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Thread: Death Note (manga)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Alpha SFs in irl do this too though actually.

    I see your point though. EII is sometimes called Watson instead of Dosto, to LSE as Sherlock Holmes. I would accept this typing (of EII), or ESE for Watari. I think ESE makes a bit more sense though due to his demeanor. It’s pretty cheerful and warm. EIIs have Ti (coldblooded) role.
    Given that we have such little information about him and have not seen his demeanour in alternative circumstances, alpha SF would probably be the best guess. That begs the question as to why alpha SF and delta NF are so mistypable. I actually have a theory about this. Both of these groups seem to fit into Hufflepuff the best for Harry Potter houses. I know that this is not a psychometric theory or anything like that, but the point is that the underlying factors that motivate each of these groups lead to the same exterior result, and since it's difficult to weigh the relative roles of behaviour to cognition within the theory, the two groups get mistyped. I recently had this problem with one of my friends. I wasn't sure if he was ESE or IEE, but I settled on IEE because once I got to know him better, Fi became clear. And he read through the descriptions and agrees with me.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Given that we have such little information about him and have not seen his demeanour in alternative circumstances, alpha SF would probably be the best guess. That begs the question as to why alpha SF and delta NF are so mistypable. I actually have a theory about this. Both of these groups seem to fit into Hufflepuff the best for Harry Potter houses. I know that this is not a psychometric theory or anything like that, but the point is that the underlying factors that motivate each of these groups lead to the same exterior result, and since it's difficult to weigh the relative roles of behaviour to cognition within the theory, the two groups get mistyped. I recently had this problem with one of my friends. I wasn't sure if he was ESE or IEE, but I settled on IEE because once I got to know him better, Fi became clear. And he read through the descriptions and agrees with me.
    I have a theory that the - and + of the same IEs in different quadras according to Model B are actually dual energies.

    So in other words, alpha Si (+Si in Model B), and delta Ne (-Ne in Model B) have similar properties, like identical IEs almost. And these types have these in their ego functions.
    And alpha and delta ethics (-Fe +Fi) are the same too in Model B. And these types also have one of these in their ego functions.

    Of course, this can just also be explained with basic Socionics theory as them both being Si/Ne valuing ethical types.

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    I think Light is way more EIE than LIE. EIE makes more sense for him actually. It's hard to explain but there's this theme of emotionality to him that I think is not something I'd associate with NTs. As for L, I pretty much despised the character the moment I saw him. He's so disconnected from reality, it's hard to type him. He seems to be the archetype of LII on the surface but maybe I could see him as IEI instead.

    Both Light and L seem to me to be too focused on the ethical aspect. Light's ideals are obvious, but L is blinded by this as well. L cares too much about Kira or that's the impression I get anyway. I get the impression that L doesn't see Light as a "criminal" per se, more like an opponent he wants to defeat, which is more Se valuing, I think.

    Of all the group there, the only one who sees reality objectively is Near. He's able to reduce Light to just a serial killer, and is able to see the Death Note as a weapon of mass destruction. That's why, I think he's the only logical type there.

    The interactions between Light and L is like a cat and mouse kind of chase, which makes me wonder if they're both sort of like Beta NFs. As for the Fe, it could just be that he's autistic, he comes across as such. His social skills seem to be too good for someone who lives in complete isolation. He has a knack for understanding people... If he has to be a logical type, I would pick ILI over LII. LII is much more of a cute marshmallow kind of person. L comes across as being twisted, idealistic in the same way that Light is.

    Anyway that's my $0.02

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    @FarDraft I see Aizawa as P temperament compared to Soichiro who I see you also typed as LSE. I also thought SLI for Aizawa because it took him a long time to see the bigger picture of what was going on although he had some hunches and otherwise seemed reasonable and intelligent (1D Ne; Ni role; Ti demonstrative). Also he left the group for family purposes, which looked like a P temperament (defecting), Fi HA move to me.

    As for Mello not being logical, meh, he was apparently considered a gifted individual in the series. I get typed SEE/ESI a lot on this forum too lol, or at least I used to. It’s a common error!

    Re: Misa, SEEs also have 4D Fe. They are also Reinin positivists too. Demonstrative function is used when necessary. Stereotypes for quasi identicals are often similar. She is grungey and yandere, which is a gamma SF stereotype.

    Ryuk: If you don’t think he got enough screen time to type properly, why are you giving him an enneagram tritype?!

    And fwiw 793 sounds pretty Ne if you ask me, or just 7 period. I don’t see how you don’t see the Ne or the trolly ILE archetype in him.
    Aizawa left the group because he did not like L's practices. L said that there was no funding for the group and so Aizawa had to make a choice, but then Watari says that they do have funding, which angers Aizawa. It was less to do with Fi HA and more to do with consistently conflicting with L and having enough. Moreover, the defecting argument is problematic since Aizawa was in a different position than the others. Whereas Soichiro's children were old enough to take care of themselves, Aizawa's kid was much younger, so leaving her behind for a longer period of time would be troubling for her. This is a choice that I'm sure any responsible parent would have made, not just one who "defects".

    Mello being gifted has nothing to do with his being logical. You can be smart and ethical, and Fi ego makes way more sense than Fe HA for him.

    Misa's a tough case as well. We don't get to see her inner thought process as much as the others. Your case for SEE makes sense, but I think that Fe is valued over Fi given her desire to be loved. As I said in the OP, all she wants is for Light to love her. This is childlike and alpha related. Moreover, I can see tsundere being a gamma SF stereotype (not wanting to be vulnerable), but yandere is just psychotic. Her desire to be loved manifests as a repulsion of anyone who gets in the way of that motive - I can't see a demonstrative function being so involved in a person's psyche.

    Enneagram is honestly a much easier theory to apply, especially since the archetypes are so clearly defined. See how an individual faces fear, anger, and shame, and you have your winner. The only reason I narrowed down Ryuk's tritype is because he doesn't demonstrate evidence for the other possibilities. He doesn't have a self-righteous nature to him, nor does he express anger very readily. He does have the passive-observer characteristics of a 9, though. Similarly, 2 and 4 make no sense, so 3 is the only other possibility.

    Ryuk could definitely be a trolly ILE, but I've met SLIs who are also like this. Their boredom and lack of caring manifests as a person who just fucks with the system rather than being involved with it. Moreover, Ryuk's "trolliness" differs from L's (most likely Ne user) in that he doesn't test people for how they react but rather sits on the sideline feeding misinformation or deliberately angering Light. I can see Ne valuing, but it doesn't seem to be a core part of his personality.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    @FarDraft I think you are SLI. You seem more interested in fringe explanations than the most likely answer.

    Your reasoning for Mello fits with Fi polr and irl SLEs more than Fi creative. Those guys (Fi egos) are more bound to be secure and have a better handle on their emotions.

    I guess I could accept LSE for Aizawa, but I just think his personality contrasts with Soichiro’s a lot.

    Nothing to add for the other ones beyond what I said already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    @FarDraft I think you are SLI. You seem more interested in fringe explanations than the most likely answer.

    Your reasoning for Mello fits with Fi polr and irl SLEs more than Fi creative. Those guys (Fi egos) are more bound to be secure and have a better handle on their emotions.

    I guess I could accept LSE for Aizawa, but I just think his personality contrasts with Soichiro’s a lot.

    Nothing to add for the other ones beyond what I said already.
    I mean, I could very well be an SLI, but that's irrelevant, and I highly doubt it. I won't derail the thread, though.

    I'm not interested in fringe explanations - I'm interested in considering as much data as possible and not resorting to stereotypes to type people. Your argument that Mello is logical because he is gifted is perhaps the most basic stereotype there is. I reject that notion because it's not true. However, the argument you have just presented makes more sense - that Mello probably has weak feeling because he is unable to handle his emotions. The problem is that that same argument can be used in reverse - that Mello being weak in feelings would lead him to care less about what others think since he is detached from his feelings. For example, I, as a logical rather than ethical person, do not realize how I feel about things until after the exchange has occurred. It isn't my priority. Does this mean that I have high feeling because I can control my emotions or low feeling because I'm not connected to them? For my case, it's the latter because I'm not motivated by my feelings in the first place. But Mello is. His entire nature is to prove that he's better than Near to boost his ego. He's emotionally driven, and he lacks external support which is probably why he can't control them. His behaviour fits closer to an emotionally damaged Fi ego type than it does an emotionally resilient SLE.

    I understand that Aizawa contrasts with Soichiro a lot, but there are a number of alternative factors to consider. 1) Difference in enneagram type: Soichiro is likely a 1, whereas Aizawa is likely an 8. This would explain his hyper reactivity. 2) Age and maturity: Soichiro is much older and more experienced than Aizawa. It is likely that he has dealt with characters like L before whereas Aizawa is used to standard structure. 3) Position: Soichiro is the chief police officer so he must be more contained than Aizawa is. He can't let his emotions drive his decision making, and he must keep the big picture in mind. Aizawa has the leeway to be more selfish.

    Socionics-wise, both are most likely to be deltas. I could accept either SLI or LSE for Aizawa since you have provided some evidence. I could also see LSI so as to be a conflictor with Matsuda, but I don't have a thorough argument to support this claim.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    I think Mello fits an emotionally damaged or even just normal egotistically fragile SLE than an emotionally damaged or healthy SEE. His dynamic with Near fits the stereotypical semi-dual ILI/SLE rivalry and love-hate relationship too. Moreover I think that Mello’s tactics were more ST-like than SF-like. And I don’t see how his ego thing contradicts with Fe HA either, since it can be very socially image-conscious.

    OK though, at the rest of what you said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I think Mello fits an emotionally damaged or even just normal egotistically fragile SLE than an emotionally damaged or healthy SEE. His dynamic with Near fits the stereotypical semi-dual ILI/SLE rivalry and love-hate relationship too. Moreover I think that Mello’s tactics were more ST-like than SF-like. And I don’t see how his ego thing contradicts with Fe HA either, since it can be very socially image-conscious.

    OK though, at the rest of what you said.
    The point that I'm trying to make, though, is that Mello isn't socially or image conscious. Enneagram-wise, he is 4w3, not 3w4. He suffers from character envy more than he does social diminishment. The Fi ego types I've met don't really care for social recognition, and neither does Mello. His hidden agenda isn't to be loved or to be famous or anything like that. I don't know what it is, but I can be sure that he cares more about proving himself for his own sake than he does to impress others. Why would he want the latter? He's already gifted, and people know that, he's already the head of a mafia gang with an enormous amount of power, he already has better social skills than Near could ever hope for, and he's really cool. The only things he has to prove are for himself, and he did so at the end with his sacrifice. This seems Fi ego far more than Fe HA.

    I can't comment on the tactics, though, since I'm not sure how ST tactics differ from SF tactics.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 11-05-2018 at 06:23 PM. Reason: grammar
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    @FarDraft

    Fair enough.

    I see the story of Death Note as a philosophical battle between different logician archetypes and their different versions of morality too, which is also part of why I think Mello as SLE makes the most sense. I also do not think it would be outside of SLE character to irrationally want to be #1 and prove that they’re better and smarter than an ILI. However I can accept SEE as possible based on your analysis of his character; it’s pretty deep and thorough.

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    Light Yagami is a logical mastermind, only rivaled by L and Near. He was the top student at his school. I find it hard to believe that someone like him could have 1D Ti.

    Not every "madman" who wants to rule the world is (like ****** *cough*) EIE ...
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    Misa is clearly ESE.
    It's understandable to see Light as EIE...he has the charisma, and Se-valuing is evident. But his demeanor seems more LSI to me, and I don't see how he could be 1D Ti. So I say LSI for Light.
    L is clearly LII.
    I like ILE for Ryuk. Fi-PoLR, not interested in power but in amusement.

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    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Death Note is pretty boring and its characters are flat. Along with Harry Potter I'd never understand why ppl got so obsessed over them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    I'd never understand why ppl got so obsessed over them.
    Mostly from wanting to see how Light and L react to each other and try to play around one another. Not super my thing, but I definitely understand the appeal. I have a friend who is really into those sorts of stories where the protagonist is some arrogant egomaniac genius gradually driven to greater extremes and losing his humanity. Shit like this and Code Geass. And Breaking Bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    Death Note is pretty boring and its characters are flat. Along with Harry Potter I'd never understand why ppl got so obsessed over them.
    Seems to me like the appeal comes mostly from gammas and betas, as well as some alphas but that's usually because alphas are into anime. Se valuing types seem to enjoy the thrill of the chase and the power fantasy that entails. Same with code geass and breaking bad, though I haven't seen the latter.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    Light Yagami is a logical mastermind, only rivaled by L and Near. He was the top student at his school. I find it hard to believe that someone like him could have 1D Ti.

    Not every "madman" who wants to rule the world is (like ****** *cough*) EIE ...
    I wasn't trying to say that all madmen or EIE or that all EIE are madmen but that there is a case to be made that Light could possibly be an EIE based on the evidence provided. I'm inclined to disagree with this possibility now since he is clearly ideologically motivated, which is usually Ji. However, just because someone isn't a logical type doesn't mean that they can't use logic to fulfill their plans. But Light clearly uses logic first and then manipulates if required later.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    @FarDraft

    Fair enough.

    I see the story of Death Note as a philosophical battle between different logician archetypes and their different versions of morality too, which is also part of why I think Mello as SLE makes the most sense. I also do not think it would be outside of SLE character to irrationally want to be #1 and prove that they’re better and smarter than an ILI. However I can accept SEE as possible based on your analysis of his character; it’s pretty deep and thorough.
    That's an interesting interpretation of the story. I'm open to Mello being SLE if others want to argue for the position, but I'll stick with SEE for now.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    I liked the first half of Death Note but not the second. Partially it was to see Light and L react around each other, but a lot of liking it had to do with the concept. So while seeing how the characters dealt with the situation, I could imagine other things that could be done with it, then was pleasantly surprised when the characters had a better idea than I did.
    If it's a show with supposedly-smart characters and I keep having better ideas than them, that's lame.

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    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Teapot View Post
    Haha yes. Especially when he said that he hates losing!


    Maybe you remember my attempt at an ILE-ILI conflict where I tried to to explain the conflict in terms of cognition. However I failed at that so I won't even try to have an opinion on DA cognition this time



    I wrote a blog entry about the possibility of Light being LIE [1] but I don't expect anyone to read it. Not even I want to read it - it's too long. (Same goes for LSIs [2] and LIEs [3] in fiction.)

    My main points where:
    1. Light's program function is typical for LSIs. He is precise in his tests and executing [4]. If you want to take Gulenko's cognition style into account; his reasoning is deterministic ("everything went according to plan) and his biggest weakness is unforeseen events (Ne-Polr)
    2. His goal of establishing social order ("I'll be the god of the new world") is classic Beta rational quadra (according to Start.)
    3. He's a detective - detectives are Ti D: (I declare it lol)

    IMO LIEs [5] don't give a shit about establishing rational social structures. Actually not even their cognitive style (chaos! rapid thinking when the right time arrives) would permit that
    There are of course cases where LIEs are involved in social causes - for example Magneto who fights for his mutant "brothers and sisters" but he never attempts to pass judgment according to rational principles (rules). His way of thinking is more like "There are mutants- my people- and everyone else" - similar to ESIs who also make a clear cut between "my people" and "my people". In short LIEs are motivated my Fi. Light on the other hand uses Ti (fairness, rules, order, rational judgment, laws etc. Betas tend to be more egalitarian)

    There are LIEs who make plans that drive the plot (Ocean's Eleven, Miss Sloane) but they are reckless, almost fantastical and not solid. LIE's (and EIE's) plans always have room to breathe (4D Ne). They are flexible - unlike Light's plans.

    [1] http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...people-are-LIE
    [2] http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...I-Byronic-Hero
    [3] http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...IEs-in-Fiction
    [4] compare to other fictional LSIs like Dexter(2006), Michael Scofield(Prison Break)
    [5] Indiana Jones, Magneto (X-Men: First Class), Danny Ocean (Ocean's Eleven)

    just my opinion though - I watched Death Note so often that I'm probably a bit too passionate about it
    I read through your three blog posts, and you have provided a good case – I’m relatively convinced. I do have some qualms, though.

    1) If Light is LSI, then he would be weak in Fe, which is not demonstrated in the show, as he seduced Takada and manipulates Misora who is a skilled detective. He is also shown to be an emotionally expressive person when he loses his memories. How are these facts resolved in your model?

    2) You say that the "most telling evidence for Light being LSI, is the way he tests and uses the Death Note" and then quote Gulenko: "LSI studies any matter that occupies him in great depth. He stubbornly and persistently collects information to attain a thorough understanding of the subject." But this could also be Te ego or type 5 or 6 enneagram in his tritype. Moreover, trial and error and experimentation is commonly associated with LIEs. What specifically leads you to think that this fact is consistent with LSI?

    3) With respect to the byronic/anti hero archetype, how can it be deemed that one particular archetype is associated with one particular sociotype? Should this isomorphism exist, then clear individual differences would be foregone so as to preserve the essential structure of the archetype. It’s the same problem that occurs in MBTI where apparently every criminal mastermind is an INTJ, despite tertiary Fi not being the sole reason why people would do horrible things for “the greater good”. Similarly, Ni HA’s striving for some ideal can’t be overused or seen as the core motivation for people’s acts. Light (and Lelouch at the end of the show) seems far too aware of his own striving for the ideal, as he consciously states that he wants to be the god of the new world. This idea is partially why I doubt my own analysis of Light in the OP.

    4) In your case against ILI, you write that Light wants to “wants to take care of matters now” and you support that with the fact that he doesn’t make the deal with the Shinigami. However, isn’t this a prime example of how Light cares about the long game more than anything? He doesn’t make the deal so that he has the capacity to exercise his vision for as long as he is alive, which is longer than he would be had he had made the deal.

    5) You also say that “That is not a set of clear visions (but Ni-Ha)”, but if Light’s goals were not a set of clear visions, then what is a set of clear visions? In many ways you can frame Light’s goals in the same way you can the goals of others. Light wants to use the death note to rid the world of criminals, providing peace for all honest citizens while simultaneously building power over people in society. Elon Musk wants to build companies to solve the world’s major problems, providing longevity for the people of the world, while simultaneously constructing a backup plan (space) for the future of humanity. In your eyes, what is “a set of clear visions”?

    6) Contingency planning seems to contradict the idea of Ne PoLR. Ne ignoring fits better for Light’s case since he clearly sees the possibilities and plans against them in private but prefers to narrow down his possibilities when dealing with other, as we saw in L’s deductive reasoning test.

    I think that most of what else you say makes sense. At this point, I think IEI is a strong contender, but I would like to hear your response.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    What about SLE-Ti for Light?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
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    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    What about SLE-Ti for Light?
    Rationale?
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Light - LIE
    L - ILI
    Ryuk - ILE
    Misa - SEE
    Soichiro - LSE
    Near - LII
    Mello - SEE
    Mikami -LSI
    Aizawa - LSE
    Matsuda - IEE
    Rem - EII

    Tbh, L and Near could be switched or maybe they're the same type.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Light - LIE
    L - ILI
    Ryuk - ILE
    Misa - SEE
    Soichiro - LSE
    Near - LII
    Mello - SEE
    Mikami -LSI
    Aizawa - LSE
    Matsuda - IEE
    Rem - EII

    Tbh, L and Near could be switched or maybe they're the same type.

    L, I think for sure to be LII since he values Ti too much. Everything has to make sense to him, otherwise he won't act. It's part of his downfall. Near, on the other hand, makes guesses from limited information and seeks new information based on his guesses. Seems more Te valuing. His reasoning process differs from L in that it's more non-linear and inconsistent yet it still works in the end. He also has the bluntness I associate with Te creative and Fe PoLR. L messes with people, but it's done with the Ne charm most noticeable with ILEs but still noticeable with the Ne subtype of LII, which I believe L is.

    The only way I could see them being the same type is if Near is LII-Ti and L is LII-Ne. But Near doesn't act like any of the LIIs I've met. There's a certain nerdy energy with LIIs that you can't see with ILIs until you get to know them. I see that in L but not Near.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Light - LIE
    L - ILI
    Ryuk - ILE
    Misa - SEE
    Soichiro - LSE
    Near - LII
    Mello - SEE
    Mikami -LSI
    Aizawa - LSE
    Matsuda - IEE
    Rem - EII

    Tbh, L and Near could be switched or maybe they're the same type.
    Nice list.

    Mine would be, currently...

    Light: ILI-Te or LIE-Ni
    L: LII
    Ryuk: IxE
    Misa: SEE-Fi
    Soichiro: LSE-Si
    Near: ILI
    Mello: xEE-Fi
    Matsuda: SEI-Fe
    Rem: ExI-Fi
    Watari: SLI
    Naomi Misora: ESI
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    I see everyone typing Matsuda IEE; if that’s the case, then I believe it makes the case that L is an LII stronger. It’s been a while since I watched the anime, but I think there were signs that a Supervision relationship was in effect between him and Matsuda - it’s pretty clear that L doesn’t think much of Matsuda as an investigator, as he only ever assigns him menial tasks (I believe there was a scene where L straight up asks him to bring him coffee, while everyone else is hard at work on the case). In fact, Matsuda’s improvised infiltration inside Yotsuba stems from his willingness to make himself more useful, which, to me, seems rather like an initiative a Supervisee would undertake in an attempt to “impress” their Supervisor.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Seems to me like the appeal comes mostly from gammas and betas, as well as some alphas but that's usually because alphas are into anime. Se valuing types seem to enjoy the thrill of the chase and the power fantasy that entails. Same with code geass and breaking bad, though I haven't seen the latter.
    For me personally, it wasn’t about the “thrill of the chase” as much as it was about seeing two extremely intelligent characters come up with increasingly intricate strategies, seemingly always “reading” the situation perfectly. The viewer is constantly given direct access to their thought processes, as well - it’s like watching a game of chess where you can read both of the players’ minds. That’s what fascinates me about Death Note.

    The show is structured in such a way that it makes it appealing especially to NTs, IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Overthinker View Post

    For me personally, it wasn’t about the “thrill of the chase” as much as it was about seeing two extremely intelligent characters come up with increasingly intricate strategies, seemingly always “reading” the situation perfectly. The viewer is constantly given direct access to their thought processes, as well - it’s like watching a game of chess where you can read both of the players’ minds. That’s what fascinates me about Death Note.

    The show is structured in such a way that it makes it appealing especially to NTs, IMO.
    I agree.

    This reason is actually why I found death note more compelling than some other "strategy" shows like code geass. I loved code geass, but the problem was that we didn't get to hear their thought processes as often as in death note. We only got to see the result of their plans. There was also too much intermittent dialogue that didn't matter, in my opinion; like when Kallen would yell something heroic while navigating the knightmare. It annoyed me since it was completely useless.

    There's another show called One Outs, where the lead character is highly intelligent as well, often maneuvering around the tactics of the opposing team using his own intellect. However, he rarely speaks or shares his thought process, and since the subject matter isn't thrilling (it's baseball), I lost interest in the show. It was also very repetitive.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by Overthinker View Post
    I see everyone typing Matsuda IEE
    I have noticed this trend of many people typing SEI-Fe as IEE. Like Jimmy Fallon, who is obviously Alpha imo. Even ESE would be a better fit.
    But, I suppose it is this "naivety" of Fe creative (plus So/Sx) that makes them appear more child-like and erratic and extroverted like an IEE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    I have noticed this trend of many people typing SEI-Fe as IEE. Like Jimmy Fallon, who is obviously Alpha imo. Even ESE would be a better fit.
    But, I suppose it is this "naivety" of Fe creative (plus So/Sx) that makes them appear more child-like and erratic and extroverted like an IEE.
    Now that I think about it, SEI (or ESE) fits better than IEE for Matsuda. The entire show is like his growth to maturity from the delta task force and the dark events that follow Kira's growth to power. Moreover, the stereotypical alpha incompetence fits him perfectly. He also gets along well with Misa (who I type as ESE), which would be harder to believe if he were Fi valuing. He also doesn't give me the impression of an Fi valuer like the rest of the task force. He always tries to see things from other perspectives before judging things (Ne valuing). If he were logical, this would make sense as logical types tend not be comfortable with making ethical judgements - but he is clearly not logical.

    I also see with delta NFs that there is an underlying maturity to their immature actions and behaviours. One of my close friends is IEE, and the first thing I noticed was that beneath his bubbly attitude was a fortress of Fi that wouldn't be shown to the world unless one knew him well, as if he'd been through some things that he overshadows with his enthusiasm. Alpha SFs tend to be the people who see things clearly because they don't understand the full nature of the situation - they're too naïve to have resolved the system they see, but they know what to do regardless. Delta NFs are the opposite, they perfectly understand the system because of their maturity, but they're within the system, so they find it difficult to change it - as if they're a byproduct of the system itself.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    L, I think for sure to be LII since he values Ti too much. Everything has to make sense to him, otherwise he won't act. It's part of his downfall. Near, on the other hand, makes guesses from limited information and seeks new information based on his guesses. Seems more Te valuing. His reasoning process differs from L in that it's more non-linear and inconsistent yet it still works in the end. He also has the bluntness I associate with Te creative and Fe PoLR. L messes with people, but it's done with the Ne charm most noticeable with ILEs but still noticeable with the Ne subtype of LII, which I believe L is.

    The only way I could see them being the same type is if Near is LII-Ti and L is LII-Ne. But Near doesn't act like any of the LIIs I've met. There's a certain nerdy energy with LIIs that you can't see with ILIs until you get to know them. I see that in L but not Near.
    L is too much of a sceptic to be LII. ILI seems more reasonable. I never liked his character. I was actually rooting for Light until Near showed up.

    Near is probably LII. I tried to find something relevant to your points. ILI is rarely described in the terms you chose.

    Quote Originally Posted by LII description by Gulenko
    Ideas come to him intuitively – by guessing. Logic for him is only a way of framing information that he obtains intuitively. He is able to disentangle a confusing, ambiguous problem. Intuitively searches for hidden relationships. Lack of evidence replaces with imagination. Penetrates deeper and deeper into the object of study.
    Quote Originally Posted by ILI description by Gulenko
    Resents that knowledge and intellectual skill rarely lead to the desired results. He knows a lot, but to come up with something himself is difficult for him. Skeptical about the prospects of new initiations and adventurous ideas. Envisions and presents things as more complicated than they really are.

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    Let's determine L



    He is more like demonstrating rules than going through them. He also has excessive futuristic strategic bent and focuses manipulating logic of actions where people take part.

    L seems to be ILI.
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    He’s too weird to not be alpha NT and too expressive for Fe polr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Can LIIs not be skeptics? Or are their efforts just not put towards that type of thinking? They are negativists, so it's completely possible that they have a critical bent. ILI being "the critic" doesn't necessary mean that critic <=> ILI strictly speaking.

    I don't understand Gulenko's reasoning there. Why would a rational type with Ti base guess to get their answer? Logic being a method of framing the information he obtains intuitively sounds like Ti creative rather than Ti base since the creative function is meant to be the method used to implement the base function's goals. Moreover, coming up with ideas isn't just Ne, it's intuition as a whole. When Gulenko says that ILIs have trouble coming up with ideas, it just seems wrong. I know that Ni uses experience, but it applies experience in new and creative ways where others may not have seen - it's a generalized pattern recognition function that is able to come up with new ways of doing things for this circumstance because it sees how a method used in an alternative circumstance could be molded to fit this one. Perhaps it cannot come up with as many novel ideas as an LII can (Ne ignoring), but ILIs are still intuitive, so ideas shouldn't be so difficult.

    The reason I framed my language the way I did was because that was (and still is) my interpretation of the NiTe thinking process. Ni guesses how to do things based on the information they have seen before (which is why Ni bases can do well without too much evidence, like Near does) and Te sees if that guess fits with the evidence. TiNe I envision more to be along the lines of Ti systematically analyzing the information present with Ne providing possible interpretations for where the information breaks down, theorizing alternative possibilities. It's a strictly logical process with intuition mixed in, and it's foremost concerned with precision like L is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Balzac, Female portrait, INTp by Beskova
    A skeptical attitude towards everything is characteristic to her. No enthusiasm, no ecstatic flight of thought, no boisterous emotions. She is the observer, the skeptic, and her forecasts frequently possess very pronounced negative character, although she, herself, will call this being sensible.
    Quote Originally Posted by INTp description by Filatova
    As a rule, his prognoses are colored by skepticism – he prefers to voice warnings to admonish those around him from taking unnecessary steps and acting rashly. He himself is cautious – will repeatedly and scrupulously check everything before doing anything. He calls on others to do the same, making critical remarks of those whose statements and actions are made too hastily and lightly and have not been carefully thought through.
    If you want to play the devil's advocate that is fine, but these are your words not mine.

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    I'm just saying L is more likely ILI than LII considering your criticism of him. Unless I missed something. I also see no reason to take your interpretation of the functions and their interactions. If it isn't obvious, I disagree with them, so does the theory. What you are asking for is an explanation, not evidence. Unless you disagree with the theory.

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    @sbbs Your logic is so flawed. Perhaps better to determine whether L is more Ni or Ne valuing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I'm willing to put aside my interpretation of the theory if a reasonable explanation for Gulenko's thoughts (and perhaps others) can be provided. I will probably read more about them in the near future to see if I disagree with them or not.
    Cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Also, what exactly from my analysis/criticism leads you to believe that L is ILI? You used the fact that L is too much of a skeptic and the fact that you didn't like his character to justify your conclusion earlier, but I never talked about either of those things in depth. I said that L prefers precise logical structure (in comparison to Near who is more nonlinear and inconsistent) and that this implies Ti valuing. Moreover, I said that he considers all the alternative possibilities (unlike Light and Near who are more immediately decisive).
    You said: "Everything has to make sense to him, otherwise he won't act." That sounds like Ni lead not Ti lead, no matter how you frame it.

    I don't see anything remotely resembling a Ti lead from L. I think I know where our interpretations differ. I tend to believe that if you are talking about logical structures you can't simply bring another function other than Ti to explain a person's attitude towards it. I also don't think a Ti lead has less flexibility with Ti than Ti demonstrative. If we agree that you need Ti to analyze information in a general sense, you can't say "this person is Te valuing thus his Ti is more versatile."

    You are just shitting on Model A otherwise.

    I could accept that Near is LII, but it seems to make sense that an Ni valuing type ultimately took down Light, who is also Ni valuing.
    It's convenient for you, but it doesn't make sense.

    Temperament-wise, Near seems Ij whereas L seems Ip, but subtype can influence that quite a bit. Near also seems more gamma than alpha to me, in comparison to L's clearly alpha values. For example, he immediately judges L's competence when he finds out that L is dead, saying that "if you can't solve the puzzle, then you're just a loser". Most people hate Near for this very reason, and it seems like a Te-valuing (Te creative, in particular due to the harsh use of language) statement.
    These statements require proof. There is nothing clear or obvious about them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I read through your three blog posts, and you have provided a good case – I’m relatively convinced. I do have some qualms, though.
    Thanks a lot for your time and for reading through all of that!

    1) If Light is LSI, then he would be weak in Fe, which is not demonstrated in the show, as he seduced Takada and manipulates Misora who is a skilled detective. He is also shown to be an emotionally expressive person when he loses his memories. How are these facts resolved in your model?
    In the case of Misora he had two assumptions: (1) Misora had a positive predisposition to Light because he reminded her of L and (2) She doesn't have anything left than working as a detective (3)she wants to work with L. From his experiments with the Death Note we know that Light knows how to carefully study a subject and use it's qualities for his advantage. I think being able to manipulate Misora (and others) is more a sign of his intellect and not for a strong ethical function.

    2) You say that the "most telling evidence for Light being LSI, is the way he tests and uses the Death Note" and then quote Gulenko: "LSI studies any matter that occupies him in great depth. He stubbornly and persistently collects information to attain a thorough understanding of the subject." But this could also be Te ego or type 5 or 6 enneagram in his tritype. Moreover, trial and error and experimentation is commonly associated with LIEs. What specifically leads you to think that this fact is consistent with LSI?
    Because Te-egos don't act the way Light does. Look at Abbie's posts or ask other LXE's. They don't play cat and mouse and mind games to "defeat an enemy".

    3) With respect to the byronic/anti hero archetype, how can it be deemed that one particular archetype is associated with one particular sociotype? Should this isomorphism exist, then clear individual differences would be foregone so as to preserve the essential structure of the archetype. It’s the same problem that occurs in MBTI where apparently every criminal mastermind is an INTJ, despite tertiary Fi not being the sole reason why people would do horrible things for “the greater good”. Similarly, Ni HA’s striving for some ideal can’t be overused or seen as the core motivation for people’s acts. Light (and Lelouch at the end of the show) seems far too aware of his own striving for the ideal, as he consciously states that he wants to be the god of the new world. This idea is partially why I doubt my own analysis of Light in the OP.
    Byronic Hero is a trope (more like a fancy name) that happens to fit many fictional LSI (that I#v seen so far) - other tropes are possible of course
    Tropes: Byronic Hero, Experienced Protagonist, Mary Sue, Lone Wolf, Anti-Hero, Extremist, Batman Gambit, Tragic Hero
    4) In your case against ILI, you write that Light wants to “wants to take care of matters now” and you support that with the fact that he doesn’t make the deal with the Shinigami. However, isn’t this a prime example of how Light cares about the long game more than anything? He doesn’t make the deal so that he has the capacity to exercise his vision for as long as he is alive, which is longer than he would be had he had made the deal.
    to which I say
    Light wants to take care of matters now. He wants to get rid of L as soon as possible, so he can pay his full attention to re-shaping the world then. (*)He wants to live as long as possible and therefore refuses the deal with the Shinigami eyes.
    Oddly phrased. I don't remember what I was thinking when writing that. I should have made a new paragraph at (*)
    I still don't see Ni-Dom in him.

    5) You also say that “That is not a set of clear visions (but Ni-Ha)”, but if Light’s goals were not a set of clear visions, then what is a set of clear visions? In many ways you can frame Light’s goals in the same way you can the goals of others. Light wants to use the death note to rid the world of criminals, providing peace for all honest citizens while simultaneously building power over people in society. Elon Musk wants to build companies to solve the world’s major problems, providing longevity for the people of the world, while simultaneously constructing a backup plan (space) for the future of humanity. In your eyes, what is “a set of clear visions”?
    "Cleat visions" is a description I had in mind when I still though that ILIs have magic Ni-mumbo-jumbo-vision.
    I disagree with the Elon Musk part. He is some dude who gets too much press - not techno-Jesus or a prime example for Ni-plans. He's pretty scattered. And often like a child. Intelligent - but overrated

    6) Contingency planning seems to contradict the idea of Ne PoLR. Ne ignoring fits better for Light’s case since he clearly sees the possibilities and plans against them in private but prefers to narrow down his possibilities when dealing with other, as we saw in L’s deductive reasoning test.
    Disagree with bolded part

    I think that most of what else you say makes sense. At this point, I think IEI is a strong contender, but I would like to hear your response.
    Light is not Te-Polr

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I don't think that there is such thing as "proof" within this system. It's not like there is an absolute interpretation that we must all follow; in fact, the system is too loose for that to exist. The definitions are not precise or universally agreed upon and so the analysis can be multifaceted and taken in N possible directions. Quoting someone is not proof but rather an argument by authority. It's sometimes necessary since those with experience tend to be knowledgeable but never sufficient since their interpretation is a product of their experience and worldview and mine or yours may differ. That being said, most of my criticism and analysis comes from intuitively interpreting the descriptions provided and comparing them against reality as objectively as I can. Thus, in some cases I can point to quotes and in others I can't. With regards to the subtype stuff I can't.
    You are absolutely correct that we don't have an absolute interpretation, but I think you must also be aware when you have started creating your own narrative, which I honestly don't mind but we are no longer talking about the same thing which makes this discussion useless to me.

    You used sociotype.com to support your views, and that website is the product of RSV3 (another user who used to post here). I don't generally take a random person interpretation into account when it doesn't match what the leading socionics researchers are saying, or my own interpretation for that matter. I would need a better argument than that. I do have my own understanding of socionics research which I constantly expand in private, but for other's sake, I try to stay within the accepted definitions or close to it when I present my case. Unless I'm pioneering and my intentions are clear about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tru View Post
    @sbbs Your logic is so flawed. Perhaps better to determine whether L is more Ni or Ne valuing.
    I didn’t see this for a while because you didn’t tag my name properly.

    - What is flawed about my logic?
    - His weirdness, or out-thereness, is what I implied was Ne-valuing. Sorry I had to spell it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    You are absolutely correct that we don't have an absolute interpretation, but I think you must also be aware when you have started creating your own narrative, which I honestly don't mind but we are no longer talking about the same thing which makes this discussion useless to me.

    You used sociotype.com to support your views, and that website is the product of RSV3 (another user who used to post here). I don't generally take a random person interpretation into account when it doesn't match what the leading socionics researchers are saying, or my own interpretation for that matter. I would need a better argument than that. I do have my own understanding of socionics research which I constantly expand in private, but for other's sake, I try to stay within the accepted definitions or close to it when I present my case. Unless I'm pioneering and my intentions are clear about that.
    How does stuff from sociotype.com differ from Socionics canon? I’ve heard this comment on that site before but never saw an explanation as to why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    How does stuff from sociotype.com differ from Socionics canon? I’ve heard this comment on that site before but never saw an explanation as to why.
    I don't remember exactly as it has been a while since I've looked at their stuff. They just didn't seem consistent with Model A. Most of the descriptions are poorly worded. Same reason why I stayed away from wikisocion.

    I mean you can't help but to stumble upon them when you start reading about socionics but I can't say that I take anything from them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    I don't remember exactly as it's been a while since I've looked at their stuff. They just didn't seem consistent with Model A. Most of the descriptions are poorly worded. Same reason why I stayed away from wikisocion.

    I mean you can't help but to stumble upon them when you start reading about socionics but I can't say that I take anything from them.
    I mean if you can’t come up with any examples off the top of your head....

    It’s one of the bigger sites out there. A lot of people on this website too use it as a source of information. It looks potentially as legit if not more legit than this website in some ways because this is conjoined with a casual discussion forum. I’m just saying, you can’t really expect it to not be taken seriously as a source by the majority of people or for the majority of people to know that it may be questionable at all, outside of the older members.

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