Drug Legalization & Regulation - no ad hominems please

[Aquagraph]

I believe that all drugs should be gradually legalized into regulated markets. Why?

The War on Drugs causes more harms than it prevents. There is no major study showing that legalization decreases use nor harms of use. It's quite clear that it's very expensive "war" economically and socially.
Instead of having to go through all my arguments, I'll just list them briefly and wait for you to attack my views (please do).
Legalization and regulation would:
-Create taxation and employment as drugs are bought at legal dispensaries
-Decrease underage use as the dispenseries would have to ask ID
-Dramatically decrease black market and criminality involved
-Dramatically decrease the social exclusion and sigmatization as users are not afraid to seek help if they have a problem with their use
-Leave the police with more meaningful tasks than to invade the privacy of non-violent citizens
-Putting the education off the counter-progressive fear tactics and to the form of "If you use, do it responsibly"
-Dramatically decrease harms of use as users have more know-how
-Potentially decrease use as the drug use is being understood as a health issue, not a criminal one
-Quality control

I'm not saying that drugs are not that bad, I'm saying that the War on Drugs ain't making anything easier. We should be looking at the policy that is the most effective in harm reduction. And it is utopistic to think drugs will go away if you just put enough money in it.

I will expand my arguments, but for now: attack me.

[Lotus]

i agree.

[Gilly]

I agree that "the war on drugs" is bullshit; however having been in circles dealing with hard drugs, I personally think it best if the more physically and psychologically dangerous drugs, such as crystal meth, pcp, DMT, crack, etc. remain illegal. Given the addictive power and dangerous nature of some drugs out there it just doesn't make sense to have them on the shelves where just anyone can buy them. Maybe if they were legal to sell/be high on in certain areas, I could see that working, or maybe requiring special license or training to purchase and use, but all-out legalization is extreme IMO.

[Aquagraph]

Given the addictive power and dangerous nature of some drugs out there it just doesn't make sense to have them on the shelves where just anyone can buy them. Maybe if they were legal to sell/be high on in certain areas, I could see that working, or maybe requiring special license or training to purchase and use, but all-out legalization is extreme IMO.

Yeah, I'm pro for "drug license" to make it responsible and "witnessed ingestion" so the dealers couldn't buy some and sell it to minors. All-out legalization is something that I'm not okay with, that's why I mentioned regulation.

[Gilly]

Oh sorry I didn't read carefully.

Yeah, I just hate it when people blow on that horn like it would be totally cool for experimental, naive high schoolers and such to have easy access to powerful shit like crystal meth and PCP that could rot their brains from the inside, ESPECIALLY if used at a young age. It's just absurd.

[Aquagraph]

Yeah, I know the type. Though they can get their hands on the shit pretty easy already, can't they? And the shit they get they're hands on isn't gonna be coming with instructions on dosage, purity and the users won't be even knowing if it really is the right shit.

[FDG]

Yeah, I'm not sure you will find much disagreement on this forum, especially since your views are so balanced. You need a more provocative post in order to generate a heated discussion, if that was your aim

Anyway I would personally be slightly worried about legalizing opium. Mainly for my own safety, I would probably easily overdose.

[Aquagraph]

Yeah, I'm not sure you will find much disagreement on this forum, especially since your views are so balanced. You need a more provocative post in order to generate a heated discussion, if that was your aim

I WILL GIVE YOUR CHILDREN AIDS-INFESTED CANDY DRUGS! Come on! I truly crave some fundamentalist christian family value dipshit conservatives here!

Anyway I would personally be slightly worried about legalizing opium. Mainly for my own safety, I would probably easily overdose.

Opium! Well aren't you dandy!

[Absurd]

I WILL GIVE YOUR CHILDREN AIDS-INFESTED CANDY DRUGS! Come on! I truly crave some fundamentalist christian family value dipshit conservatives here!
Opium! Well aren't you dandy!

You told him girl. Don't think anything you said to FDG applies to FDG in the first place, but to the point, is there a reason why you're campaigning for it on a Internet forum? I mean, it's not exactly the government.

[Taknamay]

Iis there a reason why you're campaigning for it on a Internet forum? I mean, it's not exactly the government.

I think he's saying he should be allowed to make posts while high.

[EyeSeeCold]

As long as governments and the people that run it profit from trade restrictions, controlled substance Acts and illegal drug trafficking, it's not going to happen.

Politicians don't give a damn about marijuana and psychedelics on the street, they care about who's paying them the deniro.

[WVBRY]

I agree but unfortunalty we live in a world where too many people have mediocre "in between" views and democratic governments have to follow those views. There is no government seriously thinking of legalizing hard drugs and probably wont be for awhile. Nevertheless I think its good to get those ideas out there anyways because thats whats gonna cause change in the long run.

[DividedsGhost]

As long as governments and the people that run it profit from trade restrictions, controlled substance Acts and illegal drug trafficking, it's not going to happen.

Politicians don't give a damn about marijuana and psychedelics on the street, they care about who's paying them the deniro.

Sources Please or you're just making stuff up, lol.

[EyeSeeCold]

Sources Please or you're just making stuff up, lol.

I wouldn't be making stuff up, I'd be perpetuating. What I say is already available if you make the effort to read about your government's economic dealings and policies.

Politicians push policies only when they profit from parties that are funding the purpose.

Substance prohibition and regulation means high demand, low supply. You've got yourself a market for pharmaceutical imports, this is the case of the U.S. This one goes even for fully legal products, trade restrictions are common.

It's no secret the U.S. government has been involved in the illegal drug trafficking of cocaine(and legal Heroin) from Colombia and other South American countries(Noriega's Panama), and it's pretty obvious its military invaded the Middle East to secure opium and oil resources. The U.S. also funds and send guns, and other military weapons to the same damn countries that produce the illegal drugs in the first place...use your head.

[WVBRY]

I wouldn't be making stuff up, I'd be perpetuating. What I say is already available if you make the effort to read about your government's economic dealings and policies.

Politicians push policies only when they profit from parties that are funding the purpose.

Substance prohibition and regulation means high demand, low supply. You've got yourself a market for pharmaceutical imports, this is the case of the U.S. This one goes even for fully legal products, trade restrictions are common.

It's no secret the U.S. government has been involved in the illegal drug trafficking of cocaine(and legal Heroin) from Columbia and other South American countries, and it's pretty obvious its military invaded the Middle East to secure opium and oil resources. The U.S. also funds and send guns to countries that produce the same damn illegal drugs in the first place...use your head.

This is precisely why the war on drugs will never be won...nor finished.

[Aquagraph]

There is no government seriously thinking of legalizing hard drugs and probably wont be for awhile.

Former Mexican president seems to be up for it: http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...efit-everybody

Drugs (all of them) should obviously be legalized, but I would go further and argue that government should have no role in regulating drug manufacture/distribution/use.

But you do believe that laws should be issued against underage use, I assume?

Taxation is also a problem, given the likely possibility that government would enact insanely high tax rates on drugs (with the usual 'for the children!' excuses).

I still believe that taxation should be involved, but I won't argue on this one cos it's just gonna go to a libertalistic debate. Which is fine, but not in this thread.

You told him girl. Don't think anything you said to FDG applies to FDG in the first place, but to the point, is there a reason why you're campaigning for it on a Internet forum? I mean, it's not exactly the government.

Our team put up a website about this subject. Actually three websites. We are very passionate about this and we will thrash all internet with our propaganda. At this point, I believe more in grassroot information tactics more than telling it to the man. So here I am, boosting my ego by playing the role of an internet intellectual.

[Aquagraph]

Taxation shouldn't be involved because it's just another tool to perpetuate the senseless war on drugs.

You're right when you say too hard taxation would give rise to the black market. It always does.

[Absurd]

At this point, I believe more in grassroot information tactics more than telling it to the man.

I see.

You vote Vihr.

[Aquagraph]

You vote Vihr.

HOW DARE YOU! Those leftist hypocrites...
All hail Pirate Party!

[Absurd]

All hail Pirate Party!

No elected representatives is Finland.

[Aquagraph]

No elected representatives is Finland.

Lots of votes in election for such a young party is Finland.

[Absurd]

Lots of votes in election for such a young party is Finland.

In Finland*

Typo.

[Aquagraph]

@Absurd, Ditto.

Let's stick with the topic. ATTACK THE CONSENSUS

[Lotus]

i kinda agree with gilly, though i think ashton brings up some interesting points.

i think prohibition just escalates violence, ignorance, and douche-baggery. i.e., people who can't handle their shit because they haven't been exposed to it at early ages. i'm thinking of alcohol here, btw. we had a friend over from the coast guard yesterday who is old enough apparently to bust drug boats in puerto rico or w/e but not old enough to drink rum, and consequently he was just a retard all night, spilling his drink every five fucking minutes and falling over.

but some drugs are different. not everyone should be allowed to do them. that may sound elitist, but it's true. some people are just a danger to themselves and cannot handle what drugs open their mind to. it's a tough issue, because i want most drugs to be legalized (psychedelics especially, of course marijuana, pain killers i'm a little worried about, but fuck pcp and crack). but like my dad always told me, 'you gotta have a strong mind' and i think that's true. people have issues, they're assholes, they're paranoid, and for the most part, deflective... if anyone could buy even LSD i'd be a little concerned.

as you can see i'm undecided about all this. i think i just love drugs but i'm worried about the people who don't handle them well, and the repercussions of that for everyone.

[Aquagraph]

How to stop problem users from using? If they'ren't allowed to use drugs won't that create black market?

[Gilly]

i kinda agree with gilly, though i think ashton brings up some interesting points.

i think prohibition just escalates violence, ignorance, and douche-baggery. i.e., people who can't handle their shit because they haven't been exposed to it at early ages. i'm thinking of alcohol here, btw. we had a friend over from the coast guard yesterday who is old enough apparently to bust drug boats in puerto rico or w/e but not old enough to drink rum, and consequently he was just a retard all night, spilling his drink every five fucking minutes and falling over.

but some drugs are different. not everyone should be allowed to do them. that may sound elitist, but it's true. some people are just a danger to themselves and cannot handle what drugs open their mind to. it's a tough issue, because i want most drugs to be legalized (psychedelics especially, of course marijuana, pain killers i'm a little worried about, but fuck pcp and crack). but like my dad always told me, 'you gotta have a strong mind' and i think that's true. people have issues, they're assholes, they're paranoid, and for the most part, deflective... if anyone could buy even LSD i'd be a little concerned.

as you can see i'm undecided about all this. i think i just love drugs but i'm worried about the people who don't handle them well, and the repercussions of that for everyone.

Yea u ryte

[Lotus]

How to stop problem users from using? If they'ren't allowed to use drugs won't that create black market?

i mean yeah, i guess what i'm saying is there needs to be decent fucking education and parental maturity. and that's sadly unrealistic because people suck.

i'm lucky my dad was a deadhead in his days, and he's always been really straightforward with me about drugs and alcohol. i've done lsd, lsa, salvia, research chemicals, mushrooms, x, molly, coke & other amphetamines, benzos, opana, methadone, suboxone, roxies, & various other opiates, without once being in any danger. not once. but only because i always do my research, know my dose, know my source, don't mix what shouldn't be mixed, and have the right attitude about it (w/ the exception of e, cause you never really know what you're getting with that shit anyway — just drink water and have fun). because i can openly have a conversation with my dad about our psychedelic trips and share stories etc. i've never developed an i don't give a fuck attitude and harmed myself or others. nor have i ever been afraid cause i know what it is every single time, and i know when it will wear off. not everyone is so lucky. most kids are uneducated about drugs and have to do them in shitty environments.

i think super dangerous hard shit should probably not be easily accessible. i mean is there any real spiritual, physical, medicinal, or other real benefit of drugs like pcp? idk personally, but i doubt it.

like i said, it could be solved by education and parental support. but most parents and schools can barely talk about teen sex... i'm doubtful they'll be able to even think about educating about drugs.

[Gilly]

I think when it comes to drugs a "black market" is probably inevitable, and not totally a bad thing, because they will be taxed heavily, likely to the point that black markets could still be competitive.

Personally I think a big point to legalizing is that it takes away a certain degree of novelty from drugs. I know tons of people who only ever did drugs because they felt like "rebelling," and those are probably the most naive users, the most likely to overdose and/or not know how to handle their shit. I'm sure there would still be moderate cultural taboos, just like with alcohol, but in any case it will at least put a big dent in illegal drug trafficking which is responsible for all kinds of violence and related unnecessary sentencing and such, and will also make drugs less of a shiny unique novelty, and the crowd of people who do wind up using them will be widdled closer to being only those who are prepared for the experience.

[Aquagraph]

i mean yeah, i guess what i'm saying is there needs to be decent fucking education and parental maturity. and that's sadly unrealistic because people suck.

This.

i'm lucky my dad was a deadhead in his days, and he's always been really straightforward with me about drugs and alcohol. i've done lsd, lsa, salvia, research chemicals, mushrooms, x, molly, coke & other amphetamines, benzos, opana, methadone, suboxone, roxies, & various other opiates, without once being in any danger. not once. but only because i always do my research, know my dose, know my source, don't mix what shouldn't be mixed, and have the right attitude about it (w/ the exception of e, cause you never really know what you're getting with that shit anyway — just drink water and have fun). because i can openly have a conversation with my dad about our psychedelic trips and share stories etc.

Umm, my reaction to all this is: AWESOME. Your father sounds like a responsible parent according to this. Cool list. Coke ain't amphetamine, but you propably knew that and meant the traditional stimulants.

i've never developed an i don't give a fuck attitude and harmed myself or others.

I developed this attitude later on. First learn the rules, then break 'em. Not a lot of harm done so far.

i think super dangerous hard shit should probably not be easily accessible. i mean is there any real spiritual, physical, medicinal, or other real benefit of drugs like pcp? idk personally, but i doubt it.

Media pretty much bashed PCP, but it's a psychedelic so it almost HAS TO HAVE some spiritual, psychological benefits.
Yeah, I think that harder drugs should have pharmaceutical dispenseries.

like i said, it could be solved by education and parental support. but most parents and schools can barely talk about teen sex... i'm doubtful they'll be able to even think about educating about drugs.

BECAUSE TALKING ABOUT IT IS TELLING TO DO IT derp

I'm also a great supporter of needle exchange programs and those places where you can go shoot with medical staff at hand.

[Lotus]

Personally I think a big point to legalizing is that it takes away a certain degree of novelty from drugs. I know tons of people who only ever did drugs because they felt like "rebelling," and those are probably the most naive users, the most likely to overdose and/or not know how to handle their shit. I'm sure there would still be moderate cultural taboos, just like with alcohol, but in any case it will at least put a big dent in illegal drug trafficking which is responsible for all kinds of violence and related unnecessary sentencing and such, and will also make drugs less of a shiny unique novelty, and the crowd of people who do wind up using them will be widdled closer to being only those who are prepared for the experience.

yes yes yes... the novelty thing. that's why if your parents talk to you first it wouldn't be such a big deal

Media pretty much bashed PCP, but it's a psychedelic so it almost HAS TO HAVE some spiritual, psychological benefits.

a psychedelic? i always thought it was a disassociate. maybe both idk. and yeah coke is not amphetamine, i just kinda lumped them together as non-psychedelic uppers.

but i'm not sure whether pcp does have any reported spiritual/psychological benefits. i've never heard anyone ever advocate for it... i just feel like someone would have by now if it's ever helped a single person out there. maybe the media hypes it up to scare us, but the counterculture has done nothing to really dispute it like it does with other drugs...

I'm also a great supporter of needle exchange programs and those places where you can go shoot with medical staff at hand.

we all mostly just seem to be nodding at each other in this thread lol

[Gilly]

Yeah we do. Let's get the president of the DEA in here.

[Gilly]

I can still see drugs being culturally stigmatized—which I think is a good thing.

It is, and in more ways than one. It not only puts a bit of a damper on abuse and deters those with enough self-knowledge to foresee their own problems (I've met a surprising number of these people), but it makes doing the drugs better too, lol...people need to embrace the shadow and there should be incentive to do so...like being high.

[Aquagraph]

Yeah we do. Let's get the president of the DEA in here.

It's sad that those in favor of legalization are half of the time users. Kills credibility.

a psychedelic? i always thought it was a disassociate. maybe both idk.

It's spelled dissociate, btw. All of them are psychedelics.

but i'm not sure whether pcp does have any reported spiritual/psychological benefits. i've never heard anyone ever advocate for it... i just feel like someone would have by now if it's ever helped a single person out there. maybe the media hypes it up to scare us, but the counterculture has done nothing to really dispute it like it does with other drugs...

Well, its rare anyways so it's hard to dispute it and the media made it look bad with Big Lurch's murders. One fucked up trip.

we all mostly just seem to be nodding at each other in this thread lol

Yeah, it's backpatting thread. Damn we're right.

[Lotus]

It's spelled dissociate, btw. All of them are psychedelics.

oops, thanks. but anyway, i just feel like there's a difference, personally. i would categorize robotripping and pcp as more dissociative than psychedelics such as lsd and mushrooms. i mean there are dissociative psychdelics likes DMT and salvia, but you can remember the experiences and they're way more spiritual. from what i've heard of robotripping is fogginess and confusion. but since i've never done 'em, i'm not going to argue it

Well, its rare anyways so it's hard to dispute it and the media made it look bad with Big Lurch's murders. One fucked up trip.

yeah, that was tragic. apparently he stated he started smoking pcp for pain relief for a broken neck? so apparently he could handle it for a while, before it happened. the thing is though, what kind of bad trip makes you do something like that...

[mu4]

[mu4]

I think drugs should be illegal, especially pot. Why?

So we can make movies like this!

[Aquagraph]

oops, thanks. but anyway, i just feel like there's a difference, personally. i would categorize robotripping and pcp as more dissociative than psychedelics such as lsd and mushrooms. i mean there are dissociative psychdelics likes DMT and salvia, but you can remember the experiences and they're way more spiritual. from what i've heard of robotripping is fogginess and confusion.

That's pretty much about the conception I have as well.

This thread is becoming more about use, less about the politics around. Most of this is starting to become pretty offtopic as I don't think that qualities of the drugs really matter much in making good policy in this, point being: every drug is more dangerous -to the individual and to the collective- when illegal. But then again, most people do think that it concerns drug politics. So please continue on my behalf until someone wants to put up a thread about actual drug use.

Ashton, that was a question to those who doubted a bit the legalization/regulation model. Now you just put some more backpatting by posting something we all now seem to agree on.