Native speaker, help choose good name for Te (Extraverted Thinking)

[Dmytro Medvedev]

I'm trying to compile russian-english dictionary of socionics terms and would like to discuss best name for Te.
Aushra called it black-logic (black means extraverted)

Gulenko call it "business logic" (direct translation from russian) or "P" (from latin Profiteor) but in english business logic means business rules which is opposite of sense of P.
P means action, P person is always doing something, something profitable. Entrepreneur (ENTJ) is always experimenting trying to find something new and make profit of it. Administrator (ESTJ) is just workaholic, the best type to organize production of anything.

I have some variants to discuss. What do you think ?

pragmatic logic (two much sensing)
practical logic (two much sensing)
profitable logic (two much focus on profit, Admin is focused on productivity)
productive logic
action logic (i like this one, because it shows dynamics of the function)
work logic
commercial logic
lucrative logic (not good because P is rational, meaning working constantly, all the time)

[Olimpia]

Business is about profit and getting the "(bigger)bang for your buck" etc., which is about.

Having said that, the descriptions "business logic" and "productive logic" and "profitable logic" apply best to Te leads and +Te, aka LIE > LSE. Te Creative types are less "productive" in the go-getter-sense. Probably related to them "just" being Te Creative and Ip temperament. Especially ILI-Ni can be on the less productive side (up to a point). Also, their Te is tied to/'overwhelmed' (in terms of strength) by Ti, so for an xLI, the understanding of Ti forms the expression of Te; Te being a way they "use" and apply their Ti knowledge and understanding of things effectively. Especially in the case of ILI, the Te will be more tied to intellectual pursuits, which are often (a bit) less profit-focused.

One suggestion I would make which includes -Te more is the "Logic of worth/value/quality", but that can easily be misunderstood, so I wouldn't necessarily recommend that wording.
But, (especially -)Te looks at: Is this action worth the energy and effort? Is this product worth my buck? Is this product of high quality?

"Pragmatic logic" applies best to LSEs, but not so much the other types.

Another suggestion I would make, is the "Logic of use(fulness)".
How much and what kind of use can I extract out of this product/investment/situation/person? (applies best to Delta ST)
How much and what kind of energy/effort/investment will I have to make in order to achieve this particular outcome? (applies best to Gamma NT)
Does this product/person/object meet my requirements in terms of optimal use?

Those suggestions don't really cover the area of "objective facts" based on "evidence", however...

At the end of the day, there are many ways to describe each Information Element. They can be quite multifaceted.


P.S: I am not a native speaker, but close to it. ^^'

[Olimpia]

Maybe @Adam Strange could make some good suggestions.

[Sol]

> choose goog name for Te

da Pest logic, bro

[Dmytro Medvedev]

Olimpia, thanks a lot for your reply.
I have comment on Te: they do not analyze much, their rule is do-think-do while Ti usually think-do-think, sometimes just think without doing... :-)
I liked your idea to call it "Logic of use(fulness)"

What about "action logic", "logic of action" ? how does it sound ?

So, for now, we have these options (most preferable first)
* profitable logic
* logic of use(fulness)
* action logic

[The Reality Denialist]

You know how to make things roll so to speak.

How I see it:
If it is in the base or to less extent in ego you do it all the time. Best example is business.
If you do it backwards but well it is usually in the id. (Understanding how something works instead of working).

[Rebelondeck]

In the pure sense, I think the best name is "inquisitor" because Te-types seem to 'conscript' others into their rationalization processes - often those others don't want to be involved. The Te-process often comes across as an inquisition even when the subject is themselves; the primary purpose seems to be to determine the absolute truth - for good or bad purposes. This is contrasted with the Fe-process ("empath", not in an ESP sense) which often 'takes advantage' of group hug or group complaint sessions to discover the relative positions in which others are situated and in which oneself should be situated - also, for good or bad purposes. T-types 'quantify' rather than perform logic, and F-types 'qualify' instead of being ethical or feeling........

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

I’m not a categorical thinker, so my definition is not going to be very precise, but I think of what I do as “process”-type thinking. “How do I get from here to there and accomplish my goal quickly and most efficiently?”

If something doesn’t directly contribute toward achieving that goal, it’s value temporarily falls to nearly zero and can be ignored. When a new goal is selected, all object values are reset to the same number and are once again evaluated with respect to their usefulness in accomplishing the goal. This allows me to draw on all the tools I’ve ever used, but to not be distracted by irrelevance.

I think that, in LIE’s, the process is done with respect to optimizing time costs. In LSE’s, I think the process is done with respect to aesthetics. But I’m no expert on this.

So, I think of Te as “process thinking”, but I’m pretty sure that much better definitions exist.

However, there's one thing I'm sure of, and that is that Ti-users and Te-users will differ on the "best" definition of Te because their goals for that definition are different. One wants a universally applicable set of rules to apply to the object to see which category it fits into, and the other just needs something good enough to use in most cases right now.

[Hope]

Business logic is the best one imo. Then I'd use Profit or lucrative, those preserves the meaning. I see Te types always evaluating cost (money, energy, time invested) in relation to result (benefit, profit). Its an evaluation of resources and process required to obtain or produce something.

[Adam Strange]

^I want to add that Elon Musk's comment that he was somewhat surprised when everything worked on his recent rocket launch is an indicative result of this "process thinking". In his mind, that rocket was built from a lot of "good enough but not perfect" parts in order to get it done in a timely fashion. You build safety factors into every part, but everything is a guess and a few of those guesses are going to be wrong. You have to expect failure and be ready with alternate plans to fix things when they do fail. So, when everything works, it's a pleasant surprise.

I noticed that his central booster missed the landing pad. But now there's a Tesla in space, headed past Mars. You win some and lose some.

[Dmytro Medvedev]

"business logic" is a good term, but it already used (at least in IT) to describe business rules (link to wikipedia) and algorithms, which is more Ti (system, rules, algorithms) while Te it is action, production, business, work etc...

[Hope]

Its used in computer software, It doesnt affect the meaning outside that field. I mean, ppl in general doesnt think in "rules" when they hear business logic. That meaning is limited or exclusive to software field afaik.

[Dmytro Medvedev]

I'm from IT world so it is so for me. I agree with you that general ppl should understant it right.

So, following difinitions make sense for native english spekers ?

Business (Pragmatic) Logic (P) – extraverted logic; the function of the psyche, manifesting itself in mobile, perseverance and endurance behaviour.


Structural Logic (L) – introverted logic; the function of the psyche, manifests itself in calm, cold-blooded and pedantic behaviour.

[The Reality Denialist]

It is actually interesting to see that people think profit.

I'm like: interesting! Money means nothing in contrast to experiencing new idea as long as I can afford it (and I can stretch money). For example I went back to university to study math and physics on top of masters in science to go to field that I perceived to be more interesting regardless of money for example.


Is this big no no in world?

[Hope]

I'm not sure of the last sentences of both definitions, they seem quite categorical:

>manifests itself in calm, cold-blooded and pedantic behaviour

I've met pedantic Deltas STs (If I say truth). So I guess aristocratic logicals can be like that.

>manifesting itself in mobile, perseverance and endurance behaviour.

LIEs I've met have problems with endurance and perseverance sometimes (with Ni), then Ti valuers can be very perseverant and endure stuff pretty well (especially if mixed with Se). Si with Te its kinda calm and lazy (mobility reduced).

Then cold blooded is used in socionics as comunication style and it applies to Te valuers too.

I'd use more techical terms maybe, with less adjectives.

[Hope]

It is actually interesting to see that people think profit.

I'm like: interesting! Money means nothing in contrast to experiencing new idea as long as I can afford it (and I can stretch money). For example I went back to university to study math and physics on top of masters in science to go to field that I perceived to be more interesting regardless of money for example.


Is this big no no in world?

I don't think in terms of profit=money all the time, I think in terms of productivity, benefit and convenience in comparition to investment (time, energy, effort, comfort, money)...the result must be positive in terms of price/benefit. What is done must be useful for something (even if ita not a tangible benefit but spiritual, intelectual pleasure, etc) the goal is subjective I think. But waste is not allowed (negative results in terms of cost/benefit).

[Rebelondeck]

.........that Ti-users and Te-users will differ on the "best" definition of Te because their goals for that definition are different. One wants a universally applicable set of rules to apply to the object to see which category it fits into, and the other just needs something good enough to use in most cases right now.

The only difference between Ti and Te-types is how they go about quantifying something - i.e., process configuration and control. Their goals can be very much the same but how to accomplish them will often be disputed. Both eventually want things in concrete terms for decision making purposes; they'll shave corners to put square pegs in round holes if need be whereas F-types will likely say that filling the holes is unnecessary......
a.k.a. I/O

[Exodus]

I'm trying to compile russian-english dictionary of socionics terms and would like to discuss best name for Te.
Aushra called it black-logic (black means extraverted)

Gulenko call it "business logic" (direct translation from russian) or "P" (from latin Profiteor) but in english business logic means business rules which is opposite of sense of P.
P means action, P person is always doing something, something profitable. Entrepreneur (ENTJ) is always experimenting trying to find something new and make profit of it. Administrator (ESTJ) is just workaholic, the best type to organize production of anything.

I have some variants to discuss. What do you think ?

pragmatic logic (two much sensing)
practical logic (two much sensing)
profitable logic (two much focus on profit, Admin is focused on productivity)
productive logic
action logic (i like this one, because it shows dynamics of the function)
work logic
commercial logic
lucrative logic (not good because P is rational, meaning working constantly, all the time)

Pragmatic logic or practical logic is fine.

Actually the "action" one overlaps with Se in my view. The actual doing is Se, Te just evaluates the effectiveness of actions.

[at sirac son of sirac]

The only difference between Ti and Te-types is how they go about quantifying something - i.e., process configuration and control. Their goals can be very much the same but how to accomplish them will often be disputed. Both eventually want things in concrete terms for decision making purposes; they'll shave corners to put square pegs in round holes if need be whereas F-types will likely say that filling the holes is unnecessary......
a.k.a. I/O

I think Adam Strange is right, or close.

Ti is about dealing with information based on its structure, whereas Te is about dealing with information based on its function.

What can it do, or what can I do with it, or what can I tell you to do with it (eg LSE the 'Director'.

Te is the do-ing function; it's action.

Olimpia, thanks a lot for your reply.
I have comment on Te: they do not analyze much, their rule is do-think-do while Ti usually think-do-think, sometimes just think without doing... :-)I liked your idea to call it "Logic of use(fulness)"


What about "action logic", "logic of action" ? how does it sound ?


So, for now, we have these options (most preferable first)
* profitable logic
* logic of use(fulness)
* action logic

These are better, but not business logic IMO, because that implies it's about 'cutting deals', Donald Trump or take your pick.

[lavos]

The thing is that we need new names for each variant of the plus and minus of every information element. The -Te of LIE and the +Te of LSE are very different.

[Exodus]

Ti is about dealing with information based on its structure, whereas Te is about dealing with information based on its function.

I agree 100% with this.

What can it do, or what can I do with it, or what can I tell you to do with it (eg LSE the 'Director'.

Now, this is mixing in some Se IMO (especially the last part). Telling people to do stuff is Se.

[Dmytro Medvedev]

Actually the "action" one overlaps with Se in my view. The actual doing is Se, Te just evaluates the effectiveness of actions.

In Humanitarian socionics we correlate Se with power, dominating position, fight. Se is impulsive while Te is more constant. Te is production, making profit (LSE) and searching for new things to make profit (LIE). So Te should be something like "constant profitable action"

BTW: is it good idea to write humanitarian socionc's function symbols as: Phs = Te, Lhs = Ti, Fhs = Se, Shs=Si ?

[FDG]

It is actually interesting to see that people think profit.

I'm like: interesting! Money means nothing in contrast to experiencing new idea as long as I can afford it (and I can stretch money). For example I went back to university to study math and physics on top of masters in science to go to field that I perceived to be more interesting regardless of money for example.


Is this big no no in world?

No, I think Te types would find it just fine, just a personal choice.

It's the Se types who may criticize it as impractical, not oriented towards big objectives, etc. etc.

[Rebelondeck]

An information element is a grouping of observations of an information control system, and functions in tandem with another information element, either of which could be dominant. To determine what Te does by itself, the commonality among ESTj, ENTj, INTp, and ISTp would have to be determined but to do this, the commonality between Si and Ni would first have to be established in order to provide a common comparison base because Te doesn't 'function' by itself. I doubt that one can categorically assign a specific type of 'logic' to Te or what type of information Te deals with; it's more plausible to label the process that Te will likely follow in a limited control structure........
a.k.a. I/O

[Olimpia]

I find it problematic to group too close together with the term "action", because that can too easily overlap with specifically, and all Extroverted IEs in general who are all connected with 'making something happen' in some way: With , it is ideas and potentialities, with it is the emotional atmosphere, with it is physicality and pressure. One could say that the Extroverted IEs generally appear to be more outwardly 'active' and the Introverted ones outwardly 'inactive'. The stronger someone's introversion, the less 'active' they'll be, etc.

Perhaps the impression that Te is close with Se/"action" derives from the fact that Te lead types are either Se Demonstrative or Mobilizing, so their Te is often connected with Se power or aspirations. And on the same token, Se lead types also are in contact with Te; being either Te Demonstrative or Mobilizing. So it can apparently be difficult to keep the two IEs separate. (No wonder Se and Te are often mistaken for one another, especially in typing. Many LIEs mistype as SLE, many SLEs mistype as LIE, etc.)

Once you combine Te with Si or Ni lead however, the dynamics of how Te is being expressed and employed can change, and the individual can appear to be less outwardly action-oriented, simply because they are either Se Ignoring or DS.

[Bertrand]

I think a good way to think about it is to separate Te from "making things happen" in general since every function is just a way in which things happen. Te orders "actions" a certain way, namely logically, based on some goal or value (Fi) and informed by a preferred perception. But you can no less order actions in all the other possible recombinations and it is no less "doing stuff", although I will say the Te state of mind, while engaged (in control), has a characteristic physiological pattern which is an enduring form of mobilization, as opposed to a more "sprinting" form of mobilization seen with more Se Ti/Fi types

[Dmytro Medvedev]

Finaly, I decided to leave it as " Business (Pragmatic) logic" while, I personaly think, it is better call it "business activity" or "profitable activity"

Here is the link to whole article "Russian-English socionic's dictionary"

http://zanoza.socioland.ru/wiki/%D0%...BD%D0%BE%D0%B2

[lavos]

Not a good choice IMO because Te is not only about "business". It can be used for business, but it can also be used for many other things.

[Exodus]

In Humanitarian socionics we correlate Se with power, dominating position, fight. Se is impulsive while Te is more constant. Te is production, making profit (LSE) and searching for new things to make profit (LIE). So Te should be something like "constant profitable action"

Yeah, and fighting is taking action. Being impulsive means taking action.

[Kill4Me]

Pure Functionality