EII?

[leckysupport]

Delta?

[leckysupport]

[Marie84]

EII, absolutely

[Lobo]

Actually, I would say enlightened LSE.

[leckysupport]

Actually, I would say enlightened LSE.

Nah, spends too much time creating a warm family atmosphere (including within his crew), having a understanding attitude to criminals and making connections with people. He is also very sensationalist and dramatic; not exactly the hallmarks of a LSE.

The only thing which is remotely LSE-like is his tough-guy persona.

Edit:

[Lobo]

Nah, spends too much time creating a warm family atmosphere (including within his crew), having a understanding attitude to criminals and making connections with people. He is also very sensationalist and dramatic; not exactly the hallmarks of a LSE.

The only thing which is remotely LSE-like is his tough-guy persona.

I can see why you would say EII, but I still get an LSE vibe from him... The way I look at it is that it's impossible for anybody to belong 100% to a certain type. Everybody falls somewhere in the information processing closed loop, and each socionics type is distinct. While what you're saying is true that EIIs spend energy in creating a warm family atmosphere, it doesn't mean that other types cannot do so as well for whatever reason. An LSE in socionics theory, strictly functional wise, will not spend his life energy on something like that, and I agree. However, people in real life are organic, they change and develop based on what happens around them and their experiences. I think this is what Smilex referred to when he said that people can change their type. Personally, I would see it not so much that your type changes, but that you are able to process and value other types of informational elements, making it seem that you are a different type. I think the usual approach to typing is based on observing what you "spew out" rather than what goes on internally, at the core. IMO, temperament is something that you can't fake, especially going from Ij -> Ej energy, which is what I think Dawg demonstrates. There's just something about Dawg that does not convince me of EII, though the values he projects do seem to point to that type.

[UDP]

I think the usual approach to typing is based on observing what you "spew out" rather than what goes on internally, at the core.

That's the difference between MBTI and Socionics. Many people using MBTI criterion and throw around socionics terminology. It's a very simplistic way of using socionics, and leads to misunderstanding.

IMO, temperament is something that you can't fake, especially going from Ij -> Ej energy, which is what I think Dawg demonstrates. There's just something about Dawg that does not convince me of EII, though the values he projects do seem to point to that type.

Possibly. I don't really see him as an EII. I almost think ESE or some extratim F type. If he's LSE, he's 1 or 3.

[leckysupport]

I can see why you would say EII, but I still get an LSE vibe from him... The way I look at it is that it's impossible for anybody to belong 100% to a certain type. Everybody falls somewhere in the information processing closed loop, and each socionics type is distinct. While what you're saying is true that EIIs spend energy in creating a warm family atmosphere, it doesn't mean that other types cannot do so as well for whatever reason. An LSE in socionics theory, strictly functional wise, will not spend his life energy on something like that, and I agree. However, people in real life are organic, they change and develop based on what happens around them and their experiences.

Another way of putting this is that he displays limited and non-existent Te, Si or LSE like behaviour; and a lot of Fi, Ne and EII like behaviour. The show hardly goes into how the criminals are found, all that work is already done before the team leaves. He catches them (exciting and sensational) and proceeds to become their psychologist, works out some problems and then gives some social commentary. He isn't "organically" a LSE enough for him to be called a LSE.

Personally, I would see it not so much that your type changes, but that you are able to process and value other types of informational elements, making it seem that you are a different type.

I personally believe there is more than one way to be a particular type and a lot things we call type related aren't really type related. So behaviour is more fluid then what people expect, but type and the basic way type does thing stays the same.

I think the usual approach to typing is based on observing what you "spew out" rather than what goes on internally, at the core.

IMO since we can't see the process, we focus on the manifestations of the process and we type off that. With seeing enough expression of a types manifestations you should be able to intuit/deduce the type based off the manifestations.

IMO, temperament is something that you can't fake, especially going from Ij -> Ej energy, which is what I think Dawg demonstrates.

IMO temperament is a pretty large abstraction, it covers 4 elements and 4 types (not to mention subtypes). The thing which makes it not as bad as Quadra is that the base elements are rational, accepting and extroverted, and the creative element irrational, producing and introverted. In comparison, type is one abstraction up from expressed type (the least abstracted construct of socionics) and elements sit on the same level as type. So when I want to type someone I focus on elements and type behaviour because those behaviours are closer to what can be easily and readily observed.

There's just something about Dawg that does not convince me of EII, though the values he projects do seem to point to that type.

Fair enough.

[Marie84]

I honestly thought you were joking when you made this thread

The idea of an Se PoLR being able to succeed, or even wanting to go into, that sort of career seems extremely odd. That is, even if they wanted to the weak Se paired with strong Fi would make it difficult

Ryu's suggestion of ESE is probably more likely

[leckysupport]

I honestly thought you were joking when you made this thread

Luckily I don't rely on your opinion for my own or I would be crushed.

The idea of an Se PoLR being able to succeed, or even wanting to go into, that sort of career seems extremely odd.

The Socionist: Socionics and Careers

"However, socionics could be useful after one has chosen one's profession and is trying to find one's niche within the field - assuming that one is essentially satisfied with one's choice of profession. For example, one-on-one counseling with an experienced socionist could be useful for artists and actors who are trying to find their "voice," or for managers and other professionals who are trying to develop the work style that works best for them. For such cases, I can't think of anything more insightful than socionics."

After he captures a criminal he then goes into his niche and his niche involves being understanding of people, forming relationships and having a "good chat".

The Socionist: The "Problem" of Expert Use of Weak Functions

"Each of these statements is partially true, but they break down in numerous situations. It is not rare to see people who appear to have achieved great mastery of their weak functions, or display sloppiness in the use of their strong functions."

[Marie84]

Luckily I don't rely on your opinion for my own or I would be crushed.

I was actually laughing at myself for not noticing that you were being serious, so it wasn't directed at you

After he captures a criminal he then goes into his niche and his niche involves being understanding of people, forming relationships and having a "good chat".

Any ethical type would be good at these things, though extroverted ethical seem to have an easier time initiating people with these qualities.
EII's tend to use Fi and Ne by determining the proximity between themselves and another person, and it's only when someone has initiated them or/and shown that they're welcomed that they'll feel comfortable forming bonds and being social.
An Se PoLR makes it difficult to just jump into things, since there's always that fear that you're intruding into someone else space

In terms of Chapman, I haven't seen any indication that he is an Se PoLR or an Fi dominant. According to his Wikipedia page (although I can't vouch for Wiki's authenticity) has had violent outburst on numerous occasions, both physically and verbally

[leckysupport]

He comes across to me as a almost sad looking loser, which is something that Fe ego types spend a lot of time avoiding. His team isn't comprised of wizkid geniuses with a vast array of skills(not alpha), but just family members and close connections(Fi). Chapman expresses a very limited array of deep passions or hobbies, his only passion seem to be "bringing criminals to justice" and "love for his family"; not fishing, football, T.V series, sex, surgery or programming (Fe+Si). He doesn't promote the philosophy of enjoying life nor is he a bon vivant in any shape or form.

Someone on the show once decided to redecorate the office, the end result was cartoon jungle scene on the front window with name of the firm written in bubble letterings.

IME Alpha is crueller in values (not actions) than Delta; Duane is the opposite of cruel. IME I have come across many a ESE that would have problems sympathising with criminals, from what I've seen ESEs are not so "understanding" in general. The whole process of seeing people in a different light instead of making quick judgements is primarily a Fi thing.

Any ethical type would be good at these things, though extroverted ethical seem to have an easier time initiating people with these qualities.

Yes, but not all EIIs are recluses IME a lot them are quite socially active. I also know a lot of Fe ego types that talk at people and barely listen to anyone.

EII's tend to use Fi and Ne by determining the proximity between themselves and another person, and it's only when someone has initiated them or/and shown that they're welcomed that they'll feel comfortable forming bonds and being social.

This applies mostly to socially introverted EIIs that don't get out much, also I'm sure Fi and Ne could be use in a way to do what Chapman does.

An Se PoLR makes it difficult to just jump into things, since there's always that fear that you're intruding into someone else space

Imposing values on others etc. ...we've had this conversation.

According to his Wikipedia page (although I can't vouch for Wiki's authenticity) has had violent outburst on numerous occasions, both physically and verbally

He is male and therefore has chemicals running through his body telling him to fuck bitches, get into fights and hoard resources. He has also spent a lot of time in the criminal world and would have to at least come off a little tough as a result.

[Lobo]

He comes across to me as a almost sad looking loser

He is male and therefore has chemicals running through his body telling him to fuck bitches, get into fights and hoard resources.

lol

[Marie84]

He comes across to me as a almost sad looking loser, which is something that Fe ego types spend a lot of time avoiding.

I'm not sure what you mean by this

His team isn't comprised of wizkid geniuses with a vast array of skills(not alpha),

This doesn't particularly seem quadra related. People from all quadras can have genius-like abilities, though the majority of people, in general, do not

but just family members and close connections(Fi). Chapman expresses a very limited array of deep passions or hobbies, his only passion seem to be "bringing criminals to justice" and "love for his family"; not fishing, football, T.V series, sex, surgery or programming (Fe+Si). He doesn't promote the philosophy of enjoying life nor is he a bon vivant in any shape or form.

Hobbies, too, are not really quadra related. I've known a lot of deltas who're into hobbies, especially outdoor ones, but not limited to.
"Enjoying life", as in, the enjoying the moment sort of way, sounds Ne-Si in general, compared to Ni-Se quadras who will suffer to accomplish a goal or task; prevailing and accomplishment is their reward

IME Alpha is crueller in values (not actions) than Delta; Duane is the opposite of cruel. IME I have come across many a ESE that would have problems sympathising with criminals, from what I've seen ESEs are not so "understanding" in general.

Could this be more so due to his religious beliefs than type?

The whole process of seeing people in a different light instead of making quick judgements is primarily a Fi thing.

Fi does tend to make quick judgments, especially Fi+Se, but I think I see what you mean.

Yes, but not all EIIs are recluses IME a lot them are quite socially active. I also know a lot of Fe ego types that talk at people and barely listen to anyone.

This applies mostly to socially introverted EIIs that don't get out much, also I'm sure Fi and Ne could be use in a way to do what Chapman does.

I was referring to not initiating, not being a recluse. Multiple EII descriptions touch on this and how it compliments the LSE's need to initiate.
In general, extroverts are the initiators while introverts accept initiative.

Filatova, an EII herself, wrote about this in her type description for EII:

"When she first arrives amongst a group of people she holds herself back. Once she has established a degree of control in regards to the psychological atmosphere of occurrences within the group, and only then, after she has soaked herself in the atmosphere, will she consider becoming a full-fledged member of the collective."

He is male and therefore has chemicals running through his body telling him to fuck bitches, get into fights and hoard resources. He has also spent a lot of time in the criminal world and would have to at least come off a little tough as a result.

Wouldn't an Ne infantile react differently to these desires and chemicals than an Se aggressor or even an Si caregiver...?
Perhaps one of the Delta NF males, here, could fill you in better

[UDP]

that was a good post marie

[leckysupport]

I'm not sure what you mean by this

I mean Fe egos spend a vast amount of time trying to look like "winners" or impressive people.

This doesn't particularly seem quadra related. People from all quadras can have genius-like abilities, though the majority of people, in general, do not

I'm not talking about Quadras having different abilities, but I find Alphas have a habit of keeping wizkid geniuses around them or attempting to be those kinds of geniuses, just as a result of Ne and Ti.

Hobbies, too, are not really quadra related. I've known a lot of deltas who're into hobbies, especially outdoor ones, but not limited to.

Hobbies on their own are not type related, but relaxing (flow inducing), time wasting hobbies are Si, and passion in relaxing time wasting hobbies is Fe and Si.

"Enjoying life", as in, the enjoying the moment sort of way, sounds Ne-Si in general, compared to Ni-Se quadras who will suffer to accomplish a goal or task; prevailing and accomplishment is their reward

"Enjoying life" is an activity of a Si (with Fe) type, not a Ne type, Ne types are typically noted as being unable to relax. "Enjoying life" is also one of main messages that comes from ESEs.

Could this be more so due to his religious beliefs than type?

From my experience with churches, no.

In general, extroverts are the initiators while introverts accept initiative.

Yeah, but not always.

Wouldn't an Ne infantile react differently to these desires and chemicals than an Se aggressor or even an Si caregiver...?
Perhaps one of the Delta NF males, here, could fill you in better

Perhaps.

[UDP]

PS:

He is male and therefore has chemicals running through his body telling him to fuck bitches, get into fights and hoard resources. He has also spent a lot of time in the criminal world and would have to at least come off a little tough as a result.

i know some dudes who don't raelly do any of that. Especially delta NF dudes. . .

[leckysupport]

PS:


i know some dudes who don't raelly do any of that. Especially delta NF dudes. . .

So you're saying testosterone/cultural factors have no affect on Delta NF males?

[UDP]

No. I'm saying I know some delta NF dudes, and other dudes, who are fairly unlike that description. A lot of male SEIs, even, are pretty shitty when it comes to all sorts of money related things, especially 'holding on to it' or actively seeking to horde it.
It was more a question of the validity of the generalization you were making.

"Testosterone", or, if you're getting at 'typical male traits', certainly do not all express themselves the same way in each type, or each person even more so.

(You seem to be making broader and broader generalizations. It is making whatever point you are trying to make less clear. I probably could have done this for other things you said, but this one seemed particularly glaring)

[leckysupport]

It was more a question of the validity of the generalization you were making.

The generalisation was made to make a point and the point is that male traits cause by whatever factors are going to have an affect on EIIs. And there is a good chance it will make them more aware of their place in terms of social dominance however they define it.

"Testosterone", or, if you're getting at 'typical male traits', certainly do not all express themselves the same way in each type, or each person even more so.

Of course not.

I probably could have done this for other things you said

Please, go ahead.

[Marie84]

I mean Fe egos spend a vast amount of time trying to look like "winners" or impressive people.

Fe's know how to use it to their benefit, that's for sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to look like salesmen.
In his case, he's trying to look like a cool, tough, guy and, if he is Fe, he could be using it to further that image

I'm not talking about Quadras having different abilities, but I find Alphas have a habit of keeping wizkid geniuses around them or attempting to be those kinds of geniuses, just as a result of Ne and Ti.

But I was referring to intellectual geniuses, and that isn't quadra related. Yes, a lot of smart Alpa NT's, and even Gamma NT's, are known to be into some stereotypical "wizkid" areas but that's not the whole of NT, just a small group of it.
Just like not all NF's are gifted in the arts or all ST's are good at mechanics

Hobbies on their own are not type related, but relaxing (flow inducing), time wasting hobbies are Si, and passion in relaxing time wasting hobbies is Fe and Si.

Disagree
Even Delta ST appreciate their leisure time and will, thus, enjoy doing things that bring simple Si pleasure that do not accomplish anything outside of that

"Enjoying life" is an activity of a Si (with Fe) type, not a Ne type, Ne types are typically noted as being unable to relax. "Enjoying life" is also one of main messages that comes from ESEs.

Ne types *want* to relax, that's where Si seeking comes in. Ne types very much enjoy, and need, Si comfort but have difficulties creating and applying it, especially Ne dominants.
Ej's, though, have the hardest time relaxing regardless if Si or Ni ego, due to their natural restlessness.
From an Ne creative point of view, I can look very calm while at the same time not feeling relaxed

From my experience with churches, no.

Religious beliefs will obviously affect people differently, for Chapman, it seems to have motivated him to be a better, more forgiving, individual (I don't watch the show but I saw him on Larry King awhile ago)

Yeah, but not always.

Well of course, there will always be situations where one has to initiate, but it's not something introverts enjoy doing, compared to extroverts. That seems to be the general theory in Socionics, at least

that was a good post marie

Thank you

[crazedrat]

what about ENFp

[Creepy-male]

No. I'm saying I know some delta NF dudes, and other dudes, who are fairly unlike that description. A lot of male SEIs, even, are pretty shitty when it comes to all sorts of money related things, especially 'holding on to it' or actively seeking to horde it.
It was more a question of the validity of the generalization you were making.

"Testosterone", or, if you're getting at 'typical male traits', certainly do not all express themselves the same way in each type, or each person even more so.

Funny story, my mum is more of a hoarder than I am, and much more likely to become angry and aggressive (not in a physical way, though). I also know a couple of girls who are more interested in girls than I am.

*raises hand*

Hi. My name's Gul, and I'm an IEE.

[leckysupport]

Fe's know how to use it to their benefit, that's for sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to look like salesmen.
In his case, he's trying to look like a cool, tough, guy and, if he is Fe, he could be using it to further that image

Well, he is failing if that is his aim. I believe the weird saddo impression I get from him is more a feature and not a bug. It isn't something he is trying to fix, he doesn't act like he wants to fix it, he doesn't act like he should fix it (pretty much the definition of ID functions).

Yes, a lot of smart Alpa NT's, and even Gamma NT's, are known to be into some stereotypical "wizkid" areas but that's not the whole of NT, just a small group of it.

A lot less so Gamma NT, Alpha NTs have a habit of showing off their amazing skills in grandiose ways (attempting to look impressive, Fe), just to make sure everyone knows how brilliant, witty and clever they are.

Just like not all NF's are gifted in the arts or all ST's are good at mechanics

I'm not talking about gifts or professions, I talking about attitudes to talent. And IME it is one of the pretty good signs that you might be surrounded by Alphas.

Another non-Alpha feature of both the group and Chapman, is the complete lack of a positive cheery, buddy-buddy attitude. Instead they prefer to be serious and straight forward in the way they go about things.

Even Delta ST appreciate their leisure time and will, thus, enjoy doing things that bring simple Si pleasure that do not accomplish anything outside of that

Sorry, I meant:
Si = relaxing, flow inducing, time wasting hobbies
Si+Fe = passion in relaxing, flow inducing, time wasting hobbies

So we agree.

Ej's, though, have the hardest time relaxing regardless if Si or Ni ego, due to their natural restlessness.

Fictional character Sherlock Holmes made for a lot of leisure time (pipe smoking, sports, violin playing, opera), although he was also prone to working himself out on occasion, he still did what are IMO Si relaxing activities. In Pumping Iron Arnold Schwarzenegger was depicted as the contestant who enjoyed doing what he did and who generally had a more relaxed attitude than the other contestants.

A large amount of ESEs and LSEs defiantly display a lot of Si.

Btw, I think the EJ temperament creates the trainspottery nonsense as described here:

David Mitchell's soap box: Food | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

Religious beliefs will obviously affect people differently, for Chapman, it seems to have motivated him to be a better, more forgiving, individual (I don't watch the show but I saw him on Larry King awhile ago)

He seems to be expressing his faith in a Fi way.

Socionic Types and Spirituality

I know of a ESE who is a Christian, she sits in the front of Church and sings loudly, badly and passionately. She along with my mother (SEI) like to talk about passionate religious experiences and they like to create passionate religious experiences (speaking in tongues, loud 3 hour prayer sessions etc.). She had the ability to talk forever over everyone else, even though her job involved listening to people she still sucked at it. Last I heard of her, she was attempting to start a hospital for sick kids in a war torn nation. IMO she is a very devoted Christian and probably a better person than most.
Although she isn't exactly mean, she still has an attitude of intolerance when it comes to other faiths. So she is still basically acting like a typical ESE, just now she has a more Christian focus.

I know a SLE (maybe LSI) who constantly got into fights and beat his wife. He ended up in prison after a fight and became a Christian there. Now he is a paster in a church who goes on missionary missions (?) to countries where it is very likely he might get killed. He keeps strict rules of how his house and church is run; I once heard he told a guy to stop chewing gum from the pulpit. He puts up people in his house, although if you make one mistake (I think the last guy downloaded porn) he kicks you out. When I first heard of him my guess was that he was addicted to control and he did everything to get in favour with God so he could have more power. So yeah, he is no longer a dangerous and violent person, but the values are still there.

Well of course, there will always be situations where one has to initiate, but it's not something introverts enjoy doing, compared to extroverts. That seems to be the general theory in Socionics, at least

IME if you don't really take much of an initiative in this area nothing happens. So I'm skeptical to how true that part of the theory is.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I can see the ij temperment.

I like how he's all redeemed and stuff but to me guys like that are kinda scary because atonement is so serious and heavy-handed at times. I would say that he's already forgiven himself but I know it's not cut and dry like that. I know you make a mistake like that you feel nothing is really enough to redeem yourself, you get to be like this kinda 'average person' but you don't see the light entirely yet.

It's not so much that murdering is illegal or against the law, alot of LAWS we have are shitty- like the laws about gay people ;p, but- I think it's more about what it does to your conscience (assuming you have one and most people do no matter their choices or what), and killing is pretty big. God what a duh statement. But yeah.

I don't believe in any rules or laws or regulations because anything truly bad already has a natural consequence anyway. Even if you can't feel guilt or empathy for anybody you hurt, it doesn't matter because that in and of itself is it's own punishment. There's no need to really alter or stigmatize what the universe naturally/innately has in place for all living things.

Also his wife or whatever that is kind of annoys me because it's like she's so trailer trash lol. Oh well though.

[Marie84]

Well, he is failing if that is his aim. I believe the weird saddo impression I get from him is more a feature and not a bug. It isn't something he is trying to fix, he doesn't act like he wants to fix it, he doesn't act like he should fix it (pretty much the definition of ID functions).

This actually draws even further away from Se PoLR, since as you pointed out, he seems comfortable and in control of his physical presence

A lot less so Gamma NT, Alpha NTs have a habit of showing off their amazing skills in grandiose ways (attempting to look impressive, Fe), just to make sure everyone knows how brilliant, witty and clever they are.

I suppose this depends on the individual and their personal level of confidence rather than type. Alpha NT's can be shy and awkward as anyone else

Another non-Alpha feature of both the group and Chapman, is the complete lack of a positive cheery, buddy-buddy attitude. Instead they prefer to be serious and straight forward in the way they go about things.

These are stereotypes more than actual quadra qualities as it all depends on mood and the circumstances involved. An Alpha-ish reality show I have seen is "Cake Boss" where the main character is, likely an ESE, and is often very serious and productive, and constantly motivating the people around him.
Alphas can separate "work" and "play" too, especially the adults

Sorry, I meant:
Si = relaxing, flow inducing, time wasting hobbies
Si+Fe = passion in relaxing, flow inducing, time wasting hobbies

Fe is not only about passion or expressing passion. It can mean cheer it can also mean sullenness, cold exteriors or warm ones, etc.
Non-Fe quadras can also be passionate about their hobbies if they bring them pleasure/comfort.

Fictional character Sherlock Holmes made for a lot of leisure time (pipe smoking, sports, violin playing, opera), although he was also prone to working himself out on occasion, he still did what are IMO Si relaxing activities. In Pumping Iron Arnold Schwarzenegger was depicted as the contestant who enjoyed doing what he did and who generally had a more relaxed attitude than the other contestants.

You're right, some LSE's have hobbies that can be productive, but those hobbies generally bring them comfort. Other LSE's may like hobbies that are not productive but make them happy, it's all a matter of personal taste

He seems to be expressing his faith in a Fi way.

What do you mean by this?
If you meant by Ricks Fi spirituality as being "moral perfection" this can also apply to Ti valuers, it's just that they see morality from the perspective of "truth" or at least what they believe to be the truth.
Than again, from the Ti valuers perspective, they may view the Fi-Te valuers view of religion/belief as a bias of their own truth, too

I know of a ESE who is a Christian, she sits in the front of Church and sings loudly, badly and passionately. She along with my mother (SEI) like to talk about passionate religious experiences and they like to create passionate religious experiences (speaking in tongues, loud 3 hour prayer sessions etc.). She had the ability to talk forever over everyone else, even though her job involved listening to people she still sucked at it. Last I heard of her, she was attempting to start a hospital for sick kids in a war torn nation. IMO she is a very devoted Christian and probably a better person than most.
Although she isn't exactly mean, she still has an attitude of intolerance when it comes to other faiths. So she is still basically acting like a typical ESE, just now she has a more Christian focus.

I know a SLE (maybe LSI) who constantly got into fights and beat his wife. He ended up in prison after a fight and became a Christian there. Now he is a paster in a church who goes on missionary missions (?) to countries where it is very likely he might get killed. He keeps strict rules of how his house and church is run; I once heard he told a guy to stop chewing gum from the pulpit. He puts up people in his house, although if you make one mistake (I think the last guy downloaded porn) he kicks you out. When I first heard of him my guess was that he was addicted to control and he did everything to get in favour with God so he could have more power. So yeah, he is no longer a dangerous and violent person, but the values are still there.

I see what you mean, but not all Fe valuers are like this.

IME if you don't really take much of an initiative in this area nothing happens. So I'm skeptical to how true that part of the theory is.

Indeed, but it's one of the bad parts about being Se PoLR, the stagnation and lack of being proactive with ones own life

"They can be passive and self-absorbed, often preferring to wait for things to happen rather than make them happen. As such, they tend to have quite a number of lost opportunities.

Outsiders often think the EII is oblivious to reality because they will often neglect basic needs. Although it is by no means necessary, this may also manifest itself as a general rejection or aversion to violence or force as a means or way of life."


"The LII does not like being simply told "get real" or "get off your duff", which he views as crude, intrusive, and insulting. He prefers to be left alone - or better, included in an atmosphere of open discussion that is receptive to his thoughts and thereby inspire him to develop them more.

If the LII has a problem that cannot be solved intellectually, but requires direct personal confrontation, he may resort to total avoidance rather than approaching the person directly, which he tends to think will produce only frustration and contempt. The LII thinks that, in an ideal world, everyone would just listen to reason instead of insisting on having their own way."

[07490]

Duane the bounty hunter is probably an LSE.

[leckysupport]

This actually draws even further away from Se PoLR, since as you pointed out, he seems comfortable and in control of his physical presence

What do you mean by this?

These are stereotypes more than actual quadra qualities as it all depends on mood and the circumstances involved.

If working, Alpha SFs will just get on with what they're doing IME, but in between work when they are just hanging around they will likely go into the chummy, light-hearted jokes mode. I also find their social strategy of making friends and networking evolves around this kind of attitude.
I know of one ESE who keeps a near constant jovial demeanour, (only with exceptions for social mood) even when he lost his job. He seems to me to just happily move on from one stage of his life to another. But that ESE is in his 50s, so maybe things faze him less than others.

I think it is both a stereotype and Alpha SF value, but then again we're dealing with socionics and there are many ways for a type to be expressed. So yeah, it is difficult to pin point one manifestation which applies for all of a type. That is why I'm coming up with many manifestations which most strongly correlate with ESE as a argument against ESE.

An Alpha-ish reality show I have seen is "Cake Boss" where the main character is, likely an ESE, and is often very serious and productive, and constantly motivating the people around him.

I agree he looks like a ESE from the video clips on youtube. But I'm not entirely sure about the social dynamics because I haven't seen the show.

Fe is not only about passion or expressing passion. It can mean cheer it can also mean sullenness, cold exteriors or warm ones, etc.

Yeah.

Non-Fe quadras can also be passionate about their hobbies if they bring them pleasure/comfort.

True, but when the poems start, hero worshipping, trickling tears, and in some cases this expression comes before the thing they are passionate about. We might be dealing with Fe.

You're right, some LSE's have hobbies that can be productive, but those hobbies generally bring them comfort. Other LSE's may like hobbies that are not productive but make them happy, it's all a matter of personal taste

My point being this isn't a manifestation of Si that Chapman partakes in, thus making it less likely he is a ESE.

If you meant by Ricks Fi spirituality as being "moral perfection" this can also apply to Ti valuers, it's just that they see morality from the perspective of "truth" or at least what they believe to be the truth.

Ricks description didn't mention moral perfection, but correct moral attitude to everything -- people, God and events. So in Chapmans case: "knowing what I know about criminals, what moral attitude should I have towards them".

Than again, from the Ti valuers perspective, they may view the Fi-Te valuers view of religion/belief as a bias of their own truth, too

I'm finding a lot of Deltas with truth based philosophies, the basic idea behind Sherlock Holmes (written by a EII) is about the exact truth and Silent Witness too has a similar idea behind it. Both having characters which are Deltas IMO strongly pressing such ideas. I know a IEE who told me he didn't believe in the idea that the a glass was half-full or half-empty. The glass had just had the exact amount of water in it, meaning pessimism and optimism didn't matter, only the truth. Rick too has a scientific outlook, which is some form of truth based philosophy.

"They can be passive and self-absorbed, often preferring to wait for things to happen rather than make them happen. As such, they tend to have quite a number of lost opportunities.

Outsiders often think the EII is oblivious to reality because they will often neglect basic needs. Although it is by no means necessary, this may also manifest itself as a general rejection or aversion to violence or force as a means or way of life."


"The LII does not like being simply told "get real" or "get off your duff", which he views as crude, intrusive, and insulting. He prefers to be left alone - or better, included in an atmosphere of open discussion that is receptive to his thoughts and thereby inspire him to develop them more.

If the LII has a problem that cannot be solved intellectually, but requires direct personal confrontation, he may resort to total avoidance rather than approaching the person directly, which he tends to think will produce only frustration and contempt. The LII thinks that, in an ideal world, everyone would just listen to reason instead of insisting on having their own way."

Yeah, I'm just skeptical of the idea that EIIs can't be socially active.

[Marie84]

What do you mean by this?

Intuitive types tend to be more doubtful about their appearance compared to sensory types. That's just a part of the reason that explains why sensors are the dominant ones in intimate circumstances

My point being this isn't a manifestation of Si that Chapman partakes in, thus making it less likely he is a ESE.

I'm not really making a case for him being an ESE, he may actually be an LSE. I just wanted to point out some of the misconceptions about Fe types

I'm finding a lot of Deltas with truth based philosophies, the basic idea behind Sherlock Holmes (written by a EII) is about the exact truth and Silent Witness too has a similar idea behind it. Both having characters which are Deltas IMO strongly pressing such ideas.

I know a IEE who told me he didn't believe in the idea that the a glass was half-full or half-empty. The glass had just had the exact amount of water in it, meaning pessimism and optimism didn't matter, only the truth. Rick too has a scientific outlook, which is some form of truth based philosophy

Arthur Conan Doyle? He's been typed as a benchmark LSE

"Truth", as in, the consistency of information, is a concept that Ti valuers are more concerned with than Te ones.
Te quadras are more concerned with pragmatics

It's inevitable in any theory that one has to use Ti to analyze and categorize, so perhaps that's what you're seeing in Ricks site...?
But comparing his NeFi view of Socionics to a more Ti based one like Smilingeyes Ricks is far less theoretically based

Yeah, I'm just skeptical of the idea that EIIs can't be socially active.

I didn't say EII's can't be social, rather they don't tend to initiate social situations unless they're aware of being wanted/accepted.
Even so, EII's are still introverts and thus need more solitude than social interaction or else they'll burn themselves out.

[xerx]

I know of a ESE who is a Christian, she sits in the front of Church and sings loudly, badly and passionately. She along with my mother (SEI) like to talk about passionate religious experiences and they like to create passionate religious experiences (speaking in tongues, loud 3 hour prayer sessions etc.). She had the ability to talk forever over everyone else, even though her job involved listening to people she still sucked at it. Last I heard of her, she was attempting to start a hospital for sick kids in a war torn nation. IMO she is a very devoted Christian and probably a better person than most.
Although she isn't exactly mean, she still has an attitude of intolerance when it comes to other faiths. So she is still basically acting like a typical ESE, just now she has a more Christian focus.

Can you explain what sort of intolerance you think she has?

I know a SLE (maybe LSI) who constantly got into fights and beat his wife. He ended up in prison after a fight and became a Christian there. Now he is a paster in a church who goes on missionary missions (?) to countries where it is very likely he might get killed. He keeps strict rules of how his house and church is run; I once heard he told a guy to stop chewing gum from the pulpit. He puts up people in his house, although if you make one mistake (I think the last guy downloaded porn) he kicks you out. When I first heard of him my guess was that he was addicted to control and he did everything to get in favour with God so he could have more power. So yeah, he is no longer a dangerous and violent person, but the values are still there.

I don't know this guy, but why is something like this necessarily associated with power, and not with simply wanting to run a tight ship by enforcing the rules? Chewing gum in church might be construed as a sign that the guy isn't paying attention to the sermon and won't be saved, or something like that. Downloading porn is basically a hard-coded sin in most of Christianity.

[xerx]

Another non-Alpha feature of both the group and Chapman, is the complete lack of a positive cheery, buddy-buddy attitude. Instead they prefer to be serious and straight forward in the way they go about things.

I agree that Chapman probably isn't alpha, but the rest is a bit of a misconception. I have never witnessed an alpha group that was buddy-buddy, and I would never want to join such a useless, hackneyed group. I presume you mean a group where the conversation non-jokingly turns towards positive affirmations of friendship and support between different members.

The only time I've ever seen something like that was between cops and firemen sitting at a restaurant. Also one time at an alanon meeting.

[leckysupport]

Can you explain what sort of intolerance you think she has?

She believes the beliefs of Muslims (and others I can't remember) are stupid and misguided, she believes they can't have morals and their traditions are moronic.

I don't know this guy, but why is something like this necessarily associated with power, and not with simply wanting to run a tight ship by enforcing the rules? Chewing gum in church might be construed as a sign that the guy isn't paying attention to the sermon and won't be saved, or something like that.

I linked his 'getting into fights' behaviour with the desire to control situations around himself. And then I just expanded it out to his strict and life-threatening adherence to his religion and then claimed he wanted control over his life situation by following God. I could easily be wrong, but that is what I thought at the time.

I agree that Chapman probably isn't alpha, but the rest is a bit of a misconception. I have never witnessed an alpha group that was buddy-buddy, and I would never want to join such a useless, hackneyed group. I presume you mean a group where the conversation non-jokingly turns towards positive affirmations of friendship and support between different members.

I was trying to describe the attitude that Bionic has on the forum (but a more exaggerated version); even when Bionic was attempting to ruin McNews life and career he still seemed light-hearted and cheerful about the whole thing.

[leckysupport]

Intuitive types tend to be more doubtful about their appearance compared to sensory types. That's just a part of the reason that explains why sensors are the dominant ones in intimate circumstances

Whether or not you look like a loser or not is more of social perception and not really a question of aesthetics. EIEs are famous for acting out different social roles and creating different images for themselves (i.e sexy librarian, IT entrepreneur etc.).

Arthur Conan Doyle? He's been typed as a benchmark LSE

I have a whole set of reasons for that typing that I don't want to go into now.

"Truth", as in, the consistency of information, is a concept that Ti valuers are more concerned with than Te ones.

Yep.

It's inevitable in any theory that one has to use Ti to analyze and categorize, so perhaps that's what you're seeing in Ricks site...?

I think it steams from his past with rejecting Mormonism, rather than socionics, but the idea stuck with him. Anyway with some Deltas I'm talking about 'real' truth (ofc I'm bias), not in terms of logical consistency but what actually happens in reality.

I didn't say EII's can't be social, rather they don't tend to initiate social situations unless they're aware of being wanted/accepted.
Even so, EII's are still introverts and thus need more solitude than social interaction or else they'll burn themselves out.

The Socionist: Introverted Extratims and Extraverted Introtims

^^ I'm not trying to prove anything here, I'm just linking for the sake of it.

[xerx]

She believes the beliefs of Muslims (and others I can't remember) are stupid and misguided, she believes they can't have morals and their traditions are moronic.

If she's accepted a premise whereby only members of that religion go to heaven, then by definition, anyone not part of that religion will go to hell. It could be that she's applying a system in a draconian, black and white fashion, which is pretty consistent with Ti DS.

An LII dual with enough knowledge of both religions can highlight abundant similarities, possibly with the goal of reconciling any differences, though possibly not if no such similarities exist.

I don't know anything about religion, so I don't know if she's espousing the correct doctrine towards non believers in this case.

The "traditions are moronic" bit just sounds like she doesn't get out much and isn't very bright.


Anyway from what I've seen, differences in belief won't necessarily prevent her from being warm and loving to a non-believer if that's what she wants. Her Fe should override the DS, so the issue is immaterial.

[xerx]

I was trying to describe the attitude that Bionic has on the forum (but a more exaggerated version); even when Bionic was attempting to ruin McNews life and career he still seemed light-hearted and cheerful about the whole thing.

I see your point. That's a slightly more common attitude among alpha-irrational types. It's witty/spontaneous. I would agree with lighthearted, but I'm not sure about cheerful. In fact, we were all extremely disappointed in McNew.

I linked his 'getting into fights' behaviour with the desire to control situations around himself. And then I just expanded it out to his strict and life-threatening adherence to his religion and then claimed he wanted control over his life situation by following God. I could easily be wrong, but that is what I thought at the time.

That's a bit of an assumption.

[leckysupport]

That's a bit of an assumption.

Indeed it is.

[Marie84]

Whether or not you look like a loser or not is more of social perception and not really a question of aesthetics.

EIEs are famous for acting out different social roles and creating different images for themselves (i.e sexy librarian, IT entrepreneur etc.).

I'm referring to how someone reacts to their appearance and surroundings. Sensors are just better at being confident in more physical aspects such as appearance. Perhaps that Intuitive who act out a certain way are just doing so to cover their insecurities...?

I have a whole set of reasons for that typing that I don't want to go into now.

For LSE or EII?

Anyway with some Deltas I'm talking about 'real' truth (ofc I'm bias), not in terms of logical consistency but what actually happens in reality.

I suppose that depends on if the "truth" will accomplish anything. Being "right" for the sake of being "right" is unproductive and pompous

The Socionist: Introverted Extratims and Extraverted Introtims

I suppose that theory may depend on the circumstances. Fe creatives may appear more social, Ne's more silly, Se's more authoritative, etc, which may appear extroverted. Even so, at the end of the day, I would imagine, all introverts need their space from social stimuli compared to actual extroverts.
But this is just my theory


btw Akra, I think that was a good analogy

[leckysupport]

Perhaps that Intuitive who act out a certain way are just doing so to cover their insecurities...?

No idea what they're doing exactly, you would have to ask one of them.

For LSE or EII?

For EII.

Being "right" for the sake of being "right" is unproductive and pompous

What do you mean by this?

[Marie84]

For EII.

Why EII for Doyle?

What do you mean by this?

If being "right" is only going to serve your ego while "smiting" your enemies than it's entirely pompous, from my point of view at least.
My LSI father, for instance, views on this are polar to mine, with him wanting to enforce "correctness" and "the truth". I find this type of Ti+Se thinking hard-headed and counterproductive, especially if the information is based on personal beiliefs more so than actual proof

[leckysupport]

Why EII for Doyle?

I really didn't want to do this, but...

It is common wisdom that Sherlock is a LSE and Watson is an EII.

Most of the stories are written from Watson’s personal point of view and not Sherlock’s. This means that Doyle had great insight into how EIIs think and feel, to the point that he could re-create how an EII thinks to himself. Sherlock is viewed from a distance, as if the viewer is watching him react rather than having a perspective of how he feels from moment to moment. According to Doyle, Sherlock is based on Joseph Bell (a more obvious LSE), so Sherlock’s ideas are not Doyle’s ideas.

Doyle as a joke used to answer fan mail signed "Dr. John Watson".

So in terms of "the path of least resistance" it would be easier for him to write like he did as a EII rather than a LSE.

Morally Doyle was particularly active for someone in the late 1800s.

*He was against the practice of seal clubbing
*And the Congo Free State

I find that some Delta NF are typically involved in novel moral causes that seem to pass others by, for example I know a EII who is involved in a group against discrimination of dog breeds. Something that I hadn't even realised was a thing one could care about.

According to his biography he was quite erratic in his behaviour, for example he volunteered to go off to War as army Doctor and worked on a seal hunting/fishing ship. And always came back home poor; in fact he was always poor despite being a Doctor. IMO LSEs are less likely to go off on such adventures if they have settle into a comfortable place and I would expect LSEs to look after their monetary interests a bit better if they did go into these kinds of adventures. Si likes to make things smooth and comfortable, Doyle on the other hand sort of doesn't bother.