What is the best way to raise/educate an ESTp child?

[pianosinger]

Okay. So, I'm looking for advice from those who are either SLE themselves or have extensive experience with SLE's.

How should I go about raising/teaching/disciplining my SLE to help ensure that he grows up to be a considerate, integritous (is that a word?), independent, contributing member of society?

I'm not saying he has to be a goody two-shoes, but I would like to prevent him from getting into serious trouble.

[xerx]

Teach him how to be a good leader.

[Aiss]

SLEs are evil. You don't stand a chance.

...

Seriously, how does sociotype affect 'goodness' in someone? You can have parents in the opposite quadra and turn out alright after having fought down every rule besides "don't get in serious trouble" principle. While some of their friends' kids end up addicts and/or in prison. I'm inclined to say that it's those minor rules etc. that generate most socionics-related issues, avoiding serious trouble is just common sense - as long as you agree on what is serious trouble, that is. Probably not shielding the kid from learning it helps.

[stray]

If you're IEE, where's your dual? If I'm any indicator, we get a little aggro on bad SLEs. If your SLE grew up with an adult SLI (not to mention an IEE), he'd probably have a different sense of space with people. The ironic thing you'd have to worry about I think is if an upbringing like this sort of repressed him.

[pianosinger]

If you're IEE, where's your dual?

My father-in-law might be SLI.

My husband is ILI, so our son's semi-dual. And my son and I are super-egos.

SLE dual-seeking functions are Fe and Ni. So, I will probably be supplying most of the Fe I guess (my DS function), and Daddy will supply the Ni.

[Absurd]

Teach him how to be a good leader.

And feed him porridge.

[Aiss]

My father-in-law might be SLI.

My husband is ILI, so our son's semi-dual. And my son and I are super-egos.

SLE dual-seeking functions are Fe and Ni. So, I will probably be supplying most of the Fe I guess (my DS function), and Daddy will supply the Ni.

Since when are you Ti-dominant? I know everyone is supposed to look up to their supervisor, but honestly...

(DS stands for "dual-seeking".)

[Singu]

...Socionics is largely an unproven theory, this will not go well. And I'm usually against advice like "give him more Fe, give him more Ni", which are as vague and as meaningless as it gets.

[DirectorAbbie]

Give him plenty of choices and let him learn the hard way. Under no circumstance should you make an idle threat.

[Suz]

My father-in-law might be SLI.

My husband is ILI, so our son's semi-dual. And my son and I are super-egos.

SLE dual-seeking functions are Fe and Ni. So, I will probably be supplying most of the Fe I guess (my DS function), and Daddy will supply the Ni.

Fe is not your DS function (if you're still IEE that is). You mean demonstrative?

I sort of agree with singularity in this case, as far as trying to supply him with Fe or Ni or any other function.

However, with your knowledge of socionics, what you CAN control is just recognizing that his Fi-flubs are just his Fi-POLR and whatever over the top Fe antics he might be up to is just his Fe-HA,and not to criticize him too much for that or make him feel guilty for those things. He wont feel guilty and will only get irritated and make him distance himself or rebel (especially the POLR). Criticism of his hidden agenda will be taken as a grave insult. Criticism of his POLR will be cause irritation/anger.

The Fi-POLR is probably the most difficult part for an IEE to just accept (I know Fi-flubs rub me VERY VERY wrong, and i am quite sensitive to them), and will possibly be a challenge for your ILI husband (whose own hidden agenda is Fi) to accept as well. So that's probably the biggest point of conflict to watch out for with your son which will bother both parents a great deal. It will also bother the SLI.

So where socionics is most useful is really in the knowledge YOU have in understanding how his mind is working. Knowledge is power.

[Satan]

Okay. So, I'm looking for advice from those who are either SLE themselves or have extensive experience with SLE's.

How should I go about raising/teaching/disciplining my SLE to help ensure that he grows up to be a considerate, integritous (is that a word?), independent, contributing member of society?

I'm not saying he has to be a goody two-shoes, but I would like to prevent him from getting into serious trouble.

You shouldn't. What's all this considerate bullshit about. Just let him live.

Shit happens.

[limNol]

Just remember not to be too hard on yourself -- there are gonna be times when he really gets under your skin, and this is natural, even healthy. Partly because that's just how kids are, and especially because that's how kids from opposite quadras are! Keep this in mind, try to keep things in perspective even when he pulls stuff that seems crazy, and you'll both be fine.

[pianosinger]

(DS stands for "dual-seeking".)

yeah, thanks for clarifying that; I thought it meant "demonstrative."

Now I know...

[pianosinger]

Give him plenty of choices and let him learn the hard way. Under no circumstance should you make an idle threat.

Yup. I always follow through with my threats (and I do not make them rashly). Daddy's not always as good about this, mostly due to his inertia...therefore, he has more problems with trying to discipline our son.

[ashlesha]

i never got the impression she was saying SLEs are "bad." i doubt she thinks her son is inherently bad, lol. i took it as more of an opposing quadra interaction sort of question.

However, with your knowledge of socionics, what you CAN control is just recognizing that his Fi-flubs are just his Fi-POLR and whatever over the top Fe antics he might be up to is just his Fe-HA,and not to criticize him too much for that or make him feel guilty for those things. He wont feel guilty and will only get irritated and make him distance himself or rebel (especially the POLR). Criticism of his hidden agenda will be taken as a grave insult. Criticism of his POLR will be cause irritation/anger.

So where socionics is most useful is really in the knowledge YOU have in understanding how his mind is working. Knowledge is power.

Just remember not to be too hard on yourself -- there are gonna be times when he really gets under your skin, and this is natural, even healthy. Partly because that's just how kids are, and especially because that's how kids from opposite quadras are! Keep this in mind, try to keep things in perspective even when he pulls stuff that seems crazy, and you'll both be fine.

i like what they ^ said.

he's going to rub you the wrong way sometimes and what i think it comes down to the most is keeping things in perspective and not seeing his behavior as a personal affront. but this is probably true of raising kids regardless of type. but socionics works as a tool for seeing how someone is just being themselves and not trying to bother you, which is helpful. (i guess i just repeated what those i quoted said, hah.)

[pianosinger]

i never got the impression she was saying SLEs are "bad." i doubt she thinks her son is inherently bad, lol. i took it as more of an opposing quadra interaction sort of question.

This.

Obviously, he has a lot of potential to do good things (MBTI calls ESTP "the doer"), to be a leader (as jxrtes pointed out). He also has the potential to be perceived by others as a "bully" because of his "in-your-face" approach and physicality.

We are going to get him into sports this next summer. He's going to need the outlet after being cooped up indoors most of the winter. We really need to find ourselves a bigger home with more room for running...

[stray]

If he learned how to be diplomatic or not take the lead unnecessarily, he'd be cool. There's nothing wrong with an in-your-face attitude, but you gotta be cool about it..and directed right. Cool leaders are also the ones who can make people feel like they might get something out of it too.

And it's not that some are upset by the physicality. There are kids who don't care about anyone's display of power, and throw it back in their faces. It's just better if he avoided it. Since we're talking about kids, I remember one, for example, who I knew back in the day who might have been SLE. He always needed to be the leader. Even in the smallest things, like getting ahead of everyone when we were riding bikes or something. One day I decided to push him off his bike and we got in a little fight.. I settled it, but I didn't want take any lead or replace him. I didn't do it for those reasons. Even back then, I think there might have been some quadra differences really playing out. I just wanted him to chill out, have everyone be friends, and not be reminded that I was part of some stupid pecking order. There isn't a need for leaders in all things (the next day we were getting along again btw.. He even bought me tacos. Cool guy).

[Satan]

If he learned how to be diplomatic or not take the lead unnecessarily, he'd be cool. There's nothing wrong with an in-your-face attitude, but you gotta be cool about it..and directed right. Cool leaders are also the ones who can make people feel like they might get something out of it too.

And it's not that some are upset by the physicality. There are kids who don't care about anyone's display of power, and throw it back in their faces. It's just better if he avoided it. Since we're talking about kids, I remember one, for example, who I knew back in the day who might have been SLE. He always needed to be the leader. Even in the smallest things, like getting ahead of everyone when we were riding bikes or something. One day I decided to push him off his bike and we got in a little fight.. I settled it, but I didn't want take any lead or replace him. I didn't do it for those reasons. Even back then, I think there might have been some quadra differences really playing out. I just wanted him to chill out, have everyone be friends, and not be reminded that I was part of some stupid pecking order. There isn't a need for leaders in all things (the next day we were getting along again btw.. He even bought me tacos. Cool guy).

blah blah you're really boring. does anybody listen to you?

[Satan]

Yup. I always follow through with my threats (and I do not make them rashly). Daddy's not always as good about this, mostly due to his inertia...therefore, he has more problems with trying to discipline our son.

Maybe you want to shift from saying Daddy to his father. It makes you look immature and weak.

[Satan]

i never got the impression she was saying SLEs are "bad." i doubt she thinks her son is inherently bad, lol. i took it as more of an opposing quadra interaction sort of question.

fwiw my mother seems to think i'm bad. i don't really care though. and it's not all the time. but whatever her type is she gets guarded with me at times.

[stray]

blah blah you're really boring. does anybody listen to you?

Probably more than you. You actually take talking shit on the internet seriously, for one. If you're actually an SLE, this already says enough on how much you're starving for Fe to go "here" and pull this schtick. Forget about me. Check yourself.

[pianosinger]

Probably more than you. You actually take talking shit on the internet seriously, for one. If you're actually an SLE, this already says enough on how much you're starving for Fe to go "here" and pull this schtick. Forget about me. Check yourself.

[Absurd]

I will be checking his oil soon but don't tell anyone.

[Suz]

Probably more than you. You actually take talking shit on the internet seriously, for one. If you're actually an SLE, this already says enough on how much you're starving for Fe to go "here" and pull this schtick. Forget about me. Check yourself.

The best rule of thumb I've found with mercutio is to just ignore him. Which is easy because he usually bores me and speaks of lame things and picks lame fights.

[Suz]

I will be checking his oil soon but don't tell anyone.

omg... LOL!

[Absurd]

omg... LOL!

Yea, stay the fuck at socionix you bullly old cunt.

[pianosinger]

ime ESTps seem inclined to doubt other people's intentions & motivations towards them - so, might need re-assurance. Also seem to sort of be inclined to miss how some of their actions actually have consequences - not too sure on what to do about how to approach this bit.

This ^ is my son all the way. He really needs consistency over a long period of time before he really starts to think before he acts. And if I even flub up on being consistent one time, we're back to level one.

other then that, they seem to be able to build a large network of social connections, have great charisma.

You know, it seems like every single little kid at church just adores my son, and knows his name. And then there's my son, who is just totally oblivious to it all (I'm hoping to keep it that way for as long as possible...). I mean, not oblivious in that he's unaware of the other children; but oblivious in that, he is unaware that all the attention is anything to get egotistical about.

[Creepy-male]

Okay. So, I'm looking for advice from those who are either SLE themselves or have extensive experience with SLE's.

How should I go about raising/teaching/disciplining my SLE to help ensure that he grows up to be a considerate, integritous (is that a word?), independent, contributing member of society?

I'm not saying he has to be a goody two-shoes, but I would like to prevent him from getting into serious trouble.

There are pretty much two qualities you have to worry about with SLEs

• They get bored easy and need a lot of sensory stimulation, sometimes this can lead to them being bigger risk takers than other types and can seem reckless. Something they personally find challenging and full of sensory stimulation can easily cut this edge and make them more focused and calm.
• They don't like to be micromanaged so don't schedule them up to their forehead with duties and activities. They are irrational types and have a creative disposition (Exxp temperament). They are more improvisational and independent in nature. Usually they know what they are interested in, allowing them to do this and focus their energy on this is better than filling up their schedules with activities like you would want to do for an Introverted Intuitive.

Don't worry about duality or intertype relationships or "showering" them with Ni, all of that is there own business and not your business as a parent. I'd say the biggest potential pitfall is in making sure their need for sensory stimulation doesn't lead them to be reckless, frustrated, and hyperactive. This is off put by making sure they aren't too constrained, SLEs are naturally productive and engaged in spirit, figure out what they enjoy doing, support them, and allow them to do this activity. Being over-protective is perhaps the worst thing. SLEs will quickly rebel against this and have the reverse affect on them I'd imagine. They occasionally need a little guidance being empathetic, but this is more provided via beta NFness than delta NFness, which they resent. If they get exposure to enough Beta NF stuff, usually they develop a healthy sense of empathy. Keep age in mind, don't expose them to serious beta NF stuff as a kid, as a kid, let them be active and don't diagnose them as ADD, don't guilt them or shame them when they mess up innocently, explain to them their errors... when they get older then allow them to get exposure to serious beta NF stuff and engage themselves in stimulating activities, naturally they will orient themselves to something productive and challenging being the "conqueror" type. Being too constraining will cause all their energy to be channeled into reckless socially deviant behavior and little exposure to beta NF stuff will leave them a bit resentful of society in an unhealthy way. Beta NFs tend to be a bit antisocial, but in a way that is compassionate and empathetic, if that makes sense?

[Beautiful sky]

In reading Christopher Reeve's (SLE type) autobio, I discovered that the aspects of his relationship with his father, which was not a good relationship, that he appreciated most was that his father taught him how to ski and later he picked up sailing, these two activities provided him with the sensory outlet he needed and he mentions how this helped him. Maybe take this as an example and pick two SLE activities that they really thrive on and allow the SLE to have this outlet.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

This thread makes me more comfortable with the idea of my brother as SLE. I'm trying to get him to bring things that will keep him entertained. Otherwise, my sister becomes his entertainment. >.>

[pianosinger]

There are pretty much two qualities you have to worry about with SLEs
They get bored easy and need a lot of sensory stimulation, sometimes this can lead to them being bigger risk takers than other types and can seem reckless. Something they personally find challenging and full of sensory stimulation can easily cut this edge and make them more focused and calm.

This has been so true with my boy. Pretty much the only way to get him to sit still is to put him in front of the television or computer (or in the car, haha). I worry about overdoing it with the media, but sometimes it's all I can do to keep my sanity, since I can't just send him outside to play as we do not have a private yard.

They don't like to be micromanaged so don't schedule them up to their forehead with duties and activities. They are irrational types and have a creative disposition (Exxp temperament). They are more improvisational and independent in nature. Usually they know what they are interested in, allowing them to do this and focus their energy on this is better than filling up their schedules with activities like you would want to do for an Introverted Intuitive.

I really like this advice. This one I don't think will be a big challenge for me, since I don't like a full and rigid schedule, either. It's really only been since Kid #2 was born that I've even had to start imposing some order on our lives (or at least, having to follow someone else's schedule besides my eldest's). But, for the most part I really do strive to keep things flexible and open and follow my kids' cues for when they're ready for certain activities. This has even meant that our boys usually don't go to bed until around 10:00 most nights, but the upside to that is that they tend to sleep in later in the morning...I am not looking forward to 8 AM Kindergarten in a couple years...

[Creepy-male]

Btw I think ENTp and ESTp are very similar except that ENTp's the issue is mental stimulation and ESTp's the issue is sensory stimulation.

[Suz]

There are pretty much two qualities you have to worry about with SLEs

• They get bored easy and need a lot of sensory stimulation, sometimes this can lead to them being bigger risk takers than other types and can seem reckless. Something they personally find challenging and full of sensory stimulation can easily cut this edge and make them more focused and calm.
• They don't like to be micromanaged so don't schedule them up to their forehead with duties and activities. They are irrational types and have a creative disposition (Exxp temperament). They are more improvisational and independent in nature. Usually they know what they are interested in, allowing them to do this and focus their energy on this is better than filling up their schedules with activities like you would want to do for an Introverted Intuitive.

Don't worry about duality or intertype relationships or "showering" them with Ni, all of that is there own business and not your business as a parent. I'd say the biggest potential pitfall is in making sure their need for sensory stimulation doesn't lead them to be reckless, frustrated, and hyperactive. This is off put by making sure they aren't too constrained, SLEs are naturally productive and engaged in spirit, figure out what they enjoy doing, support them, and allow them to do this activity. Being over-protective is perhaps the worst thing. SLEs will quickly rebel against this and have the reverse affect on them I'd imagine. They occasionally need a little guidance being empathetic, but this is more provided via beta NFness than delta NFness, which they resent. If they get exposure to enough Beta NF stuff, usually they develop a healthy sense of empathy. Keep age in mind, don't expose them to serious beta NF stuff as a kid, as a kid, let them be active and don't diagnose them as ADD, don't guilt them or shame them when they mess up innocently, explain to them their errors... when they get older then allow them to get exposure to serious beta NF stuff and engage themselves in stimulating activities, naturally they will orient themselves to something productive and challenging being the "conqueror" type. Being too constraining will cause all their energy to be channeled into reckless socially deviant behavior and little exposure to beta NF stuff will leave them a bit resentful of society in an unhealthy way. Beta NFs tend to be a bit antisocial, but in a way that is compassionate and empathetic, if that makes sense?

Wow, great post HLD!! Gives me some great insight into SLEs!

[silverchris9]

Btw I think ENTp and ESTp are very similar except that ENTp's the issue is mental stimulation and ESTp's the issue is sensory stimulation.

Hm... I'd qualify that. It's not so much sensory stimulation as experiential stimulation. It's more experiential vs. imaginative/mental than sensory vs. nonsensory. But otherwise, yeah, I'm really liking your posts on the subject. One question though. What is "Beta NF" stuff? Shakespeare? Emo music? Theater?

[limNol]

Beta NFs tend to be a bit antisocial, but in a way that is compassionate and empathetic, if that makes sense?

Would you mind elaborating? I've never really heard beta NFs, or any Fe egos for that matter, described as 'antisocial' before -- individual beta NFs, sure, but beta NFs in general? (especially EIEs!)

[Creepy-male]

I really like this advice. This one I don't think will be a big challenge for me, since I don't like a full and rigid schedule, either. It's really only been since Kid #2 was born that I've even had to start imposing some order on our lives (or at least, having to follow someone else's schedule besides my eldest's). But, for the most part I really do strive to keep things flexible and open and follow my kids' cues for when they're ready for certain activities. This has even meant that our boys usually don't go to bed until around 10:00 most nights, but the upside to that is that they tend to sleep in later in the morning...I am not looking forward to 8 AM Kindergarten in a couple years...

Yea lol the old adage in every single family movie they have with the parents not putting the kids in summer camp and loading them up with activities and so forth. Its fairly straightforward, just don't be that parent that's like "shut up here's an xbox, leave me alone", then ship them off the summer camp all break long, and then save a ticket to boarding school when they get really bad, or if you don't have the money send them to uncle joe the plumber, the first thing the kid will see is joe answer the door in a wifebeater with a koozie full of beer and he'll ask the kid "I got a bad leak in the septic tank system, know what a phillips screwdriver is?" then itch his crotch... that kids childhood will end so fast he won't ever disrespect you again. (not serious here obviously)

What is "Beta NF" stuff? Shakespeare? Emo music? Theater?

Lol now I'm the authority to explain to a Beta NF what Beta NF stuff is? Rofl. Does this qualify?



Nah I don't know I'll respond to this is another post soon.

I do like the word experiences better than sensory stimulation though, that seems to touch onto the concept a little better, sensory stimulation seems to imply a more hedonistic connotation.

[NewBorn STAR]

Estps raise themselves

[krieger]

you need to suppress their personality somehow. instill an inferiority complex into them.