Christian SLE Talking with a Luciferian IEI

[Azure Flame]

So I've been having one of the deepest conversations of my life recently.

For those who dont' already know, I'm a devout christian.

Recently met a luciferian IEI 4... possibly an EIE 4. She has spent an insane amount of time sifting through this stuff, she's very knowledgeable. She has delved into many different religions such as thelema, zen, buddhism, hinduism etc.

So this is completely messing with my head. The whole god / satan / atheism is almost always going to be a headache to talk about.

When I was in 8th grade, I spent countless hours obsessing over UFO stories, the book of revelations, the book of enoch, other ancient stories like atlantis, gilgamesh, myths about the great flood... I wanted to form a judgement for myself about what happened in the past.

Eventually I realized that christianity is all about faith that jesus is our savior. So I was like, ya know what? Se.

So I just decided, shit, lets just do it and see what happens. So I started believing christ was my savior, I started praying, I went to a church group party in arizona with one of my best friends (my conflictor mind you) and ever since then my life has been falling into place. On the verge of psychopathic destruction, I made a tearfilled prayer. 2 weeks later, a window openned up for me to leave the navy (not many people get to quit the navy). I was free from prison.

I've always considered this to be a miracle of its own. My faith has grown stronger since then. I also seem to have the hilarious trend of dating satanists who would tell me anything so as not to seem incompatible with them. The bible says that I am being tempted by the DEVIL!

so anyway here I am talking to yet another satanist.

She's telling me that jesus is actually lucifer and that he is the "morning star" or the "bringer of light." The book of revelations even has jesus quoting "I am the morning star."

Anyway she also tells me some stuff like, instead of seeing god's presence in everyone, she just sees "her angel's" presence. Because everyone has a guardian angel. So basically its like, we believe the same shit, except, what i think is god and jesus at work, she just think is the work of our "guardian angel."

So now, I'm sitting here wondering, hold on a second... what is going on? What am I supposed to make of all of this?

What seems obvious to me is that, SOMETHING IS HAPPENING, and that SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED, long ago. We don't actually know what it is, its all just speculation. Pretty sure its safe to say there was a flood at some point. The book of enoch says that god made the flood because he was pissed and earth was all fucked up cuz angels were sexing humans and teaching witchcraft etc. Apparently tarot talks about a similar event. There's also the lost city of atlantis, the epic of gilgamesh... all of these speak of a flood.

It seems to me, that no matter what I do, i will ONLY go in circles thinking about this. Its also my impression that she thinks about this a little too much.

If we have 2 supernatural beings battling it out, and i'm supposed to pick sides, what does that say about existence itself?

The logic involved, when taking both sides into account, is nearly flawless from both ends, it seems. Either that or she's really good at just making all kinds of shit up on the fly that makes logical sense, which I don't think is the case.

someone help me, my brain is exploding.

[Narc]

lol

[Azure Flame]

ok.

I think luciferianism loses over the simple fact, that its way too fucking complicated.

[Creepy-theticalanti]

So I've been having one of the deepest conversations of my life recently.

For those who dont' already know, I'm a devout christian.

Recently met a luciferian IEI 4... possibly an EIE 4. She has spent an insane amount of time sifting through this stuff, she's very knowledgeable. She has delved into many different religions such as thelema, zen, buddhism, hinduism etc.

So this is completely messing with my head. The whole god / satan / atheism is almost always going to be a headache to talk about.

When I was in 8th grade, I spent countless hours obsessing over UFO stories, the book of revelations, the book of enoch, other ancient stories like atlantis, gilgamesh, myths about the great flood... I wanted to form a judgement for myself about what happened in the past.

Eventually I realized that christianity is all about faith that jesus is our savior. So I was like, ya know what? Se.

So I just decided, shit, lets just do it and see what happens. So I started believing christ was my savior, I started praying, I went to a church group party in arizona with one of my best friends (my conflictor mind you) and ever since then my life has been falling into place. On the verge of psychopathic destruction, I made a tearfilled prayer. 2 weeks later, a window openned up for me to leave the navy (not many people get to quit the navy). I was free from prison.

I've always considered this to be a miracle of its own. My faith has grown stronger since then. I also seem to have the hilarious trend of dating satanists who would tell me anything so as not to seem incompatible with them. The bible says that I am being tempted by the DEVIL!

so anyway here I am talking to yet another satanist.

She's telling me that jesus is actually lucifer and that he is the "morning star" or the "bringer of light." The book of revelations even has jesus quoting "I am the morning star."

Anyway she also tells me some stuff like, instead of seeing god's presence in everyone, she just sees "her angel's" presence. Because everyone has a guardian angel. So basically its like, we believe the same shit, except, what i think is god and jesus at work, she just think is the work of our "guardian angel."

So now, I'm sitting here wondering, hold on a second... what is going on? What am I supposed to make of all of this?

What seems obvious to me is that, SOMETHING IS HAPPENING, and that SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED, long ago. We don't actually know what it is, its all just speculation. Pretty sure its safe to say there was a flood at some point. The book of enoch says that god made the flood because he was pissed and earth was all fucked up cuz angels were sexing humans and teaching witchcraft etc. Apparently tarot talks about a similar event. There's also the lost city of atlantis, the epic of gilgamesh... all of these speak of a flood.

It seems to me, that no matter what I do, i will ONLY go in circles thinking about this. Its also my impression that she thinks about this a little too much.

If we have 2 supernatural beings battling it out, and i'm supposed to pick sides, what does that say about existence itself?

The logic involved, when taking both sides into account, is nearly flawless from both ends, it seems. Either that or she's really good at just making all kinds of shit up on the fly that makes logical sense, which I don't think is the case.

someone help me, my brain is exploding.

Regarding the flood, yes I believe something happened. Scientists have examined the rocks and minerals on tops of mountains and have found seashells and other evidence that indicated water levels were once higher - much, much higher. And the story of the 'flood' is common in various religions. Even Greek mythology has references to it.

Honestly, regarding religion, it's not something I worry about much anymore. Like you said, it seems obvious that something HAS happened, and something IS happening right now. And in general, different religions argue against each other that 'they' are right, and they all have great logic/viewpoints. I feel similar to you - in my sensor brain, I don't see any concrete proof for any one thing. I just try to live my life with respect for other people and hope that my Creator can respect that I've used my personal talents in this world and tried helping others along their journeys.

Sometimes I'll drift back to Christianity, sometimes drift away lol - perhaps this is my subconscious trying to 'dualize' in some way as well haha. But my brain just gets tired thinking of all the metaphors that most religious people use. I do believe there's a need for it in society - it's just that other people seem to be much better at being religious and faithful than I am.

I will say, in life, you shouldn't be intimidated by people with more knowledge than you. Sometimes your feelings, gut, and intuition can save you lots of time. If this Luciferian out-debated you, that doesn't mean from your experience and heart in Christianity that you're wrong - they could be wrong. Who knows, right? In the end, in your personal journey, you have to believe and stick to something that works for you, right?

I do have an SLE friend who, similar to you, was a non-believer, dating a non-believer, before accepting God into his heart as a Christian as a young adult. He's now married to an IEI Christian whom he was able to find, and they are both building a business together, love spending time with each other, go on cool vacations & trips and do a lot of fun things, happily married.

Do you consider yourself a reader, DJ? If so, I would suggest you read "Wild at Heart" by John Eldredge. It's an amazing book that will shake you. I believe he's SLE, and he's very passionate about how men pursue both faith and masculinity at the same time. I still use concepts from his book in my life every single day. It was a bit tough for me to read and understand his perspective (quasi-identical relationship lol), but I found tremendous value in it - perhaps you would get even more value out of it.

[rat1]

Both words Satan and Lucifer have been horribly mistranslated from Hebrew. The deity of Satan who christians believe exists is someone they invented along the course of history.. The original hebrew phrase only appears twice in the original hebrew bible as 'the satan', and it means 'the adversary'. Both of the uses were not referring to a deity, but individual adversaries. In the book of job the word is used to refer to an angel God himself dispatched. I forgot where the other place the term was used was, but it was actually referring to a man then... it isn't important where it was, google it if you want to know.

From the two uses of the word, over time, Satan grew as a superstitious deity of opposition and fear in the minds of theists. As bibles were retranslated from one generation to the next scribes began substituting 'satan' in place of other conflicted oppositional words or phrases. Now what you have is a bible filled with the term 'Satan' apparently in reference to some diety which never infact existed.

The word 'Lucifer' comes from latin 'the luxfer' which in turn was a mistranslation / transliteration from the original hebrew phrase 'the light bearer' - a phrase which refers to the planet venus. Venus was referred to as the lightbearer as it often pops up over the horizon preceding the rising sun. Venus as a planet has always been associated with sensual indulgence. It is for this reason the mistranslation of venus into 'lucifer', a deity, stuck and embedded itself into the minds of theists - their superstitions regarding anything sensual in nature make them a very neutoric brand of people.

The entity Satan is a projection of fears surrounding death. Most of the things the christian bible considers sin are things which may lead to expulsion or reprimands in a culture, and possibly lead one to ones death. These are crimes of social disharmony. The two philosophies also define the conflict between the upper & lower class...

Satanism is really a naturalist philosophy. It's all about appreciating ones animal nature. The name Satanism is really not relevant to the philosophy; it was chosen to sardonically mock the biblical anxiety toward natural animal behavior. A real Satanist is not going to indebt himself to another diety, because that's contrary to his philosophy. Some people mighty pray or do rituals to Satan, but they are poseurs who have no clue what they are really thinking.

God/"Satan" (the dark side) have always been the same force, they have always ruled the world together. If you look at the natural world everything which is alive preyed on something that died... the whole food chain is based on the relationship between life and death. Without death there couldnt be existence.

You can learn & follow the bible for its survival / social success value while realizing it is culturally biased... most people try to balance both of these worlds by default anyway.

[Beautiful sky]

Both words Satan and Lucifer have been horribly mistranslated from Hebrew. The deity of Satan who christians believe exists is someone they invented along the course of history.. The original hebrew phrase only appears twice in the original hebrew bible as 'the satan', and it means 'the adversary'. Both of the uses were not referring to a deity, but individual adversaries. In the book of job the word is used to refer to an angel God himself dispatched. I forgot where the other place the term was used was, but it was actually referring to a man then... it isn't important where it was, google it if you want to know.

From the two uses of the word, over time, Satan grew as a superstitious deity of opposition and fear in the minds of theists. As bibles were retranslated from one generation to the next scribes began substituting 'satan' in place of other conflicted oppositional words or phrases. Now what you have is a bible filled with the term 'Satan' apparently in reference to some diety which never infact existed.

The word 'Lucifer' comes from latin 'the luxfer' which in turn was a mistranslation / transliteration from the original hebrew phrase 'the light bearer' - a phrase which refers to the planet venus. Venus was referred to as the lightbearer as it often pops up over the horizon preceding the rising sun. Venus as a planet has always been associated with sensual indulgence. It is for this reason the mistranslation of venus into 'lucifer', a deity, stuck and embedded itself into the minds of theists - their superstitions regarding anything sensual in nature make them a very neutoric brand of people.

Satanism is really a naturalistic philosophy. It's all about appreciating ones animal nature. The name Satanism is really not relevant to the philosophy; this name was chosen to sardonically mock the biblical anxiety toward natural animal behavior. A real Satanist is not going to indebt himself to another diety, because that's contrary to his entire philosophy. Some people may actually pray or do rituals to Satan, but they are poseurs who have no clue what they are really thinking.

God/"Satan" (the dark side) have always been the same force, they have always ruled the world together.

this

you're right rat

"satan" in hebrew isn't the devil...it's something less polarized.

[xerx]

"I am the morning star.".

Putting aside the pointless debate about the literal vs metaphorical nature of religion, this is an interesting quote which imo is a product of a complex personality with a sophisticated understanding of good and evil. (Assuming it wasn't just said for shock value).

[Saberstorm]

Here is the answer concerning the quote: "I am the morning star."

http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_morningstar.html (This one addresses if Jesus is Lucifer)


Here is a different discussion on the passage: (it discusses the use of the term in the Revelation 22:16.)

http://biblehub.com/revelation/22-16.htm

For those intimidated by the length of the first article, here is the summery:

(THIS IS ALL A QUOTE:

In response to the question, "Is Jesus the 'Bright Morning Star', or is 'Lucifer'? I have always thought "Lucifer" was the devil, but now I am confused because I see the term also used of Christ?" by Dean VanDruff.


The Bright Morning Star goes to the misnomer of "Lucifer", which is an incorrect title for Satan or the Devil taken from the King James Version of Isaiah 14:12. Were it not for this odd transliteration, "Lucifer" would not exist as a term in English, and there would be no confusion on the matter. As it is, we need to be careful, I would suggest, in using the term to describe who the Bible calls "Satan" or "the Devil". Most Christians are onto this, yet still the term "Lucifer" persists. In any case, the "morning star" is the title of Christ throughout the rest of Scripture.


2Pet 1:19 (NIV) And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
Rev 2:28 (NIV) I will also give him the morning star.

Rev 22:16 (NIV) "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Since it is clear that Jesus is the "Bright Morning Star" (even said so Himself) then how should we understand Isaiah 14:12?


Isa 14:12-15 (NIV) How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.

This should be understood as a sardonic title for the "anti-christ" or beast. He claims to be "christ", right? He claims to be Messiah, and has his moment under the sun, but comes to be brought low ultimately. Contrast the real Bright Morning Star: He lives humbly, does not boast, is not arrogant, is submissive to the Father... even unto death. Then the Father raises Him to the highest place; in the morning so to speak.


Mat 23:12 "For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

Jesus lives out the gospel: death first, resurrection second. Satan wants it all now, and will go down ultimately. Satan looks good at night, but goes down in flames in the morning. Jesus is in the tomb, but arises in the morning. Do you see the pattern? Who is your life most like? What are we encouraging in others, to follow Christ in the gospel, or to grab all you can now? The difference is as wide as Jesus and Satan.

END OF QUOTE

[kadda1212]

So I've been having one of the deepest conversations of my life recently.

For those who dont' already know, I'm a devout christian.

Recently met a luciferian IEI 4... possibly an EIE 4. She has spent an insane amount of time sifting through this stuff, she's very knowledgeable. She has delved into many different religions such as thelema, zen, buddhism, hinduism etc.

So this is completely messing with my head. The whole god / satan / atheism is almost always going to be a headache to talk about.

When I was in 8th grade, I spent countless hours obsessing over UFO stories, the book of revelations, the book of enoch, other ancient stories like atlantis, gilgamesh, myths about the great flood... I wanted to form a judgement for myself about what happened in the past.

Eventually I realized that christianity is all about faith that jesus is our savior. So I was like, ya know what? Se.

So I just decided, shit, lets just do it and see what happens. So I started believing christ was my savior, I started praying, I went to a church group party in arizona with one of my best friends (my conflictor mind you) and ever since then my life has been falling into place. On the verge of psychopathic destruction, I made a tearfilled prayer. 2 weeks later, a window openned up for me to leave the navy (not many people get to quit the navy). I was free from prison.

I've always considered this to be a miracle of its own. My faith has grown stronger since then. I also seem to have the hilarious trend of dating satanists who would tell me anything so as not to seem incompatible with them. The bible says that I am being tempted by the DEVIL!

so anyway here I am talking to yet another satanist.

She's telling me that jesus is actually lucifer and that he is the "morning star" or the "bringer of light." The book of revelations even has jesus quoting "I am the morning star."

Anyway she also tells me some stuff like, instead of seeing god's presence in everyone, she just sees "her angel's" presence. Because everyone has a guardian angel. So basically its like, we believe the same shit, except, what i think is god and jesus at work, she just think is the work of our "guardian angel."

So now, I'm sitting here wondering, hold on a second... what is going on? What am I supposed to make of all of this?

What seems obvious to me is that, SOMETHING IS HAPPENING, and that SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED, long ago. We don't actually know what it is, its all just speculation. Pretty sure its safe to say there was a flood at some point. The book of enoch says that god made the flood because he was pissed and earth was all fucked up cuz angels were sexing humans and teaching witchcraft etc. Apparently tarot talks about a similar event. There's also the lost city of atlantis, the epic of gilgamesh... all of these speak of a flood.

It seems to me, that no matter what I do, i will ONLY go in circles thinking about this. Its also my impression that she thinks about this a little too much.

If we have 2 supernatural beings battling it out, and i'm supposed to pick sides, what does that say about existence itself?

The logic involved, when taking both sides into account, is nearly flawless from both ends, it seems. Either that or she's really good at just making all kinds of shit up on the fly that makes logical sense, which I don't think is the case.

someone help me, my brain is exploding.

First of all, thanks for sharing this.

I actually made a similar journey through my faith, well, slightly different order maybe. I was 11 when my life started to get really complicated with me being bullied in school and my father developing a schizoaffective psychosis. I couldn't take it any longer and thought about dying a lot, but at some point I started praying and I felt that God was there. I started playing worship songs on my guitar which has eventually led me to being a worship leader at our church's youth group.

But I was always interested in mythology and the weird stories of the Bible (e.g. the Nephilim), watched documentaries about what could have really happened, tried to find a solution for the question "Evolution or Creation?", and so on. I'm studying Christian Archaeology and Classical Philology now, so I learned a few methods, that also help me understand the Bible better. So, I can try to help you here.

So, concerning the great flood: it's also a story know by the Ancient Greeks. There it is Zeus destroying everything because humans don't pray to him anymore and only one couple survives, Deukalion and Pyrrha. Apparently the flood really took place, though it was maybe not the whole planet covered by water, but only a very large area. At some point long ago the Mediterrenean Sea and the Black Sea were caused to flow together, so that whole area was covered with water. It was one of the worst natural catastrophes that ever happened and of course people remember it and tell it to their children.

About the devil: the Bible is in some parts influenced by Zoroastrianism, which is based on a strong dualism between good and evil. Well, I think, that battle is really waging, but it's clearly Satan who is the aggressor and also the one who's going to lose in the end. He already lost when Jesus died on the cross, but he still doesn't give up.

The problem with satanists is that their aim is to become God themselves. They shape their world image around that idea so that there is no superior being they have to be devoted to and that they are able to lead their lives the way they want. So, some of them completely deny the existence of God, which would be atheistic satanism (not saying every atheist is a satanist), some of them are just making up a mixture of religions and weird ideas, reducing everything to angels and demons and esoteric things and conspiracy theories going on. They want people to think they are spiritual, but actually what they believe in is only themselves, kind of narcissistic. :/

[Esaman]

@DJ Arendee
What is the question?
You don't have a problem with her intelligence.
You don't have a problem with her morality/goodness/whatever.
You enjoy similar kind of bullshit.

Oh, found it: " What am I supposed to make of all of this?"

That your beliefs are unsupported.
Enjoy her story as you do yours.

[rat1]

The problem with satanists is that their aim is to become God themselves. They shape their world image around that idea so that there is no superior being they have to be devoted to and that they are able to lead their lives the way they want. So, some of them completely deny the existence of God, which would be atheistic satanism (not saying every atheist is a satanist), some of them are just making up a mixture of religions and weird ideas, reducing everything to angels and demons and esoteric things and conspiracy theories going on. They want people to think they are spiritual, but actually what they believe in is only themselves, kind of narcissistic. :/

This is too categorical & dismissive... When you say the individual is not God do you forget that Gods essence is in everything? God is within the individual... the individual is 'God'.

[kadda1212]

This is too categorical & dismissive... When you say the individual is not God do you forget that Gods essence is in everything? God is within the individual... the individual is 'God'.

I'm not a pantheist. I don't believe that humans are God, although I believe we are created in the image of God and he lives in us. But I was referring to that idea of becoming like God, Satan tempted us to think about. It's probably more a question of hierarchy.

[rat1]

I'm not a pantheist. I don't believe that humans are God, although I believe we are created in the image of God and he lives in us. But I was referring to that idea of becoming like God, Satan tempted us to think about. It's probably more a question of hierarchy.

I don't know who or what you think God is, or how he works... if you even have an opinion about it. When you say we are created in the image of God, don't you mean that God imagined us? In the same way a person imagines something and can materialize it. You say we cannot become God, but we already are part of God. IT's like you're saying the whole is something separate from the parts. The whole and the part s actually define one another. You say Satan tempts us, but the deity Satan never existed in the original hebrew bible... Satan is also given reference to the genitals. So your genitals tempt you? What do you think the solution to being tempted by the genitals is... The bible would tell you to cut off your genitals. Embrace the sexual impulses, actualize your desires, and the temptation is fulfilled. That is what Satanism is all about... it's a healing philosophy.
Haven't you ever known a person who just craves more and more stimulation, but is never fulfilled? Well the reason for that is they're actually severely deprived in one area, and they are overcompensating for it in another. That's what happens to people who repress their desires.

[Eldanen]

I'm an atheist. My beliefs are pretty simple. My idea is that there are no gods or special powers. Everything we see is the result of some material cause. I don't bother thinking about a first cause or something like that, because I don't have enough evidence to work with. So everything on that point is pure cognitive speculation amounting to navel gazing.

I'm pretty sure than Christianity is an ordinary religion that was formed by a people several thousand years ago. The character of the gods described in that book seems like the character of the people who made them up. The illustration provided in the old testament is that of a sometimes kindly and sometimes brutally vindictive deity with the same amount of inconsistency of behavior as your average man. Morally, there are several unjustifiable episodes in the old testament, such as Jehovah ordering his troops to kill everyone, but save the virgins for themselves. (numbers 31:18)

I used to be heavily into religion. I've since put my head on right. I won't criticize your beliefs; those are just mine.

[Azure Flame]

The problem with satanists is that their aim is to become God themselves. They shape their world image around that idea so that there is no superior being they have to be devoted to and that they are able to lead their lives the way they want. So, some of them completely deny the existence of God, which would be atheistic satanism (not saying every atheist is a satanist), some of them are just making up a mixture of religions and weird ideas, reducing everything to angels and demons and esoteric things and conspiracy theories going on. They want people to think they are spiritual, but actually what they believe in is only themselves, kind of narcissistic. :/

The narcissism part is true. They do believe that they are god. It is similar to pantheism. What I find to be rather depressing is the fact that she doesn't believe other humans... exist? like, they do but they don't. Life is entirely about herself. She's not pathological, but her beliefs almost make her into an artificial narcissist because they require that she deny the existence and personal needs of others, as everything is all a part of some great big "plan."

My brother is an LII, we talk about this a lot. He often thinks himself in circles, and he said that when he thinks about life and rebirth etc, he just starts to feel depressed. He considers himself a pantheist.

I think the emotions of rebirth and nihilism are sort of summed up in this wierd archaic video.

[Azure Flame]

@DJ Arendee
What is the question?
You don't have a problem with her intelligence.
You don't have a problem with her morality/goodness/whatever.
You enjoy similar kind of bullshit.

Oh, found it: " What am I supposed to make of all of this?"

That your beliefs are unsupported.
Enjoy her story as you do yours.

While this might make sense, it destroys my relationship with god...The faith part is irrational and can only be done. Rationale and faith oppose one another.

[kadda1212]

I don't know who or what you think God is, or how he works... if you even have an opinion about it.

Of course I have an opinion about this. I read the Bible, I contemplate...my opinion is of course very much the same as other Christian's opinion.

When you say we are created in the image of God, don't you mean that God imagined us? In the same way a person imagines something and can materialize it. You say we cannot become God, but we already are part of God. IT's like you're saying the whole is something separate from the parts. The whole and the part s actually define one another.

I fail to understand your logic in some parts. I believe, we are created by God through his memra. But the creation is not the same as the creator, isn't it? It represents the creator. The Hebrew word for "image" which the Bible uses in Genesis in that very phrase "created in God's image" is the same as in one of the commandments "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image". So, you could say, in some way human beings are idols of God, images that represent him. But still we are not the same, just as my reflection in a mirror is not myself. Which doesn't mean that we are separated from him - yes, well separated through sin. That is sin: separation from God. Rebuilding the connection is only possible via sacrifice of blood. That's why Jesus had to die. He was the perfect and last sacrifice that was needed to be made. And now we are able to be connected to God once again.

You say Satan tempts us, but the deity Satan never existed in the original hebrew bible... Satan is also given reference to the genitals. So your genitals tempt you? What do you think the solution to being tempted by the genitals is... The bible would tell you to cut off your genitals. Embrace the sexual impulses, actualize your desires, and the temptation is fulfilled. That is what Satanism is all about... it's a healing philosophy.
Haven't you ever known a person who just craves more and more stimulation, but is never fulfilled? Well the reason for that is they're actually severely deprived in one area, and they are overcompensating for it in another. That's what happens to people who repress their desires.

What is all this about genitals??!... -_- The philosophy your talking about is not Satanism. It's Hedonism. Maybe the Satanists borrowed that philosophy.
And yes, a deity called Satan never existed. Because he is no deity. There is very little written in the Bible about angels and demons. Some verses can be interpreted though, especially Revelations 12:3-4 "³ Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. ⁴ Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth." As Revelations is written in an Hebrew holistic style, it makes references to future, past and present events, all mixed together. This one probably refers to an incident that happened before mankind was created, the stars resembling angels. And it fills the gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. So, I believe in the gap theory.
I mean, you're right when you say that Satan doesn't play that much a role in the Old Testament and Jews don't believe that something like the devil exists, then again many Jews don't believe in the afterlife. As a Christian I believe, that some things are only revealed over time. But still the Bible is full of prophecies and hints, you just have to read a little bit between the lines. And there's also no hierarchy between the parts of the Bible for me, meaning I don't think that the Old Testament is more important than the New Testament or the other way around.

[Esaman]

While this might make sense, it destroys my relationship with god...The faith part is irrational and can only be done. Rationale and faith oppose one another.

There is that. Have a relationship with people and your own heart. God is projection of the second to replace the first anyway. Faith can be placed somewhere there or in something abstract.
I am not saying that you have to or should, but that it would be better that way.

[kadda1212]

The narcissism part is true. They do believe that they are god. It is similar to pantheism. What I find to be rather depressing is the fact that she doesn't believe other humans... exist? like, they do but they don't. Life is entirely about herself. She's not pathological, but her beliefs almost make her into an artificial narcissist because they require that she deny the existence and personal needs of others, as everything is all a part of some great big "plan."

Her beliefs are really weird. Sometimes people get stuck in the systems they create. A friend of mine for example didn't believe in good and evil. At least that was what she repeatedly stated. On the other hand she made moral judgements all the time, not directly, but she still had a strong moral system she followed. And she was the one who always wanted to discuss things like what would be the right punishment for child molesters. But still denying the concept of good and evil was her killer argument for everything, especially the question of theodicy. I think, she was just scared of dealing with it.
It could be similar in the case of that luciferian acquaintance of yours. Maybe she's scared of dealing with the personal needs of others, that's why she denies their very existence.

[rat1]

I fail to understand your logic in some parts. I believe, we are created by God through his memra. But the creation is not the same as the creator, isn't it? It represents the creator. The Hebrew word for "image" which the Bible uses in Genesis in that very phrase "created in God's image" is the same as in one of the commandments "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image". So, you could say, in some way human beings are idols of God, images that represent him. But still we are not the same, just as my reflection in a mirror is not myself. Which doesn't mean that we are separated from him - yes, well separated through sin. That is sin: separation from God. Rebuilding the connection is only possible via sacrifice of blood. That's why Jesus had to die. He was the perfect and last sacrifice that was needed to be made. And now we are able to be connected to God once again.

Blood.... happens. Look at the animal kingdom. Look at what our nation is doing to other countries. Look at what we do to chickens. Have you ever seen a documentary on henhouses? Look at the fact that we are all going to die. You cannot hide from death, or blood.

In the same sense that a piece of art reflects the person who made it, we are a reflection of 'God' (the universe) which produced us. When the christian God is not satisfied with a creation, he tends to destroy it. When people - non artistic people - are not satisfied with their creations, they tend to destroy them. My point is not that God and individuals are completely indistinct... yes, the whole is distinct from the parts. But more that the whole and parts; God and the individual, are inseparably linked. We are a perfect reflection of God, not an imperfect one. God is within us. All our 'sins' are a part of God. All the blood and death and violence is part of Gods experience. It is ok to make mistakes and continue growing... You have to accept your creations for what they are. That said I do believe that we have to keep trying, that there is a fundamental will to survive and to better the creation. My main point is that mistakes are not something to resent, they are not a source of hatred.. they're not something to be persecuted or demeaned to. All those things the christian God does, and takes it way too far to the point of being a crazy asshole.

What is all this about genitals??!... -_- The philosophy your talking about is not Satanism. It's Hedonism. Maybe the Satanists borrowed that philosophy.
.

Satanism ... it is hedonistic social philosophy. Yes, it's hedonism. So satanism is all about hedonism... Good job.
Genitals... They're the source of all your sinliness.

And yes, a deity called Satan never existed. Because he is no deity. There is very little written in the Bible about angels and demons. Some verses can be interpreted though, especially Revelations 12:3-4 "³ Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. ⁴ Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth." As Revelations is written in an Hebrew holistic style, it makes references to future, past and present events, all mixed together. This one probably refers to an incident that happened before mankind was created, the stars resembling angels. And it fills the gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. So, I believe in the gap theory..

This is referring to the constellation draconis...
There are 17 stars in the constellation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FileracoCC.jpg
each represented by 7 heads and 10 horns...
Dracons covered ~6 of the winter zodiac signs when the passage was written (pretty much the entire winter zodiac). So the red dragon, which is the beast, represents winter... christ slays the beast and brings the return of summer... he is the morning star which heralds in the rising sun; or lucifer, which means Venus.

I mean, you're right when you say that Satan doesn't play that much a role in the Old Testament and Jews don't believe that something like the devil exists, then again many Jews don't believe in the afterlife. As a Christian I believe, that some things are only revealed over time. But still the Bible is full of prophecies and hints, you just have to read a little bit between the lines. And there's also no hierarchy between the parts of the Bible for me, meaning I don't think that the Old Testament is more important than the New Testament or the other way around
.

Over time it has been revealed that Joseph Smith created the church of mormonism where he claims Jesus contacted him with a UFO and told him Utah was the holy land, and that he could marry any number of underage wives. Conveniently this holy pilgrimage allowed him to escape criminal persecution for his pedophilia. Now today we have millions who live by this code, and believe it will be revealed to them in time that it's correct. How could this happen? Because mormons are afraid that they might enjoy the experience of being raped as children, but don't want to find out. So Joseph Smith found out for them.

The bible is full of the authors way of rationalizing his God complex.

There's a bible story where a jewish hero (forgot his name) owes a debt, but he doesnt have the money to repay it. So what he does is he goes off and kills 20 random people, takes their shirts, and then offers them as repayment of the debt. And in the bible this was considered a demonstration of his great strength and godliness.
If you think that really happened then you are insane. It's just a myth... it's a cool story that they included to convey a concept.

[kadda1212]

Blood.... happens. Look at the animal kingdom. Look at what our nation is doing to other countries. Look at what we do to chickens. Have you ever seen a documentary on henhouses? Look at the fact that we are all going to die. You cannot hide from death, or blood.

Yes, I know what happens in henhouses. But what's that got to do with making sacrifices? The chicken in henhouses are not even proper sacrificial animals in a Biblical sense. Because they have to be perfect, without any flaw. Blood is where the soul resides, the Bible says. That's why it's not allowed to eat animal blood. Even for Christians it's actually not allowed.

In the same sense that a piece of art reflects the person who made it, we are a reflection of 'God' (the universe) which produced us. When the christian God is not satisfied with a creation, he tends to destroy it. When people - non artistic people - are not satisfied with their creations, they tend to destroy them. My point is not that God and individuals are completely indistinct... yes, the whole is distinct from the parts. But more that the whole and parts; God and the individual, are inseparably linked. We are a perfect reflection of God, not an imperfect one. God is within us. All our 'sins' are a part of God. All the blood and death and violence is part of Gods experience. It is ok to make mistakes and continue growing... You have to accept your creations for what they are. That said I do believe that we have to keep trying, that there is a fundamental will to survive and to better the creation. My main point is that mistakes are not something to resent, they are not a source of hatred.. they're not something to be persecuted or demeaned to. All those things the christian God does, and takes it way too far to the point of being a crazy asshole.

The God of the Old Testament is a wrathful God, I know. But his wrath was satisfied when Jesus died on the cross.
Still I believe, God is life. The absence of life is death. The absence of God is death. So death cannot be a part of God. Sin is also separation from God and causes death. That's why sin is also not a part of God. I think, that makes sense.

[rat1]

Yes, I know what happens in henhouses. But what's that got to do with making sacrifices? The chicken in henhouses are not even proper sacrificial animals in a Biblical sense. Because they have to be perfect, without any flaw. Blood is where the soul resides, the Bible says. That's why it's not allowed to eat animal blood. Even for Christians it's actually not allowed.

Death is a part of God. Death happens in reality. Death IS a part of life. Look at nature. Things die. That is the point. That's my meaning when I talk about blood. Satan / death / blood / pain / misery / the dark side... are all parts of reality that are fundamental and inescapable.
The true God is a neutral God, with both elements of light and darkness.... satan is a part of God.

The God of the Old Testament is a wrathful God, I know. But his wrath was satisfied when Jesus died on the cross.
Still I believe, God is life. The absence of life is death. The absence of God is death. So death cannot be a part of God. Sin is also separation from God and causes death. That's why sin is also not a part of God. I think, that makes sense.

When you say the wrathful God was satisfied when Jesus died on the cross, what this means on an unconscious level is you're satisfied with death and pain occuring elsewhere, outside your world, as long as you can ignore it. The true 'christ' is in the underclass, amongst the satanists. Christ IS Lucifer... your moral belief system is what kills him. And yet he was asking to be killed, preaching the way that he was.

Some people are just asking to be killed.

[kadda1212]

Death is a part of God. Death happens in reality. Death IS a part of life. Look at nature. Things die. That is the point. That's my meaning when I talk about blood. Satan / death / blood / pain / misery / the dark side... are all parts of reality that are fundamental and inescapable.
The true God is a neutral God, with both elements of light and darkness.... satan is a part of God.


When you say the wrathful God was satisfied when Jesus died on the cross, what this means on an unconscious level is you're satisfied with death and pain occuring elsewhere, outside your world, as long as you can ignore it. The true 'christ' is in the underclass, amongst the satanists. Christ IS Lucifer.

Pointless to argue with you. You believe this and I believe that. And it seems we use words in different ways, e.g. "life", which leads to misunderstandings.
Also, if you're already talking about elements like light and darkness. Darkness is just the absence of light. Just like cold is the absence of heat as an energy. In that same way I understand death to be the absence of life.

[rat1]

There is life and death. Both exist together in a transcendental state; both are one, part of the same entity which is God - divided by you into God and Satan. But your 'God' is not truly God, he part of a duality... He is brahma, Satan is shiva. The true God is Vishnu, or unnamable, and a combination of both of them. And "Life", in an unnamable sense you're imagining, is better thought of as a combination of life & death; of the known and unknown; than simply another sense of the word life. Sin never goes away, death never goes away. The unknown never leaves you... Your pussy will always be bothered.

[kadda1212]

There is no different way of using the term 'life'.

That's a matter of language. The English language is ... slightly disabled. Just as my own language, which is German. Both languages are just weird mixtures of Latin, some Greek, some Anglo-Saxon and some Germanic.
Take for example the Greek language which has a larger treasury of words. They have two different terms for life" (bios and zoe), both are referring to different aspects of what we roughly translate with "life". The also have three different words for "better".

[rat1]

This discussion should focus on duality and monism... life / death / the combination of them. That is the trinity which forms the basic model for our relationship with God and one another. On this archetypal level there is no different way of defining life. You can't define things without duality. Things existing in a transcendental state remain undefined. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_monism
So when you say life has transcendental meaning you deprive death of its transcendental meaning. The meaning of life is only transcendental in its relationship with death. Without sin, pain, Satan, and all these things, life would be meaningless.

[Pookie]

I feel as though Sardonic is being used incorrectly, but then again... it's one of those words that are hard to define.

Here's what i see here:
The IEI has labeled her beliefs Luciferian. Or whatever. Thats her "box".
Your box has the Christian label on it.
Those are the labels. Who's to say that what's in the box is so much different.
Life is about growing. Growing is picking up new things as you go. Friction creates growth.

Play with her box. If it causes angst or introspective manic, good. That means your learning something important about yourself. Eventually, if it's you it will stick. If not, you'll lose those thoughts and be better off from the experience.

[rat1]

Put your finger inside her box

[Iris]

The narcissism part is true. They do believe that they are god. It is similar to pantheism. What I find to be rather depressing is the fact that she doesn't believe other humans... exist? like, they do but they don't. Life is entirely about herself. She's not pathological, but her beliefs almost make her into an artificial narcissist because they require that she deny the existence and personal needs of others, as everything is all a part of some great big "plan."

Seems like it ultimately would become kind of a one-sided relationship.

Being in a relationship can make it easier to get through some of life's struggles. Relationships do require a certain amount of selflessness and empathy to be successful.

I think it is helpful if your partner shares your faith, or at least doesn't embrace one that is diametrically opposed to yours.

[blackburry]

So I've been having one of the deepest conversations of my life recently.

For those who dont' already know, I'm a devout christian.

Recently met a luciferian IEI 4... possibly an EIE 4. She has spent an insane amount of time sifting through this stuff, she's very knowledgeable. She has delved into many different religions such as thelema, zen, buddhism, hinduism etc.

So this is completely messing with my head. The whole god / satan / atheism is almost always going to be a headache to talk about.

When I was in 8th grade, I spent countless hours obsessing over UFO stories, the book of revelations, the book of enoch, other ancient stories like atlantis, gilgamesh, myths about the great flood... I wanted to form a judgement for myself about what happened in the past.

Eventually I realized that christianity is all about faith that jesus is our savior. So I was like, ya know what? Se.

So I just decided, shit, lets just do it and see what happens. So I started believing christ was my savior, I started praying, I went to a church group party in arizona with one of my best friends (my conflictor mind you) and ever since then my life has been falling into place. On the verge of psychopathic destruction, I made a tearfilled prayer. 2 weeks later, a window openned up for me to leave the navy (not many people get to quit the navy). I was free from prison.

I've always considered this to be a miracle of its own. My faith has grown stronger since then. I also seem to have the hilarious trend of dating satanists who would tell me anything so as not to seem incompatible with them. The bible says that I am being tempted by the DEVIL!

so anyway here I am talking to yet another satanist.

She's telling me that jesus is actually lucifer and that he is the "morning star" or the "bringer of light." The book of revelations even has jesus quoting "I am the morning star."

Anyway she also tells me some stuff like, instead of seeing god's presence in everyone, she just sees "her angel's" presence. Because everyone has a guardian angel. So basically its like, we believe the same shit, except, what i think is god and jesus at work, she just think is the work of our "guardian angel."

So now, I'm sitting here wondering, hold on a second... what is going on? What am I supposed to make of all of this?

What seems obvious to me is that, SOMETHING IS HAPPENING, and that SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED, long ago. We don't actually know what it is, its all just speculation. Pretty sure its safe to say there was a flood at some point. The book of enoch says that god made the flood because he was pissed and earth was all fucked up cuz angels were sexing humans and teaching witchcraft etc. Apparently tarot talks about a similar event. There's also the lost city of atlantis, the epic of gilgamesh... all of these speak of a flood.

It seems to me, that no matter what I do, i will ONLY go in circles thinking about this. Its also my impression that she thinks about this a little too much.

If we have 2 supernatural beings battling it out, and i'm supposed to pick sides, what does that say about existence itself?

The logic involved, when taking both sides into account, is nearly flawless from both ends, it seems. Either that or she's really good at just making all kinds of shit up on the fly that makes logical sense, which I don't think is the case.

someone help me, my brain is exploding.

hint: religion is never logical.


also:

security comes from a rock-of-ages allegiance and an investment of themselves in something outside themselves which they believe will give them stability and safety. Sixes want to feel protected and secure by having something bigger and more powerful than they guiding them. IBM will do, but so will the Communist party, or the Republican party or the church. The doctrines Sixes believe are important to them, but not as important as having someone to trust and believe in.


In a sense, Sixes have difficulty trusting their own minds, their own ability to know what to do without reference to ideas that are not their own. Thus, once Sixes have found some system of thought that seems reliable to them, they must constantly evaluate any new ideas that either contradict ro alter what they have understood to be true. They are looking for something—a set of guidelines, an authority—to supply them with a direction in life, to tell them what they can and cannot do, to give them more clarity, to put limits on them—in a word, for security. Of course, in one way or another, all nine personality types have some kind of relationship with authority figures and need some guidance and reassurance in life, but whether supporting authority, rebelling against it, or fearing it, Sixes seem to have the most issues in this area.

The key to understanding Sixes is that they are ambivalent: the two distinct sides of their personalities oscillate between aggressive and dependent tendencies. They feel both strong and weak, dependent and independent, passive and aggressive. As with Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, it is difficult to predict the state Sixes will be in from moment to moment. At each Level, they display a personality substantially different from what has gone before and what will follow.

To make matters more complicated, Sixes are not only ambivalent toward others, they are ambivalent toward themselves. They like themselves, and then disparage themselves, feeling inferior to others. They have confidence and then feel hopeless and defeated, as if they could not do anything without help from someone else. They feel weak-kneed and cowardly, then suddenly fill with rage and strike out at others. A double set of dependent and aggressive impulses operates in them, continuously interacting in various complex combinations because Sixes react ambivalently not only to the external authority, but to the internal authority, their superego.

[Saberstorm]

hint: religion is never logical.


also:

security comes from a rock-of-ages allegiance and an investment of themselves in something outside themselves which they believe will give them stability and safety. Sixes want to feel protected and secure by having something bigger and more powerful than they guiding them. IBM will do, but so will the Communist party, or the Republican party or the church. The doctrines Sixes believe are important to them, but not as important as having someone to trust and believe in.


In a sense, Sixes have difficulty trusting their own minds, their own ability to know what to do without reference to ideas that are not their own. Thus, once Sixes have found some system of thought that seems reliable to them, they must constantly evaluate any new ideas that either contradict ro alter what they have understood to be true. They are looking for something—a set of guidelines, an authority—to supply them with a direction in life, to tell them what they can and cannot do, to give them more clarity, to put limits on them—in a word, for security. Of course, in one way or another, all nine personality types have some kind of relationship with authority figures and need some guidance and reassurance in life, but whether supporting authority, rebelling against it, or fearing it, Sixes seem to have the most issues in this area.

The key to understanding Sixes is that they are ambivalent: the two distinct sides of their personalities oscillate between aggressive and dependent tendencies. They feel both strong and weak, dependent and independent, passive and aggressive. As with Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, it is difficult to predict the state Sixes will be in from moment to moment. At each Level, they display a personality substantially different from what has gone before and what will follow.

To make matters more complicated, Sixes are not only ambivalent toward others, they are ambivalent toward themselves. They like themselves, and then disparage themselves, feeling inferior to others. They have confidence and then feel hopeless and defeated, as if they could not do anything without help from someone else. They feel weak-kneed and cowardly, then suddenly fill with rage and strike out at others. A double set of dependent and aggressive impulses operates in them, continuously interacting in various complex combinations because Sixes react ambivalently not only to the external authority, but to the internal authority, their superego.

Are you saying DJA is a SIX? Are you saying the Satanist is a SIX?

[rat1]

The mark of the bEAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[xerx]

The mark of the bEAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

could actually be 616 and not 666.

[blackburry]

Are you saying DJA is a SIX? Are you saying the Satanist is a SIX?

DJA.


I feel like I should add that my quoting six attributes was not an attack. I genuinely understand what it feels like to *have* to believe in something..anything, to make sense of events that occur; however, I've found slight comfort in reading about human history... and science as they help me feel more grounded in life and the chaotic world in which we live. In the end we are only in control over so much and that's fucking scary. I force myself to accept it. and hey, sometimes prayer even to yourself helps calm the feeling of being utterly alone (which ultimately we all are). Reading history and autobiographies concerning how other made peace with their own mortality helps me. Scrambling to like-minded folks also helps.

I don't see anyone needing religion as being weak. I'm skeptical of religions and that's only because of things I've witnessed...and religion courses do a great deal to show how much major world religions borrow from each other. To each his own.

[Aquagraph]

ok.

I think luciferianism loses over the simple fact, that its way too fucking complicated.

To me, theodicy sounds like 2+2=5 but ask any Christian and they will go into depths about explaining how it actually makes sense when enough human justice concepts and metaphors are used.

[Whoobie77]

someone help me, my brain is exploding.

DJ,

Remember the rule of thumb for Ti. Ti is subjective logic. Both of you, being Ti valuers, will be able to make arguments which seem crystal clear. But remember these are, albeit logical, personal rationalizations.

If you read the Gospel of John and Paul's letters, you'll see a distinct rejection of trying to rationalize yourself into faith. Deep inside, you either know or you don't. Don't let a bunch of high falutin' rhetoric confuse you.

You're getting stuck in a Ti-Ni loop. As an extroverted sensor/gut enneagram type, you need to put away the logic and use your Se. Look at the objective sensory world. If your gut says, "This was designed by my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ", then go with it.

Hope this helps. Best of luck.

[woofwoofl]

Play with her box.

Put your finger inside her box

Oh baby

Anyways, I just a while ago mentally defined Satan as a vital life force completely within a person, and God as a life force that's created from the harmonious union of people. Guess that's why so many people find God in a church. And give him/her a shout-out during sex! They're both great to have, balance that shit out and see to it that you've got lots of both around.

Outside of that, though? I was born in the 1900s, so I didn't see any shit go down two millennia ago. Not my problem!

[rat1]

Religion is actually very logical given certain biases, it's just not literal.

[chriscorey]

To me, theodicy sounds like 2+2=5 but ask any Christian and they will go into depths about explaining how it actually makes sense when enough human justice concepts and metaphors are used.

Wow, really? Any Christian?

[Azure Flame]

It's brave of you to talk of your metaphysical musings given that it's bound to invite ridicule.

Consider that perhaps you're not supposed to align yourself with either side. Listen to 4:00-8:49 of this video and tell what you have thought of this.

I'm kinda lost.

The bible is MEANT to be analyzed the way I'm doing it?

It sounds to me like I'm being told that the bible encourages us to go out and explore all facets of life and be skeptical.

I also suspect that by reading the bible I'll actually know more than 99% of christians, and at the same time the bible says to read its entirety and follow "his word."

This is kinda blowing my mind right now.