What Ni means exactly?
And please try to limit the use of squares and triangles... they don't help me much
Can someone tell me - introverted intuition Ni
What Ni means exactly?
And please try to limit the use of squares and triangles... they don't help me much
interconnectedness between things over time. being able to see how one thing leads to another to the end result. being able to pick the right time to act on something so that the chance of achieving the goal is maximized. Knowing how things are likely to unfold.
IEI-Fe 4w3
Being able to pick the right time? Like, predicting something?
yeah. a sense that you know what's likely to happen. that you can "see" it somehow. like you can follow the tunnel to the most likely destination.Originally Posted by LokiVanguard
IEI-Fe 4w3
At its most fundamental level, internal dynamics of fields.
Socionics :: Information Elements
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
The definition for Ni given on that site is this:
"intangible connections between processes separated in time and space: sense of when things might happen, patterns of events, abstract representations of processes"
IEI-Fe 4w3
Redbaron is spot-on. I'll quote here an awesome description that I found somewhere:
"I need to begin this part by saying that I only use "intuition of time" for lack of a better term. Introverted intuition is actually more like "intuition of the balance between intangible forces in the universe and the patterns that subsequently develop from those imbalances." Sounds deep, and it is."
What Ni does is exactly what redbaron said:
This is my theoretical account of how that happens:a sense that you know what's likely to happen. that you can "see" it somehow. like you can follow the tunnel to the most likely destination.
Introverted intuition uses existing information to build a theoretical model of a given process or relationship. From this model, one can extrapolate forward into what will happen next. As a perceiving function, Ni does not only do this consciously, as the verb "build" might imply, but also without conscious intent. However, I use the verb "build" to stress the artificiality of the Ni reality-construct. It is not reality-as-perceived-through-the-senses, but an abstraction away from reality-as-perceived-through-the-senses.
One of the characteristic ways in which Ni differs from other introverted elements (I am thinking of Ti in particular right now), is that it takes what are often referred to as "intuitive leaps". This is how Ni works:
1) reviews the existing set of parts
2) perceives a relationship between them
3) makes an intuitive leap, which subsumes these parts into a theoretical whole (first level of abstraction away from 'reality' as such)
4) deduces other parts from the understanding of the whole (second level of abstraction away from 'reality' as such).
Here's another way of saying it: It's like if you had never seen a car, but you looked at a tire, an engine, a car door, a steering wheel, and a gear shift, and then, based on this, made a guess as to what the relationship between these objects is. Well, this relationship is called a car; a car is the overall whole that relates the individual car parts. Once you make this intuitive leap from car parts to the imaginary 'car', or theoretical-relationship-between-car-parts, you can very easily say what the other parts of the car are. The problem with this analogy is that it's too static rather than dynamic, but I think it still gets the overall point across. Ni is that sort of thinking applied to processes that occur over time.
The weird part of Ni is that the intuitive leap really does feel like perception, rather than construction. It's like you're "seeing" a relationship that was always there, when in reality, I believe that Ni constructs a theoretical relationship that isn't really "there" in some sense. Of course, in another sense, Ni can discover things that are "there" in a much more profound sense than physical objects. So it's a toss-up.
Also, to relate further to what redbaron was saying, I think that the model-building part of Ni occurs unconsciously, so we don't notice ourselves building this theory of how things will change; consciously, we skip straight to the solution. In my four-step process, the second and third steps occur unconsciously, so that we consciously move straight from the first 'part' of the whole to the last 'part'. It is my contention that this occurs through a sometimes-conscious, sometimes-unconscious process of extrapolating an overall model of a process
Also also, as a bonus, here's my explication of internal dynamics of fields: how relationships that cannot directly be perceived by the senses change (there's an argument that says that emotion and stuff like that is actually just understanding subtle physical cues, which is why I say that internal things cannot "directly" be perceived by the senses). Ni tells me how relationships between things that cannot directly be perceived by the senses change.
Not a rule, just a trend.
IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.
Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...
I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.
Imagine trying to reduce everything you know to a cause and effect relationship, even the most minute details.
A focus on what experiences have in common. Generalized understanding of phenomena. Unlike Ne it doesn't analyze objects, but situations one finds oneself in.
The understanding is more immediate and less capable of being broken down than the understanding gained from Ne (Limiting when Accepting instead of Limiting when Creating). It makes you understand fundaments that can not be broken down further.
I still don't get how you can "predict" a relationship though...based on what? just a strong hunch?
That's Ne. I predict things based on hunches or guesses. And I'm usually right.
Ni's predictions are based on past trends, and also based on relevant experiences that person has internalized and mentally abstracted.
I think it's safe to say that all predictions are based on past trends.
Not to the same extent. Ne doesn't directly council trends to nearly equal capacity, and fills in the pieces with minimum recourse to that.
Well, in MBTI its defined kind of like that, making predictions based on trends. INTJs and INFJs dominant function does this, and I'm an INTJ so I relate with this. But I'm quite sure that its not really what Ni manifests as in a socionics sense, in a realistic sense. People seem to think some of the functions are basically the same in Socionics as they are in MBTI, which I disagree. Saying it sees trends and makes predictions would be an oversimplification that wouldn't really hit home for many Ni dominants. I agree its an introverted intuition, so its based on one's own experience, although it has a lot more to do with one's internal world of intuitive thoughts, and much less about seeing possibilities in daily things or being creative thinkers on the job how Ne types tend to be. Ni can be very limited in expression because its all very personal, but its much more of a internal characteristic feature, than having just one sole objective purpose (which I think causes the confusion). Generally it manifests in a variety of ways all linked to being an intuitive type, ability to see hidden connections, and gaining sight of grander implications of things, especially having a detached-from-world lifestyle. Focused on mental wanderings and one's own imagination, that skips through all the rationale and realistic parts in order to gain a perception. It's a very deep, internal-searching process, where past experiences and trends come together, allowing one to visit complex landscapes and gain perception of how events might develop, and usually Ni types easily follow one main plan of action or thought, versus Ne, accepting many of the possibilities. It is hard to word thus equally hard to understand for people, since it has a variety of possible applications. Its not so much defined in real world terms because its so subjective, but there have always been better and closer explanations given by each person. One thing I have noticed is that Ne types don't really seem to get it, they don't understand quite well what Ni is, when I try to explain it to them. They get confused by it. Another thing I've noticed is that Ne types compared to Nis usually deal better with gathering and accepting in external information, alpha NTs always requiring the facts and the information, where as Ni don't even find this tiresome in practice, because they usually don't think about it, rather going off intuiting the main idea, their hunches, always developing the exteneral circumstances internally, and that's where I think Ni can often begin to predict the future with little information, because the events subconsciously play out in our head in a sequence and we can come up with startlingly accurate conclusions. Ni types seem to communicate with me on a generally clear level about this process, but its subjectivity will leave it as one of the most unclear information elements, if probably the most vaguely described one. INTps can pretty much always be uncertain about things, because we have Te which seems to rely on facts and information even though we feel like we don't need them, so when we really do need them, it kind of puts our dominant function into serious question, and we spend a lot more time overthinking things without making many certain conclusions. This is a downside that isn't always part, but is frequent enough to state. INTps are deep analytical types, generally less keen on scientific stuff where you have to play around with things like numbers or equations, and where there are principles to everything. Think of Balzac or Jung, who spent their lives conducting research and deeply pondering the sea's perpetual patterns. INTps can be rather eccentric and understand very unique and nonexistent forms, esoterically. One thing that I think will help you see Ni, is that its a deep intuition, compared to Ne which is based more on various interests of reality, of a whatever works, whatever sounds good. Ni is very personal and can't be divided from the subject, that being the person who is witnessing the marvel. It is not objective. This is also why when we have ideas or predictions, they are often too complex and detailed, where as I think Ne types have predictions too, but they are much more generally themed. Their ideas are like the skeleton or essence, and Nis the skin, the little intricate details which we're not even sure fit into a context, that wish to become realized by words, if only the situation was made available.
having a rough estimate of how things are going to turn out, and a sense of all the wrong things that can happen along the way.
Ni is basically about... pretending to being in the future, and experiencing the sensations of being in that pretend-future-world. It's basically about separating yourself from the present-moment, and imagining yourself in different time periods.
Pasting some translated sections from Socionics.org
.........................
Intuition of Time
The skill to correlate temporary sections, to plan, to make forecasts, to recover the dynamics of the course of events. Taking this into account to form strategy of actions.
Future, a change of the situation with time, prediction, foresight, gradual development, evolution, planned ascending, the dynamics of changes, temporary flow, imagination, consistency, imperceptible changes - step by step, convergence, convergence
The past, the calculation of errors, the avoidance of danger, anxiety, vague uneasiness, the ripening of the crisis, revolution, jump in the time, the skill to insure against the troubles, sharp shifts, discrepancy, the moment of decisive actions, divergence.
.................
I guess for a comparison of opposites:
Ni- see's "C" and how to get there from "A" via recognizing the process that's needed to get there. The priority is getting to "C", not lingering in "A".
Si- see's "A" and deals with "A" well, but does not see "C". "C" is seen as something irrelevant when still at "A".
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
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Ni synthesis ideas, connects multiple ideas together. Ni-egos are very good at writing and storytelling. With Ni+Fe, INFp best objective writers. Based on social constructs, Augusta herself said this was true too (I think?)
I don't think it tells the future, but it is very intuitive, intuitive introversion - so it's very self-reflective. I don't see Ni-egos 'giving' themselves up very much, sort of self-contained. Ni understands the likelihood of an events happening, so they will usually supervise the ESE in a way such as "Do you really need to do that? You're overdoing."
For example, abstract similarities between experiences
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
through remembering past causal relationships a Ni dominant type will have a working model which they apply to their present experience in their memory. Similarity between objects is the assumption of this application.. which may be considered weak S. From this application emerges predictions for the future. The application of this working model is ongoing. As things unfold, the application may change. All these relationships are stored in memory. This is the 'dream world' people sometimes reference. Occasionally I go into something like a meditative state where I play around with causal relationships in my dream world, for experimental purposes. I think it's like pruning my thoughts. Throwing out the bad ones, developing better understanding of the good ones. If you try to think of everything as a causal relationship, you might get close to Ni. But dominant Ni is developed in this sort of thinking to a point it's too abstract for a non dominant Ni to emulate. To go into a dream world of imagining causation, you need alot of past experience to rely on. Better to just understand the structure of Ni, and not try to comprehend the daydream aspect of it.
I am reading what you guys are saying, and am identifying my Ni function. Ni is impossible to explain. Daydreaming is how it looks when i am completely inside myself doing Ni. Which happens often. But I can be at various levels of contact with the world, using Ni. Do other IEIs relate?
Ni has two parts which play off of each other endlessly. On the one hand, it is the outcome of events; on the other, it is the events themselves, the choices we make every day. The realizations of potential which actually move time forward. Gamma Ni sequences the actualizations of potential, observes them in order of their occurrence. Beta Ni takes the sequences themselves and observes where they diverged, invariably due to a decision to release potential. This decision is always the result of a struggle between the potential outcomes for exclusive realization, with the winning object selecting the potential to be released, thus changing the course of time.
Has anyone ever played Chrono Cross? And of course Keanu Reeves have always been faced with decisive choices in his roles. No doubt the choice can itself trigger damage to a system which may diminish its controller's strength and cause them to lose unexpectedly.
Fuck, I love that game. The first game (Chrono Trigger) is a better game overall I think, though.
beta Ni: not being in the moment i guess. not even looking from the outside in, just being somewhere else. dreaming up possibilities, which is probably why they're easily disappointed.
I feel like the bolded part is more lucid. The sense of internal rhythm and the consequent inclination towards prediction is more of a byproduct of the natural tendency to extract thematic or symbolic interpretations from situations. Where Si tracks the observable activity, compiling through the subjective perception of tangible processes, Ni implicitly removes itself from said things, and attempts to understand their internal representations. That's why it's been correlated with focusing on abstract images, and "dreaminess" before: because everything is seen as a fragment of an intangibly connected reality.
To quote a non-socionics but functionally-relevant statement:
This alludes to the non-localized, intangible nature of it. Once a "fragment" is perceived, an entire "whole" is constructed (or reconstructed, as it is a gradual process) from it. Everything is referenced through a relative sense of temporal harmony. So, the implicit assumption is somewhat contradictory: detachment from direct experience because of the underlying coherence that cannot be directly pointed to, with seemingly every "thing" referenced being a general indicator of that very thing.Introverted Intuitions are not really ideas. They're like trains at the edge of articulated knowledge. You can't claim them or advocate them. You put on a hat, grab hold of a boxcar door, and see where they go.
+100
4w3-5w6-8w7
You mean like general themes between stuff thats happened to you in the past?
Daydreaming (a chunky amount) is an unproductive use of Ni, it's such a waste of time and I find it drains my energy. Also while you are busy daydreaming, you are not fully experiencing what's going on outside your head - you are not using Ni in the present to predict future patterns, you are just focusing on make believe bullshit up in your head, my Ni is much stonger since I stopped the frequent daydreams.
IEI, sp/sx 4w3.
does not take effort / I would think it'd be the same with or without daydreaming.
actually, now that i think about it, doesn't daydreaming directly correlate with the prediction of these "future patterns"?
do tell, how???
Trying to halt some aspects of your personality will bring out other aspects.
Also, on the subject of Ni, does anyone relate to any of things on this page? When I was still stuck in MBTI-land, this is the first explanation of things that made me think that Ni had a significant role in how I process information, especially when I'm writing. Here are some especially relevant passages, to me:
This happens to me all the time while writing poetry/thinking about books. It's my assumption that it's just a connection that occurs in the brain that is to a degree unconscious, but also affected more directly by consciousness than most other unconscious stuff.Ni is a way of knowing (or at least thinking you know) that bypasses reason, facts, evidence, the expected or intended interpretations of signs, or anything you can point to, simply giving you an awareness or belief that seems indisputably true to you, period. You can't tell by introspection how you got this idea. There is no thought process. There is only tuning into this form of awareness and just knowing.
I don't know how related this is to socionics Ni, but that's definitely part of how I think. And Ni does lead one to think about the relationships between intangible things, and presumably one of the most important of these intangible relationships is the signifier-signified relationship. Also the freedom that this gives one's language could be a big part of why NiFe (and, in my opinion all Ni-egos, especially NiTe) is often associated with literature.Ni is orienting yourself by an explicit representation of the mapping between signs and meaning. For example, "This dark-stained mahogany table is supposed to make me think the owner is upper-class" or "We put north at the top of maps (rather than, say, the bottom or the right), because northern countries traditionally had more power, and we perceive 'higher on the page' to mean 'more important'." From an Ni standpoint, one doesn't feel oriented until one can articulate explicitly what are the signs one is supposed to look at and what are the meanings one is supposed to take from them.
Ni types are always trying to "see through" the fake stuff in order to get to the meaning, right?[Ni-dominants] are typically concerned with finding an independent and all-encompassing perspective on whatever interests them, so they can see it without bias, without being fooled or led along by ways in which other interests have set things up, and without a merely partial understanding.
Looking back, that's not really very socionics-y, but it was a great help to me at the time, so there's some thoughts, fwiw.
Not a rule, just a trend.
IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.
Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...
I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.
I relate to all of that MBTI Ni stuff, but aren't most INXPs Ni types in Socionics? I've taken time to read MBTI descriptions of INTP and the aspects not reflecting on Ti, which is most of what I read, go strongly with the ILI description, and MBTI Ti, for instance, seems to have parts of creative Te and Ni reflective of an ILI in there. Ti in Socionics also goes with some parts of MBTI Ti, and MBTI Te has a good amount of Socionics Ti there. So I think the whole INxx relation is relative. A lot of INTJs I have come across in my studies are LIIs, where as I'm one of the different ones.
I prefer to compare Ni to Si in that Si is basically an awareness of how sensations work together and how those sensations leave impressions on people. Ni is the same as Si except it's not explicit. Si is is pretty hard to understand, so when you make it implicit and unquantifiable it becomes almost impossible to understand. I think that if anyone really wants to understand Ni, you must first understand Si.
I'll try to give my best explanation, but I still don't have it solid in my mind.
Si is often associated with 'feeling' sensations as opposed to Se. I think of it as mostly an awareness or state of being in the moment and experiencing all the colors and sensations around you. A state of sensing.
I think that Ni is the same, but we don't really understand what a state of intuition really is. I think it might be a state of mind in general. It's essentially the state of mental happenings and how it affects people. I think it may be associated with being able to picture and play out scenarios in one's head. This is similar to how Si focuses on the scenario around one's self. Strong Ni would be able to connect one's self with mental imagery as opposed to Si connecting with sensual imagery. Ni types may able to sense other's mental states just as Si types can sense physical states.
I just came up with this.. so yeah
I think the comparison with Si is a good one. One's dominant and role are usually similar in methodology, but they're just adapted to a different frame. That is why I think everyone can usually be pretty good with their role function. But the metaphor of using the role function is kind of like not having the protective shield on. You're putting coal in the reactor, like you do with the dominant, but you're not wearing your safety gear so it gets too hot, you have to fall out of the process. That's how it feels to me.
Yeah it's like escaping the box, free to roam outside yourself, but then you don't have that protection. So it doesn't usually last long.
You can get out of your element with the role function, and be where you don't want to be opinion-wise. You can let your opinions run away with you when using it, if you aren't careful.
Well, going back to objects and fields, I don't really like those wordings. It's rather more of objective and subjective. But Si compared to Se, is that Si deals with things affecting the subject or person, where as Se is the subject or person affecting the things, more or less. Ni is also subjective, it deals with what affects the person, so a person is generally going to focus on "what could happen of self" sort of like Dr. Manhattens power of only seeing "his" past and future. But effects don't have to be realistic in that sense. A person could be deeply affected by their intuitive thoughts. But if you begin to see the terms of internal relating to introverted and external relating to extroverted in an intuitive sense, I think the contrast between these two elements will be clearer. Ni is internal intuition.
I think I got it.. Ni is basically a focus on the implicit happenings. This tends to lead to a focus on what we call time because the happenings of the now imply the happenings of the future. Also the happenings of the past imply the present and future. Ni types tend to daydream because they are extending beyond what is going on around them by focusing on what the scenario implies for the future. Even when they are not in a daydreaming state they are still focusing mainly on what will happen at least a few moments ahead of time. This also explains the victim romance style because if you are constantly thinking about what will happen you may become inhibited/standoffish.
I'm sure this has been said somewhere else, but it just came to me clearly.
The only problem with comparing Ni and Ne as an example is that, like you said, there is the object/field difference, but you also have to account for the dynamic/static difference. Comparing Ni to Ne is very difficult because of this especially since the difference of dynamic/static and object/field are much more crucial to an element than the superficial similarity of implicit/explicit.IMO
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