broke up with him less than a month ago. I posted evil comments on her livejournals, part of her secure little personal world, you know? The next day all of her livejournals were deleted. I crushed a big part of her. There some choice words I selected deliberately to destroy her confidence because she hurt mine.

they say "an I for an eye" but with me, if someone takes my eye I rip their heart out and shove it up a choice place. But I don't drag it out. What's done is done. She knows she messed with the wrong person. I just hope the emotional damage wasn't too extreme.

Waddlesworth
10-21-2005, 07:58 PM
Well, I might seem like an asshole, maybe I am. But hey, at least I'm honest.

But the girl was a real asshole as well, i mean, there are other things I am not saying about her.

And anyone's confidence can be destroyed. This isn't a "Type" thing, it's called being human. If I'm "evil" or an "asshole" its because I have a good reason for it (in my opinion) usually it gets things done or tosses out any unnecessary clutter(certain people) so I can focus on the real point. But I always love a battle, a fight. That's when I feel most alive.

Do I feel guilty? yeah, I do. But when you do as much for someone as I did and were mislead like I was, well, you have to do what you have to do.

Waddlesworth
10-21-2005, 08:01 PM
but no, it didn't really have to do with competition, had more to do with me just not getting what I wanted and worked so hard to get (sex). She knew what I wanted from the start and she knew we were both getting into it for that... then she starts to misdirect the point to other things and avoiding having a mature face to face discussion about her feelings.

cjcoldmine
10-21-2005, 08:26 PM
waddles, what's the point of "working so hard" to have sex with someone? If it's proving to be too difficult or time-consuming, you should find someone who doesn't make it so tedious.

Waddlesworth
10-21-2005, 08:28 PM
yup, you're absolutely right! But I'm ENTp! of course I would do something dumb like that!

Kim
10-21-2005, 09:06 PM
And anyone's confidence can be destroyed. This isn't a "Type" thing, it's called being human. If I'm "evil" or an "asshole" its because I have a good reason for it (in my opinion) usually it gets things done or tosses out any unnecessary clutter(certain people) so I can focus on the real point. But I always love a battle, a fight. That's when I feel most alive.

Do I feel guilty? yeah, I do. But when you do as much for someone as I did and were mislead like I was, well, you have to do what you have to do.

Socionics is a problematic thing when people use it to intentionally hurt other people and mess with their vulnerabilities. yuck.

Angel von Himmel
10-21-2005, 09:16 PM
yup, you're absolutely right! But I'm ENTp! of course I would do something dumb like that!

I can actually relate to this ... I have absolutly no clue how to start a relationship the right way either. ENTps can just have this crappy way of viewing relationships that screws them over in the end. Sad, very very sad.

diamond
10-21-2005, 09:40 PM
DISCLAIMER: The below may make me look like I am an asshole, but you don't know the full story so don't pass judgement on me by what you read. As hot and sexy sweet INTj females are, this particular one made me very angry.
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I just crushed an INTj the other day... she left a mean message on my answering machine and it pissed me off. It was one of those things a person could have and should have worded differently but she knew if she said it that way it would hurt my feelings. I have done this girl alot of favors and her and I had grown quite attached to one another. Because of this the message seemed extrememly harsh and offensive(but in a disguised sort of way). I told her off and then also left a message for her ex-boyfriend telling him some things I thought he should know about her, such as how she had been contemplating cheating on him since april of this year until she broke up with him less than a month ago. I posted evil comments on her livejournals, part of her secure little personal world, you know? The next day all of her livejournals were deleted. I crushed a big part of her. There some choice words I selected deliberately to destroy her confidence because she hurt mine.

they say "an I for an eye" but with me, if someone takes my eye I rip their heart out and shove it up a choice place. But I don't drag it out. What's done is done. She knows she messed with the wrong person. I just hope the emotional damage wasn't too extreme.

Whoa, wads. :shock:

That doesn't sounds like you. Why do you think you reacted so strongly?

Waddlesworth
10-21-2005, 11:02 PM
Whoa, wads. :shock:

That doesn't sounds like you. Why do you think you reacted so strongly?

The only way that I can rationalize it (if I try to do this from an ethical stand-point I'll get lost in a world I can't make sense of) is that I was hurt really bad, plain and simple. I was with someone I thought I could trust, that I thought cared about me enough to tell me the truth...

but see, here is the paradox. Didn't I just want her for sex? or did I feel something else? To this day I have no idea how I felt.

all I knew was to crush ridicule and destroy her because otherwise all the good and nice things I said- all the extra energy I dedicated and spent on her, she would have it all and I'd have nothing of any value. Every nice remark, letter, emotion, all for nothing. I had to cancel it out, I had to ruin her very being in the process. maybe in the wild something like this is a survival mechanism, i don't know. I try to explain the ethics and I will only contradict myself because to me both extremes are true.

Waddlesworth
10-21-2005, 11:10 PM
But yeah, you guys don't know me personally, or what this girl put me through. Anyone that knows me will agree that I almost always mean the best for people. and @ blaze, yeah, most people that know me would say the same thing. "I never would have thought he'd do something like that!"

no one is to blame and no one can blame me for my response, it was just destined to happen. I think that the situation is good for anyone to learn from, i really do. I learned alot from it so perhaps in the future I will write more about it.

Joy
10-22-2005, 12:24 AM
waddles w: perhaps you were into the chase and had decided that sex was the prize, not because of the sex but because there had to be a definitive goal in order to know for sure that you'd reached it.

I know the reason I picked my INTj is because he was the only person I knew who would make me work for what I wanted, which with him, the prize was him saying that he'd be with me. It seemed that any other option worth anything was just too easy.

So...... you took on a challenge and failed. It was a blow to your self-worth. And you had feelings for her too, so you felt rejected on top of not winning the prize. It's insult on injury.

My question is this.... did you ask yourself WHY she did something to hurt you? I've got a hunch that you did something that upset her, and instead of telling you, she decided to hurt you like you had hurt her... and then you mistook her way of telling you that she was hurt for her trying to destroy you and the whole situation escalated.

Yes, her little plan backfired, as did yours. No one won. Perhaps she was offended that sex was the prize and wanted to be appreciated for something else. She was obviously hurting if she had just ended a long term relationship. She was probably having a self-worth and a self-identity issue. Had you ignored her for a few days? Perhaps she missed you and was trying to get your attention? We xNTxs have odd ways of looking for attention...

Yes, INTjs certainly do live in their minds. It is their refuge. She had let you into hers. Sabatoge from the inside is certainly the only way an INTj fortress could fall. You are very important to her.

My guess is that while she was with this guy, she was talking to you and playing that little "flirting" game because she thought she had found someone who really understood and still wanted her. She obviously had feelings for you or she wouldn't have considered cheating, which INTjs find illogical. She felt genuinely appreciated for who she is, something her non-xNTx boyfriend couldn't grasp (am I right?). Perhaps she feared that if she broke up with her boyfriend she would suddenly find that you had lost interest in her, or that her worst fears had been realized... that you only wanted to get laid.

So.... did you fail to give her as much attention after the break up as you did before? Did you assume that the breakup meant that you'd get to have sex with her? Did you push things too fast and offend her when she really just needed a friend fo rhte time being? Perhaps she was in a horrible mood because of the breakup and took it out on you because she thought her friendship with you could withstand a little venting? Or did you act even sweeter, causing her to fear her own feelings? Whatever the case, she was insecure and so were you. That's probably why things exploded.

Ummmm.... I dunno.

Waddlesworth
10-22-2005, 01:07 AM
Joy, VERY good interpretation. Very true in alot of ways.

Yes, I understand the INTj female ways pretty well (not as well as any female understands emotion, though). In many ways you are quite accurate, much of this situation was aggravated by her being with someone and much of it was further aggravated by the fact that we wanted/needed different things. And the namecalling is just a product of irrationality and childishness which was brought on by tension from alot of angles and so forth.

But when you are IN the situation you can't look at it through rational eyes, that's the worst part. Especially when you naturally can't handle a situation like that in the first place.

It started with us admitting a sexual attraction, keep that in mind.

But I'll tell you the basic just of what happened in the end. The girl invites me to her dorm a few weeks back to visit her. Now she knows I have feelings for her, and she knows I am going up there with the assumption that she has feelings for me, flat out. So I go to Cortland NY, which was like a 5 hour drive or something, just to see her. We both told eachother how much we missed one another, how much we wanted to see one another, etc... etc...

Basically it was an "we like one another although we are unsure of where it is going" sort of thing. We did so many things together. We were writing a story together, we would draw together, make comics. it was a great friendship and I shared alot of things with her.

So I get there and she makes me take her and her roomates to this diner, which was alright, cool, got to meet her roommate and stuff, whatever. But the whole way through she has this cold attitude for me, don't know why, don't understand it, and it's pissing me off. Eventually the night passes on and we do nothing but sit in her dorm room until she decides to go see a movie with me. We go, and during it I move to hold her hand because we had been doing that before she left, and I assumed maybe she was just shy or a little uncomfortable(deep down I knew she just didn't like me anymore). So I grab her hand and its lifeless, cold, uninterested. So I just let it go, sorta lightly throwing it back at her in a way which can only say "well, go fuck yourself".

We leave the movie and I pretend like that incident didn't happen. We were still talking like usual, but it was notably cold(like any mirror relationship can be) and I just sort of went with it. We go back to her dorm and she wants to write the story with me, but she has to get ready for bed. She is doing that and I lay on the floor on the sleeping bag she layed out for me and I say "so, what are you thinking about?" It was pretty clear I was saying "what the hell are you doing to me here?" she brings up something completely unrelated to me, typical of INTj's, such as "i am wondering why my CD player is..." whatever. So I just lay there and start getting pissed. I realized she was going to avoid discussing "us" like she always had, and just preoccupy herself with herself and pretend like I live next door or something.

We write in the little story, blah blah blah, and I get to talking to her. She lays and bed, I sit at the other end. I started talking to her about how important she is to me and how much I care about her and stuff. I say how beautiful I think she is and she just goes "thanks" or "yeah, I know" or something. No feedback, no nice remarks, just calculated insults. and she just goes to sleep at like midnight. So I'm sitting there like an idiot and eventually decide to go to sleep. Her roommate and the girl next door come back just as i turn the lights out. They clearly were like "what?" they expected to see us making out, which I expected to be doing as well. We werent though, i was just kneeling on the floor about to get into my sleeping bag.

I couldn't sleep at that point so I spend the night with the two of them and they get to talking about the girl I went to visit. Apparently she, who doesn't drink, brought some drunk guy into the room and made out with him the night before. This all took me by surprise because this girl wouldn't even touch me. I was hurt and also concerned.

I talk with them till 3am and had fun. I was pissed and hurt though, because I drove five hours to visit her, was watching her pet rat for her, and had basically spent an hour telling her how important I thought she was to me. So I left the next day pretty early, didn't even get to brush my teeth. I sorta told her I knew what was up and wanted and explanation but she treated me like I was prying into her personal business, which I wasn't, Im sure. I give her a careful kiss good bye(paranoid about my breath) and leave. turned out i got a parking ticket, a spot she suggested i park in. bad omen.

We get in an argument over the phone, a couple of weeks later she picks her rat up and a couple days after that she leaves this message telling me that out of all the guys she has ever kissed I was the worst(we had "made out" if you want to call it that, in a parking garage because before she left she started acting like she didn't want to be alone with me anymore... then she got warmed up again over the telephone). obviously people warm up differently and I don't think I am a bad kisser(she just sat there all cold like she'll always be). but basically it still crushed my confidence in myself. I have never felt like "that guy" who the girl just amuses herself with. I never thought I was the guy that is "the friend who can never make it in". She never really gave me that impression... well, at least she never said it flat out.

But anyway, that's when I launched my counter-offensive.

Shit, I got to go to work. I left some out, but you get the point.

Basically, I should have left when I had the chance.

Joy
10-22-2005, 02:28 AM
hmmmmmmm this girl ought to date an ExFx. There's a song I'm reminded of....



Vertical Horizon
Everything You Want

Somewhere there's speaking
It's already coming in
Oh, and it's rising at the back of your mind

You never could get it
Unless you were fed it
Now you're here and you don't know why

But under skinned knees
And the skid marks
Past the places where you used to learn

You howl and listen
Listen and wait for the
Echoes of angels who won't return

He's everything you want
He's everything you need
He's everything inside of you
That you wish you could be
He says all the right things
At exactly the right time
But he means nothing to you
And you don't know why

You're waiting for someone
To put you together
You're waiting for someone to push you away

There's always another
Wound to discover
There's always something more you wish he'd say

He's everything you want
He's everything you need
He's everything inside of you
That you wish you could be
He says all the right things
At exactly the right time
But he means nothing to you
And you don't know why

But you'll just sit tight
And watch it unwind
It's only what you're asking for
And you'll be just fine
With all of your time
It's only what you're waiting for

Out of the island
Into the highway
Past the places where you might have turned

You never did notice
But you still hide away
The anger of angels who won't return

He's everything you want
He's everything you need
He's everything inside of you
That you wish you could be
He says all the right things
At exactly the right time
But he means nothing to you
And you don't know why

I am everything you want
I am everything you need
I am everything inside of you
That you wish you could be
I say all the right things
At exactly the right time
But I mean nothing to you
And I don't know why

And I don't know
Why
Why

And I don't know

She is hurting. She made out with the drunk idiot becuse there was no risk involved, no emotional invlolvement. She was lonely and found a warm body.

I'm not saying that she's evil, just that she's not ready. She sounds like she's more effort than she's worth. Cut your losses and move on. Cmon, you're an ENTp... there has to be another worthy challenge in the midst. Go for an IxFx this time!

Be angry, be sad, be whatever, but be those things in the part of your mind that does not direct your actions... Always consider as many perspectives on a situation as possible before acting. AND ALWAYS remember that unnecessary hostility=insecurity.

diamond
10-22-2005, 09:46 AM
Evil love tactics is what I call her actions (and yours BTW). Sure, she's hurting so she's going to try to get you.

And you got her back. What a nice little memory you both have now. :8*

Maybe better, though, than talking about your feelings with someone who's been vindictive towards you. I mean what are you really going to do with someone like that? Where's the feelings discussion going to get ya?

I usually want to retaliate when someone gets me. It's like a self respect thing. I'm never sure about all the feelings I have about myself after I retaliate though and whether it's worth it or not.

Waddlesworth
10-22-2005, 11:48 AM
Oh, I have learned now to give it up. It was a situation I knew from the start would be a disaster. An INFp friend of mine said to me that she always seemed more like a conquest than a love interest. I'd say I agree.

Revenge worth it? I'm not sure. It was all bound to be, it happens, its sucks, it hurts. What's sad is all we shared together means nothing now and that she never had the guts to put her feelings down plain and simple. she just dragged it out with indecision and wound up driving me off the wall. I'm glad I said the things that I did to her because if I didn't I wouldn't be able to sleep at night(or during the day with my new job, for that matter).

She could have just said it was a matter of bad chemistry... I would have agreed. Instead she had to break me down, make me insecure, and make me have to say some of the worst things I have ever said to another human being in my life. I seriously have never been so mean.

But god, I still can't get over how far I drove to see her and how much of a waste of time it was...

God, wady, get over it! it never meant anything anyway, you know that! It's the pride I can't let go of.

But I'm so interested in socionics I should have foreseen this. I did. I knew it would happen, i even said it to her. "i think its going ot end with me crushing you" I said it jokingly one day but deep down I knew it. I have a long history of doing it.

And of course its about insecurity. If my mind were a fortess the ethics would be its soft spot.

Waddlesworth
10-22-2005, 11:50 AM
oh, @ Rmcnew- I said some of those meaner things to you the night it all happened, not that its any excuse, but I was in a bad mood.

So it HER fault! :shock:

j/k

Joy
10-22-2005, 12:55 PM
hmmmmmmm

Take some responsibility. Perhaps the scenario was set for things to fall into place the way that they did (and we can even ignore that you're the one who set them up that way for a moment), but that didn't mean that you HAD to do the things you did in the end. I understand that you were hurt, but good grief, you're the one that chose someone who was taken as your prize. What did this girl do initially to make it okay in your mind to mess with her life like you did? You say you knew that things would up up a mess. Now her boyfriend is gone and she's lost a valued friend, too (you).

But what's done is done. The important thing about mistakes is to learn as much as you can from them. So what have you learned from all of this (other than that you should resist the temptation to go for those hot INTjs... trust me, I know what you mean about the hotness thing... there's something about a good challenge that just draws me right in.....)?

Joy
10-22-2005, 01:28 PM
It sounds to me like this whole thing was all about you testing your power to manipulate your environment. As an ENTp I pride myself on having unusual insight into, and therefore power over, the dynamics of my environment. I can see how I could have done something like what you described if I didn't have such an overwhelming sense of fairness and kindness. (I lean only slightly to the T side of the T/F dimension... not that I've never done anything to get back at anyone before... but when the tears start falling it makes me feel like a monster.) You really ought to do some soul searching before you get involved with anyone else. You know damn well that you have all the power over people that you could wish for. With great power comes great responibility, so stop bullying the people around you. Until you have created the self-worth you need in order to be in a healthy relationship, I recommend staying uninvolved. Security and happiness are internal things. No relationship can take away loneliness or provide contentment. A relationship can only be as healthy as the least healthy person in it.

I don't think you'll misuderstand these last two posts... but just in case I want to say that I'm not trying to be a bitch or be AT ALL condescending. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I feel I have an excellent grasp of the situation you're finding yourself in, and the things that I'm saying in a scolding manner are only intended to help you unknot this situation in your mind. And I mean what I said about bullying... my son is VERY clever and VERY energetic and VERY physically strong for his age. I do my very best to impart on him that it is important to be kind to those who are weaker than he is. This could mean standing up for the shy kid who's getting picked on, helping a timid child feel brave enough to try a ride on the tire swing and enjoy herself, or carrying something for someone who is struggling with it's size/weight. What I'm telling you is essentially the same thing. Quit pushing the weaker kids off the slide! =)

Joy
10-22-2005, 01:46 PM
hmmmmmm maybe this should all have been put in a thread about ENTp relationships... I'm thinking of starting one....

Waddlesworth
10-22-2005, 09:16 PM
Joy, you think I won't understand? No, I do understand every word you're saying, it all makes sense, I appreciate the time you took in it and Balze, I also appreciate your thought(that song is something I have thought of when thinking of this girl).

But yeah, I did set the stage. It started innocently, with me just trying to get the girl's attention. I thought I failed miserably, but it turned out she was really into me. When I think back I can only wonder how much of an impact I have had on her life, probably a big one. My thoughts, ideas, impressions, they all sorta sunk in and then I had to add the harsh words to tear her apart. I must have messed her up pretty bad.

Waddlesworth
10-22-2005, 09:43 PM
So, should I apologize to her? or should I just drop it?

XcaliburGirl
10-22-2005, 09:50 PM
IMHO, I'd say yeah, apologize, but make it as short and simple as possible. No excuses, no opening up cans of worms or old wounds, no false hopes. Make it quick so the awkwardness can be over as soon as possible and then leave it be.

Joy
10-22-2005, 09:55 PM
Yes, apologize. I don't anticipate she'll be happy to hear from you, but I think it's important to tell her that she was/is a valued friend and you're sorry you where mean.

10-23-2005, 09:10 PM
I think that you were a bit harsh on her. She might have been in a bad mood, and was probably a bit embarrassed when you were complementing her. When you got into an argument with her she was most likely searching for something to say. So she said you were a horrible kisser, one of those remarks I tend to make to someone when they really piss me off like your fat, lose weight type of coldness.

IMHO, I'd say yeah, apologize, but make it as short and simple as possible. No excuses, no opening up cans of worms or old wounds, no false hopes. Make it quick so the awkwardness can be over as soon as possible and then leave it be. I agree...

Ms. Kensington
10-26-2005, 08:29 AM
if it were me, an apology would about completely undo the damage.

lack of an apology would leave a wound for a long time.

wonder why INTjs can be crushed so easily..

if I have a row with someone NT i almost always have some understanding why they've offended or acted a certain way, and try to talk with them. and as i said, an apology would allow me to let go completely of bad feelings. i think

diamond
10-26-2005, 12:10 PM
I'd apologize. If it feels right, you might want to be honest with her about your feelings, too. Be assertive! Take responsibility for your part.

She might not be that innocent, either.

Waddlesworth
10-27-2005, 02:00 AM
that's the problem. It seemed like every time I wanted to talk seriously about the issues she would shut up and avoid it. I got so many mixed signals and just bottled them up, eventually I just let it out in the meanest way possible.

When someone doesn't give you a clear answer, leads you on and makes you think you have a special part in their life, i guess its enough to provoke an emtionally unstable person such as myself into saying regrettable things.

I seriously have been contemplating saying sorry, but I think she owes me a more proper and descriptive explanation of her feelings, or at least a kinder one. she never gave me that. she never was able to talk about things and it really is what drew the situation out and caused so much tension(from my perspective) I guess I should have walked out early, but I didn't. I still consider her important to me, but I can't undue what I said and since she can't express her feelings to me I am surely not going to say sorry only to have her hang up the phone and laugh at me.

maybe I really am THAT bad at kissing. my guess is its just a chemistry thing, i mean, seriously, she wasn't good either. still gets to me though. :(

Kim
10-27-2005, 02:07 AM
maybe I really am THAT bad at kissing. my guess is its just a chemistry thing, i mean, seriously, she wasn't good either. still gets to me though. :(

It IS a chemistry thing. Don't even worry about it.

Ms. Kensington
10-27-2005, 07:37 PM
haha its not like telling someone they are a bad kisser in a mean way if they really are a bad kisser is like, totally ok.

seriously, i dont think apologizing has anything to do with how the other person has acted towards you. I have to apologize for my part in things, most times. If they laugh at me they can fuck off

Though, this hasn't really served me well. An ENT types tell me, "it must be exhausting being you" for this reason.

mike_INTJ
11-02-2005, 10:06 PM
Can someone explain this ?
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INTJs are vulnerable in the emotional area and may make serious mistakes here

it means that emotions aren't rational, we can't justify them, can't explain them. they build up over a long period, until there so deep you could drown in them.

we are logical. really the best way to describe it is to watch star trek when vulcan's cry.

mike_INTJ
11-02-2005, 10:13 PM
DISCLAIMER: The below may make me look like I am an asshole, but you don't know the full story so don't pass judgement on me by what you read. As hot and sexy sweet INTj females are, this particular one made me very angry.
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I just crushed an INTj the other day... she left a mean message on my answering machine and it pissed me off. It was one of those things a person could have and should have worded differently but she knew if she said it that way it would hurt my feelings. I have done this girl alot of favors and her and I had grown quite attached to one another. Because of this the message seemed extrememly harsh and offensive(but in a disguised sort of way). I told her off and then also left a message for her ex-boyfriend telling him some things I thought he should know about her, such as how she had been contemplating cheating on him since april of this year until she broke up with him less than a month ago. I posted evil comments on her livejournals, part of her secure little personal world, you know? The next day all of her livejournals were deleted. I crushed a big part of her. There some choice words I selected deliberately to destroy her confidence because she hurt mine.

they say "an I for an eye" but with me, if someone takes my eye I rip their heart out and shove it up a choice place. But I don't drag it out. What's done is done. She knows she messed with the wrong person. I just hope the emotional damage wasn't too extreme.

i'll have to consider you a jerk. don't know what she said, or what you thought the favors actually were. but to put anyone into a depression because someone insulted you is very childish. how would you feel if she commited suicide because of what you did?

further, if you make us mad, we have the means to make your life a living hell. we can out think you, and out do you. it all depends if she transfers what you did to anger or sadness.

mike_INTJ
11-02-2005, 10:19 PM
Well, I might seem like an asshole, maybe I am. But hey, at least I'm honest.

But the girl was a real asshole as well, i mean, there are other things I am not saying about her.

And anyone's confidence can be destroyed. This isn't a "Type" thing, it's called being human. If I'm "evil" or an "asshole" its because I have a good reason for it (in my opinion) usually it gets things done or tosses out any unnecessary clutter(certain people) so I can focus on the real point. But I always love a battle, a fight. That's when I feel most alive.

Do I feel guilty? yeah, I do. But when you do as much for someone as I did and were mislead like I was, well, you have to do what you have to do.

clearly your repressing something. no one has the right to be a jerk. no one has a reason to be a jerk. all i can assume is she said something about you that was the truth about you. and you couldn't face hearing it, or hearing it from someone who figured it out. getting even is the wrong thing to do. deal with your own problems. because you don't want to see us angry. we don't get back at people physically, we tend to destroy mentally.

i am curious as to what you did for her. you seem to think it was something big. did she ask? it's odd that she would ask for anything, we tend to keep to ourselves, we don't need help from others unless it's really major.

"you have to do what you have to do" - that's what's destroying society. say a mean word back. you acted like a big baby.

mike_INTJ
11-02-2005, 10:23 PM
[quote="waddles"]but no, it didn't really have to do with competition, had more to do with me just not getting what I wanted and worked so hard to get (sex).


there you go. you went for the wrong thing. you gave her "favors", because you thought you were going to get laid. however, we don't work that way, it's not a priority. your using her for her body only. she wants you to use her for her mind.


She knew what I wanted from the start and she knew we were both getting into it for that... then she starts to misdirect the point to other things and avoiding having a mature face to face discussion about her feelings.

are you sure? I's are very cautious, we don't assume anything. you assumed it was about sex. she may have wanted a relationship. not many people talk to us, we can be lonely. it's hopeful that someone will like us, for us. but you wanted sex, and unless you actually stated you wanted her in that way, you were in the wrong. and you make all the other guy's look like jerks too. doesn't sound like you care anything at all about her feelings.

mike_INTJ
11-02-2005, 11:30 PM
But I'll tell you the basic just of what happened in the end. The girl invites me to her dorm a few weeks back to visit her. Now she knows I have feelings for her, and she knows I am going up there with the assumption that she has feelings for me, flat out. So I go to Cortland NY, which was like a 5 hour drive or something, just to see her. We both told eachother how much we missed one another, how much we wanted to see one another, etc... etc...

we don't like emotions, they are very deep. she might not have been comfortable with her roommate there. a sort of saving face thing, the roommate may want to pry. we don't like that.



So I get there and she makes me take her and her roomates to this diner, which was alright, cool, got to meet her roommate and stuff, whatever. But the whole way through she has this cold attitude for me, don't know why, don't understand it, and it's pissing me off.


an E type person is bouncy and emotionally talkative. INTJ's - are not, we simply aren't. she is enjoying your presence, you are there with her, that's saying a lot. she like all INTJ's is reading your emotional state by hearing your voice, hearing your words, and reading your face. you may not be emotiing in a positive way, as sex seems to be the only thing on your mind.



So I grab her hand and its lifeless, cold, uninterested. So I just let it go, sorta lightly throwing it back at her in a way which can only say "well, go fuck yourself".

if you love her, then it won't matter. saying "go fuck yourself", shows you don't respect her. she may not know how to be touched. we aren't touchy feely. some might enjoy some contact, she may not have known what to do in that sitution so she froze. you took it as rejection, she took it as rejection that you threw her hand down. your sending mixed messages.




We leave the movie and I pretend like that incident didn't happen. We were still talking like usual, but it was notably cold(like any mirror relationship can be) and I just sort of went with it. We go back to her dorm and she wants to write the story with me, but she has to get ready for bed. She is doing that and I lay on the floor on the sleeping bag she layed out for me and I say "so, what are you thinking about?" It was pretty clear I was saying "what the hell are you doing to me here?" she brings up something completely unrelated to me, typical of INTj's, such as "i am wondering why my CD player is..." whatever. So I just lay there and start getting pissed. I realized she was going to avoid discussing "us" like she always had, and just preoccupy herself with herself and pretend like I live next door or something.

she is having a relationship with out. a night out doesn't mean sex. a few dates doesn't mean sex. she set up a bag on the floor of you. she was looking out for you, she didn't want you to catch a chill on the cold floor. we approach stuff like this very carefully. we choose slowly. since you keep sending out mixed messages, her emotions about you will vary. words alone are not enough to convince her.



We write in the little story, blah blah blah, and I get to talking to her.

blah, blah blah? you don't enjoy writing stories? she can see it on your face. she's testing your tru intentions.


She lays and bed, I sit at the other end. I started talking to her about how important she is to me and how much I care about her and stuff. I say how beautiful I think she is and she just goes "thanks" or "yeah, I know" or something.

this quality drives people insane. if we think we are nice looking, then we already know. but ideally we want to know exactly why you think the way you do. do you really like her eyes? her hair? what?


No feedback, no nice remarks, just calculated insults.

how was that an insult? i say the same things when someone compliments me as well. i already know it's good, but it's not good enough. and it can be better. without specifying exactly what you meant, it doesn't help her know what you are looking at.


and she just goes to sleep at like midnight. So I'm sitting there like an idiot and eventually decide to go to sleep. Her roommate and the girl next door come back just as i turn the lights out. They clearly were like "what?" they expected to see us making out, which I expected to be doing as well. We werent though, i was just kneeling on the floor about to get into my sleeping bag.

her roommate and you are E's. she isn't ready to "sleep" with you yet, but she feels safe near you. be glad you got that far.


I talk with them till 3am and had fun. I was pissed and hurt though, because I drove five hours to visit her, was watching her pet rat for her, and had basically spent an hour telling her how important I thought she was to me. So I left the next day pretty early, didn't even get to brush my teeth. I sorta told her I knew what was up and wanted and explanation but she treated me like I was prying into her personal business, which I wasn't, Im sure. I give her a careful kiss good bye(paranoid about my breath) and leave. turned out i got a parking ticket, a spot she suggested i park in. bad omen.

so to sum it up, you expected sex. you did what you did so you can get sex from her. the favors that you consider big was to get sex only?




that out of all the guys she has ever kissed I was the worst(we had "made out" if you want to call it that, in a parking garage because before she left she started acting like she didn't want to be alone with me anymore... then she got warmed up again over the telephone). obviously people warm up differently and I don't think I am a bad kisser(she just sat there all cold like she'll always be). but basically it still crushed my confidence in myself. I have never felt like "that guy" who the girl just amuses herself with. I never thought I was the guy that is "the friend who can never make it in". She never really gave me that impression... well, at least she never said it flat out.


ever stop to think that you may actually be a bad kisser? however on the other hand, she might be sarcastic, as we usually are. you may have heard it wrong. we like to argue, it's fun - but it also brings out the worst in people. it brings out their true self.


so to sum up - you wanted sex, she wanted a relationship. you went along with whatever she had, so you can get what you wanted.

this is what's going on her mind. someone is friendly toward her, her susipicion is raised. she decides to ignore her intuition and be with you. you go along with everything. all the while, she is analyzing you, what you do, how your react to her and others. she's paying attention to who you talk to, how you speak to others, who you look at, how you look at her, if your paying attention to her, if you understand her, etc. basically you entered a ring of trust, but not total trust, as her intuition told her that you are hiding something. you are after a different goal. you were after the shy little girl, let's see if i can work my magic and get into her pants. she saw right though you.

once she decided that you were using her all along, then she cut the cord. we can do that you know. if you play her emotions, we will snap, cut you off, tell you off, etc. you didn' t have much right to be mad - you were using her. and the result of your action won't count for much now that i know the story. she'll either ignore you totally. or has already started a detailed plan for a counter attack.

mike_INTJ
11-02-2005, 11:39 PM
So, should I apologize to her? or should I just drop it?

you can try to apologize, but i doubt it would work. when we see someone approach we set up a list of probabilites. what does this person want? a list is formed, of possibilities. she already had you pegged, but went along to see if she was right. the list goes up and down depending on how you act.

if you say you were sorry, she may have already set up that possibility and will already have a line setup in advance. further she will keep her original suspicions about you, and still won't let you into her secret cave of wonders

you broke her trust, that's the worst thing. whatever you say now, it will not stick, she will not believe you.

mike_INTJ
11-02-2005, 11:46 PM
if it were me, an apology would about completely undo the damage.

lack of an apology would leave a wound for a long time.

wonder why INTjs can be crushed so easily..

if I have a row with someone NT i almost always have some understanding why they've offended or acted a certain way, and try to talk with them. and as i said, an apology would allow me to let go completely of bad feelings. i think

let me see if i can figure out a way to explain. as a whole, we don't trust people. it takes a really long time of knowing us (years), to really know us, and for us to trust you.

we aren't hurt from logical stand point, because in our minds your wrong and we are right and it's as simple as that.

however emotionally, we hide everything. the emotions aren't surface level like they are in many E's, they run very deeply. if someone were to say "i love you" - do they really mean it? do they feel anything when they say it? rarily. it's said because it's expected. however for us, there needs to be a good reason to love. and we must feel it deeply.

so when someone plays with our emotions for their gain - we resent it. someone did that to me once, claiming this and that. i gave in, i trusted her, finally her friends came forward to tell me that she is married, and that was that. the flirting, i love you's, etc - were just to see how close she could get. she had no intention. i let my guard down for the wrong person, she pretended to be jealous and chased away potential mates. i don't forgive her, and i never will. she might have damaged my future in a small way.

11-02-2005, 11:59 PM
i think anyone can forgive anyone.

Im pretty sure i am INTj btw

and i've thought id die of a broken heart-- not too long ago.

hehehe i think he was entp, too :P