IEI Extroverted Thinking Te Polr (INFp)

[dot]

Im talking like, hammering nails. Golf, ice skating, driving cars. Cooking food. Etc. IEI are good at things like that.

Food 50/50 I sometimes cook shit that tastes like I wanna poison myself or it turns out decent (my other IEI friend seems to be better at it.. she is sp-secondary and I am sp-last though).
Hammering nails: well that is something everyone should be able to do.. I probably cannot build big things though.. hammering nails as in hanging pictures on the wall: easy for anyone I guess lol.
Golf? I don't play golf, I cannot ice skate but I can drive a car, but I either drive slow like a grandma or I drive so fast my parents get scared, haha. I can be anxious about physical things.
I haven't met any IEIs who were excellent at the things you mentioned.. but yeah I guess we can do them decently like most people. These aren't the things I meant though.. oh and I suck at sports, got better though after I left school and started to hit the gym.

[darya]

Im talking like, hammering nails. Golf, ice skating, driving cars. Cooking food. Etc. IEI are good at things like that.

These are weird things to point out for IEI to be good at. Many other types are much better at them.

[Tigerfadder]

Food 50/50 I sometimes cook shit that tastes like I wanna poison myself or it turns out decent (my other IEI friend seems to be better at it.. she is sp-secondary and I am sp-last though).
Hammering nails: well that is something everyone should be able to do.. I probably cannot build big things though.. hammering nails as in hanging pictures on the wall: easy for anyone I guess lol.
Golf? I don't play golf, I cannot ice skate but I can drive a car, but I either drive slow like a grandma or I drive so fast my parents get scared, haha. I can be anxious about physical things.
I haven't met any IEIs who were excellent at the things you mentioned.. but yeah I guess we can do them decently like most people. These aren't the things I meant though.. oh and I suck at sports, got better though after I left school and started to hit the gym.

Hm ya, but driving cars could be gender motivation. For example male usually have higher pressure from peers and social circle to drive and make driving licence quick then female. Can I ask, are you male or female?

[The Reality Denialist]

I do not think IEI suck at practical stuff. ILE, IEE sure. They seem like they are slipping on everything. But IEI and even ILI are very down to earth people yet intuitive ofc.

Well, it might look like I'm all over the place and I am.
When it comes to doing it I usually fare well even though it looks like a disaster. I have objective scientific data to back this up. Heard similar things from others. Then from nowhere I come up with solutions in places where so called practical people never see it. I can assemble computers and stuff (had bit of hesitance first) but tinkering with fine electronical components... Practice teaches? I can design rough stuff and probably (roughly) build it.

My IEI sister is incredibly lazy. Her laziness makes her incredibly impractical. She can be smart but she is educationally stuck. She writes books and poems for herself. She is vocationally trained as result (even that took few extra years) and struggles with motivation. She pretty much failed in most of places due to motivational carelessness.

[dot]

Hm ya, but driving cars could be gender motivation. For example male usually have higher pressure from peers and social circle to drive and make driving licence quick then female. Can I ask, are you male or female?

Uhm this isn't about how fast someone gets the license but how good they are at it and I noticed most types are better at it than IEIs. Especially Se doms.

[FDG]

I find IEIs to be "surprisingly" bad at some practical stuff. Like I would automatically assume they can do it (my amount of tells me they should be OK with it), but then they suddenly don´t. ESIs too, sometimes, they completely suck at dealing with some basic electronic devices even though they may be able to perfectly solve complicated maths problems in a very precise way (with way more patience than me).

[Olimpia]

It looks like many people on this forum assume that all weak Te is Te PoLR.

Both Te PoLR and Te Seeking have identical issues, actually.
Both their Te is 1D, weak. So, they are both going to suck at Te equally.
Particularly xEI-Fe and ExI-Fi are going to suck at Te.

Many assume that valuing an IE means that that IE is going to be stronger and more obvious, but this is false.
Because their main program is Fi, which is opposed to using Te (you cannot use Te when you are using Fi at the same time), ExI-Fi individuals can have just as bad Te as a Te PoLR person, if not worse.
In both cases, the person won't use Te much and require help in that area. Both EII and IEI will be the most "impractical" types in the Socion, for both their Te and Se is weak.

The only way to truly gauge whether someone is Te PoLR or Te Seeking is, besides gauging whether they value Te or not (which can be tricky, because their Te is rather unconscious and weak), is to see whether they value Ti or not.
At least that is how I can tell the difference. Te seeking types may accept Ti from a Ti lead to some extent, but generally they do not care for it. On a superficial level, their Ti Role will be used, but there is no deeper personal investment. Whereas with Ti HA, there will be a much more obvious investment in Ti, which is connected to Te PoLR. If you care about Ti, you don't care about Te.

Anyhow, like others before me I could mention the ways in which my weak Te manifests itself, but that wouldn't really be any different from Te Seeking problems.

The one example that might be able to show the difference, is my aversion to unfamiliar, large bodies of information, especially if they contradict a theoretical system I deem to be true and making logical sense. My first impulse is to reject such information. I also do not care for "authorities" of certain information; as in, for me the information or theory behind something is of more significance than whether it is factually "backed up" by science or any kind of authority. When something makes logical sense to me, I am more inclined to believe it than if someone showed me a poll or study of something that is supposed to be "factually correct", especially if said poll or study opposes my logical system of thought. Simply, it is theory > facts for me. Just because someone has more "experience" than me, doesn't mean that they have to be "right" on a particular issue. Whether something is true or correct or not depends on logic, and not on whether someone is considered more "qualified" to know said information. I always question and analyze the validity of someone's ideas, and again, if they do not fit into a particular system or contradict certain information or systems, I am quick to ignore them, no matter how "qualified" or "knowledgable" they are supposed to be. You may call it arrogance, but I feel like it is up to me to decide whether something is "true" or not, not any kind of authority or "facts". Etc etc.

[dot]

It looks like many people on this forum assume that all weak Te is Te PoLR.

Both Te PoLR and Te Seeking have identical issues, actually.
Both their Te is 1D, weak. So, they are both going to suck at Te equally.
Particularly xEI-Fe and ExI-Fi are going to suck at Te.

Many assume that valuing an IE means that that IE is going to be stronger and more obvious, but this is false.
Because their main program is Fi, which is opposed to using Te (you cannot use Te when you are using Fi at the same time), ExI-Fi individuals can have just as bad Te as a Te PoLR person, if not worse.
In both cases, the person won't use Te much and require help in that area. Both EII and IEI will be the most "impractical" types in the Socion, for both their Te and Se is weak.

The only way to truly gauge whether someone is Te PoLR or Te Seeking is, besides gauging whether they value Te or not (which can be tricky, because their Te is rather unconscious and weak), is to see whether they value Ti or not.
At least that is how I can tell the difference. Te seeking types may accept Ti from a Ti lead to some extent, but generally they do not care for it. On a superficial level, their Ti Role will be used, but there is no deeper personal investment. Whereas with Ti HA, there will be a much more obvious investment in Ti, which is connected to Te PoLR. If you care about Ti, you don't care about Te.

Anyhow, like others before me I could mention the ways in which my weak Te manifests itself, but that wouldn't really be any different from Te Seeking problems.

The one example that might be able to show the difference, is my aversion to unfamiliar, large bodies of information, especially if they contradict a theoretical system I deem to be true and making logical sense. My first impulse is to reject such information. I also do not care for "authorities" of certain information; as in, for me the information or theory behind something is of more significance than whether it is factually "backed up" by science or any kind of authority. When something makes logical sense to me, I am more inclined to believe it than if someone showed me a poll or study of something that is supposed to be "factually correct", especially if said poll or study opposes my logical system of thought. Simply, it is theory > facts for me. Just because someone has more "experience" than me, doesn't mean that they have to be "right" on a particular issue. Whether something is true or correct or not depends on logic, and not on whether someone is considered more "qualified" to know said information. I always question and analyze the validity of someone's ideas, and again, if they do not fit into a particular system or contradict certain information or systems, I am quick to ignore them, no matter how "qualified" or "knowledgable" they are supposed to be. You may call it arrogance, but I feel like it is up to me to decide whether something is "true" or not, not any kind of authority or "facts". Etc etc.

I agree with certain parts you mentioned, but actually if someone is a professional about a certain topic and really knows what they are talking about, then I will most likely listen to them, because I just do not know as much about a topic as they do (like if I do not feel certain about things)
But if people intentionally try to convince me my way of thinking is wrong or try to pressure me (especially about some topics where they themselves cannot really explain things to me or prove them step by step) then I am much more stubborn about my way of thinking.
But I wouldn't phrase it the way "it is up to me if something is true" I hold no power over real truth (I mean truth can differ from whatever angle you watch it) but the sky is blue and I cannot deny it. I can only decide though the way things make sense to myself. I had tons of discussions with people as a child and it seemed to annoy especially adults because most people are like "it's a fact.. accept it", but they never really explained the things in a way that made sense or went into detail with it, made me understad with real life facts etc. I think that would be much more convincing to me. Also the amount of time people thought about things can be convincing to me. I believe my ILI friend a lot and I love to listen to him because I know that he really thinks about things in detail and thoroughly. Sometimes admitting being wrong can almost physically hurt me, lol.
I don't know about the large bodies of information part, yes completely new topics and lots of stuff to read about it will take me a while to learn about them.. but I actually can store lots of knowledge in my memory. I think understanding new topics and memorising them is something everyone can struggle with?

[Tigerfadder]

Last word from me is that Te is Efficient not practical. IEI is a very skillful type.

[darya]

It looks like many people on this forum assume that all weak Te is Te PoLR.

Both Te PoLR and Te Seeking have identical issues, actually.
Both their Te is 1D, weak. So, they are both going to suck at Te equally.
Particularly xEI-Fe and ExI-Fi are going to suck at Te.

Many assume that valuing an IE means that that IE is going to be stronger and more obvious, but this is false.
Because their main program is Fi, which is opposed to using Te (you cannot use Te when you are using Fi at the same time), ExI-Fi individuals can have just as bad Te as a Te PoLR person, if not worse.
In both cases, the person won't use Te much and require help in that area. Both EII and IEI will be the most "impractical" types in the Socion, for both their Te and Se is weak.

The only way to truly gauge whether someone is Te PoLR or Te Seeking is, besides gauging whether they value Te or not (which can be tricky, because their Te is rather unconscious and weak), is to see whether they value Ti or not.
At least that is how I can tell the difference. Te seeking types may accept Ti from a Ti lead to some extent, but generally they do not care for it. On a superficial level, their Ti Role will be used, but there is no deeper personal investment. Whereas with Ti HA, there will be a much more obvious investment in Ti, which is connected to Te PoLR. If you care about Ti, you don't care about Te.

Anyhow, like others before me I could mention the ways in which my weak Te manifests itself, but that wouldn't really be any different from Te Seeking problems.

The one example that might be able to show the difference, is my aversion to unfamiliar, large bodies of information, especially if they contradict a theoretical system I deem to be true and making logical sense. My first impulse is to reject such information. I also do not care for "authorities" of certain information; as in, for me the information or theory behind something is of more significance than whether it is factually "backed up" by science or any kind of authority. When something makes logical sense to me, I am more inclined to believe it than if someone showed me a poll or study of something that is supposed to be "factually correct", especially if said poll or study opposes my logical system of thought. Simply, it is theory > facts for me. Just because someone has more "experience" than me, doesn't mean that they have to be "right" on a particular issue. Whether something is true or correct or not depends on logic, and not on whether someone is considered more "qualified" to know said information. I always question and analyze the validity of someone's ideas, and again, if they do not fit into a particular system or contradict certain information or systems, I am quick to ignore them, no matter how "qualified" or "knowledgable" they are supposed to be. You may call it arrogance, but I feel like it is up to me to decide whether something is "true" or not, not any kind of authority or "facts". Etc etc.

True, but what has that got to do with simply describing IEI's Te polr? Why are you so hung up on making distinction between your Te polr and Te seeking folks ? It's a really odd (and slightly creepy) obsession of yours, tbh. We have heard this a thousand times from you, how you value Ti and nobody else does and everybody also knows that EII and ESI are bad with Te, but thanks for teaching us.

[Olimpia]

I am not sure if it is Te-polr, but I for example can't stand people who strictly insist on obeying all the rules. I see rules as flexible and I think they depend more on a concrete situations and shouldn't be applied so strictly and generally. I also don't like if someone tries to put such rules on myself and I mostly dislike when I feel like my work or creativity are being limited by them, so I do anything that is in my power to avoid being a part of a too strict and formal setting, where I have to follow everything step by step, because I simply cannot do it. That is why I cannot manage to work in an office, or admistration. Also I often get angry with people who want me to follow their rules, I sort of feel like... I should have an exception, because I am not a part of it.

This sounds like non-valued Ti to me.

My SEE sister has a similar issue with those things. One silly example is how she eats certain foods. For instance, she has the tendency to eat a bit of cookie and leave the rest in the box. My ILE-Ti brother always gets really upset over this, and I used to get upset over it, too. We keep telling her she is supposed to eat the whole cookie. Or she just takes a tiny piece of out the middle of a freshly baked cake. It ruins the "unity" of the cake. We tell her she is supposed to get a proper slice. Sometimes I tell people to get themselves a plate when they are about to eat something without one, because that's how you are supposed to do it, ha.

Generally, Ti PoLR and unvalued Ti seem to have an issue with rules like that. But it is difficult to describe what exactly is non-valued Ti about it...

But yeah, this video reminds me of Ti PoLR, haha.

[darya]

Well I think that following step by step procedures is much likelier with ESI's and EII's than with IEI' but ok. IEI's are the types that do "everything" at the last moment, when time pressures them. And they prefer to do things their own way, as long as they are done in time. That's why they are decisive and irrational.

[Bertrand]

the difference between Te suggestive and Te polr has to do with creative usage. Creative Fe means Te polr, which means creative Fe is not concerned with the "does this make sense" in terms of "logic of actions." i.e. creative Fe fabricates "Fe products" that may in the end be counterproductive in terms of whether or not it actually works against itself or is at all efficient in regards to what it is trying to accomplish. A good example of an Fe product is a lie or absurdity told in order to raise someone's spirits. The utterance may in fact raise their spirits, but what the person really needs, long term, is real self esteem or an answer to their immediate practical problem. Thus merely making the interlocutor "feel better" about something without addressing the underlying issue may actually worsen the consequences down the line. This "illogicality" in terms of goals v actions, is a "failure of Te." It is true, both ESI and SEI may end up behaving in a way where they each "fail" at Te or do something less than perfect in regards to "logic of actions" but the difference is, in principle, Te suggestive tries not to, and is receptive to people venturing ideas and courses of action that include not failing at Te as a core principle. They find Te considerations persuasive. SEI finds Te critique of actions "mean", whereas ESI is convinced of the necessity of such considerations. ESI doesn't tend to give fake compliments, and if they do it tends to be with people they aren't genuinely concerned about but simply want to manipulate. Te and Fi go together, such that in a certain sense Fi is Te: if someone is not worth sincerity then it is ok to "manipulate" them obsequiously, but if you care about them you tell them the truth, (this is why people tend to think Strat has it out for LIE, when all I see is love) this is a Te/Fi way of thinking.

SEI feels that in general Fe is the ultimate answer for everything, such that when they go about producing "Fe products" they, by definition, must exclude Te as a judgement criterion [1]. SEI generally uses Fe to protect itself, it "wraps" a Fe cocoon around itself such that anyone who wants to "move" the SEI has to penetrate it. This is how introverts manage to protect their base function, which is concerned with, especially in the case of Ip, homeostasis and equilibration over time. SEI likes to set things up so that anyone who would tell them what to do or otherwise act "against" them looks like that a big meanie. Especially in the case of Sp/So types this is their primary way of being that they exude automatically. Fi thinks "care" is the "ugly truth" (because it leads to solving problems--Te). SEI thinks of "care" in the sense of improving emotional states, by whatever means necessary, is the answer itself, without concern for logic or time and how they come together to create future consequences--that is the realm of the gamma NTs, their opposites.

SEI doesn't realize that in going about life the way they do they make enemies out of benevolent actors and cut themselves off from constructive advice. When I say Te PoLR is "sad" what I really mean is "tragic" in this way. Many excellent SEIs never go anywhere in life because they're always getting in their own way, but even worse when their influence spreads to the level of policy they tend to bring down entire organizations and groups from within, having a withering rather than nurturing effect on their environment. That is Te polr at its worst--absolute counter productivity

the reason Te polr has a reputation for being bad at "getting shit done" is not because they're incapable of making plans, or executing, in principle, but because they substitute their planning for sweet nothings that obviate the need for more productive ("realistic") planning or action, as a general strategy when confronted with anything (fe creative). this of course tends to lead to going nowhere over time (but making sure to enjoy! the decline)

Te suggestive doesn't do that, instead they tend to work their ass off, because they have a valued albiet low res picture of what needs to get done and they take that very seriously. if they go nowhere its because they're spending too much time busting their ass and aren't lazy enough (in the way balzac is lazy: i.e.: all about efficiency and cost-benefit to the point of extreme conservation of effort)

[1] paradoxically, the more SEI/IEI like you, the less likely they are to tell you the "ugly truth"-- IEIs reputation for "lyricism" is their intuitional ability to finely tune any expression in order to make it palatable--that is their poeticism so to speak; so they're not exactly lying, they work hard to craft "Fe" in order to both tell the truth and make it as "aesthetically pleasing"--to the extent such a thing is possible... and to the degree they succeed they craft real "poetry"

[darya]

I agree with certain parts you mentioned, but actually if someone is a professional about a certain topic and really knows what they are talking about, then I will most likely listen to them, because I just do not know as much about a topic as they do (like if I do not feel certain about things)
But if people intentionally try to convince me my way of thinking is wrong or try to pressure me (especially about some topics where they themselves cannot really explain things to me or prove them step by step) then I am much more stubborn about my way of thinking.
But I wouldn't phrase it the way "it is up to me if something is true" I hold no power over real truth (I mean truth can differ from whatever angle you watch it) but the sky is blue and I cannot deny it. I can only decide though the way things make sense to myself. I had tons of discussions with people as a child and it seemed to annoy especially adults because most people are like "it's a fact.. accept it", but they never really explained the things in a way that made sense or went into detail with it, made me understad with real life facts etc. I think that would be much more convincing to me. Also the amount of time people thought about things can be convincing to me. I believe my ILI friend a lot and I love to listen to him because I know that he really thinks about things in detail and thoroughly. Sometimes admitting being wrong can almost physically hurt me, lol.
I don't know about the large bodies of information part, yes completely new topics and lots of stuff to read about it will take me a while to learn about them.. but I actually can store lots of knowledge in my memory. I think understanding new topics and memorising them is something everyone can struggle with?

Oh look, a reasonable outlook and not just trying to say the "right" exact things to sound Te polr in theory.

[dot]

the difference between Te suggestive and Te polr has to do with creative usage. Creative Fe means Te polr, which means creative Fe is not concerned with the "does this make sense" in terms of "logic of actions." i.e. creative Fe fabricates "Fe products" that may in the end be counterproductive in terms of whether or not it actually works against itself or is at all efficient in regards to what it is trying to accomplish. A good example is of an Fe product is a lie or absurdity told in order to raise somene's spirits. The utterace may in fact raise their spirits, but what the person really needs, long term, is real self esteem or an answer to their immediate practical problem. Thus merely making the interlocutor "feel better" about something without addressing the underlying issue may actually worsen the consequences down the line. This "ilogicality" in terms of goals v actions, is a "failure of Te." It is true, both ESI and SEI may end up behaving in a way where they each "fail" at Te or do something less than perfect in regards to "logic of actions" but the difference is, in principle, Te suggestive tries not to, and is receptive to people venturing ideas and courses of actions that inclue not failing at Te as a core principle. They find Te considerations persuasive. SEI finds Te critique of actions "mean", whereas ESI is convinced of the necessity of such considerations. ESI doesn't tend to give fake compliments, and if they do it tends to be with people they aren't genuinely concerned about but simply want to manipulate. Te and Fi go together, such that in a certain sense Fi is Te: if someone is not worth sincerity then it is ok to "manipulate" them obsequiously, this is a Te/Fi way of thinking.

SEI feels that in general Fe is the ultimate answer for everything, such that when they go about producing "Fe products" they, by definition, must exclude Te as a judgement criterion [1]. SEI generally uses Fe to protect itself, it "wraps" a Fe cocoon around itself such that anyone who wants to "move" the SEI has to penetrate it. This is how introverts manage to protect their base function, which is concerned with, especially in the case of Ip, homeostasis and equilibration over time. SEI likes to set things up so that anyone who would tell them what to do or otherwise act "against" them looks like that a big meanie. Especially in the case of Sp/So types this is their primary way of being that they exude automatically. Fi thinks "care" is the "ugly truth" (because it leads to solving problems--Te). SEI thinks "care" in the sense of improving emotional states, by whatever means necessary, is the answer itself, without concern for logic or time and how they come together to create future consequences--that is the realm of the gamma NTs, their opposites.

the reason Te polr has a reputation for being bad at "getting shit done" is not because they're incapable of making plans, or executing, in principle, but because they substitute their planning for sweet nothings that obviate the need for planning or action, as a general strategy when confronted with anything (fe creative). this of course tends to lead to going nowhere over time

Te suggestive doesn't do that, instead they tend to work their ass off, because they have a valued albiet low res picture of what needs to get done and they take that very seriously. if they go nowhere its because they're spending too much time busting their ass and aren't lazy enough (in the way balzac is lazy: i.e.: all about efficiency and cost-benefit)

[1] paradoxically, the more SEI/IEI like you, the less likely they are to tell you the "ugly truth"-- IEIs reputation for "lyricism" is their intuitional ability to finely tune any expression in order to make it palatable--that is their poeticism, so they're not exactly lying, they work hard to craft "Fe" in order to both tell the truth and make it "aesthetically pleasing"--this is in essence poetry

No need to let the hate for Fe shine through (this is a bit too subjective in my opinion).

Also I am known to be one of the most honest and blunt people around.. yes I dislike hurting people I actually like more than strangers with my words. But I never lie to them when it is about negative things, when things bother me I always tell my best friend. I am actually quite a nitpicker. I sometimes struggle though with constantly bringing things up so it can come through with me exploding because I bottled it up for so long.

Also when confronted about my laziness I actually don't like that for real, because it is none of other people's business. Only I decide if I like being lazy or not. And my way of life is none of their concern.. so many people already commented on it I just wanna vomit in their face (not literally obviously).

Fe doesn't have anything to do with lies, met tons of SEEs who lied and weren't honest. IEEs and SEEs (especially SEEs) can lie when they charm people or exaggerate facts .. my SEE stepfather does it constantly.. sometimes he won't even tell a story the exact same way it was.

I also do not tell lies with Fe in general.. it is usually used by telling real stories in an exciting way (intonation of voice, faces I pull) and then expect a certain reaction/ entertain a group.. usually (there was an EII youtuber who really explained Fe to Fe POLRs and why it is important). Fi is true to itself.. but Fe (because I have the intention to make someone laugh or happy) is meant in a good/true way towards the other person, intention wise. If it is healthy of course (but that is a rule for every used function.. to be healthy to express it in a positive way).

[Bertrand]

Te polr is inability to discern the truth from "things that produce positive affect"--its a substitute definition for truth at loggerheads with Te, so of course Fe doesn't view itself as a liar. That kind of self awareness comes from Fi/Te. Everyone has always known Fi views Fe as "fake" (aka lies), whereas Fe views Fi as "selfish." but each function does not ethically view itself as such because it has an opposite thinking dichotomy that structures their ethics in a consistent way. The construction that Fe "lies" is using a Te criterion for judgement. The idea that Fi lies in the case of SEE is likely a case of Ti polr, I do not think it is a coincidence that you brought them up in that regard, judged in light of Fe/Ti. SEE likewise does not see themselves as a liar. If you take the position that Fe doesn't have anything to do with lies then the result is that no one lies. Whereas I tend to believe "everyone lies" which is basically, again, Te v Fe view of the world [1]. The difference is Fe seems to lack self awareness but Te runs the risk of justifying unethical behavior. For what its worth, I try to root out lies and not dispense with them via distraction or other feel good means, because in the end, that way of dealing with them is not helpful long term

Fe has a real problem of producing ideas that shift the blame without fully understanding the issue because investigating it fully would lead to negative feelings [2]. The counterproductivity of such action at its worst is Te polr. Fe polr has the opposite problem where it produces good ideas in a "package" that precludes it from ever being implemented. Si polr has the problem of death or insanity stopping good work before it can be finished

[1] a better way to put it is, we are all sinners (miss the mark). that untruth "infects" us all psychologically, it is a condition of being fallen, of being human

[2] hence the beta proclivity to "scapegoat" and "send to the monastery"--as Strat so insightfully points out

this all, I think, amounts to the fundamental difference between a merry v serious worldview

[squark]

Te polr is inability to discern the truth from "things that produce positive affect"--its a substitute definition for truth at loggerheads with Te, so of course Fe doesn't view itself as a liar.

Except Te isn't "the truth."

External dynamics of objects
Internal dynamics of objects
External statics of objects

A few examples of aspects. Pick which one is "the truth."


Answer: they're all looking at various aspects of reality. It's not about truth and falsehood.

[Bertrand]

if positive affect is the goal and your actions in pursuit of it lead towards less of it over time can we at least say that labeling the straightforward pursuit of it as the truth constitutes a failure to discern the truth in light of your own goals and thus implicit criterion for truth?

in that sense manifestations of "te polr" are by definition instances of "inability" to discern the truth

if Fe makes no claim on the truth then it is not a failure to discern the truth but rather a flat denial of truth as such, i.e.: nihilistic to the core (incipit LSI), in which case there's nothing really to discuss

in other words its not enough to say there are "merely perspectives" if that doesn't in some sense posit a whole of which the perspectives view. there is both subject and object without which neither exists in a cognizable form

the idea of there being psychological perspectives is a product of ego/super ego relations and each has to come to terms with the other, one cannot flatly deny the other without paying the price

every polr is a manifestation of paying the piper, so to speak. it is the outer situation asserting itself

the ultimate goal is to unify the perspectives, which means we cannot deny them, but rather must integrate them. your way of viewing things, squark, actually smacks of Ne polr in defense of Fe/Ti in its own way

I mean this all in the gentlest possible way, but you will see in my earlier post how I touch on how Fe polr is the other side of the coin of Te polr for example. in the end each judgement criterion has to reckon with the other, so a rush to the defense of Fe polr amounts to succumbing to it

for what its worth i fundamentally believe that Fe and Te have the same goals, just different priorities, those priorities do not constitute truth but reflect a portion of it (Ne). to leave it at perspectives and priorities is nihilism and is an untruth itself.. a kind of moral failure to seek further and examine one's own sin

[The Reality Denialist]

PoLR issue is with causation and correlation due to minimal factual exposure. Hence conclusions might be totally out of whack.

Sure, IEIs can manipulate others but that is not PoLR.

[FDG]

For instance, she has the tendency to eat a bit of cookie and leave the rest in the box.

I do this too. Well, I mean, I may break a cookie in half a piece and leave half in the box. Reason being, that eating more than 2,5 cookies would have been above the pre-programmed calorie intake for that breakfast...

[squark]

Fe and Te have . . . different priorities, those priorities do not constitute truth but reflect a portion of it

Which is what I already said: "they're all looking at various aspects of reality." In other words, each is focused on a different part of the whole.

[Bertrand]

yes but there is a truth and Fe can be counter productive according to it and its not just a matter of perspective but is something real, otherwise why call it polr, why not just "more good stuff flowing from Fe reasoning"

instead its called pain (the painful function), which is basically the most fundamental manifestation of truth, which ive discussed in my Ni thread

note: I didn't say Te was the truth, but that Fe is a substitute for the truth and it is at loggerheads with Te

i will say this, something about the linearity of Ti makes it hard for it to admit any sort of culpability because I think the fear is [one wrong thing] somehow makes them wrong about everything, hence every issue is some kind of hill to die on... this goes to complex of subservience, so in true IEI fashion I'm content to end here

[Tigerfadder]

efficient is taking a loan renting a church and go to the right place to get people for the benefit of the community. Do the correct steps for a specific goal. Practical is building the actual church or being handy. Am I viewing "practical" wrongly?

[Bertrand]

you're comparing NF to ST basically

what is practical has to do with Te and whether its conscious or subconscious, i also talk about that in my Ni thread. the definition differs by type and goal

implicitly the most practical act for ESE is to make cookies, the most practical for ILI to argue why its impractical under the circumstances. efficiency can be measured in terms of Te but the values that weight the "returns" are subjective

Si is a little easier to understand in the sense that Si base, "introverts" view the world through the impact it has on their own inner sensations, and further view those inner sensations in terms of practicality or positive emotion. And for each, one word means the other; hence SEI finds the pursuit of introverted (self centered) physical states that serve to improve their emotions as the definition of "practicality", implictly (unconscious Te/Fi) by the way they live their life and acting out their program. Likewise SLI views the long term sustainability of their own internal physical states viewed in light of practical objective metrics to be the cause and measure of positive emotion--to them; achievement of these states is achievement of Fe, and conspicuous avoidance of direct Fe engagement yet seeming effortless ability to become the soul of the company (promote Fe states) is evidence to the efficacy of this strategy. To wrap up this digression, the Si egos either go about thinking in terms of Si as a product to be manipulated in the self and provided towards others as a superordinate goal that it is either "logical" (Te) or "ethical" (Fe) or as the fundamental goal unto themselves which is then promoted by serving up rational methods (Te, Fe) in order to maximize them for both the self and others. In essence SEI says to himself "what can I do to improve the mood such that I might feel better--I know I will give a compliment!" whereas ESE says "how can I improve someone's physical state in order that I might improve the mood--I know I will offer candy!" Each of these approaches can be directed at the self or others which leads to the paradoxical result of introverts treating themselves the way an extrovert would treat another person, and an extrovert treating themself the way an introvert would treat another person. It just means at that moment contrary to what they do most of the time they have inverted their prevailing attitude. This brings me to one final aside that personality is just a relatively consistent pattern of behavior manifest over time. So it means what defines you as an introvert or extrovert is not prescriptive in that it does not "control your destiny" rather one could conceivably simply act in an extroverted manner and if in doing so over time you spent the majority of your time in an extroverted way you would be by definition an extrovert. The underlying factor seems to be whether or not people biologically have the energy to do such a thing or whether their habits are in some way determined by a base energetic economy. That is still something of an open question.

[Tigerfadder]

you're comparing NF to ST basically

what is practical has to do with Te and whether its conscious or subconscious, i also talk about that in my Ni thread. the definition differs by type and goal

implicitly the most practical act for ESE is to make cookies, the most practical for ILI to argue why its impractical under the circumstances. efficiency can be measured in terms of Te but the values that weight the "returns" are subjective

I do not think it is such a NF ST deviance. All Judging extroverts know the "right steps" and all introverted perceivers can foresee how to do things.

[Bertrand]

whyd you ask if you already know

[Aylen]

Im talking like, hammering nails. Golf, ice skating, driving cars. Cooking food. Etc. IEI are good at things like that.

I believe I am a very good driver. I have been told I am. Very few people backseat drive me and the ones who have are control freaks anyway. Granted I have have had years of practice and more than a few close calls. Made some stupid mistakes when I was younger but survived them without causing an accident. Nothing like a close call to sober me up. I wasn't even drinking. I was just musing. They just made my heart pound so fast I was hyper aware of what I was doing afterwards. I have earned a reputation of being protected by unseen forces because of things like that.

My biggest problem was with directions and getting lost, missing my exit because I was daydreaming and things of that nature. I got my license when I was 16 just before they raised the legal age. My motivation was freedom. I like driving along on open roads, listening to music. It is kind of meditative. I know that sounds scary but other IEI have said they enjoy it too. Despite all that I am a good driver.

My stepdad (ILI) taught me to drive and he was surprisingly more patient than my mom. I taught my EII sister how to drive a stick shift and she is a worse driver than me. I would stumble on my words while trying to tell her what to do and my instinct was just to do it for her instead of tell her but of course I couldn't being in the passenger side. She still refuses to drive most of the time. I didn't instill in her the confidence to do it that my step dad instilled in me. He probably should have taught her too but I wanted out of the house so told them I could do it and my sister wanted to hang out with me so she went along with it. I remember getting very frustrated with her and she with me. I probably yelled. My stepdad never yelled at me.

My IEI brother and ESE sister both went to driving school. Neither passed the driving test on the first try. Both have had more accidents individually than my EII sister and me combined. My ESE sister had a terrible habit of riding other people's tails. I literally held on for my life when she drove like that and used my imaginary brakes. She is getting better as she gets older. If you tried to tell her she was to close she would just say, "I got this. I know what I'm doing" like she was offended that she had to be told that less than a car length at 60mph was not safe. I try to stay far enough behind other cars just because I know other driver's are often unpredictable and she wouldn't listen when we told her that was why we were all getting on her. I am just happy she knows better now.

A few years ago we were trying to push another IEI family member to get his license because he was 17 and that is the legal age here. He refused and said he would never drive. He is very afraid but people kept pushing him, then one day he said to me something like, "you know how I am. you want me behind the wheel?" enough said I told everyone to leave him alone. He still doesn't have a license and for now the world is safer for it.

The other stuff you mention, I do suck at but I can hammer a nail without destroying the wall. I usually use too little force but I get it in eventually. I suck at skating (even though my ex's family owned a rink) and I don't really cook and never have. I probably eat out at least a couple times a week but I am getting better at making things at home. I use the microwave frequently and heat up leftovers that other people make. I lived on the TV dinners for a long time rotating three or four different kinds. I just don't care about food like other people, never did. I know IEI that love food though and will cook.

There was a running joke I had when I got into new relationships. I would say, "I don't cook, I don't clean, and I don't do your laundry" or some variation on that. It never ended a relationship before it even got started, surprisingly, they were cool with it. The reality is that I did do those things in my own way even if it was to hire someone to do it or just do it myself. I pulled my weight and gave to the relationship in every way I could. Fortunately I never got into a relationship with someone so old fashioned they didn't see the humor of my warning.

ps. I can make my surroundings quite beautiful at least to my eyes. I don't much like cookies.
pps. Someone please send Bert back to the damn monastery so he can stop crusading. Jesus does not approve.

[huiheiwufhawriuhg]

This sounds like non-valued Ti to me.

My SEE sister has a similar issue with those things. One silly example is how she eats certain foods. For instance, she has the tendency to eat a bit of cookie and leave the rest in the box. My ILE-Ti brother always gets really upset over this, and I used to get upset over it, too. We keep telling her she is supposed to eat the whole cookie. Or she just takes a tiny piece of out the middle of a freshly baked cake. It ruins the "unity" of the cake. We tell her she is supposed to get a proper slice. Sometimes I tell people to get themselves a plate when they are about to eat something without one, because that's how you are supposed to do it, ha.

Generally, Ti PoLR and unvalued Ti seem to have an issue with rules like that. But it is difficult to describe what exactly is non-valued Ti about it...

But yeah, this video reminds me of Ti PoLR, haha.

I'd never do any of the things your sister does...it sounds super annyoing, who'd taste a cake from the middle? Doesn't make any sense to me... .
I was talking about rules that don't make any sense and actually limit one's freedom. For example at school you're suppoused to learn all the subjects...well I was the kid who only learnt whatever I personally found interesting and totally didn't care about anyhting else. Same about reading lists, I've never read anything on them, because I believe that art and literature should be a personal thing, none can dictate me what to read. Rules like no piercings, tattoos and dress codes? Fuck them, none can ever tell me what to look like it's my body, it's my choice. Lunch breaks only for 30 minutes... well I'll eat my lunch at my speed and none will dictate me otherwise. No breaks during your work... no way I'd ever obey that shit. Actually filling out administrative formulas that mostly make no sense... no way. Bringing everything somebody tells me to a meeting...no I'll only bring what I think is important, not them. Working from 9 till' 5? No way... I work when I feel like working, I always do things on time, I just have to organize it myself.

[dot]

yes but there is a truth and Fe can be counter productive according to it and its not just a matter of perspective but is something real, otherwise why call it polr, why not just "more good stuff flowing from Fe reasoning"

instead its called pain (the painful function), which is basically the most fundamental manifestation of truth, which ive discussed in my Ni thread

note: I didn't say Te was the truth, but that Fe is a substitute for the truth and it is at loggerheads with Te

i will say this, something about the linearity of Ti makes it hard for it to admit any sort of culpability because I think the fear is [one wrong thing] somehow makes them wrong about everything, hence every issue is some kind of hill to die on... this goes to complex of subservience, so in true IEI fashion I'm content to end here

So thus we can conclude that every person in the world (since everyone has a POLR) rejects a certain truth, may it be the Te, Fe, Fi, Ti, Ni, Se, Si, Ne truth that other types are better at I guess?!

[Bertrand]

yes precisely. in pushing the boundaries of what one function can do--the creative, they make themselves vulnerable according to polr

every type is beautiful in their own way for that reason. the "worst" polr may as well be called "the best" because nothing ventured nothing gained

its why defensiveness about one's polr is misguided, its one's greatest strength and source of creative potential

no one can view their own polr objectively anyway except in the most trite terms, so commenting on your own, if its your own, is pointless anyway, except perhaps from the point of view of a confession of guilt and lessons learned. indeed, if theres any value to be had from polr its from the experience of it failing. even if you could outsmart your own polr it would just amount to mistyping yourself and something else is about to blindside you. if your polr isnt painful then its not your polr meaning youre not the type that has it as a polr. people ought to think about that, and think about what really is painful to them

[Stellafera]

Uhm this isn't about how fast someone gets the license but how good they are at it and I noticed most types are better at it than IEIs. Especially Se doms.

Yeah, I of course learned to drive (where I live in the US, it's absolutely essential), but it wasn't easy for me at all. If it wasn't necessary for daily life, I would've never sought to learn. It engages all sorts of skillsets I'm naturally weak in. Spatial awareness, directional awareness...

IMO, There's an important distinction between natural talent for something and desire to succeed. I pay attention to my responsibilities, but as others have mentioned, I do them "in my own way". The notion that I would save everything till the last minute out of some dedication to hating Te is ridiculous. No, I create some sort of elaborate schedule for myself Ti-HA style and follow that, because I believe in putting out good work. I create a budget system and follow that, etc. I can be surprisingly bad at some things, but I also do my best to overcome my weaknesses. Lazy IEIs are just lazy, period.

[Pallas]

People probably never even looked at the types of the best students within academic settings.

Makes it so Scantrons have to be printed with socionics questionnaires at the beginning and the data has to be sent to the World Typology Foundation

[ooo]

Te and Fi go together, such that in a certain sense Fi is Te: if someone is not worth sincerity then it is ok to "manipulate" them obsequiously, but if you care about them you tell them the truth, (this is why people tend to think Strat has it out for LIE, when all I see is love) this is a Te/Fi way of thinking.

This was enlightening...

[summerprincess]

Yeah, I of course learned to drive (where I live in the US, it's absolutely essential), but it wasn't easy for me at all. If it wasn't necessary for daily life, I would've never sought to learn. It engages all sorts of skillsets I'm naturally weak in. Spatial awareness, directional awareness...

IMO, There's an important distinction between natural talent for something and desire to succeed. I pay attention to my responsibilities, but as others have mentioned, I do them "in my own way". The notion that I would save everything till the last minute out of some dedication to hating Te is ridiculous. No, I create some sort of elaborate schedule for myself Ti-HA style and follow that, because I believe in putting out good work. I create a budget system and follow that, etc. I can be surprisingly bad at some things, but I also do my best to overcome my weaknesses. Lazy IEIs are just lazy, period.

Driving is difficult for me too ; I learned pretty late and it's sometimes hard to gauge where the cars are and distances of things so I have to be extra cautious. IEI thing or just my personal shitty spatial skills? Idk. I have always scored badly on spatial tests as has my mom so I think it's partially genetic. My mom is not IEI. Creating systems sounds so useful and I try to do that but it's hard to follow through with using the systems in question.

[karas]

IEI and his te-polr
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J95CXm4kGvQhttps://youtu.be/J95CXm4kGvQ

[karas]

IEI and his te-polr

[Aster]

I often envision how I want things to be, but don’t know the steps to get there, and have a hard time mustering the motivation.

Example, yesterday, I was just staring at a piece of land,
trying to figure out what to do with it.

this is my 4D Se/Te husband already on it….insinuating I’d let them sit around until they die until I figure out what to do with them or how… and he’s prob right