All the misconceptions about MBTI ENTJ type

[machintruc]

Most people think that ENTJ's are pushy and aggressive Nazi capitalists.

Check out here : http://ptypes.com/correspondence.html

I'm ENTJ, and I'm not pushy, nor am I aggressive. I'm not Gandhi, but I'm not ******. Besides, I'm not a stock market trader, and I'm not outstanding at managing money.

I'm not sadistic. I like to control or to lead others, but I don't make them suffer for sadistic pleasure.

I don't really fear submission (though not seeking it), even if I don't like to be pressured by some pushy retard.

I think, ENTJ is very badly described. I'm ENTJ, and have nothing to do with common descriptions.

[Ezra]

machintruc, if you remember, FDG and Expat were in agreement that only a seriously unhealthy person would relate to the ENTJ descriptions of MBTT. I strongly disagreed. I think there are a lot of neutral points you'll find in most descriptions of the ENTJ, and that most of the negativity arises out of people's perception and misconstruing of the ENTJ descriptions (regardless of where or not it's in relation to themselves or their own type).

[Ezra]

I think, ENTJ is very badly described. I'm ENTJ, and have nothing to do with common descriptions.

I'm interested to know with which parts you disagree about the ENTJ description.

[machintruc]

I'm interested to know with which parts you disagree about the ENTJ description.

Simply the fact that ENTJ's would be a bunch of pushy and aggressive dictators, like ESTJ's do. ENTJ's are not really described like ENTJ's, but more like fucked up ESTJ's.

[Joy]

or fucked up ESTPs

[Ezra]

Simply the fact that ENTJ's would be a bunch of pushy and aggressive dictators, like ESTJ's do. ENTJ's are not really described like ENTJ's, but more like fucked up ESTJ's.

Quote the descriptions on here where they claim that ENTJs would be "pushy and aggressive dictators", and while you're doing that, you may as well quote the descriptions that suggest ESTJs are the same way. I don't know what descriptions you've been reading, but I don't see anything especially unhealthy in this description, this one, this one, this one or this one.

machintruc, have you ever considered the possibility that you are not an ENTJ?

or fucked up ESTPs

Have you read this page? I posted it on the forum a while ago changing "ESTP" and "ENTJ" for "SLE" and "LIE" respectively. The results of this experiment were very interesting; I think only niffweed picked up that the last bit about luck and opportunity was in reverse; it said SLEs (ESTPs) are more adept in the area than LIEs (ENTJs), which is probably true from an MBTT perspective, but clearly not from a socionics one.

[Joy]

Cognitive Dynamic Differences. The cognitive dynamic pattern for ENTJ is Te, Ni, Se, Fi, with extraverted Sensing as relief role (tertiary) process and they often engage in quickly reading the external environment and are drawn to act on and shape that environment. This can easily look Artisan as they respond and adapt to what is going on, especially enjoying some of the more exciting Se activities. The ESTP pattern is Se, Ti, Fe, Ni; with Ni as the aspirational role (inferior) process. This can make them quite tuned into future payoffs and quite optimistic about what will happen in the future. They often get a sense of what is just around the corner and then want to seize the opportunities.

I definitely relate more to ESTP than ENTJ in this particular description of their differences.

[machintruc]

I don't see anything especially unhealthy in this description, this one, this one, this one or this one.

Nothing

machintruc, have you ever considered the possibility that you are not an ENTJ?

I've first considered being INTJ or INTP. But :

1. I'm an Extrovert : though I'm not very sociable, I'm not a reclusive retard. My internal world is just intended to "model" the external world. Besides, loneliness is pretty much draining and makes me angry. I'm stimulation-seeking rather than isolation-seeking. I'm rather outgoing, and I'm not a natural loner. Introtimness and D- still don't make me an Introvert.

2. It's evident that I'm Intuitive and Thinking...

3. I tend to seek closure rather than acting in an open-ended manner, and I can barely know what to do if I don't organise myself. I'm "decisive" rather than "easy-going". Then, a Judger.

Then, I'm ENTJ. Though ENTJ is often described as S0D+, S-D+, or S-D0, they can still be S0D-, especially if N+.

My Step-II is approximately like that :

Extraversion
Initiating, Expressive, Gregarious, Active (replaces Participative), Enthusiastic

Introversion
Receiving, Contained, Intimate, Reflective, Quiet

Sensing
Concrete, Realistic, Practical, Experiential, Traditional

Intuition
Abstract, Imaginative, Conceptual (replaces Inferential), Theoretical, Original

Thinking
Logical, Reasonable, Questioning, Critical, Tough

Feeling
Empathetic, Compassionate, Accommodating, Accepting, Tender

Judging
Systematic, Planful, Early Starting, Scheduled, Methodical

Perceiving
Casual, Open-Ended, Pressure-Prompted, Spontaneous, Emergent


Then, ENTJ.


SHITFUCK!!!

[Phaedrus]

And of course also LIE.

[machintruc]

And of course also LIE.

I'm not LIE, stupid

[Phaedrus]

I'm not LIE, stupid

Yes, you definitely are -- assuming that you are an ENTJ. Everything you say about your own behaviour and what you identify with clearly suggests LIE as your most likely type. Why are you so blind to the truth? It must be some irrational, personal motive, maybe some negative feelings you have associated with LIE or something, because from a scientific perspective your objections and your conclusions simply don't make sense. You must be a LIE according to the evidence you base your own conclusions upon.

[machintruc]

Yes, you definitely are -- assuming that you are an ENTJ. Everything you say about your own behaviour and what you identify with clearly suggests LIE as your most likely type. Why are you so blind to the truth? It must be some irrational, personal motive, maybe some negative feelings you have associated with LIE or something, because from a scientific perspective your objections and your conclusions simply don't make sense. You must be a LIE according to the evidence you base your own conclusions upon.

I'm not LIE.

LIE's are a whole bunch of boring nerds.

[Ezra]

This level of debate is hilarious. Two LIIs arguing for top spot.

[URL="http://www.bestfittype.com/cognitiveprocesses.html"]I definitely relate more to ESTP than ENTJ in this particular description of their differences.

Yep, that's exactly the bit I was talking about. I think it was niffweed who pointed out that the whole description except that last bit worked for LIE being an ENTJ and SLE being an ESTP. I don't know why the last bit suddenly reversed the types.

[Phaedrus]

I'm not LIE.

LIE's are a whole bunch of boring nerds.

Okay, but in that case you are not an ENTJ. Change that too INTJ or what other type you may prefer. But if you insist on being an ENTJ, then you must accept to be a LIE. The test results you refer to suggest LIE, that's for sure, and if you are not a LIE, you should try to explain that anomaly somehow. To simply ignore it is unacceptable.

[Brilliand]

1. I'm an Extrovert : though I'm not very sociable, I'm not a reclusive retard. My internal world is just intended to "model" the external world. Besides, loneliness is pretty much draining and makes me angry. I'm stimulation-seeking rather than isolation-seeking. I'm rather outgoing, and I'm not a natural loner. Introtimness and D- still don't make me an Introvert.

@Phaedrus: Here's a critical difference between MBTI and Socionics. Does trying to satisfy your dual-seeking make you an extrovert? It certainly doesn't make you an extratim, but is that the same thing?

[Phaedrus]

@Phaedrus: Here's a critical difference between MBTI and Socionics.

No. There is no difference.

Does trying to satisfy your dual-seeking make you an extrovert?

Of course not.

It certainly doesn't make you an extratim, but is that the same thing?

What machintruc describes in your quote of him makes him an extravert in both systems. And that means that if he believes that he is an LII his is delusional. He can't be a LII if what he says about himself is true.

Here is a sentence that is clearly anti-LII: "My internal world is just intended to "model" the external world."

[machintruc]

No. There is no difference.


Of course not.


What machintruc describes in your quote of him makes him an extravert in both systems. And that means that if he believes that he is an LII his is delusional. He can't be a LII if what he says about himself is true.

Here is a sentence that is clearly anti-LII: "My internal world is just intended to "model" the external world."

I'm basically an extroverted introtim.

SHITFUCK!!!

[Phaedrus]

I'm basically an extroverted introtim.

SHITFUCK!!!

Which, if true, means that you are definitely not an ENTJ. If you are an extroverted introtim, you are NECESSARILY an introverted type in MBTT and Keirsey. Don't make false statements about models you know nothing about. Learn MBTT and Keirsey CORRECTLY before you start to make claims about which type you are in those models. It is LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to be an extroverted introtim in Socionics and be an extraverted type in MBTT or Keirsey. Understand that, you fucking retarded moron.

[machintruc]

It is LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to be an extroverted introtim in Socionics and be an extraverted type in MBTT or Keirsey.

It is LOGICALLY POSSIBLE that you're such a delusional nerd.

[Phaedrus]

It is LOGICALLY POSSIBLE that you're such a delusional nerd.

A totally irrelevant comment that, even if it would be true, doesn't change the truth of what I said in my previous post.

[Brilliand]

Which, if true, means that you are definitely not an ENTJ. If you are an extroverted introtim, you are NECESSARILY an introverted type in MBTT and Keirsey. Don't make false statements about models you know nothing about. Learn MBTT and Keirsey CORRECTLY before you start to make claims about which type you are in those models. It is LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to be an extroverted introtim in Socionics and be an extraverted type in MBTT or Keirsey. Understand that, you fucking retarded moron.

So you're saying that MBTI, far from being messed up in its own right, is almost universally misunderstood? I find that concept very appealing. But if true, it still means that most of the MBTI literature should be ignored.

It is LOGICALLY POSSIBLE that you're such a delusional nerd.

I hereby accuse you of . Really, what do insults have to do with the question at hand?

On the other hand, it's very nice of you to try to satisfy Phaedrus's dual-seeking.

[machintruc]

I hereby accuse you of . Really, what do insults have to do with the question at hand?

On the other hand, it's very nice of you to try to satisfy Phaedrus's dual-seeking.

I'm not . I just think that swearing is fun.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

So you're saying that MBTI, far from being messed up in its own right, is almost universally misunderstood? I find that concept very appealing. But if true, it still means that most of the MBTI literature should be ignored.

What parts do you think we should ignore?

I hereby accuse you of . Really, what do insults have to do with the question at hand?

On the other hand, it's very nice of you to try to satisfy Phaedrus's dual-seeking.

What you are saying here is that insults are , but then insults can also be because the person using them is trying to illicit an emotional response. The can also be a lack of and because they are unaware of the effect(s) they may have on the receiver.

This is one of the problems on this site .. the interpretation range can be too great, and errors are therefore far too likely to (and do) occur.

[Phaedrus]

So you're saying that MBTI, far from being messed up in its own right, is almost universally misunderstood?

On this forum -- yes, definitely. By the MBTI practitioners -- no. And you are messing it up even further, because the MBTT is messed up functionally.

I find that concept very appealing. But if true, it still means that most of the MBTI literature should be ignored.

No. Most of the MBTT literature is based on empirical research, and that's a very good thing. We can -- and should -- pay special attention to everything that is written from an MBTT perspective about the types's behaviours and attitudes, because almost all of it is correct. And we should ignore almost everything written from an MBTT perspective about the functions, because almost all of it is wrong.

[machintruc]

Still, there's no viable proof that I'm not ENTJ.

[Phaedrus]

Still, there's no viable proof that I'm not ENTJ.

You can be an ENTJ -- but only if you are an LIE. If you're not a LIE ... well, then you are not an ENTJ. I don't care which you choose, but you cannot be two different types at the same time. Accept that you can only be one type, and move on with your life.

[machintruc]

You can be an ENTJ -- but only if you are an LIE. If you're not a LIE ... well, then you are not an ENTJ. I don't care which you choose, but you cannot be two different types at the same time. Accept that you can only be one type, and move on with your life.

I'm both LII and ENTJ. I'm right, you're wrong. Period.

[Phaedrus]

I'm both LII and ENTJ. I'm right, you're wrong. Period.

No. You are either an extravert or an introvert, because it is a biological phenomenon that is inborn. It is logically impossible to be both an introvert and an extravert.

[Brilliand]

Still, there's no viable proof that I'm not ENTJ.

Except defining ENTJ=ENTj at the expense of any description that says otherwise.

Which doesn't really bother me, because those descriptions are and most can be safely ignored (read: function 7 ).

[machintruc]

No. You are either an extravert or an introvert, because it is a biological phenomenon that is inborn. It is logically impossible to be both an introvert and an extravert.

No, but it's possible that I'm both an extrovert and an introtim.

you need to read this : http://socionist.blogspot.com/2008/0...traverted.html

[Brilliand]

No, but it's possible that I'm both an extrovert and an introtim.

you need to read this : http://socionist.blogspot.com/2008/0...traverted.html

Probably behavioral E/I is another layer of learned personality (along with subtypes) that should be taken into consideration, but can be changed. An EINTjT dualizes best with an IESFjF.

[Phaedrus]

No, but it's possible that I'm both an extrovert and an introtim.

No.

you need to read this : http://socionist.blogspot.com/2008/0...traverted.html

I have already read it. It's a good description. But you don't know what you are talking about. You believe that the "E" in "ENTJ" means something else than being extraverted (extratim) in the Socionics sense, but that is totally wrong. It's the exact same phenomenon. Every ENTJ is an extratim. And every LII is an introvert (I) in MBTT and Keirsey -- without exceptions.

[Brilliand]

Surrender your MBTI to Phaedrus, we don't need it anyway!

Er... why do I keep seeing MBTT? Is that a typo?

[Creepy-Cyclops]

From what I can tell, some people say that they can be an 'E' in socionics, yet an 'I' in MBTT. However, if you are an 'E' in MBTT, you *must* be an 'E' in socionics

Some quote from the article;

If you meet a pronounced social extravert who is always in the center of attention, always getting people together, and always making lots of noise and monopolizing situations, chances are he or she is also a socionics extravert ("extratim").

It does say 'chances are', but to clarify

The difference between an extraverted introtim and an extratim is that when they are being "active" and "extraverted," introtims are not really keeping track of the world around them, but are focused on themselves, whereas extratims are following and studying their environment at the same time.

Basically, this, and the article, appears to support that MBTT 'E' would also be 'E' in socionics.

[Phaedrus]

Surrender your MBTI to Phaedrus, we don't need it anyway!

Er... why do I keep seeing MBTT? Is that a typo?

No. MBTI is a typing instrument, a tool that is designed to determine your correct type. MBTT stands for Myers-Briggs Type Theory. MBTT is the equivalent of Socionics. MBTI is the equivalent of whatever test socionists use to determine your Socionics type.

[machintruc]

The difference between an extraverted introtim and an extratim is that when they are being "active" and "extraverted," introtims are not really keeping track of the world around them, but are focused on themselves, whereas extratims are following and studying their environment at the same time.

eeeh!!! that's totally me !!!

In fact, I'm usually loud and talkative, but have almost no vigilance. I'm a very poor listener.

When I have some burst of anger, I tend to look at myself and think "how cool am I to get angry ! I'm such a fuckin' powerful person !" (but no, obviously, I'm powerless). I feel like an actor or a dictator.


My president (Sarkozy) illustrates this better : he's pretty much an opinionated chatterbox, but lacks initiative and acts like he doesn't give a fuck about what others think, due to his inert and icy nature.

[Phaedrus]

eeeh!!! that's totally me !!!

Strong indication of extraversion.

In fact, I'm usually loud and talkative, but have almost no vigilance. I'm a very poor listener.

Most extratims are poor listeners in comarison to most introtims.

When I have some burst of anger, I tend to look at myself and think "how cool am I to get angry ! I'm such a fuckin' powerful person !" (but no, obviously, I'm powerless). I feel like an actor or a dictator.

Another indication of extraversion.

[Brilliand]

Well, I first looked at it as a really messed-up LII... but on second thought, that makes more sense as a hidden agenda than as a PoLR. What LII would enjoy flying off the handle?

[machintruc]

Strong indication of extraversion.

But not necessarily of extrotimness. Some introtims may be quite expressive, but use their favourite emotions a lot, and need an extra effort to express themselves as appropriate.

For example, LSI's favourite emotion tends to be loud anger, IEI's to be some kind of light bubbliness, ILI's to be passive hostility, or such.

Most extratims are poor listeners in comarison to most introtims.

I'm an introtim, and I'm a poor listener.

Another indication of extraversion.

But not of extrotimness. Just look at how much I'm using the word "I".

[Phaedrus]

But not necessarily of extrotimness.

How many times do I have to tell you that there is no difference between extraversion and extratimness? It's the exact same phenomenon.

Some introtims may be quite expressive, but use their favourite emotions a lot, and need an extra effort to express themselves as appropriate.

Yes, and some introverts may be quite expressive, but use their favourite emotions a lot, and need an extra effort to express themselves as appropriate.

I'm an introtim, and I'm a poor listener.

If so, you are an introvert and a poor listener.

But not of extrotimness. Just look at how much I'm using the word "I".

Irrelevant. Clear indication (but no proof) of extratimness (extraversion).