ISFps, ESFjs and extraverted sensing Se

[Rubicon]

When an Alpha SF has to use Se, what does it look like? How does it feel for them? How do they typically react to Se?

[Brilliand]

[Mediator Kam]

[ArchonAlarion]

they won't use it really.

[Mediator Kam]

I didn't want to bring model x into it.

[ArchonAlarion]

I didn't want to bring model x into it.

ahh

my motives are so clear.

*note to self... work on subtley*

[Rubicon]

[Brilliand]

[Rubicon]

[Rubicon]

meh .. I'm derailing my own thread

[Brilliand]

Well, back on topic... Jem, you're an Alpha SF yourself. How do you react if someone tries to bully you?

[Rubicon]

Well, back on topic... Jem, you're an Alpha SF yourself. How do you react if someone tries to bully you?

I'm not sure I'm an Alpha SF ... but I tend to immediately feel pretty stubborn about not giving in. I guess it depends. Ideally, I'd just walk away. If I have to stand my ground, I tend to just resist rather than pushing back. If I think the person is not going to give in any time soon, I may let loose with an explosion of Fe to get them off my back. Shock tactics.

[Brilliand]

I'm not sure I'm an Alpha SF ... but I tend to immediately feel pretty stubborn about not giving in. I guess it depends. Ideally, I'd just walk away. If I have to stand my ground, I tend to just resist rather than pushing back. If I think the person is not going to give in any time soon, I may let loose with an explosion of Fe to get them off my back. Shock tactics.

Well said. I think an ESE might be a little more willing to turn on the bully... but let's see if an ESE responds.

[confused84]

My father is an ESE

As a child he felt obligated to stick up for those who could stick up for themselves.
But sadly he lets people walk all over him.

[forgetmenot]

My father is an ESE

As a child he felt obligated to stick up for those who could stick up for themselves.
But sadly he lets people walk all over him.

That's a perfect description of how I behave. I find it really easy to stand up for somebody else's rights, protect them etc and I do it whenever it's needed. It's more difficult for me to defend myself. I don't know, I was born to please people I'd quess .
Yeah, I had a bit tense situation with my INTj friend when he said he wasn't allowed to say vulgar words at our mutual friend's place, he did the washing up when she fed him and he wasn't allowed to belch .
He does all of these things at my place but I talked to him and he's going to stop .

[cracka]

Well said. I think an ESE might be a little more willing to turn on the bully... but let's see if an ESE responds.

Are there any other ESE's other than myself actually on this forum?

[strrrng]

Are there any other ESE's other than myself actually on this forum?

dbmmama and (probably) teddybeanz IMO.

[redbaron]

My ESE husband did get in a fight once in school. And he has this sort of secret theory that I won't let him espouse to the kids that if someone hits you, hit them back. lol So... he avoids it but if confronted, he'll use it.

I think alpha SFs kind of ignore Se most of the time, discount it a bit as though it's not all that important but then when they have to, they can use it. Once they see that they can't fix the problem any other way.

[strrrng]

My ESE husband did get in a fight once in school. And he has this sort of secret theory that I won't let him espouse to the kids that if someone hits you, hit them back. lol So... he avoids it but if confronted, he'll use it.

I think that's a decent adage to harbor in the back of one's mind. Although, I know from experience that it can't always be used as a rationalization for confrontation (just see sean's thread about pushing some girls out of his way lol). But, I'd rather have a parent who accepted this idea generally, than rejected it under some bullshit pacifist rationalization.

[Brilliand]

Are there any other ESE's other than myself actually on this forum?

There are others, but you're certainly the easiest one to find. So I could have rephrased that as "Let's see if Cracka responds."

Mind answering the question? How do you respond to bullying (both when you're bullied and when someone else is bullied)? (I'm sure you must have answered this question before, but... er, I'm not going to paralyze myself by searching via every possible method before I can post this!)

[Banana Pancakes]

They can be pretty forceful...our SEI secretary yelled at the guys the other day for not putting new paper towels in the bathroom when they ran out. It was adorable.

[strrrng]

Sigh. is being associated with force and willpower again.

[DirectorAbbie]

Sigh. is being associated with force and willpower again.

Isn't that what it is?

My SEI brother is very easy-going. But sometimes when his younger SLE brother gets too wild and hurts something the SEI cares about, he'll stop everything and get defensive.

My ESE friend was bossy, but she did it in an way most of the time.

[ArchonAlarion]

lol yeah i remember those days...

Se perceives the actual, physical attributes of things. Like, "that is this shape" or "things are this way in actuality"

So Se-ers will often come across as forceful and aggressive because when they wish to make a change, they will attempt to alter things physically.

Punching someone in the face will change them physically.

Like with "possession."

If I am holding a suitcase I possess it. I have it in my grasp. You can see this physical variable. I have it or I don't. This is what an Se would see.

Now if you ripped the suitcase out of my hand YOU now possess it. An Se interprets this and understands this "there or its not" quality.

An Ne however, might have given this item (the suitcase) an essential, internal attribute "private property." "Property" is purely conceptual whereas "possession" is actual and concrete.

So not saying that these elements can't understand the difference, but they will perceive the circumstance differently and their philosophical ideology will prolly be somewhat influenced.

[cracka]

dbmmama and (probably) teddybeanz IMO.

Cool, I kinda thought dbmmama is also an ESE but I've never seen that confirmed, and Teddybeanz I just never knew much about.

There are others, but you're certainly the easiest one to find. So I could have rephrased that as "Let's see if Cracka responds."

Mind answering the question? How do you respond to bullying (both when you're bullied and when someone else is bullied)? (I'm sure you must have answered this question before, but... er, I'm not going to paralyze myself by searching via every possible method before I can post this!)

As for the question on bullying, I only remember being bullied in school by 3 people when I was young. All three of them I got in fights with at some point, only one of those I actually had my ass totally kicked...lol. I usually just "let it go" to an extent, but when my "bully" would go too far, I couldn't. My parents were the type that said don't fight but knew that at some point you can't be someone's bitch.

My brother was also a bit of a bully until I got a bit bigger than him and when we fought I broke his cheek bone, twice...lol.

These days, I can't say I've been bullied at all by anyone... not that I can think of at least. As for other people being bullied, it's much like this place, if I see someone being an asshole to people I'll step in and say something. In a sense, I'd rather be a bully to someone elses bully if I think they need it. Having a career where I've never really been around younger people, it's just not something that's prevalent around me in real life anymore.

[Minde]

When an Alpha SF has to use Se, what does it look like? How does it feel for them? How do they typically react to Se?

I'm not ESE, but I have a friend who I'm pretty sure is, so I can give my perspective that way. (Though, knowing how you are defining Se might be helpful; then I could know better how to answer your question.)

In terms of physical toughness, she's more so than me. Much more. Growing up with two older brothers and no sister might have influenced that. But in any case she would have absolutely no problems if/when she ever wanted to whup me. She played soccer when younger, and according to her own reports could be quite ferocious.

She's also definitely more spatially aware than me. That may be more Si, though.

In terms of non-physical forcefulness, it depends on the circumstance. She can be quite firm, especially when she's in charge. But I've never seen her be really mean about it. It's usually more like, "These are the rules/principles, and these are the consequences. I'm sorry you don't like that, but that's the way it is." Sometimes she doesn't always see alternatives, but she's considerate of other people and tends to cater to their wants when possible.

I think sometimes I have more of an "allergic" reaction to people being controlling of me/us. She'll either go along with it (unless I point out why we shouldn't and offer an alternative), or just matter-of-factly break the rules or do things her way. I seem to have more inner turmoil over it all.

As far as bullying goes... I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure she'd defend me if I ever needed it. And she's said that when she was younger her brothers would pick on her. But she would often fight back.

Does that help at all?

[Exodus]

I agree with basically all of what Minde says. Alpha SFs, especially ESEs, will definitely let you know when they are "in charge", although they are generally more subtle about it than ego types, and tend to avoid making power structures if possible. They also tend to be comfortable with firmly making decisions that affect other people - something intuitive types are horrendously bad at.

[cracka]

I agree with basically all of what Minde says. Alpha SFs, especially ESEs, will definitely let you know when they are "in charge", although they are generally more subtle about it than ego types, and tend to avoid making power structures if possible. They also tend to be comfortable with firmly making decisions that affect other people - something intuitive types are horrendously bad at.

I agree with this.

[Rubicon]

I'm not ESE, but I have a friend who I'm pretty sure is, so I can give my perspective that way. (Though, knowing how you are defining Se might be helpful; then I could know better how to answer your question.)

In terms of physical toughness, she's more so than me. Much more. Growing up with two older brothers and no sister might have influenced that. But in any case she would have absolutely no problems if/when she ever wanted to whup me. She played soccer when younger, and according to her own reports could be quite ferocious.

She's also definitely more spatially aware than me. That may be more Si, though.

In terms of non-physical forcefulness, it depends on the circumstance. She can be quite firm, especially when she's in charge. But I've never seen her be really mean about it. It's usually more like, "These are the rules/principles, and these are the consequences. I'm sorry you don't like that, but that's the way it is." Sometimes she doesn't always see alternatives, but she's considerate of other people and tends to cater to their wants when possible.

I think sometimes I have more of an "allergic" reaction to people being controlling of me/us. She'll either go along with it (unless I point out why we shouldn't and offer an alternative), or just matter-of-factly break the rules or do things her way. I seem to have more inner turmoil over it all.

As far as bullying goes... I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure she'd defend me if I ever needed it. And she's said that when she was younger her brothers would pick on her. But she would often fight back.

Does that help at all?

Yeah, thanks. (c:

Could you describe more what you mean by "allergic reaction"?

[Banana Pancakes]

and ISFp is totally using Se right now on the Alpha drawball.

[ArchonAlarion]

[Mediator Kam]

boxxy approves this song.

[forgetmenot]

Are there any other ESE's other than myself actually on this forum?

I might be ESE but I'm still not sure. Anyway, I described my behaviour. When I argue with somebody I may scream but I usually feel guilty later on. I try to avoid arguments but I would surely stand up for somebody else's rights, no matter what .