Don't Say This / Don't Say That

[Aramas]

Are there certain types that tend to be more "political" or "diplomatic" in how they deal with others? Have you ever known anyone who tried to tell you what you could and couldn't say? Is any of this stuff related to typology in any way? Are there types/quadras, or other groups that have a tendency to say or want to say "whatever the hell is on their minds" regardless of social/political consequences? Feel free to consider the subject from the perspective of the Enneagram if that helps.

In my own experience, I've known people of both aristocratic quadras who tend to be rather keen, perhaps even demanding of others, to say "the right thing." This included both logical and ethical types. But I'm still not sure if it's type related, so here I am asking you guys for your personal experiences and theories.

In my own experience, I tend to label people like that as manipulators, schemers, or just not honest enough. Maybe this kind of thing means more to other people who "care" about what other people say/think/do. I really couldn't give two shits myself.

I've known people in democratic quadras who said the "appropriate thing," but it seemed to me like they were trying to be sarcastic about it to intentionally let you know that they were not on board, whereas, with aristocratic quadras, it seems like they were more intent on making a truly seamless image that others couldn't see through.

[Adam Strange]

Personally, I have a bad tendency to say exactly what I'm thinking without much in the way of filters, particularly when I'm in what I consider to be a safe area.

Otherwise, when I'm negotiating for something I want, I can be fairly Machiavellian and state things in a way that can be interpreted in the way that the listener would like, but which I did not explicitly say.

I've also been told I'm the most political person the teller ever met. I think this was a response to my ability to navigate power structures and come out ahead.
An ILE also told me, "Adam, most of the time, I think you don't know what the hell is going on, but then you always manage to come out ahead." Of course, this was an ILE speaking.

[Exodus]

The way you are describing it primarily makes it sound like an Se/Si conflict (not that you are describing it objectively in any sense - an example could help there).

[Danali]

Fi-Te is all about what you should/shouldn't say. - Mainstream.
Fe-Ti is all about freedom of expression. - Anti-Mainstream.

That's why Fi ego types are usually offended by Fe-Ti people because they dissent from the appropriate way of doing things.

[Aramas]

The way you are describing it primarily makes it sound like an Se/Si conflict (not that you are describing it objectively in any sense - an example could help there).

I really have no idea here. The examples I am thinking of in my head are too partial and subtle for me to know how to communicate them exactly. There's only one I do remember at all, and I don't think that's the most significant one. The first question to ask is whether this trait I'm talking about is at all related to psychological type. I still don't know even that. But I wanted to make this thread to see what others think.

I wish I had a better memory sometimes! Then I could tell you exactly what I'm referring to. As far as the one moment I do remember, I recall a parental figure saying, "Don't say that," when I said someone had lied. I figured I was being too blunt, so I switched to euphemisms, but apparently, according to this perspective, saying anything that indicated someone had intentionally not told the truth was bad or wrong. Like I said, though, this example isn't exactly what I was talking about when I made this thread.

Can you tell me why you think it's an SeSi conflict?

[Aramas]

Personally, I have a bad tendency to say exactly what I'm thinking without much in the way of filters, particularly when I'm in what I consider to be a safe area.

Otherwise, when I'm negotiating for something I want, I can be fairly Machiavellian and state things in a way that can be interpreted in the way that the listener would like, but which I did not explicitly say.

I've also been told I'm the most political person the teller ever met. I think this was a response to my ability to navigate power structures and come out ahead.
An ILE also told me, "Adam, most of the time, I think you don't know what the hell is going on, but then you always manage to come out ahead." Of course, this was an ILE speaking.

I've noticed LIEs are often very blunt people, but they still somehow remain untouchable quite often.

[Aramas]

Fi-Te is all about what you should/shouldn't say. - Mainstream.
Fe-Ti is all about freedom of expression. - Anti-Mainstream.

That's why Fi ego types are usually offended by Fe-Ti people because they dissent from the appropriate way of doing things.

Can you imagine a situation in which an FiTe type would say the opposite is true?

[Desert Financial]

Any quadra or series of valued functions could potentially prompt that kind of response.

With Fe, a kind of focus on "appropriateness" exists, insofar as what you say affects the mood.

However, it seems like the clearest, most consistent examples of "Don't say that" come from Delta quadra.

+Fi and -Si.

[Desert Financial]

I've noticed LIEs are often very blunt people, but they still somehow remain untouchable quite often.

Pretty much. They can usually cling to the walls of any institution while enacting their vision in a way that conveniently skirts rules, regulations, procedures, etc. If they're lucky and smart, they'll make it past the SLEs and start codifying the rules in a way that suits them. Often, they'll settle for sucking up to whoever's above them, tho.

[Adam Strange]

Pretty much. They can usually cling to the walls of any institution while enacting their vision in a way that conveniently skirts rules, regulations, procedures, etc. If they're lucky and smart, they'll make it past the SLEs and start codifying the rules in a way that suits them. Often, they'll settle for sucking up to whoever's above them, tho.

This is actually pretty accurate.

[Desert Financial]

This is actually pretty accurate.

I've been watching you fuckers.

Btw, congrats on 4,000th post.

[Adam Strange]

I've been watching you fuckers.

Btw, congrats on 4,000th post.

Oh, my God. How have I come to this?

*EDIT*
I originally came to this forum to understand myself better, and posted my experiences so there would be more data available for future LIE’s, who might run across it and gain some additional insight into their own situations. But, I unexpectedly found a welcoming community of great people. I am so fortunate, and I’m very grateful for the friends I have made here.

[Desert Financial]

[Aramas]

Any quadra or series of valued functions could potentially prompt that kind of response.

With Fe, a kind of focus on "appropriateness" exists, insofar as what you say affects the mood.

However, it seems like the clearest, most consistent examples of "Don't say that" come from Delta quadra.

+Fi and -Si.

What is it about +Fi and -Si that makes you link them to this topic?

[Desert Financial]

What is it about +Fi and -Si that makes you link them to this topic?

+Fi = positive, warm relationships. Psychological factors play a vital role for them. Without recognition of ethical values such as individuality and the uniqueness of others, religion and spirituality, non-interference in others lives, concrete humanism, etc., the stability they strongly desire is hardly possible.

-Si = minimization of discomfort. They value good working conditions and are reluctant to change their routines. This element excludes harmful influences from external environment. This quadra cannot work in a rush. They highly value convenience, comfort at their workplace, and good coordination at work.

It seems like mixing these two things in particular could increase sensitivity about what's said. Minimization of discomfort as it relates to positive, warm relationships sets the stage for someone to tell you to be quiet, get off their lawn, etc. if you say something that makes them buttflustered.

[FDG]

I´ve seen a variety of people behaving this way, somehow though I believe those who are least likely to pay attention to appropriate behavior are ExTx types who kind of generally go around being slightly offensive to everyone without noticing. ENTx types worse offenders than ESTx types.

[Exodus]

Fi-Te is all about what you should/shouldn't say. - Mainstream.
Fe-Ti is all about freedom of expression. - Anti-Mainstream.

That's why Fi ego types are usually offended by Fe-Ti people because they dissent from the appropriate way of doing things.

You seemed to have completely missed my point about Te/Fi lol.

Anyways, I do think this is a common perception of others from the perspective of Beta types, though it also includes Se. What I don't agree with is that "mainstream" is Fi/Te simply because it's the opposite of rebellion - the social order itself is also typically "enforced" by Beta types the strongest (TiSe).

I really have no idea here. The examples I am thinking of in my head are too partial and subtle for me to know how to communicate them exactly. There's only one I do remember at all, and I don't think that's the most significant one. The first question to ask is whether this trait I'm talking about is at all related to psychological type. I still don't know even that. But I wanted to make this thread to see what others think.

I wish I had a better memory sometimes! Then I could tell you exactly what I'm referring to. As far as the one moment I do remember, I recall a parental figure saying, "Don't say that," when I said someone had lied. I figured I was being too blunt, so I switched to euphemisms, but apparently, according to this perspective, saying anything that indicated someone had intentionally not told the truth was bad or wrong. Like I said, though, this example isn't exactly what I was talking about when I made this thread.

Can you tell me why you think it's an SeSi conflict?

Well, your description is vague so my impression will also be vague. The idea of being blunt and "stirring things up" in such a way that might bother others, and then being critical of their reactions is a typical sentiment of Se valuers.

[Aramas]

You seemed to have completely missed my point about Te/Fi lol.

Anyways, I do think this is a common perception of others from the perspective of Beta types, though it also includes Se. What I don't agree with is that "mainstream" is Fi/Te simply because it's the opposite of rebellion - the social order itself is also typically "enforced" by Beta types the strongest (TiSe).



Well, your description is vague so my impression will also be vague. The idea of being blunt and "stirring things up" in such a way that might bother others, and then being critical of their reactions is a typical sentiment of Se valuers.

I see. I'm just blunt by nature. Not something I can help at times. *shrug* I don't try to do things intentionally.

[Danali]

Can you imagine a situation in which an FiTe type would say the opposite is true?

Tbh I don’t think so.

I’m assuming Fi-Te types have an idea they behave that way so they wouldn’t dispute it. However, I think those in the gamma quadra (rebellious mainstream) would look at the alpha quadra (soft anti-mainstream) as mainstream, then come to realise they’re not as mainstream as they thought.

The Deltas know they’re all about appropriateness and conformism because it minimises disruption in interpersonal relationships (Fi), in addition Si also makes for a group of people who hate ruckus (Fe+Se).

So all in all, Its very unlikely Fi-Te types will say Fe-Ti types are mainstream.

[Danali]

You seemed to have completely missed my point about Te/Fi lol.

Anyways, I do think this is a common perception of others from the perspective of Beta types, though it also includes Se. What I don't agree with is that "mainstream" is Fi/Te simply because it's the opposite of rebellion - the social order itself is also typically "enforced" by Beta types the strongest (TiSe).

Your point about Te-Fi ?? I must have missed that.

I would say the Fi-Te types are mainstream because that is just what they are.

All of the functions valued by, partially gamma and fully delta, make for mainstream people in thought and actions.

The other quadras don’t value those things as a result they make for people who aren’t mainstream.

[Rebelondeck]

Behaviours that are "political" or "diplomatic" are learned and not related to type. All types learn what they can and cannot get away with so will couch their words, and those that don't often use bulling tactics to get what they're after. I've seen expert diplomats, and toadies of all types. Ne-types seem marginally better at being able to realize up-front the eventual consequences of certain words or actions (which could be a key advantage), but this doesn't seem to make them better diplomats.

a.k.a. I/O

[Exodus]

Your point about Te-Fi ?? I must have missed that.

Yes, I explained it in PM and essentially reiterated it above.

[The Reality Denialist]

I do get kicks out of offending people. It has to be well crafted. Missile that hits the target and makes others laugh.

[golden]

Oh, my God. How have I come to this?

*EDIT*
I originally came to this forum to understand myself better, and posted my experiences so there would be more data available for future LIE’s, who might run across it and gain some additional insight into their own situations. But, I unexpectedly found a welcoming community of great people. I am so fortunate, and I’m very grateful for the friends I have made here.

You do realize we’re a bunch of assholes, right?

[golden]

@Aramas, I have had someone I didn’t like give me a compliment I didn’t want and tell me I had to say thank you to that compliment and every compliment in a specific way.

I have had someone tell me when I said there were ways my son and I are alike that I shouldn’t say that because it’s more important to focus on how he is unique (which to me is a given and which I’d just got done saying, explaining clearly that it’s uncomfortable at times for me to see how he’s like me).

Do you mean stuff like this?

[Adam Strange]

You do realize we’re a bunch of assholes, right?

I suspect that's why I fit in.

[Number 9 large]

I noticed Se vs Si valuing also maked a big difference
Both beta and gamma like darker humor and are rougher around the edges in general (with gamma being the most morbid quadra because they also value Te)

[Aramas]

I noticed Se vs Si valuing also maked a big difference
Both beta and gamma like darker humor and are rougher around the edges in general (with gamma being the most morbid quadra because they also value Te)

That reminds me of one of my German classes. There was a moment when my German teacher asked us if we remembered what "Unternehmer" meant. I translated literally and said, "Undertaker?!" But it's actually entrepreneur. The accidental mix of capitalism and death metaphor made me laugh like crazy. I realized I was in class and had to stop, but I was on the verge of bursting for 10 or 15 minutes and had to bite my lip really hard to keep from exploding in class. Another time, she asked us what the side effects of the first tuberculosis medicine were, and I said, "Tod (death)." Same thing happened again. I could not stop laughing. I thought I was going to have to leave the room.

Not sure what it is about death jokes that makes me laugh but there it is lol.

[Aramas]

@Aramas, I have had someone I didn’t like give me a compliment I didn’t want and tell me I had to say thank you to that compliment and every compliment in a specific way.

I have had someone tell me when I said there were ways my son and I are alike that I shouldn’t say that because it’s more important to focus on how he is unique (which to me is a given and which I’d just got done saying, explaining clearly that it’s uncomfortable at times for me to see how he’s like me).

Do you mean stuff like this?

Kind of yeah. It seems like there are always these people around who want to tell you what you can and can't say. They all have these made-up reasons why and if I was always trying to guess what everyone thought was appropriate, I'd never be able to open my mouth again for the rest of my life.

[Desert Financial]

I do get kicks out of offending people. It has to be well crafted. Missile that hits the target and makes others laugh.

Why hit one target when you can hit every target?

[ouronis]

No, but I think you notice this more from airheads that don't tune into conversations very well and don't feel subtle interpersonal boundaries. If you are loudly talking shit in public, I think most people would have a problem with that.

[Aramas]

Why hit one target when you can hit every target?

Too much detail. I like this one better:

2DWXfGR_d.jpg

[Sol]

Are there certain types that tend to be more "political" or "diplomatic" in how they deal with others?

F types. they more take into acount "personal" level. it's T types say what they think directly
among F: Fi are closer to concrete people and situations, while Fe more hold the general norms

> Have you ever known anyone who tried to tell you what you could and couldn't say?

mb related to Fe as objective social norm for anyone

> Are there types/quadras, or other groups that have a tendency to say or want to say "whatever the hell is on their minds" regardless of social/political consequences?

relates to valued region of a human. more about strong. he cares about this and want others do the same

[Desert Financial]

Opposing quadras are probably liable to try and shut each other up somehow.

[Desert Financial]

Too much detail.

Are you trying to censor me, sir?

[schwiftyrickty]

Everyone always says Delta NF are the PC police. I'm kinda inclined to agree even though I'm pretty sure that's what I am and I don't like that label at all lol. So much of my energy goes towards not being overly sensitive. I will very rarely say anything if I'm offended. I'll just say hmm and not contribute most of the time. I will only say something if it is happening over and over. At that point it usually turns into a tirade of sorts.

On the inside I am somewhat easily offended but if something is truly funny it gets a pass. Even if it's super fucked up or offensive to me personally, or it would be otherwise. Lazy jokes that rely on old stereotypes make me roll my eyes and lose respect. Truly over-the-top clever jokes that are extremely offensive are awesome though. Maybe because they're so exaggerated they couldn't possibly be taken seriously.

I know one EII who is super PC and sensitive and almost disgustingly liberal. They're (it should be obvious from my description they prefer gender neutral pronouns lol) actually a very good friend of mine and I have much respect for them overall. And they're really not pushy about that stuff, probably just silently fuming all the time.

[Muddy]

Everyone always says Delta NF are the PC police.

I see being a PC cop/SJW as something that is more attributable to enneagram 1 then anything regarding socionics type.

[Aramas]

Everyone always says Delta NF are the PC police. I'm kinda inclined to agree even though I'm pretty sure that's what I am and I don't like that label at all lol. So much of my energy goes towards not being overly sensitive. I will very rarely say anything if I'm offended. I'll just say hmm and not contribute most of the time. I will only say something if it is happening over and over. At that point it usually turns into a tirade of sorts.

On the inside I am somewhat easily offended but if something is truly funny it gets a pass. Even if it's super fucked up or offensive to me personally, or it would be otherwise. Lazy jokes that rely on old stereotypes make me roll my eyes and lose respect. Truly over-the-top clever jokes that are extremely offensive are awesome though. Maybe because they're so exaggerated they couldn't possibly be taken seriously.

I know one EII who is super PC and sensitive and almost disgustingly liberal. They're (it should be obvious from my description they prefer gender neutral pronouns lol) actually a very good friend of mine and I have much respect for them overall. And they're really not pushy about that stuff, probably just silently fuming all the time.

What's the difference between being offended and just not liking what someone said? Or what about just being pissed off?

[schwiftyrickty]

What's the difference between being offended and just not liking what someone said? Or what about just being pissed off?

I guess being offended is having your feelings hurt because someone is targeting you or someone close to you. It's an emotional reaction. Not liking what someone said doesn't have to be an emotional reaction. Maybe you just don't like it because it spreads ignorance and misinformation. I think we all know what being pissed off is. For me it's usually only if someone says/does something repeatedly, but that's just me. I don't get mad at peoples' mistakes or if they just talk too freely or don't understand something. It's the unwillingness to make a change in behavior that's hurting others despite evidence that it's doing so that pisses me off. I forgive mistakes easily and understand that some people were just raised a certain way or don't have the knowledge I do.

[The Reality Denialist]

I don't know but I get offended when people try to smooth their own words to a point where it becomes pure ass kissing. It is like I want to say to them: "You should just call me ?/&%/("# instead of trying to twist the actual information if you can not be neutral about it".