War and Peace type the characters

[DaftPunk]

I think I opened once a thread about it but I strangely couldn't find it anymore. So I opened a new one, forgive me.
I am going to read the brothers Karamasov during vacation so prepare in advance for a brothers Karamasov thread

Here are my typings:

Natasha Rostova SEE or IEE
Ilja Rostov ESE
Nikolai Rostov LSE
Sofia Alexandrovna ESI (not sure)

Pierre Besuchov ILI(could be SLI)

Andrei Bolkonski LIE
Marja Bolkonskaja EII
Nikolai Bolkonski LSE(?)

Kutusov ILI
Napoleon Gamma-Extrovert

Edit: I think Tolstoy was ESI and not EIE

[strrrng]

Natasha Rostov - EIE
Nikolai - SEE or LSE
Pierre - SEI
Andre Bolkonsky - Ti-SLE
Prince Vasily - Fe-IEI
Maria Bolkonsky - EII
Helena Kuragin - Ti-SLE... maybe LIE
Prince Nikolay Bolkonsky - LSI
Count Rostov - xSE
Boris Drubetskoy - IEE

those are all I remember

agreed on Tolstoy... even LSI is farfetched once one sees his disposition toward aristocratic dealings

agreed on Kutuzov as well

as for Napoleon, likely Se-SxE

[DaftPunk]

Natasha Rostov - EIE
Nikolai - SEE or LSE
Pierre - SEI
Andre Bolkonski - Ti-SLE
Prince Vasily - Fe-IEI
Maria Bolkonsky - EII
Helena Kuragin - Ti-SLE... maybe LIE
Prince Nikolay Bolkonsky - LSI
Count Rostov - xSE
Boris Drubetskoy - IEE

those are all I remember

agreed on Tolstoy... even LSI is farfetched once one sees his disposition toward aristocratic dealings

agreed on Kutuzov as well

as for Napoleon, likely Se-SxE

I could imagine Beta for Natasha but she seems irrational and clearly extroverted how did you come to EIE?

Nikolai on the other hand seems to be a rational he's also pretty conservative and kind of conformistic. I think LSE makes the most sense

SEI is a very good typing for Pierre when I think about it

Andre is for me a typical Gamma and I can't see him as ethical. SLE would be my second choice though

I agree with your typing of Helena

LSI makes more sense than LSE for Nikolai Bolkonski. I

How did you come to IEE for Boris? IMO he's clearly Se/Ni valuing he's a carierist and very conformistic. His live is working his way up in a big system and don't giving a shit about others. He also only marries to get more influence. I think he's rational and obviously logical. I like LSI or LIE for him.

[strrrng]

she just struck me as an exemplary EIE 3. played the game, but in a more authentic way, with a kind of unspoken uncanniness to her presence. I don't recall any moral commentary or implicating behaviors from her as you got with many others; she seemed in her own and somewhat socially misplaced, despite standing out. she just seemed to care on a level reminiscent of a beta forced to accept stodgy formality and structure that doesn't always lead to ideal ends. I'd have to reread to isolate more qualities.

I could see andre as some Ni-LIE 3... initially I just pegged him as an SLE who 'found his place' but still sought more... either way, he did have an Ni-esque fascination with that almost mythical element of war and how it manifests within an army

for boris, I distinctly remember a passage describing the ease with which he understood and acclimated himself to what effectively was bureaucratic cocksucking... he "found it absurd how other men didn't think in the same vein..." this passage was similar to but distinct from the one about vassily in that it was centered more around the operant rules of the game he became so adept at playing, rather than the cues and nuances that were stored and arranged for optimal leverage. the only other type I could see would be SEE if he were a 3. Fi-valuing extrovert anyway

[DaftPunk]

she just struck me as an exemplary EIE 3. played the game, but in a more authentic way, with a kind of unspoken uncanniness to her presence. I don't recall any moral commentary or implicating behaviors from her as you got with many others; she seemed in her own and somewhat socially misplaced, despite standing out. she just seemed to care on a level reminiscent of a beta forced to accept stodgy formality and structure that doesn't always lead to ideal ends. I'd have to reread to isolate more qualities.

I could see andre as some Ni-LIE 3... initially I just pegged him as an SLE who 'found his place' but still sought more... either way, he did have an Ni-esque fascination with that almost mythical element of war and how it manifests within an army

for boris, I distinctly remember a passage describing the ease with which he understood and acclimated himself to what effectively was bureaucratic cocksucking... he "found it absurd how other men didn't think in the same vein..." this passage was similar to but distinct from the one about vassily in that it was centered more around the operant rules of the game he became so adept at playing, rather than the cues and nuances that were stored and arranged for optimal leverage. the only other type I could see would be SEE if he were a 3. Fi-valuing extrovert anyway

EIE is definately an option for Natasha I could imagine Si PoLR very well for her

Yes, Andre is LIE or SLE but LSI might also be a possibility

Interesting what you wrote on Boris. E3 is a good fit. Because he seems very Se/Ni valuing I think your SEE suggestion fits well

There are my E-typings:
Natasha Rostov - 7
Nikolai - 1
Pierre - 4
Andre Bolkonski - 3
Maria Bolkonsky - 4
Prince Nikolay Bolkonsky - 8
Count Rostov - 6 or 2
Boris Drubetskoy - 3

[strrrng]

I can't see Andre as an introverted thinking type... his blend of narcissism is a bit more... actively involved? like he's absorbed in what he's doing from a just enough detached pov? kind of why he finds fascination with psychological aspects of war. he'd have to be Ti-sub if SLE imo, glaring 3.

also I think I earlier mixed up nikolai with petya, who was the one who died at war, and is SEE, so I agree with LSE for nikolai.

I could see SEE for boris more so now... he's not quite respectfully adept enough at the game. even with vassily, you get a sense that there's some structure being leveraged, some broader set of conduct, whereas boris is just strictly playing the game 'according to the rules.'

as for etypes...

natasha - 3w4 sx/sp. a spotlight that doesn't court attention
pierre - 9w8. relatively introverted and densely immobile in habits. kind of environmentally dull or something
andre - 3w4 sx/sp
maria - 1 ... she's way too fixated on maintaining principle and 'rightness' to be a 4
prince nikolay - 8w9
count rostov - 6w7 > 2w3... I basically concluded that if he's ESE he's not a 2. sx/so
boris - 3w2 so
vassily - probably a 3
helena - 3w2 sx/sp
nikolay rostov - 1 or 6

[DaftPunk]

I can't see Andre as an introverted thinking type... his blend of narcissism is a bit more... actively involved? like he's absorbed in what he's doing from a just enough detached pov? kind of why he finds fascination with psychological aspects of war. he'd have to be Ti-sub if SLE imo, glaring 3.

also I think I earlier mixed up nikolai with petya, who was the one who died at war, and is SEE, so I agree with LSE for nikolai.

I could see SEE for boris more so now... he's not quite respectfully adept enough at the game. even with vassily, you get a sense that there's some structure being leveraged, some broader set of conduct, whereas boris is just strictly playing the game 'according to the rules.'

as for etypes...

natasha - 3w4 sx/sp. a spotlight that doesn't court attention
pierre - 9w8. relatively introverted and densely immobile in habits. kind of environmentally dull or something
andre - 3w4 sx/sp
maria - 1 ... she's way too fixated on maintaining principle and 'rightness' to be a 4
prince nikolay - 8w9
count rostov - 6w7 > 2w3... I basically concluded that if he's ESE he's not a 2. sx/so
boris - 3w2 so
vassily - probably a 3
helena - 3w2 sx/sp
nikolay rostov - 1 or 6

I agree with your e-typings. The more I think about it the more I think Nikolai Rostov is a 6 and not 1

I am still struggeling with typing Andre. SLE would make somehow sense but I think now he is highly serious Fi/Te valuing . I also read about Andre-typings in some russian forums and many types are dropped. IMO he has a bad intuition how things can develop over time and I like at the moment LSE/SEE the most for him. He's some ESXx e3

Do you think it's likely that Pierre is Natashas supervisor?

[strrrng]

I really can't see him as anything other than Ni/Se-valuing. there's none of the moral commitment and benign domineering you get with LSEs, he cares more about the mythical intricacies of warfare and later disillusionment than any personal or team-like aspects. this is also partly why I can't see SEE, think of petya and the type of investment he had, andre just doesn't give a fuck. he sits at home quasi-detachedly brooding on his marital dissatisfactions, staring at a bookcase... he's just way too emotionally and experientially compact for an ethical or Si type to make sense. I lean Ti-SLE because of obvious aristocratic and somewhat 'rogue' qualities, but the kind of impersonal narcissism is partly why I lean Ni-LIE as well. I have to think how much Te there really is, on a social level, in light of what seems like Ni-esque immersion, like he's in it more for the elucidation of a philosophical principle that will account for all his tribulations than any human sense of merit (think of how pierre aided in his own way). I didn't like it when he died though lol.

maybe for pierre supervising her. I can't recall any instances suggestive of it, but I don't see that bearing any differently on their respective types. he seemed like a kind of 'settlement' for her, they both remained a bit disillusioned throughout the story. maybe her not being an Fe-sub could make it less distinct.

[DaftPunk]

I really can't see him as anything other than Ni/Se-valuing. there's none of the moral commitment and benign domineering you get with LSEs, he cares more about the mythical intricacies of warfare and later disillusionment than any personal or team-like aspects. this is also partly why I can't see SEE, think of petya and the type of investment he had, andre just doesn't give a fuck. he sits at home quasi-detachedly brooding on his marital dissatisfactions, staring at a bookcase... he's just way too emotionally and experientially compact for an ethical or Si type to make sense. I lean Ti-SLE because of obvious aristocratic and somewhat 'rogue' qualities, but the kind of impersonal narcissism is partly why I lean Ni-LIE as well. I have to think how much Te there really is, on a social level, in light of what seems like Ni-esque immersion, like he's in it more for the elucidation of a philosophical principle that will account for all his tribulations than any human sense of merit (think of how pierre aided in his own way). I didn't like it when he died though lol.

maybe for pierre supervising her. I can't recall any instances suggestive of it, but I don't see that bearing any differently on their respective types. he seemed like a kind of 'settlement' for her, they both remained a bit disillusioned throughout the story. maybe her not being an Fe-sub could make it less distinct.

All you say about Andre makes sense. He's SLE or LIE. I liked him too and wasn't pleased when he died. He is really power driven and admires Napoleon a lot and is at the same time ashamed that he didn't achieved anything now. Though he hasn't concrete plans, his plans are more just achieving what would speak for Ti-SLE.

The relationship between Natasha and Pierre seems artificial to me and not only in the epilogue. I anyway think the epilogue is very artificial, far-fetched anddoesn't fit into the book. IMO the romance between Andre and Natasha feels way more true.

Do you remember Sonja the cousine of Natasha and Nikolai?
She seems to be ethical, introverted and rational. I have nothing to argue that she's intuitive but I can't immagine her as a Se-Ego so I like EII the most for her

[strrrng]

Yeah, it's really because of the diminution of ethos you see more distinctly after Andre is wounded that his relationship with Natasha becomes something one would hope for.. his death is a loss because it's a necessity, which makes Natasha's position more understandable, like the days of her impressing people at soirees is over. Andre sought power in his own way, but was never pathetically ambitious, and hence his respect for napoleon can be taken as the real beacon of his character and conflict -- it isn't because napoleon is 'the great man,' but what it really means and requires one to develop to be great... the kind of existentially nonchalant passing reflections he has when wounded are the other pole of this. So yeah, I lean more SLE, based on what seems like excessive Ni-seeking and the aristocratic 'requisite' implied by his attitude.

As for Natasha and Pierre's relationship, I agree despite not remembering the epilogue. I feel like he just became this surrogate, quasi-emotional backbone for her, and she some sort of idyllic remnant for him, as he was fairly disheveled after the dealings with the masons and whatnot. Things could only go so far at that point. Andre and Natasha's relationship wasn't made for civil society.

I could see EII for Sonja... initially I figured IEI or ESI. She seems like a 4 and generally indifferent to most happenings, and is a fitting example of the more basic kind of repression her role makes distinct... you're still family, but what can that mean these days, type of thing.

[DaftPunk]

Yeah, it's really because of the diminution of ethos you see more distinctly after Andre is wounded that his relationship with Natasha becomes something one would hope for.. his death is a loss because it's a necessity, which makes Natasha's position more understandable, like the days of her impressing people at soirees is over. Andre sought power in his own way, but was never pathetically ambitious, and hence his respect for napoleon can be taken as the real beacon of his character and conflict -- it isn't because napoleon is 'the great man,' but what it really means and requires one to develop to be great... the kind of existentially nonchalant passing reflections he has when wounded are the other pole of this. So yeah, I lean more SLE, based on what seems like excessive Ni-seeking and the aristocratic 'requisite' implied by his attitude.

As for Natasha and Pierre's relationship, I agree despite not remembering the epilogue. I feel like he just became this surrogate, quasi-emotional backbone for her, and she some sort of idyllic remnant for him, as he was fairly disheveled after the dealings with the masons and whatnot. Things could only go so far at that point. Andre and Natasha's relationship wasn't made for civil society.

I could see EII for Sonja... initially I figured IEI or ESI. She seems like a 4 and generally indifferent to most happenings, and is a fitting example of the more basic kind of repression her role makes distinct... you're still family, but what can that mean these days, type of thing.

Yes SLE-Ti seems to be the best fit for Andrei

Lucky you that you don't remember the awful epilogue.

How do you mean Andre and Natasha's relationship wasn't made for civil society?

Concerning Sonja E4 is maybe together with E6 the only E that makes sense. I don't think she has Se in her Ego-Block. That leaves EII, IEI and SEI for her but it's really hard to say which type fits best. From the book it's only obvious that she's ethical but I don't see hints for her being intuitive or sensoric.
I was pretty said for her that the book ended so bad fo her.

[strrrng]

How do you mean Andre and Natasha's relationship wasn't made for civil society?

It was too authentic. The investment was the kind that, on some level, would pay its own dividends.

Concerning Sonja E4 is maybe together with E6 the only E that makes sense. I don't think she has Se in her Ego-Block. That leaves EII, IEI and SEI for her but it's really hard to say which type fits best. From the book it's only obvious that she's ethical but I don't see hints for her being intuitive or sensoric.
I was pretty said for her that the book ended so bad fo her.

Yeah, I'd rule out SEI... she isn't innocuous enough, given her position, which she seems to understand in an aristocratic way. EII 4 could make sense, she wasn't quite as emotionally abandoned as I would expect an IEI 4 to be. The way she clung to Nikolai and endured the moral conflict would probably suggest EII as well.

[Moonbeaux Rainfox]

Skimmed through it, this time. I think I will probably not waste another attempt - trying to get through all of it. For whatever reason I don’t think I‘ll manage. Just wanted to add, because i'ts a good example:

Fedor Ivanovich Dolokhov SLE 8w7 A+

Fedor Ivanovich Dolokhov (Fedya) - Valiant in battle. A partisan leader in 1812. A cold almost psychopathic man, he is a noted duelist and drinker, but is caring for his disadvantaged family.

Another voice, from a man of medium height with clear blue eyes, particularly striking among all these drunken voices by its sober ring, cried from the window: "Come here; part the bets!" This was Dolokhov, an officer of the Semenov regiment, a notorious gambler and duelist, who was living with Anatole. Pierre smiled, looking about him merrily.
Anatole kept on refilling Pierre's glass while explaining that Dolokhov was betting with Stevens, an English naval officer, that he would drink a bottle of rum sitting on the outer ledge of the third floor window with his legs hanging out.

Dolokhov was of medium height, with curly hair and light-blue eyes. He was about twenty-five. Like all infantry officers he wore no mustache, so that his mouth, the most striking feature of his face, was clearly seen. The lines of that mouth were remarkably finely curved. The middle of the upper lip formed a sharp wedge and closed firmly on the firm lower one, and something like two distinct smiles played continually round the two corners of the mouth; this, together with the resolute, insolent intelligence of his eyes, produced an effect which made it impossible not to notice his face. Dolokhov was a man of small means and no connections. Yet, though Anatole spent tens of thousands of rubles, Dolokhov lived with him and had placed himself on such a footing that all who knew them, including Anatole himself, respected him more than they did Anatole. Dolokhov could play all games and nearly always won. However much he drank, he never lost his clearheadedness. Both Kuragin and Dolokhov were at that time notorious among the rakes and scapegraces of Petersburg.

Dolokhov slowly straightened his bent knee, looking straight with his clear, insolent eyes in the general's face.
"Why a blue coat? Off with it... Sergeant major! Change his coat... the ras..." he did not finish.
"General, I must obey orders, but I am not bound to endure..." Dolokhov hurriedly interrupted.
"No talking in the ranks!... No talking, no talking!"
"Not bound to endure insults," Dolokhov concluded in loud, ringing tones.
The eyes of the general and the soldier met. The general became silent, angrily pulling down his tight scarf.
"I request you to have the goodness to change your coat," he said as he turned away.

"As far as the service goes he is quite punctilious, your excellency; but his character..." said Timokhin.
"And what about his character?" asked the regimental commander.
"It's different on different days," answered the captain. "One day he is sensible, well educated, and good-natured, and the next he's a wild beast.... In Poland, if you please, he nearly killed a Jew."

Dolokhov smiled. "Don't trouble. If I want anything, I won't beg-I'll take it!"

He remembered the expression Dolokhov's face assumed in his moments of cruelty, as when tying the policeman to the bear and dropping them into the water, or when he challenged a man to a duel without any reason, or shot a post-boy's horse with a pistol. That expression was often on Dolokhov's face when looking at him. "Yes, he is a bully," thought Pierre, "to kill a man means nothing to him. It must seem to him that everyone is afraid of him, and that must please him. He must think that I, too, am afraid of him-and in fact I am afraid of him," he thought, and again he felt something terrible and monstrous rising in his soul.

[after being challenged for a duel] "And do you feel quite calm?" Rostov asked. Dolokhov paused. "Well, you see, I'll tell you the whole secret of dueling in two words. If you are going to fight a duel, and you make a will and write affectionate letters to your parents, and if you think you may be killed, you are a fool and are lost for certain. But go with the firm intention of killing your man as quickly and surely as possible, and then all will be right, as our bear huntsman at Kostroma used to tell me. 'Everyone fears a bear,' he says, 'but when you see one your fear's all gone, and your only thought is not to let him get away!' And that's how it is with me. A demain, mon cher."*

Beneath his smile Rostov saw in him the mood he had shown at the Club dinner and at other times, when as if tired of everyday life he had felt a need to escape from it by some strange, and usually cruel, action.

Anatole was sincerely fond of Dolokhov for his cleverness and audacity. Dolokhov, who needed Anatole Kuragin's name, position, and connections as a bait to draw rich young men into his gambling set, made use of him and amused himself at his expense without letting the other feel it. Apart from the advantage he derived from Anatole, the very process of dominating another's will was in itself a pleasure, a habit, and a necessity to Dolokhov.