Supervision - Painful for Supervisor too

[Creepy-theticalanti]

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[wacey]

I have come to the understanding recently that the negative aspect of supervision have been hugely exaggerated and wildly overblown. There is an element of playfulness from both parties, especially if the supervisor is well adjusted.

(generally always wondered why is the polr always associated with a "HIT" - why a negative hit all the time? Why can't it be equally positive?)

[golden]

I kind of agree w @wacey, because supervision can be a really helpful relationship imo. But if it happens to be a conflicted relationship, then I think yes, that thing ppl call informally "reverse supervision" can happen, and I think you're right that it can come as criticism / unmet expectations re. the role.

But I haven't experienced it as a "hit" on a real weak spot, it's more exasperating than wounding. Maybe bc where role is concerned, there is a feeling of "my leading function can cover that arena, so who cares." With polr, there's more a sense of defenselessness.

[wacey]

Fair enough

[Hays]

I am going to be really honest here and it will make me sound so horrible but here goes-

I definitely have done what you have mentioned above in regards to the supervisor expressing that they don't value this information coming at them.
On the whole I have managed to get on fairly well with this particular person who I have encountered this communication with but once a pattern started forming I just no longer desire this person in my life...I don't like them, don't like anything about them, I have no time for this in my life and if I could I would never have them near me ever again.

Are you sure it's supervision? Aren't I meant to find them an interesting person who is capable? Rather I have come to see the individual as quite nasty, not humble, not open to admitting faults or giving an apology and possessing an interior that I have no desire to be near if the choice was mine. In fact I think they are horribly dumb and just don't get things that are important to the situation and it's future. They use no logic in their thinking and cannot handle it when I have had to point it out. They instead just look away avoiding eye contact and any more engaging on the subject or can attempt to justify themselves - insubstantiality, they get angry & stay angry and display emotions that I just don't want to be around. I don't need their anger and negativity in my life.

From myself to them I say things like ' I don't care about your stupid 'integrity' or ' if you really want me to get angry then carry on that path declaring things about your so called integrity and standing and I'll get started on what I really think about you' or ' you have got to be kidding me - you really want to go down this path?' and so on....sometimes I just think these things in my mind...but I admit that I have said them out loud also when taken to the limit.

Writing it like this and reading what you have written above @William makes me think that I may be supervising EXFp if you are saying that they are using their creative function on my third function. That is if integrity would be classed as Fi?

[Suz]

Has anyone else observed a situation in which the Supervisee says something that hurts the Supervisor?

ummmm... even duals can say hurtful things to each other.

[Amber]

Mby the Supervisee can make it a little ' painful ' for the other person when he / she is the Extroverted type . The extrovert won't introspect and analyse self that much , instead he tries to make the other person change mind and attitude . Double ' vulnerability ' given by introversion and being the supervised one is a little more strange and makes the relationship 'by the book ' without many exceptions like Role hit' and others .

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

well feeling guilt & empathy for what you say is just kind of normal human behavior. If I say something cutting, bitchy and sociopathic, it might hurt the both of us but only about 70% of the population is empathetic, 30% are sociopaths naturally and wouldn't necessarily back down. but sociopath + sadist are different of course, and well if you are both then ur just the biggest bad-ass that ever bad assed right @zap?

Psychological deconstruction, coldly distanceing yourself emotionally from the target while analyzing them accurately while you stay there completely unphased is just what the Dark Ones always do. A person with a conscience would feel the recoil of this but again, only 70% of us. Basically, they get everything right but the love.

[Aylen]

Has anyone else observed a situation in which the Supervisee says something that hurts the Supervisor? I've observed this now multiple times across different sociotypes. I think the PoLR in socionics is slightly overrated and the weakness of the Role function is slightly underrated.

Basically in this relationship, the Supervisee defends their strong Creative (2nd) function in a way that hits the Supervisor's Role (3rd) function. The Supervisor expresses they don't value this information, but their weakness is brought consciously to their attention. It can be very painful --- after all, it's your most CONSCIOUS function besides your leading & creative functions. I see Supervisors having to affirm their self-identity, and what they value, in order to defend against these kinds of attacks. If Supervisors are not confident in themselves, attacks from Supervisees can be extremely destructive.

Ultimately the Supervisor generally adjusts the context of the conversation, and comes back to using their Leading (1st) function to hit the PoLR (4th) of the Supervisee. But it seems not after some damage is done to the Supervisor as well.

Also consider the different energy levels / temperaments in this relationship make it especially uncomfortable. It's extremely similar to Conflictor. I think the damage done to the Supervisor in this relationship is greatly understated.

Has anyone else observed this phenomenon?

The longest and closest relationship I have of this type is with my little sister. The only way she could ever hurt me is to play on my emotions. I hate to say this but she has never had the upper hand on me, when it comes to logical reasoning, when we conflict, but it is true. The way she gets to me is when she cries. This hurts. Then I want to hug her and comfort her but sometimes there is a part of me that holds me back from comforting her and I take a firm stance but inside I am in emotional pain.

Once we get out of each others faces and calm down, we can hug and make up but she is more likely to hold a grudge than I am and I expect her to bring up the issue or whatever at an inappropriate time. Sometimes she does it in front of others and my pride gets in the way. Then I have to defend myself logically or I will make fun of the situation, which I feel bad about later because people usually end up thinking she is being unreasonable with her expectations. It is awful because I hate doing it to her. Help me William!!! Give me some sage-like advice, please?

[Rhaegar]

I have had working relationships with EIE's on projects and as acquaintances before. I find them easy to understand and predict, likely because we have the same cognitive style and the common ground use of Ni. That being said I don't like the way EIE's use Ni. They use predictive ability as a tool for social posturing. I am aware that this is their creative function and so it makes sense but it makes me uncomfortable. EIE's seem to truly believe in their own messiahood due to their vision of things and this manipulation makes me uncomfortable, as if I am facing an opponent.

I also feel like I can't correct them or dispute their claims unless we are alone because they can swarm a room of people against me by pretending to be hurt or wounded. Even if I am objectively right it can be hard because ultimately the room may turn against me anyway, so it prompts me to be silent when EIE's have their group huddled around them. I think these are the situations are when EIE's most often fit the "supervisor" moniker as their role function will likely be protected here.

That being said, when I can get a punch in on them (hard because they are usually careful about keeping their yes men around) I know it has an effect. Punching them in the role is unsettling for them too, it scares them a little bit how their base function is completely disregarded. Ultimately I think what really gets to them is my failure to acknowledge their great importance and vision. Oddly enough it seems to prompt them to try harder (at least for a short time) to get me to acknowledge them. I think this makes things worse for both of us.

I apologize for the negative tone in this post, I simply haven't had many positive experiences in this intertype relation. Ultimately, I do believe that the relation is uncomfortable for EIE's too. Imagine having someone straight ignore your base function, punch you in the role, and not accept your creative because theirs is "better".

[Aylen]

I have had working relationships with EIE's on projects and as acquaintances before. I find them easy to understand and predict, likely because we have the same cognitive style and the common ground use of Ni. That being said I don't like the way EIE's use Ni. They use predictive ability as a tool for social posturing. I am aware that this is their creative function and so it makes sense but it makes me uncomfortable. EIE's seem to truly believe in their own messiahood due to their vision of things and this manipulation makes me uncomfortable, as if I am facing an opponent.

I also feel like I can't correct them or dispute their claims unless we are alone because they can swarm a room of people against me by pretending to be hurt or wounded. Even if I am objectively right it can be hard because ultimately the room may turn against me anyway, so it prompts me to be silent when EIE's have their group huddled around them. I think these are the situations are when EIE's most often fit the "supervisor" moniker as their role function will likely be protected here.

That being said, when I can get a punch in on them (hard because they are usually careful about keeping their yes men around) I know it has an effect. Punching them in the role is unsettling for them too, it scares them a little bit how their base function is completely disregarded. Ultimately I think what really gets to them is my failure to acknowledge their great importance and vision. Oddly enough it seems to prompt them to try harder (at least for a short time) to get me to acknowledge them. I think this makes things worse for both of us.

I apologize for the negative tone in this post, I simply haven't had many positive experiences in this intertype relation. Ultimately, I do believe that the relation is uncomfortable for EIE's too. Imagine having someone straight ignore your base function, punch you in the role, and not accept your creative because theirs is "better".

Your posts are starting the freak me out, in a good way. The ILI I have mentioned before met a girl after we broke up. He and I remained as close as we were before the breakup so we started hanging out together with our new partners. It got weird because even though I trusted my ILI completely, his new EIE gf had a way of making me question him when there was a dispute between them and I would actually take her side, which is fucked up if you knew how much loyalty means to me in friends. She just had this way of swaying me to feel for her, by putting on this dramatic scene of being hurt by him, even when I knew deep down she was playing me for a fool, I knew him better than that but sometimes I had a hard time deciding who was lying. Like he was never a good liar and I wanted to believe him... she just had this way...I couldn't help but like this girl. I finally broke free of her and I am never looking back. Too much power for one person to hold over me. hahahah I am not clear on what types use what functions but I am pretty good at looking at how things play out in real life then matching up experiences to functions after someone shares something I find relevant to understanding my own life situations. Thanks!

I think if you ever changed your current self-type I would not believe it and the world would fall apart. *adds drama*

[Iris]

I have had working relationships with EIE's on projects and as acquaintances before. I find them easy to understand and predict, likely because we have the same cognitive style and the common ground use of Ni. That being said I don't like the way EIE's use Ni. They use predictive ability as a tool for social posturing. I am aware that this is their creative function and so it makes sense but it makes me uncomfortable. EIE's seem to truly believe in their own messiahood due to their vision of things and this manipulation makes me uncomfortable, as if I am facing an opponent.

I also feel like I can't correct them or dispute their claims unless we are alone because they can swarm a room of people against me by pretending to be hurt or wounded. Even if I am objectively right it can be hard because ultimately the room may turn against me anyway, so it prompts me to be silent when EIE's have their group huddled around them. I think these are the situations are when EIE's most often fit the "supervisor" moniker as their role function will likely be protected here.

I hear what you are saying. Here is how your scenario could be true of me. It isn't my style to make a scene or go around talking trash about someone to get revenge, for example. I will just be kind of quiet and usually people who know me will notice that I am not my usual self. I guess I dont have a large group to sway so this plays out on a smaller scale.

A couple of additioal thoughts:

I agree about the Messiah thing where I think very passionately that I know the right way to solve a problem and I try to use my persuasive powers to convince others. I have mentioned in other threads that I am fairly good at reading people, and I use that knowledge to present a message that will a better chance of being accepted. Living with mostly Gammas and Deltas has probably caused me to tone myself down a lot.

I noticed that you said "pretending" to be hurt. I can't speak for all EIEs, but I am either hurt or not hurt. There is no pretending about that. Pretending to be hurt would be like lying. That is a bit of a sore spot for me, because my father used to tell me that I was faking it when I was upset or crying about something.

Can you give an example of an EIE role punch?

[Words]

Has anyone else observed a situation in which the Supervisee says something that hurts the Supervisor? I've observed this now multiple times across different sociotypes. I think the PoLR in socionics is slightly overrated and the weakness of the Role function is slightly underrated.

Basically in this relationship, the Supervisee defends their strong Creative (2nd) function in a way that hits the Supervisor's Role (3rd) function. The Supervisor expresses they don't value this information, but their weakness is brought consciously to their attention. It can be very painful --- after all, it's your most CONSCIOUS function besides your leading & creative functions. I see Supervisors having to affirm their self-identity, and what they value, in order to defend against these kinds of attacks. If Supervisors are not confident in themselves, attacks from Supervisees can be extremely destructive.

Ultimately the Supervisor generally adjusts the context of the conversation, and comes back to using their Leading (1st) function to hit the PoLR (4th) of the Supervisee. But it seems not after some damage is done to the Supervisor as well.

Also consider the different energy levels / temperaments in this relationship make it especially uncomfortable. It's extremely similar to Conflictor. I think the damage done to the Supervisor in this relationship is greatly understated.

Has anyone else observed this phenomenon?

No

[Aylen]

Well, I've never been a fan of the assumption that you're obligated to stay in touch with people simply because they're your own family. By luck & genetics, sometimes good people are born into families with destructive & abusive individuals. Maintaining close relationships with those people can be very limiting to your own self-growth.

That said, of course there are enormous benefits to maintaining relationships with family members. These are likely to be your closest life-long relationships. In this situation with your sister, it sounds like you like her & want to continue your relationship with her.

Have you spoken with her directly, and said you feel like she's being manipulative sometimes with her crying? That doesn't sound like she's respecting your emotions. What kinds of situations / conversations are you having in which she ends up crying? Can these kinds of conversations and subjects be either resolved or avoided?

Lastly, not just for the sake of your relationship with her long-term, but for your own sake, do NOT stoop to her level. Don't embarrass her in front of others to get even. This fills YOU up with tremendous guilt for causing the damage, and you end up hurting. I know I've been there before - in the moment, you want to get even. But whenever you tear someone down, don't you feel bad afterwards? After all the smoke clears, you think 'why did I do that?' I don't think these kinds of feelings are healthy long-term. Besides - like you said, if most people see her as unreasonable anyway, people will still respect you. But try not to care so much what others think of you either.

Just some of my thoughts/impressions, hope it helps.

Omg William I gave you the wrong impression! She is not always trying to manipulate me, even when she does try she is not very good at it. She is a horrible liar and manipulator. She will break if you raise an eyebrow at her. Her emotions are quite real but I have to be the strong one sometimes and make the tough calls since I am older. I can't let my own emotions get in the way. Even when I want to but sometimes I am just being stubborn. She mostly comes off as unreasonable because she does not have a strong ability to defend herself logically. I am the one being unreasonable sometimes for not giving in and letting her have her closure on the issue that is bothering her. Sometimes I do give in though. I was sort of exaggerating my plea for help. She and I are good and we love each other and get along well, most of the time, but sisters do fight and I guess having certain types of intertype relationships can make those fights seem unfair. I feel it is unfair to her and I should not make fun of her but again we are sisters so....

She is very good at spreading positive energy and cheering people up and is a ray of sunshine most of the time. She just needs to learn to let some stuff go or at least have some control over her emotions so she doesn't bring up our issues because someone said something in an unrelated conversation that reminded her that she even had an issue. :/

Thanks for your advice. It was sweet and I will try to keep my silliness in check next time. I was not being completely serious when asking for a solution, Sorry.

She is ESE (and the sweetest kindest person I know) ftr. I talk about the EII more so wanted to clarify for those who don't know.

[wacey]

@Rhaegar

Yup, pretty much.

[Alomoes]

Has anyone else observed a situation in which the Supervisee says something that hurts the Supervisor? I've observed this now multiple times across different sociotypes. I think the PoLR in socionics is slightly overrated and the weakness of the Role function is slightly underrated.

Basically in this relationship, the Supervisee defends their strong Creative (2nd) function in a way that hits the Supervisor's Role (3rd) function. The Supervisor expresses they don't value this information, but their weakness is brought consciously to their attention. It can be very painful --- after all, it's your most CONSCIOUS function besides your leading & creative functions. I see Supervisors having to affirm their self-identity, and what they value, in order to defend against these kinds of attacks. If Supervisors are not confident in themselves, attacks from Supervisees can be extremely destructive.

Ultimately the Supervisor generally adjusts the context of the conversation, and comes back to using their Leading (1st) function to hit the PoLR (4th) of the Supervisee. But it seems not after some damage is done to the Supervisor as well.

Also consider the different energy levels / temperaments in this relationship make it especially uncomfortable. It's extremely similar to Conflictor. I think the damage done to the Supervisor in this relationship is greatly understated.

Has anyone else observed this phenomenon?

This is when the supervisee tries to break out. It fails. Eventually, the supervisee learns to ignore the supervisor, or gets stuck.

[Alomoes]

No

Then you have no use here. Not even an attempt. Shocking.

[Words]

Then you have no use here. Not even an attempt. Shocking.

Maybe this phenomenon doesn't exist, I haven't seen it.

I have seen supervisors hurting their supervisees but not that I have seen specifically related to functions, just that people can hurt people in general given the particular circumstances.

What I have seen is supervisors being receptive to the information given by a supervisee, but information whether words or actions intended to hurt will hurt, if it's intended as good advice but touches a nerve then it is something a person is aware of an uncomfortable about whichever type does it.

It is a short response but if you are looking for a longer one I did not provide

[kopyk]

well feeling guilt & empathy for what you say is just kind of normal human behavior. If I say something cutting, bitchy and sociopathic, it might hurt the both of us but only about 70% of the population is empathetic, 30% are sociopaths naturally and wouldn't necessarily back down. but sociopath + sadist are different of course, and well if you are both then ur just the biggest bad-ass that ever bad assed right @zap?

I've actually recently concluded that sadists are nothing but weakling pussies. They're only strong cuz they won a genetic lottery, really. if every could turn their sense of pain off, on, up, down whenever they wanted & also physical damaged didn't reduce lifespans then sadists would be pretty much worthless, tryhard morons. They're only "strong" due to near-universally enforced weaknesses.