View Point

[Beautiful sky]

Please help me understand something. Will duals have the same viewpoint?

How if they are at opposite ends of each pole? For instance, I am sure that I am INFj and will my Dual, ESTj, have the same viewpoint on a topic as I will?

I know that I think in terms of Feelings and my dual in terms of Logic, so eventually one of us will have to either agree with one's view point or how could they have the same, what would they talk about? If they had the same viewpoint wouldn't they be identicals instead of duals?

[silverchris9]

I have found that SLEs have completely opposite views from me externally, and completely identical views to me internally. Duality is to me a phenomenon of being so different that you swing back around and are the same. Duals tend to have viewpoints that complete one another. Like, I think SLEs can be fatalistic without IEIs, and IEIs can ignore the real world. For instance, I was arguing with my SLE buddy about the difference between knowledge that is good and knowledge that is good for an individual. That is, maybe it's good to know how to persuade people, but if you're going to be manipulative, it would have been better for you not to know how to persuade people. But it would be stupid to think that capacity-to-persuade is not a good in itself. It would also be stupid to ignore the real world consequences that knowledge has. So the SLE will get the IEI to focus on the real world and what actually is, and the IEI will get the SLE to focus on, I dunno, the forms and shit. You need both sides to have a complete understanding.

In the same way, you and an LSE might have different views on an issue (this is going to be very general because, well, I'm not a delta rational): you might say, "well, we absolutely have to help children in Africa! We just have to send them assistance." But the LSE might say, "No, we can't just send assistance blindly, especially not to country X, because the facts are, country X breaks the law all the time." Something like that. I mean, like I said, that was a bad example, but I hope you get the gist. Opposite but complementary, even necessary to one another.

Also, I find that duals have similar... processes, maybe? Like the argument will be different but the framework for understanding will be the same: you both value the same functions the same amount. You both consider your respective leading functions to be the most important ways of viewing the world, and you both consider your respective creative functions to be important and useful, but not as central or basic as your leading functions... it means that you come to the issue with very very similar frameworks, and will often even use some of the same methodology. Duals... well, IEIs are SLEs flipped inside out and SLEs are IEIs flipped inside out. So ya know... it's probably the same for LSEs and EIIs. I can't really explain it well further than that.

[Aiss]

From Intertype Relationships:

1. Support.

and | and | and | and

This looks as complementing of one partner’s weak traits by the strong ones of the other. Often people wonder: “What makes them work together, or be friends, they are so different!” However, understanding is not always good in this kind of relations: when one has already understood everything, the other needs to be persuaded, which takes time. More often partners trust each other, because 'he anyway knows and manages it better than me'.

As silverchris stated, it's completion rather than similarity.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

So the SLE will get the IEI to focus on the real world and what actually is, and the IEI will get the SLE to focus on, I dunno, the forms and shit. You need both sides to have a complete understanding.

You focus on the real world just fine, same as I. You're talking about a Te polr thing, which the ESTp deals with for you by making you just not stressing about it or not putting any attention to it whatsoever in a non-neurotic fashion.

Everything is based on the 'real world.' What do you mean by real world? Taxes? Jobs? Responsibilities? All that stuff falls into place when you are emotionally and psychologically healthy. Or you just sort of suck it up as something you have to do regardless of how you feel so you can learn more and have even more faggy infp insights and enhance more to your strengths. I would say that's more of an objective misguided perception (that can be guided in ways that would better suit us INFps) then socionics related.

Real world is too much of a loaded phrase. As well as 'forms.' It's more nuanced and complicated than that.

[anndelise]

Dual will have complimentary information processing, but may not reach the same conclusions as yourself, or hold the same beliefs, or even agree with your own conclusions/beliefs.

Even identicals won't necessarily hold the same viewpoints.

Viewpoints have to do with one's map of the world, which is also affected by one's past experiences, education, culture (including family life, etc), religious or humanitarian beliefs (if any), etc.

An example taken to the extreme to show what I mean, a person who's led a sheltered life will hold different viewpoints than a person who grew up on the roughest streets. They may be dual types, or even identical types, but their world maps will so greatly differ that they have completely, even contradictory, viewpoints.

[Gilly]

Hi there

[717495]

Mmm not really the same viewpoint, but the same understanding or acceptance of you.

[anndelise]

The benefits of duality aren't due to some mystical in-syncness where both parties automatically agree with each other, nor that both world maps are exactly the same.

The benefits of duality is that
a) both parties deal with completely different things, different topics, etc.
b) the ego elements of each party compliment the elements of the other party.

This means that their egos don't overlap. Their egos won't come into conflict based on those information elements.

Examples below:

In the case of Delta NF with Delta ST, the Delta NF's ego focuses on internal statics (those hidden meanings or parts of the psyche/personality that remains relatively stable), while the Delta ST's ego focuses on external dynamics (those explicit events and actions that change in varying ways). It's much like divvying up a job. You do this part, I'll cover this other part. You've spent more time and energy dealing with that, whereas I don't, so I'll try to trust you on this particular topic.

But the two Delta NFs' egos both focus on internal statics, leading to a potential conflict based on each individual's history. If the history is similar enough, their maps may be similar enough, that they constantly agree with each other. But if their history is completely different from each other's, then while both dealing with internal statics, there's a decent chance that their beliefs will conflict.

(An example, my mother FiNe is quite religious, placing her faith in God and the church she converted to. I was raised in the same religion, but with different church members and leaders. At 17 1/2, after running away from my father, I saw and experienced a different side of the church. A side that disgusted and angered me. At late 20's, I saw yet another side of the conversion process that left a friend alone in her time of need, having given her so much attention and help until the baptism occurred, then suddenly dropping her while they went off to convert some other hapless soul. My mother and I have talked about these experiences, but my mother still sides with the church, placing her faith in it, while I've become an inactive member who doesn't particularly think much of how it's often led. As such, in some areas of internal statics that have been influenced by the same religion, we disagree enough that we've learned that it's better for our relationship if we avoid discussing such things. This includes various ethical considerations in terms of politics, and how to deal with other people.)

As well, both Delta NFs will run into slight conflicts (usually over the long term) with other types due to one or two aspects overlapping. For example, Delta NFs and Beta NFs both deal with internal aspects, but one is static, while the other is dynamic. Delta NF wants to talk about the parts that are relatively stable, that consistently occur, while the Beta NF wants to talk about the changes and interactions. The Delta NF may be ok with talking about the interactions, but they'll keep trying to turn the talk into those interactions which are relatively consistent. The Beta NF sometimes doesn't understand, or finds it useless to limit to only those interactions. And so the Delta and Beta NFs come into some conflict or feel misunderstood.

And so on with other types.
---

So, yeah, basically, because duality deals with completely different things, yet have the same 'language' so to speak, the communication goes relatively smoothly, though the conclusions may differ. Basically, each party has their 'job', which doesn't conflict with the other's 'job'.


(Note, this supports silverchris9's post, not meant to contradict it or such)

[anndelise]

Oh, and

Hi Gilly *waves*

[Beautiful sky]

Oh, and

Hi Gilly *waves*

That was very well structured. Thank you.

[anndelise]

Originally Posted by anndelise
Oh, and

Hi Gilly *waves*

That was very well structured. Thank you.

Except I probably shoulda added "..." after the and.

[Mattie]

silverchris and anndelise basically covered it. You feel like you're so opposite but so complimentary. You may be different and communicate in different ways, but somehow it is always clear and organic feeling. Getting them to think your way is a different story, but the communication aspect is rather clear.

[silverchris9]

Getting them to think your way is a different story, but the communication aspect is rather clear.

Seconded.