What a conflictor really is

[Creepy-male]

Your opinions please...

Mine is that a conflictor isn't necessary one you can't get along with or be friends with and so forth. They are a person which requires more psychological energy to maintain a relationship with than someone who doesn't hit your super-ego functions.

My reasoning is that when a person's ego consists of the functions in your super-ego, essentially what is occurring is their focus is on matters which are less important for you. Their focus is likely to generate a world outlook ([ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_view]World view - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]) which is not as immediate to you, and vice versa. This is the source of the conflict.

This doesn't however mean that it's completely impossible to get along with your conflictor, what it means is the following. In order to get along with a person who has an ego which is your super-ego... you must somehow convert your world outlook to one which fits better to theirs... this requires translating your ego functions to super-ego functions, which takes more effort than simply immediately receiving information which touches on your ego functions. Because of this... in order to "mesh" well with this individual, a lot of effort of psychological energy is required... in order to convert your world outlook to theirs, its like a change of basis (lin alg concept).

Also it's important to notice while the information elements tell us what information specific types focus on... it does not tell us about that information... i.e. personal experience. Therefore there is natural variation in certain people. If enough time is spent with an individual conflictor, it is possible to develop an understanding of that person to actually get a grasp on their world view and make sense of it in terms of your ego. This process however requires more of an energy investment than say a like quadra-mate or a dual. Also if you loose contact with a conflictor ally/friend, its likely your present ego-based model of their world view will become disharmonious with the changes they have undergone in that time and energy will have to be invested once again.

So essentially to sum up, the conflictor is not one who you must always be at conflict with... what is really means is the amount of psychological energy required to understand the other person's world outlook in your own terms. Duals require very little energy to understand, their world outlook actually functions as an inspiration for your ego. Identicals require no energy to understand, but once again this doesn't mean you will agree with them in terms of individual differences... its just that there perspective will be immediately recognizable as something familiar to you instead of foreign. The dual seems foreign, but they are a welcome foreigner who is constantly inspiring you. The conflictor is a foreigner who has a perspective that drains you psychologically due to the large amount of energy investment to interact with them, but this energy isn't wasted, it just goes into strengthening your super-ego... which is a naturally stressful situation. In fact I'd argue occasionally time spent interacting with conflictors helps make you stronger, by challenging you to use your ego to strengthen your super-ego... its like expending energy to work out... except its psychological in nature... enough time with a conflictor will exhaust and deplete you, just like working out too hard will.

[silverchris9]

Agreed. This is another reason why conflict relationships can be fine as long as there's psychological distance. When you are close to someone, when you have to be with them on a daily or otherwise regular basis, even co-workers, at some point, they're going to see you at your worst, or at least under stress. And when you're under stress, you're completely acting out of your ego, completely using what you're best at to reach your goals. Otherwise you're not going to succeed. And when you don't have the energy to sort of translate your thoughts, you can't deal with a conflictor. That's my real problem with LSEs: I just don't have enough energy to deal with them all the time. Because to me, it takes energy to act like you care about things you don't actually care about and pay attention to things you wouldn't normally pay attention to, and hold back certain statements.

But yeah, I think you're spot on. You don't have to fight with a conflictor. You just have to meet each other in the middle--it's just really strenuous to do that. Just as with a dual, the more like yourself you are, the better, with a conflictor, the less like yourself you are, the better.

[Creepy-male]

You just have to meet each other in the middle--it's just really strenuous to do that. Just as with a dual, the more like yourself you are, the better, with a conflictor, the less like yourself you are, the better.

Hmm maybe that's a bit strong... I don't think the goal to dealing with a conflictor is to be a phony... it's to find a "rossetta" stone where you can translate matters of the super-ego into your ego. Usually the translation between these elements is weak, but the conflictor forces you to notice the aspects of life you overlook, which creates stress. It does the same back to them though also.

I do agree with you on the other stuff concerning psychological distance. Its really best to keep distant from your conflictor until you can disarm the psycho-tension... rushing headlong will just drain you.

On the positive, I think the conflictor can help you strengthen your overall abilities... but it comes at the price of some stress.

Also I think people are likely to "pretend" and be "phony" around their conflictor as a survival mechanism, when they are drained.

[Creepy-male]

Conflicting relations seem more like a 'ships passing in the night' ordeal. I've never had outright hostilities w/ an ISFp before, but we've never been close either. We're just far too different from each other. What would we ever fight about or bond over?

Well that's possible, a lot of the values are not the same so they tend to avoid each other naturally, but in some situations like work and whatever... your forced to interact with your conflictor.

[717495]

Conflicting seems much less "ship passing in the night" from an introvert's perspective, because typically whenever some Fe person is Feing I can notice it right away, and its very annoying and uncomfortable, and I'm sure other introverts relate.

[Creepy-male]

Conflicting seems much less "ship passing in the night" from an introvert's perspective, because typically whenever some Fe person is Feing I can notice it right away, and its very annoying and uncomfortable, and I'm sure other introverts relate.

Yeah, even I can get a little overwhelmed by some Fe dominant Fespam.

Also, inb4thatscuzurFeHA

[717495]

I think I'm talking about an entirely different level of annoyance and discomfort.

[squark]

I think the people who you're prone to have disagreements, and conflicts with are those who you think SHOULD be able to understand you. Once you get to know your conflictor, even marginally, you realize that they're not going to see things the way you do, and you don't waste the time. I can be friends with IEEs. They're actually pleasant company, I don't feel "psychologically strained" and we can even like each other. HOWEVER, when our goals or opinions are opposing, I don't waste any effort trying to convince them. I just go on my own way.

My worst frustrations with people are those in my own and neighboring quadras, not my opposing one. And it all stems from what we have in common. Because of what you have in common, there is greater frustration when you can't get through. The idea that they should be able to understand you is always there eating at you. But why even bother with delta NFs? I've learned from the arguments I've had with them how they see things. That's who they are, and nothing I say or do is going to change them or rewire their brain to be able to see things the way I do, or vv.

[Jarno]

Conflict relationships have already been described accurately and in detail on russian sites. I don't see why we should invent the wheel again.

[crazedrat]

This thread looks like moral inflexibility mixed with forced compassion, and it's almost enough to convince me you're some Fi type. Not to mention everything you've said here is well known. I especially like how you linked a wikipedia definition of world_view.

Their focus is likely to generate a world outlook (World view - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) which is not as immediate to you, and vice versa. This is the source of the conflict.

wow, insightful

[Beautiful sky]

This thread looks like moral inflexibility mixed with forced compassion, and it's almost enough to convince me you're some Fi type. Not to mention everything you've said here is well known. I especially like how you linked a wikipedia definition of world_view.


wow, insightful

He's an Fi activation/ role type.

If you're talking about Jarno then activation; if Havelucidz then role

[Creepy-male]

This thread looks like moral inflexibility mixed with forced compassion, and it's almost enough to convince me you're some Fi type. Not to mention everything you've said here is well known. I especially like how you linked a wikipedia definition of world_view.


wow, insightful

lol. How is what I'm saying at all have to do with moral inflexibility. I'm just trying to find a conceptualization of what a conflictor really means, if you disagree, so be it. How in the hell is that "moral inflexibility" or "forced compassion"?

Lol and I'll be sure to never ever end up posting something that isn't well known... I mean its the sin of all sins to give information to a person they already know.... it's just so awful to be forced to sit here and read.... wait..... oh your not forced to sit here and read information you already know.... damn, for some reason I thought you were upset because you didn't like being force fed information you already knew? I mean do you go to the library and find books on subjects you already know, and then criticize them for being stuff that is already well known by the general public for fun, and then play it off like it is somehow hurting you?

The wikipedia link to world view is on account of the word "weltanschauung".... it's one of those german words like "zeitgeist". Personally whether you find it interesting or not, I feel its a great word that really doesn't have much use in the english language so I figured I'd post a link in. Unfortunately wikipedia doesn't link directly to the word "weltanschauung"... it goes to "world view". Now knowing your personality, I'm almost positive, regardless of this explanation you still will remain rather apathetic and unimpressed... so really don't even bother replying with your attempts at sarcasm. If you're not interested get the fuck out of this topic, I posted it for those that have an interest in words that encapsulate concepts, if this isn't you... well once again read my second paragraph.

[Beautiful sky]

Have,

Conflictor only really means one function prefered over another. Too much emphasis of one type of material will inevitably drive each other nuts.

[Creepy-male]

Conflictor only really means one function prefered over another.

I'm sure there is more to the concept of a conflictor than a simple one sentence explanation that you typed out in two seconds.

Too much emphasis of one type of material will inevitably drive each other nuts.

lol that's such a surface level look at it, why does it drive you nuts? That's a much deeper and interesting question, and the question that I'm attempting to answer in this thread.

[Creepy-male]

Conflict relationships have already been described accurately and in detail on russian sites. I don't see why we should invent the wheel again.

I don't see socionics as a wheel created by man. I don't see it as a feat of engineering but rather a discovery in the realm of social science. Socionics is no more invented in my perspective than someone invented the theory of relativity. It was discovered in the process of understanding how nature works. Socionics to me is a discovery as to how people work. What I'm getting at here is how does a conflict relationship work.

You may have read the russian sites, and this may have been enough for you... which is great, but I'm not re-inventing the wheel. The wheel already exists and I am merely attempting to understand the mechanics of the wheel in more depth.

Now that I've answered why I feel like what appears to YOU as inventing the wheel again... and how I feel YOUR viewpoint of my efforts is an incorrect categorization.... please feel free to either leave this thread as it does not interest you or add your opinions and feedback on the current topic of consideration which is "What a conflictor really means".

I'm guessing you'll opt for leaving if I've correctly characterized your viewpoint which is the following. "What I (jarno) believes a conflictor really is; is what I read on the RUSSIAN SITES!!!".

Good *pats jarno on head*... I've noted your opinion, no need to continue our conversation here.

[Beautiful sky]

Where are your duals?

Vero

To sift through the info.

[Jarno]

"What I (jarno) believes a conflictor really is; is what I read on the RUSSIAN SITES!!!".

I've lived with my conflictor for 4 years. So I know what a conflict relationship is (likely more then anyone else here). Therefor I was just confirming that the russian descriptions are spot on so that you don't need to look any further. BTW I'm not here to fight with you.

[Suz]

I've lived with my conflictor for 4 years. So I know what a conflict relationship is (likely more then anyone else here). Therefor I was just confirming that the russian descriptions are spot on so that you don't need to look any further. BTW I'm not here to fight with you.

Would you share what you read on the russian sites for those of us who are unable to or have great difficulty doing so (me in the latter category)?

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

You have a point. Effort sucks though. Having to put effort just to get along with somebody is annoying, especially when the relationship is asymmetrical.

Conflictors are just the furthest removed from your inner life. And so you have to put in the most work just to maintain friends with them. All relationships require some effort tho, no matter how idealized. But with a conflictor why even try? Better to just go your separate ways, if possible.

[Beautiful sky]

At first, conflicting relations are easy, fun, and work free. Later, they become nothing but work, psychological work, because as with all things that are not duality, parties wish for dual's response and presence so they try to change the other partner, but they can't.

[Creepy-male]

You have a point. Effort sucks though. Having to put effort just to get along with somebody is annoying, especially when the relationship is asymmetrical.

Conflictors are just the furthest removed from your inner life. And so you have to put in the most work just to maintain friends with them. All relationships require some effort tho, no matter how idealized. But with a conflictor why even try? Better to just go your separate ways, if possible.

Yea, lol I kind of feel as though people take this as "you better get along with your conflictor".... I'm not saying that at all. I think it's very likely most people will just avoid their conflictor and go their separate ways. I also think socionics provides a good "first slice" explanation on why their are some people out their you simply conflict with.

However, I wrote this topic to touch on the fact that in my belief there is no relationship that is impossible... I personally find it disturbing a bit that I'm supposed to believe a certain group of people out there are just going to conflict with me and I with them and that it's physically impossible for us to ever get along... it just is the nature of the world, we hate each other and that is that, and that coexistence and tolerance isn't possible so we simply have to isolate each other.

I think a lot of people aren't on this wavelength and don't get where I am coming from... but regardless that is my concern. I wish to take a minute to sharpen the sword and refine the definition of a conflictor so that it is in harmony with the idea of it being possible if the need should ever arise to have to be in a relationship with a conflictor.

I realize though a lot of people would prefer to not interact with their conflictor because it drains them off too much energy and is unpleasant. It's not like I'm calling you wrong or something if that's what you choose to do. My concern is to avoid perverse ideas that lay a foundation for believes that are unhealthy to me, and possibly others, but I want to be methodical and scientific in the way I arrive at these revision so they actually mean something that represents the way reality is, and not just something I believe to make me feel better.

[Creepy-male]

I've lived with my conflictor for 4 years. So I know what a conflict relationship is (likely more then anyone else here). Therefor I was just confirming that the russian descriptions are spot on so that you don't need to look any further. BTW I'm not here to fight with you.

Well that's great but I would suggest you don't try to advise me using your own personal experiences. That's part of the reason why I reacted the way I did to your post. Secondarily and potentially more important is the fact that I'm a bit defensive against being trolled for simply sharing my ideas concerning ways of conceptualizing "Model A". I've noticed a lot of resistance from the simple act of questioning the fundamentals of socionics, most people prefer to merely discuss it's implications as if it were to simply be taken as a clearly a priori truth that is self-evident to even the simplest intellects, and that question it either implies a severe deficit of intelligence or a delusional state of mental health. All of which I feel is too extreme and fanatical for just a simple scientific theory that most people live healthy lives without concerning themselves with. Ergo, I'm a little guarded on here about posting my ideas. I'm glad your not trying to fight me though, I'd prefer to not engage in a flame war.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I wish to take a minute to sharpen the sword and refine the definition of a conflictor so that it is in harmony with the idea of it being possible if the need should ever arise to have to be in a relationship with a conflictor.

I just think it's professional etiquette not to talk about 'personal things' at work. Of course, in all reality this never works out. People like to talk and gossip about others, and talk about their views. And why would you even work with somebody you're incompatible with anyway? You probably wouldn't even apply to the company if you could help it. But a lot of people are conditioned to thinking that 'work' is something you have to do even if it's the most piece of shit job in the world.

So ideally, conflictors need to avoid each other. If that's not possible, they just need to keep it shallow as possible. It's best to assume that you won't even need to meet your conflictor in the first place then worry about what to do if the problem arises. To me that's just creating problems. Already enough of those in the world, we don't need more.

[Creepy-male]

I just think it's professional etiquette not to talk about 'personal things' at work. Of course, in all reality this never works out. People like to talk and gossip about others, and talk about their views. And why would you even work with somebody you're incompatible with anyway? You probably wouldn't even apply to the company if you could help it. But a lot of people are conditioned to thinking that 'work' is something you have to do even if it's the most piece of shit job in the world.

So ideally, conflictors need to avoid each other. If that's not possible, they just need to keep it shallow as possible. It's best to assume that you won't even need to meet your conflictor in the first place then worry about what to do if the problem arises. To me that's just creating problems. Already enough of those in the world, we don't need more.

lol yea but what if you like crash landed on a desert island and had to work together to survive... if you just take an absolute view of constantly trying to isolate yourself from a group of people, you could be setting yourself up for problems because sometimes circumstances force people together... Of course this is kind of a highly circumstantial thing and in reality there would be no need to do this unless you were forced into it by outside circumstances, but it's nice to know your not doomed and fated to always having a ying to your yang. Lol to me it's like.... no matter who you are there are a group of people out their that hate you... and you just avoid them so you don't have to have a troubled live.

(Oh btw, my use of *you* isn't referring to *you* BulletsandDoves but just any arbitrary person)

[Skeptic]

I agree, this makes sense. I've noticed that the people I get along well with yet have to put in work to interact are often not in my own quadra, and the people with which understanding comes effortlessly are usually quadra mates, in my case they are most often identicals. That's not to say that conversation isn't free flowing with the other individuals, it's just that one must work to keep it going, which is straining and can be exhausting depending on the people.

Whatever the Russian sites say, I can't see myself conforming to a system that prescribes outright conflict between two random individuals of conflicting type.

[Creepy-male]

Whatever the Russian sites say, I can't see myself conforming to a system the prescribes outright conflict between two random individuals of conflicting type.

Thank you, you've said my point much better than I could lol.

[Morcheeba]

I've never had any issues with my conflictor, of course my sister is an SLI so maybe that could be the explanation as to why I don't feel uncomfortable around them. I've worked in a few offices where an SLI was my boss and I find them to be very compassionate (maybe too much so, must be the HA).
It's funny because I actually feel the most on guard and not myself around Enfp's and Esfp's, for some reason creative makes me uneasy.