The Lion King

[Aleksei]

Simba- EIE-Se, 7w8 sx/sp (ENFP)
Scar- IEI-Te, 3w4 sp/sx (ENTJ)
Mufasa- ESI-Fi, 2w1 so/sx (INFJ)
Sarabi- EII-Si, s9w8 sx/so (ISFJ)
Nala- IEI-Se, 7w8 sx/sp (ENFP)
Timon- ILE-Si, 7w6 sp/sx (ENTP)
Pumbaa- ESE-Si, 7w6 sp/sx (ESFP)
Zazu- LSE-Ti, p6w5 so/sp (ISTJ)
Rafiki- IEI-Ne, 4w5 so/sx (INFJ)
Shenzi- LSE-Te, 8w7 sp/so (ESTP)
Banzai- SLE-Se, 7w8 sp/sx (ESTP)
Ed- ESE-Se. 7w8 sp/sx (ESFP)

[pianosinger]

Waiting for Galen to show up...

[DirectorAbbie]

What's with the subtypes?

[Pa3s]

Waiting for Galen to show up...

LOL, yeah. He'll probably kill you, Aleksei.
(seriously)

[717495]

It's not nice to mess with peoples' PoLR.

[Aleksei]

LOL, yeah. He'll probably kill you, Aleksei.
(seriously)

Bah, I can take him.

[Pa3s]

Bah, I can take him.

...still wouldn't bet on you to win.

[Aleksei]

I have Simba on my side. :wink:

[Aleksei]

What's with the subtypes?

8-subtype system.

[Galen]

Bah, I can take him.

You haven't done it yet, why should I have any reason to believe you'll do it now?

From what I saw in our PMs, your reasoning for their types are based on poor knowledge of the story itself, a miserably stereotyped understanding of socionics, a faulty understanding of enneagram, and what appears to me to be a poor ability to understand the nature of relationships between two people, which feeds into your poor understanding of the story.



btw my current typings of the characters are as follows:
Simba: Fi-ENFp 6w5 sx/sp
Nala: Te-ISTp 5w6?
Mufasa: Te-ESTj 8w9
Serabi: INFj? 6w5? We barely see her so it's hard to tell
Scar: Ni-ENFj Enneatype is harder because I don't really understand his motivation
Rafiki: Ne-INFj 9w?
Timon: Ne-ENTp 7w6?
Pumbaa: Si-ISFp? Neither Pumbaa's nor Timon's character are really fleshed out, but they both have this immense air of Alpha about them.
Zazu: ESFj? Again, his character isn't detailed or analyzed all that much

[Aleksei]

From what I saw in our PMs, your reasoning for their types are based on poor knowledge of the story itself

I re-watched the movie yesterday, which is why for example, I re-typed Mufasa ESI and Scar IEI (Scar spends half the damn movie sitting on his ass). I am not budging on Simba's type, and see no reasonable justification for typing him anything but EIE.

a miserably stereotyped understanding of socionics

I rely entirely on what Socionics IM elements are defined by the creators of Socionics as being. It's not my fault that you think all human behavior is universal...

[Aleksei]

Simba: Fi-ENFp 6w5 sx/sp

I already argued at length against this typing, and I only have one thing to add to it: your earlier argument about Hakuna Matata and relaxation is bullshit. Hakuna Matata has nothing to do with relaxation -- it is simply not giving a fuck, which EIEs can easily do. The movie shows exactly one instance of Simba relaxing, which happend after he ate, and during which he did not simply enjoy the moment as an valuing type would in such a situation. Instead he looked up at the stars and felt nostalgia (which is an theme -- evocative memories are related to Ni).

Nala: Te-ISTp 5w6?

There is no way Nala is not an Ethical type. She is essentially equal to Simba in most every way -- as playful, emotionally expressive and emotionally driven as he is. The reason I type her an introvert is because she seems more subdued than the incredibly bombastic Simba. She is, at minimum, very, very far from Fe-PoLR. If she and Simba were Deltas I'd actually type him IEE-Se, and her IEE-Fi.

Mufasa: Te-ESTj 8w9

I actually could understand where you would draw this typing (Socionics anyway). However, I still disagree with it.

On Enneagram: Mufasa appears unconcerned with control and independence, and is merely concerned with taking care of his kingdom, which is a 2 or a 1 motivation. He is further largely unafraid of confrontation when it is necessary, which rules out wing-9. 8w9s are never outwardly confrontational, but instead manipulate people into doing what they want. 9s and wing-9s experience rage upon being challenged, but not display this rage and outwardly suppress it to keep the peace. Mufasa, on the other hand, displays the opposite behavior: Snarled at Scar when Scar implied that he'd harm him, but then later revealed that all he felt was disappointment. If he's not 2w1 (or 1w2), then he's an 8w7, and the single most healthy example of an 8 in fiction.

On Socionics: Mufasa is in fact more aggressive and assertive than I'd expect an EII to be, but he's a fairly playful person; seems to enjoy tormenting Zazu every bit as much as his valuing kid does, which is a strong point against role and suggestive: LSEs and LIEs are stiff, strong, businesslike people. Have trouble letting loose and having fun. Given that, and given the fact he is anyway a less energetic and proactive person than I'd expect an EJ to be, I think ESI fits best.

Serabi: INFj? 6w5? We barely see her so it's hard to tell

9w8. The single most salient feature in her portrayal is complete outwardly calm and conciliatory behavior.

Scar: Ni-ENFj Enneatype is harder because I don't really understand his motivation

Scar should be one of the easiest characters there to Enneatype. Be Prepared is basically about his core motivation:

Is simply why I'll
Be king undisputed
Respected, saluted
And seen for the wonder I am
Yes, my teeth and ambitions are bared
Be prepared!

Bolded: E3 motivation. Scar feels frustrated that he plays second fiddle to Mufasa, and thus desires to depose him and be seen in all his glory as ruler. I initially believed he was 8w7, but he wants to be seen as successful, which is 3 in nature.

On Socionics: IP temperament. If you watch the movie, Scar is mobilized maybe a third of the time. For the vast majority of the movie he's sitting on his ass, by himself, looking bored. He's an extroverted introvert (and indeed I type him an extrovert in MBTI), he enjoys barking orders and tormenting Zazu, but he's still an introvert.

Rafiki: Ne-INFj 9w?

IEI-Ne 4w5. He's spacey, very playful and largely unconcerned about offending people (a behavior that does not fit the definition and I have never seen an leading type display -- I remember recently laghlagh had some trouble coming up with type-related insults for a thread I made on it).

Timon: Ne-ENTp 7w6?

Yes. Glad you could get one type right at least...

Pumbaa: Si-ISFp? Neither Pumbaa's nor Timon's character are really fleshed out, but they both have this immense air of Alpha about them.

Si-ESE. Pumbaa is way too energetic and open for an introverted introvert.

Zazu: ESFj? Again, his character isn't detailed or analyzed all that much

Zazu is a stuffy fucking piece of shit, and every Fe-valuer in the movie (and even non-Fe valuers) had him as butt monkey for that precise reason. Zazu is an LSE-Ti.

[glam]

Psychology is a very malleable thing: given the circumstance (childhood experiences, religious beliefs, culture, etc), anyone should be capable of doing anything.

it matters how people do things: what they prefer doing (Ego block), what they do not like doing (Super-ego), what they want help with (Super-id), and what they do automatically (Id).

we can't read people's minds, but people's behavior is reflective of how they think. it is the best information we have to determine someone's type - this includes how they interact with other people, which will show their intertype relations.

Neither Pumbaa's nor Timon's character are really fleshed out, but they both have this immense air of Alpha about them.

stereotype much?

[Aleksei]

He's actually completely right. Which is funny because he's the one harping on about stereotypes here.

About Timon and Pumbaa that is.

[717495]

I like those explanations.

[Galen]

There's too much to argue here so I'll stick with the main points.

I already argued at length against this typing, and I only have one thing to add to it: your earlier argument about Hakuna Matata and relaxation is bullshit. Hakuna Matata has nothing to do with relaxation -- it is simply not giving a fuck, which EIEs can easily do.

Which anybody can do. I ask any and all members of this forum to raise their hands if they have not given a fuck about something at one point in your lives.

Also I don't know what movie you're watching, but the Timon and Pumbaa world seems pretty damn relaxed: I imagine anybody would relax were they in a position of "no worries for the rest of your days".

The movie shows exactly one instance of Simba relaxing, which happend after he ate, and during which he did not simply enjoy the moment as an valuing type would in such a situation.

You're looking at the way small details and fail to look at the big picture of the film. He's pretty relaxed at the beginning of the film, before the part where Mufasa died. He in Hakuna Matata world his life is nothing but rest and relaxation. All other parts are just him filled with anxst or regret, so of course he won't be relaxed then.

Instead he looked up at the stars and felt nostalgia (which is an theme -- evocative memories are related to Ni).

How are you so uninformed of what it means to be a human? All people are capable of remembering things, this is not type related in the least. If you have a brain and some semblance of emotion, you can have evocative memories.

Furthermore, Simba wasn't simply "feeling nostalic," he was miserably guilty about what he believes he's done to his father.

On Enneagram: Mufasa appears unconcerned with control and independence, and is merely concerned with taking care of his kingdom, which is a 2 or a 1 motivation.

I still don't see how this isn't an 8 motivation.

He is further largely unafraid of confrontation when it is necessary, which rules out wing-9. 8w9s are never outwardly confrontational, but instead manipulate people into doing what they want.

wtf yes they can. My dad is an 8w9 and he has no problem with confrontation in the 8 sense of the word. Regardless of the wing, that style of confrontation is such an E8 way to be.

Scar should be one of the easiest characters there to Enneatype. Be Prepared is basically about his core motivation:

Bolded: E3 motivation. Scar feels frustrated that he plays second fiddle to Mufasa, and thus desires to depose him and be seen in all his glory as ruler. I initially believed he was 8w7, but he wants to be seen as successful, which is 3 in nature.

Hmm, this makes sense.

Yes. Glad you could get one type right at least...

Okay seriously, stop being so condescending. It's really hard to have a serious conversation with you when you're being this childish.


Z

azu is a stuffy fucking piece of shit, and every Fe-valuer in the movie (and even non-Fe valuers) had him as butt monkey for that precise reason. Zazu is an LSE-Ti.

Fe doesn't mean "not being stuffy or uptight," again you're delving into stereotypes.

[Aleksei]

Which anybody can do. I ask any and all members of this forum to raise their hands if they have not given a fuck about something at one point in your lives.

My point precisely, thank you for agreeing with me. He was not looking for relaxation, he was merely looking for escape. And he found it. Ergo, Hakuna Matata is not type-related, and not a valid argument towards him being IEE.

Also I don't know what movie you're watching, but the Timon and Pumbaa world seems pretty damn relaxed: I imagine anybody would relax were they in a position of "no worries for the rest of your days".

That's Timon and Pumbaa. Both Si-valuing, and in fact both Si-subtype. We're talking about Simba here.

You're looking at the way small details and fail to look at the big picture of the film. He's pretty relaxed at the beginning of the film, before the part where Mufasa died. He in Hakuna Matata world his life is nothing but rest and relaxation. All other parts are just him filled with anxst or regret, so of course he won't be relaxed then.

Simba was most definitely not relaxed. Simba's attitude as a kid: WOOHOO! I'M GONNA BE KING, AND ZAZU WILL BE MY BITCH! LET'S GO RUSH INTO THE ELEPHANT GRAVEYARD, NALA!

That is not relaxation. That is being high on cocaine.

How are you so uninformed of what it means to be a human? All people are capable of remembering things, this is not type related in the least. If you have a brain and some semblance of emotion, you can have evocative memories.

Furthermore, Simba wasn't simply "feeling nostalic," he was miserably guilty about what he believes he's done to his father.

Ni:

is associated with memory, uncertainty, state of mind, understanding trends or ongoing processes, incommunicability of subjective mental images, and a state of inertia. If types are likely to branch out and explore all possible concepts to find something interesting, types are likely to replay the conceptual associations that they have already made in their head. They may mentally replay things that have happened from their past or especially focus on the importance of concepts in memory, especially those relating to their personal history.

Naturally all people have memory, and indeed all people have somewhere in their psyche, but some people prefer it -- and/or are more adept at it -- more than others. hence types are differentiated. An valuing type, racked with guilt and looking to escape it all as he was, would simply block the pain out and enjoy the moment, as Pumbaa and Timon were doing. He couldn't.

I still don't see how this isn't an 8 motivation.

wtf yes they can. My dad is an 8w9 and he has no problem with confrontation in the 8 sense of the word. Regardless of the wing, that style of confrontation is such an E8 way to be.

Now who's ascribing nonexistent stereotypes to a type? Confrontation is not an exclusively 8 phenomenon, even if 8 is the most confrontational of all types. 8 is defined, nothing more and nothing less, by a desire to not be controlled. Mufasa did not seem to display such a desire, and did on the other hand gush forth about his perfect, beautiful kingdom.

Actually you know what I think he's a 1w2.

Fe doesn't mean "not being stuffy or uptight," again you're delving into stereotypes.

Pray tell then, what is Fe?

That's all a nice idea, but problems often arise in how or what behaviors get interpreted as type-relevant. I mean, take one of Aleksei's points about Scar being IEI "because he sits on his ass so much." Come on lol.

relaxed
go-with-the-flow
finds it easy to spend long periods of time in no activity, or at very low levels of energy
movements are flexible, unhurried
little inclination towards fidgetiness when having to remain inactive for longer periods
IPs are both dynamic and irrational, so they see reality as in continuous, gradual, often imperceptible change. An IP is soothed by this, seeing reality through his leading function. This leads to a relaxed inclination to take things as they come and adapt to them.
As introverts, IPs tend to be relaxed and somewhat passive about initiating relationships with other people, mostly assuming that others will take the initiative.

proactive
restless
difficult to relax unless tired
walk tends to be quick-paced and "purposeful", as well as stiff
"calmly energetic" with few intense variations in the level of energy during the day
inclined to fidget when forced to remain inactive for long periods
EJs are both dynamic and rational, so they see reality as in continuous, gradual, often imperceptible change. At the same time, an EJ has his own views of what reality "should" be. This inclines him to be quick to take action, normally using his leading function, in order to make sure things will remain, or become, as they should be, before change can get too far.
As extroverts, EJs tend to feel that it is up to them to initiate contacts with other people, whether in the context of establishing or maintaining a relationship. They will not necessarily act on that, though, and sometimes wish others would take over this role.

Scar:




now, which of those descriptions does this resemble?

Though mind, this is the single typing I care about least. I actually want Scar to be my type, because Scar is fucking awesome.

[Aleksei]

As I said, if Mufasa is not a 2 or a 1, he is the healthiest 8w7 character ever to be created.

He's probably a 1, though. He seems, as I said already, unconcerned with maintaining his own independence, and quite concerned with maintaining the delicate balance of the ecosystem of the pride -- with perfection.

Memory and nostalgia have absolutely nothing to do with IEs.

Augusta obviously disagrees. I agree with Augusta, who, um... created Socionics and is thus trustworthy about what the model entails.

[Aleksei]

Funny, because so far in that thread the egos seem to be doing a better job at coming up with offensive characterizations.

types are all that's posting because they seem to be all that's left in this forum. I said, mind, leading.

[Aleksei]

The link you posted explicitly correlates Ni with time perception. It references "roots in the past," And the correlation between events that follow each-other - so it'd easily perceive the connection between the past and the present. Which Simba was doing in that scene, perceiving how he lived then versus how he lived now.

And, no, 8w7. There is nothing 9-ish about his behavior, at all.

[Aleksei]

Wait what?

The exchange:

You (on the wall debate): Simba lived by Hakuna Matata -- the very embodiment of physical relaxation.
Me: Hakuna Matata has nothing to do with relaxation and everything to do with not giving a fuck, which is not related to Si.
You: HAH! Not giving a fuck is not type related.
Me: ...yeah that's what I just said.

That is called "being a kid" and "being an extrovert." Physical relaxation and emotional relaxation are two very different things, I can't tell which one you're talking about.

Physical. Simba is a little petard.

lol wtf that's one of the worse descriptions of Ni I've ever read.

Then let's try the one Ashton linked on for size. Ni is time intuition -- it is thought processing intimately related to the passage of time, and is thus linked to a strengthened focus on foresight and memory. In a quiet moment of contemplation, Simba's memories came back connected to something his dad told him as a kid (pulling away from the motivation of merely enjoying the sensation of lying there under the stars).

/ valuers aren't repressive by nature. That's a difference of personality and not type.

Personality defines type.

An understanding of things in the world as containing discrete, internal, subjective characteristics that are constantly changing and in flux.

Now in English.

When did Augusta suggest anything like that?

She sort of said it right where Ashton linked...

[Galen]

The exchange:

You (on the wall debate): Simba lived by Hakuna Matata -- the very embodiment of physical relaxation.
Me: Hakuna Matata has nothing to do with relaxation and everything to do with not giving a fuck, which is not related to Si.
You: HAH! Not giving a fuck is not type related.
Me: ...yeah that's what I just said.

I never claimed that Hakuna Matata was about not giving a fuck; that's what you said. I don't hold what you say about Hakuna Matata to be true, so it's not a contradiction as far as I'm concerned.

Physical. Simba is a little petard.

An explosive device used to break down a gate or wall?
I still don't see how this is related to anything other than extroversion.

Then let's try the one Ashton linked on for size. Ni is time intuition -- it is thought processing intimately related to the passage of time, and is thus linked to a strengthened focus on foresight and memory. In a quiet moment of contemplation, Simba's memories came back connected to something his dad told him as a kid (pulling away from the motivation of merely enjoying the sensation of lying there under the stars).

It's linked to an style of foresight and memory, not just foresight and memory in general.

Personality defines type.

Now in English.

That link Ashton posted seems to do the job pretty well.

She sort of said it right where Ashton linked...

Neither the words "memory" nor "nostalgia" appear anywhere in that link, in reference to any IE.

[Galen]

[...]

Also I would request that this thread be split off from where it stops talking about Lion King.


=> http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=33757 <=

[Pa3s]

So yeah... never actually seen the film. Is it cool or what?

[717495]

You've never seen The Lion King? Not when you were young? : O


...I don't watch movies or TV much, but this is almost like an exception.

[ashlesha]

i almost cant stand it bc of what scar does to simba. serious sadness. i didnt even fully comprehend what was going on when i saw the movie as a kid, i was probably not emotionally equipped to handle it or something. ahhhh.

its a great movie, yeah.

also idk the characters types but i know that sometimes i feel nostalgic and sometimes i want to relax and sometimes i dont give a fuck.

[Pa3s]

You've never seen The Lion King? Not when you were young? : O

Oh, I watched a lot of TV and films as a child, especially Disney stuff. I've seen most TV series and several movies, but I somehow missed The Lion King, I don't know why.

[marooned]

the hakuna matada thing says something about how timon and pumba are happy living (they came up with this "lifestyle" on their own - although really what else are they supposed to do? there's like nothing to do) and it does seem rather Si focused i guess. simba was just an impressionable kid who absorbs everything like a sponge and he had no where to go so he stayed with them and lived their way and it provided him an escape as Aleksei mentioned. i don't see this really saying anything about simba's type or having to mean simba is Si DS or Si valuing. (i kind of saw simba as SEEish)

it reminds me of mowgli almost (don't have an opinion on mowgli's type or think this has anything to do with that) who was also impressionable and absorbed info like a sponge and was happy to adapt to baloo's way of life and the vulture's way of life and learn to be like them (just anyone who would take him in and give him a way of life). i mean i see it as just a sort of typical "child character" looking for adult guidance (although i mean mowgli stubbornly wants to stay in the jungle where as simba has more of a screw it my life is over attitude and an absence of wanting anything because of what happened... but i would say mowgli is a more headstrong and stubborn character in general and more likely to stage little rebellions).

i would also say that simba's adopted way of life as he grows up is more about running away from the things he can't face than it is about a need to seek "relaxation." he has forgotten "who he is" and his responsibility as "king" in favor of a living in the moment screw-it way of life where he doesn't have to remember and can simply enjoy the moment. this isn't beneficial to his well-being (other characters pushing him to face it and trying to remind him of who he is does actually help him). timon and pumba were safe because they didn't know who he was and they didn't push him so they just inadvertently helped him sink further into running away from himself. it seems kind of E7-ish perhaps (with simba).

with timon and pumba they just don't have a reason to do anything else (and after they realize the situation i think they were more than willing to help simba if i remember right, though perhaps there could have been some resistance at first because of not wanting to lose him or feeling abandoned by him or something).

[DirectorAbbie]

I'd say Zazu is a definite square (LXX).

I'm with Arctures on this one, primarily because I think having 8 subtypes is stupid.

[World Socionics]

Rafiki is definitely not an EII, he's all about using to motivate people to fulfill their destiny .
I would agree with Aleksei on this one, although I'm not going to use this odd subtyping system of his.

Now, Rafiki being an IEI, we can see that Scar's typing of IEI by Aleksei looks a little odd. While Rafiki conforms to the IEI mold of following and guiding a leader rather than having the determination to become one himself, Scar very clearly wants to actively achieve his aspirations himself, pointing at an EJ temperament. For this reason, I would agree with Galen in typing him EIE. The accepting subtype (Ni) does explain why he's a little more lazy than your standard (Fe) subtype of EIE.

As for Simba, I am reasonably confident he does not have in his ego, indeed his approach is in stark contrast to that of his uncle, doing what is ethically correct and proper rather than being expressive beyond that. Indeed his playful Ne + Fi (Fe-demonstrative) personality that was shown when he was younger quickly disappears when the situation changes, showing a serious rather than merry type. Thus, I would agree with Galen that Simba is an IEE. This also fits the mold of most Disney movies, with the hero being a Delta and the villain a Beta.

[Galen]

As for Simba, I am reasonably confident he does not have in his ego, indeed his approach is in stark contrast to that of his uncle, doing what is ethically correct and proper rather than being expressive beyond that.

How is Simba's character particularly ethical in any way? As far as I can tell he's much more concerned with understanding his place in the world, as opposed to acting in a supposedly "correct" manner.

[World Socionics]

How is Simba's character particularly ethical in any way? As far as I can tell he's much more concerned with understanding his place in the world, as opposed to acting in a supposedly "correct" manner.

"Scar: Simba, Simba, please. Please have mercy, I beg you.
Adult Simba: You don't deserve to live.
Scar: But, Simba, I... am... family. It's the hyenas who are the real enemy. It was their fault. It was their idea!
Adult Simba: Why should I believe you? Everything you ever told me was a lie.
Scar: What are you going to do? You wouldn't kill your *own* uncle...?
Adult Simba: No, Scar. I'm not like you.
Scar: Oh, Simba, thank you. You are truly noble. I'll make it up to you, I promise. How can I, ah, prove myself to you? Tell me anything, anything.
Adult Simba: Run. Run away, Scar. And never return.
Scar: Yes. Of course. As you wish,
[Scar's words turn into a snarl]
Scar: your Majesty!
[throws embers in Simba's face]
Adult Simba: Aaah!"

Classic Disney moment but would it happen if our heroes were Logicals?

[World Socionics]

I'd say that Pumba is a SEI-Fe. He may be expressive but I wouldn't say he has a very EJish nature. Indeed, he's mostly just happy to follow Timon's lead, contributing to the conversation where he can. I'd place his Extraverted Sensing as Ignoring rather than Demonstrative, simply due to his lack of demonstration of it. Rather than be jokingly forceful, he instead resorts to charging at hyenas in the rare situations where his friends are in danger. Compare to Tigger: who pounces on his friends in a very good example of ESE Se demonstration. Winnie the Pooh is of course an SEI and he quite passively adapts to what Tigger is doing, in the same way that Pumba adapts to Timon's eccentric habits.