ENTp + ISFp duality videos
I could be wrong but I'm thinking they're both SEI. Dude Si-SEI and chick Fe-SEI. Cashier seems LSE. The whole construction feels more delta tinged to me.
-- ILE, the Parade Rainer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <-- Rain
Parade <-- Parade
Arctures: delta just produces boring people
Arctures: but that's how we like it
vero: who needs a real person
vero: That's why I date an SLI
dolphin: someone tell gulanzon adjusting shower water to the right temperature is not si
Kraezz: you just have to do the ****** thing sometimes
ILIs are the true parade rainers though. /rains on your paradeOriginally Posted by shindaiwa21
I could be wrong but I'm thinking they're both SEI. Dude Si-SEI and chick Fe-SEI. Cashier seems LSE. The whole construction feels more delta tinged to me.
-- ILE, the Parade Rainer
Parade <-- Parade
Either way, I wouldn't mind meeting a woman who read JLA. Le sigh.
It's clearly intended to be an ILE guy and an SEI girl in my opinion. Notice how he is the one who initiates contact (extraversion), but he's not very good at it (weak ethics). The comic books represent their shared valued Ne, which they both feel the need to hide in America's image-conscious Se-valuing culture.
Quaero Veritas.
if they are supposedly Fe-valuers, why would their emotions have to be explained in the thought bubbles, instead of just letting clearly expressed emotions speak for themselves?
this video focuses more on Fi than Fe, it's about subdued feelings of resonance, attraction and shared feelings.
The thought bubbles use emoticons, which by their nature express different kinds of emotional states. Fe is the element which deals with our changing states of emotion (internal dynamics of objects). Fi deals with sentiments and personal opinions, which cannot be expressed in emoticon form (certainly not the emoticons used in this film). This is because Fi deals with the relationships between people (internal statics of fields), not people's fluctuating emotional states.
In other words, just because it's not expressed externally, doesn't mean it's not Fe.
Obviously, elements of both kinds of Ethics are present in the video -- it depicts the forming of a new relationship, after all, and how the girl's Fi sentiments toward the guy change from "I don't care for you" to "I like you". But in my opinion the thought bubbles clearly depict the Fe emotional states of an ILE and an SEI.
Quaero Veritas.
I decided to analyze this movie from the perspective of the different Information Elements. It's a nice little case study, I think. The primary elements on display are Ne, Fe, and Fi.
Se: The guy is somewhat slovenly and weak-looking, not particularly attractive. The girl is good-looking and has confident body language. The video is Ne-valuing, because in the end this is shown to be not very important.
Ne: The video is all about how the true nature and hidden potential of things is not always indicated by their external appearance, so it is strongly Ne-valuing. The comics hidden in the textbooks represent the true, hidden nature of their respective owners. By taking a chance and taking action, the guy uncover's the girl's true hidden nature. The whole film is basically a metaphor for Ne.
Te: There is not much Te information in this movie. Whatever the guy is saying to the girl in line about her textbook may be of a Te nature, explaining her negative reaction (SEI Te-PoLR).
Fe: The emoticons represent unexpressed emotional states. The guy goes from happy and amused (reading his comic), to hopeful (seeing the girl), to disappointed and glum (when she rejects his initial advance), to embarrassed (when he falls), to shocked (when she shows him her JLA comic), to filled with joy (when they start talking about comics.) The girl goes from mostly emotionless (note the lack of emoticon when she smiles at him initially), to bored and disinterested (when the guy tries to talk about her textbook), to surprised (when she sees his Teen Titans comic), to amused (when she shows him her JLA comic), to feeling the emotions associated with love (when they start talking about comics).
Fi: The sentiments and personal opinions in this movie can be deduced from the emotional states presented in the emoticons and facial expressions of the actors. The guy is initially attracted to the girl, and his opinion of her doesn't change until he discovers her true nature as a comics nerd, at which point he becomes even more attracted. The girl initially finds the guy somewhat interesting, until he tries to talk to her about her textbook, at which point she begins to find him unappealing. This opinion stays the same, until she sees his true nature as a secret comics-reader, at which point she begins to find him attractive.
Ti: There isn't really any Ti information in this movie that I can see. It's possible there is some implied at the end, when they're discussing comics.
Si: There isn't much Si information in this movie. The guy's initial attraction is probably partly Si-based (she seems pleasant and comfortable). And those cookies are probably delicious.
Ni: There is a bit of subtle Ni here -- when the girl initially rejects him, the guy seems to give up for a moment, predicting that any subsequent advances will be met with similar failure. The cashier guy encourages him that he still has a chance and he should go for it, and in the end Ne possibility wins out over Ni probability.
Quaero Veritas.
"the forming of a new relationship"
"girl's sentiments toward the guy"
yes you said it, this is Fi information that is being focused on in this video. the fact that the emotions are being kept "hidden" (in the thought bubbles) shows that these people do not value Fe. also, often the emoticons indicate things like attraction (the guy), dislike/repulsion (the girl's reaction to his approach), liking something (shared positive sentiments towards the comic books)... this is all Fi stuff.
since this is an Fi-oriented video, i don't understand how the conclusion could possibly be to type the people involved as Alphas.
an ILE verbalizing Te and hitting his dual's PoLR....? i don't think so. Te is in an ILEs Id, those are functions that aren't shared and verbalized to the outside world, people keep Id function information to themselves for their own private use.
Fe-valuing types do not like leaving emotions unexpressed! that is what Fi-valuing types do, because they suppress and devalue Fe.Fe: The emoticons represent unexpressed emotional states....
I would say that the theme of the movie is IEE: The discovery of each person's hidden true nature (Ne) leads to a relationship (Fi). So you're probably correct in that. But I don't see how that would have any bearing on the types of the characters. I could make an Se movie about wealth and power, but that doesn't mean the main characters have to be Se-valuing.
Also, as I said, the Fi information in this movie is derived mostly by inference from the emotional states expressed in the "emoticon bubbles". When the girl rejects the guy, her thought bubble doesn't say "I don't like you," but rather "-_-", indicative of a bored, mildly unpleasant emotional state. "I don't like you" is an inference on the part of the viewer. It is the Fe which is explicitly spelled out in this movie, not the Fi.
I should also note that the "emoticon bubbles" are really part of the movie's Ne>Se theme: what things appear to be on the outside (Se, external statics of objects) are not always what they really are on the inside (Ne, internal statics of objects). The Ne>Se theme is thus mirrored with Fe>Te: what someone is doing (Te, external dynamics of objects) is not always the same as what someone is feeling (Fe, internal dynamics of objects).
That's more true of the Ignoring function than the Demonstrative. People treat the Demonstrative function as a sort of game -- amusing, but ultimately not that important. ILE has Te in its Demonstrative function, and if you spend much time around ILEs, you'll find they often talk about things like computer technology, numbers and specification of said technology, how to achieve results using the most effective methods, etc. LIIs, their mirrors, tend to Ignore such data, but will sometimes talk about their predictions for the future (Demonstrative Ni).
In general, the unvalued functions are seen as things that "other people like", and tend to be used in "polite" or long psychological distance communication, as the guy in this video seems to have attempted to do. As a Dual relationship develops, partners discover that they share the same likes and dislikes, and start to rely more on their Ego and Super-Id for communication with each other, as they no longer feel like they need to be "polite" -- not coincidentally, that's precisely what is depicted in this movie.
Fe-valuing means that Fe-valuing types consider emotional states to be important, not that they never leave emotional states unexpressed. This is especially true for Fe-valuing logical types, who are not very good at expressing their emotions (weak Fe), and often wish they could express their emotions but find themselves unable or afraid to do so.
Likewise, Fi-valuing does not mean that Fi-valuing types never express emotion (IEEs and SEEs express emotion quite frequently through their Demonstrative function), but simply that they find emotional states to be unimportant. An Fi valuer finds sentiments and personal opinions to be what is truly important, and tends to get annoyed at people who treat emotional states as important and serious matters.
Note that in this video, the girl's body language and facial expressions tend to match pretty closely what her "emoticon bubble" indicates. This makes sense for an Fe-Ego like SEI. It's the guy who is having trouble expressing his emotions, which is characteristic of an Fe-SuperId like ILE.
Quaero Veritas.
lol, another Glam vs Krig debate.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Another? When was the first one?
[Edit: Oh, never mind, it was this thread. Interestingly, it was a similar sort of discussion, only with Te/Ti instead of Fe/Fi. These are the good kind of debates, where we discuss actual socionics and don't just randomly insult each other.]
Quaero Veritas.
I kinda agree more with Krig, but I think teh movie is too short and simple to be analized. Nerds.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
As an LII, I believe that everything can be analyzed!
Quaero Veritas.
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=34644Another? When was the first one?
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
blah Krig why do you try to "teach" me basic socionics concepts? it makes it hard for me to respond (though i will). i'm not a newbie!
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I find it hard to keep track of who knows what, so I tend to start from scratch each time. I'm just trying to be clear as to why I believe what I believe, in hopes that you'll explain why you believe what you believe, and then we can start trying to logically figure out which one of us (if either) is correct. It comes across as somewhat blunt at times, because I'm primarily focused on logical accuracy, rather than its possible emotional impact.
Quaero Veritas.
As an ILE with an SEI for a few years, I'm with Krig on this one.
Shyness = anemotion as well
Before I know if the territory is safe for displaying lots
This is the place where I procrastinate on things Sig related.
ILE
the problem here is that we have different opinions on what manifestations of the Fe and Fi are in the context of this video, and also i think there is confusion with the meanings of terms such as "emotion" and "internal" and such.
when i talk about "emotions" i mean Fe.
when i talk about "feelings" i mean Fi.
yeah Fe is "internal", so Fe types focus on reading people's internal states, detecting what people are currently experiencing emotionally, and for expressing their own internal state and being able to bring out these states in others. of course Fe types aren't going to necessarily display their emotions 100% of the time, but their preference is to be able to do so freely, rather than keep them "hidden".
what these characters do in the video is show their clear preference to keep their emotions "hidden". the fact that that emotions are being shown in the thought bubbles, instead of having the characters display these things themselves, is significant and points to what kind of communication the characters prefer and choose to display. what they display to each other, and what they connect on, are feelings - him liking the girl, both of them liking comic books, her becoming attracted to him because they share the same liking for comic books, etc. when they smile serenely at each other towards the this is not a display of Fe so much as mutual understanding "hey we like the same thing!" which is Fi.
about the Demonstrative being a "game": that's an old Expatian idea that i have come to disagree with. people are not going to treat their Demonstrative as a "game", it's something that you have fine control and understanding of (so you can watch out for your dual's PoLR) but it's not something that you really want to give to other people (you do that with your Ego functions.) if people were constantly expressing their Demonstrative function the way a type with the same element in their Ego would, they wouldn't attract their duals and other compatible types.
I see this as more about Fi-PoLR (and how it interplays with Fe) so far, based on the ILEs and SLEs I know/have known. Just a thought.As an ILE with an SEI for a few years, I'm with Krig on this one.
Shyness = an
Before I know if the territory is safe for displaying lots
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
I don't know where I stand in this debate per se, or on the specific typings, but to me, the emotions in this video are not hidden. The actors emote quite a lot, imo!
(The concept: emulate an old silent film, but with emoticons rather than title cards?)
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
That's what I thought. It's just an artistic choice.
But debate away, if you must
Yeah, I appreciate where glam is coming from, but I basically agree.
Clearly, the video is about, being a Valentine's day thing, but the character is clearly an Alpha NT stereotype. The point is that he's not good at
).
I don't think you can comment so quickly on the type here.
This is more or less a Fi valuing video but I don't think you can say the characters fit a alpha stereotype.
As far Fi-polr etc actions, I don't see any of that here. I see mostly weakand not weak ethics. Clumsy come-ons and shy initiations aren't necessarily a product of weak ethics. It seems he's actually pretty attuned to his Fi, he feels attraction and acts on it immediately. I would have to scrutinize it and overthink it, etc.
If this guy was Fi-PoLR, he would have been PoLR hit once in the video already. The friendly reassurance of a cashier is not going to overcome that. Unless of course he wasn't PoLR hit.
I think the character may easily be a IEE instead of a ILE.
Fi Polr could just as well not scrutinize (or at least, scrutinize incorrectly). I could be shy, I could be overly assuming. I've missed opportunities and have mistakenly saw ones that weren't there. And besides that, sometimes my ideas work out too. In the case of being bold, it goes pretty far back. I remember I used to pinch random girls' butts in school, when I must have only been 8 or 9. I remember being nervous about it, but I'd do it anyways. I'd do similar things in other areas of life too. I've probably grown into hanging back and more well thought out behavior. I still don't go out of my way to promoteI don't think you can comment so quickly on the type here.
This is more or less a Fi valuing video but I don't think you can say the characters fit a alpha stereotype.
As far Fi-polr etc actions, I don't see any of that here. I see mostly weak
If this guy was Fi-PoLR, he would have been PoLR hit once in the video already. The friendly reassurance of a cashier is not going to overcome that. Unless of course he wasn't PoLR hit.
I think the character may easily be a IEE instead of a ILE.everywhere though. Perhaps I'm IEE myself for simply taking actions with people, but I'd rather place the burden on you first in explaining why Fi polr would overthink it.
As I said before,Fi Polr could just as well not scrutinize (or at least, scrutinize incorrectly). I could be shy, I could be overly assuming. I've missed opportunities and have mistakenly saw ones that weren't there. And besides that, sometimes my ideas work out too. In the case of being bold, it goes pretty far back. I remember I used to pinch random girls' butts in school, when I must have only been 8 or 9. I remember being nervous about it, but I'd do it anyways. I'd do similar things in other areas of life too. I've probably grown into hanging back and more well thought out behavior. I still don't go out of my way to promote
I can be bold, charming, flirty, etc, but I usually get a double dose of apprehension when I start feeling for someone, which is extraordinarily rare. If I was SLE, I might go a different route and be extremely persistent and straight forward.
Absolutely nothing in the video indicates Fi-PoLR, the guy isn't a tactless asshole, he doesn't say something offensive. He doesn't pitch her butt or grab her. He's just awkward.
I think the people that type this person ILE, just saw awkward comic nerd and thought ILE.
Last edited by mu4; 04-04-2011 at 07:04 PM.
OK, I understand.As I said before,
I can be bold, charming, flirty, etc, but I usually get a double dose of apprehension when I start feeling for someone, which is extraordinarily rare. If I was SLE, I might go a different route and be extremely persistent and straight forward.
Absolutely nothing in the video indicates Fi-PoLR, the guy isn't a tactless asshole, he doesn't say something offensive. He doesn't pitch her butt or grab her. He's just awkward.
I think the people that type this person ILE, just saw awkward comic nerd and thought ILE.
I'd say that things can turn for the worse more (in my case) in building or solidifying relationships. Second stage, so to speak. And yeah, as much as I'm able to be inviting at first, I don't have a persistence presence like an SLE might. If anything, I can find out just through the course of conversation if they appreciate my perspective. If they don't, I just pull back. Sometimes it's frustrating, and I want to understand why, but I wouldn't say I'm straight forward in getting to the bottom of it.
Beta STs are just as clumsy and anxious about initiating relationships as Alpha NTs, and often need some sort of explicit rule system to go on.
For the record, I never said that I saw Fi-PoLR in the video. I was commenting only on VILEvenezuelan's post in that regard.
From what I've seen, Fi-PoLR can manifest a lot of different ways--sometimes too bold, sometimes too shy. It seems to be about behaviors arising from some kind of interpersonal uncertainty, so what VILE was saying about feeling things out fit with that, just based on what I've seen.
Just some non-definitive stuff from real life (long) ...
The two Beta STs I know best, I can't say that they are clumsy and anxious about initiating relationships as Jxrtes noted. My SLE boyfriend, when I met him, was sort of slick and charming. He does, however, have a history of not being sure of how to get close to someone, and of how or whether to end relationships that aren't working out. I can imagine, based on what he's told me, that when he was younger he might have been ... not awkward, but just unwilling or unable to form intimate relationships.
[Not Fi-PoLR, just Beta-ST: The (probably) LSI woman I've been friends with for years, very pretty/sexy, involved in tons of relationships over the years. She can seem a bit shy when you meet her, even though she's very assertive, too. I think I noticed this less in her friendship with me, but I have observed her doing, from my pov, too little or too much in terms of how she interacts with others, not unlike the above SLE.]
Other Beta STs I know irl are probably similar to the above.
The ILE-Ti I dated for a few years when I was very young, he didn't seem particularly shy or unsure upon meeting people (he went for acting "stoic" with unknown people), but over time he for sure had a terribly hard time judging who liked him and who didn't. He could also exhibit really shitty behavior toward people who cared about him, not realizing how this damaged his relationships. I remember, after many years and post-breakup when we were still friends he said to me once, at the age of maybe 28, with a touch of wonder, "I see now that when you love someone, you have to wear kid gloves." Well, duh.
And my apparently ILE-Ne son. Shy with strangers, bigtime. Talks his head off with friends. Gets in arguments with everyone. Gets away with it because he's good at arguing and cute, and because he quickly forgets the altercations. That's not just kid stuff; I wasn't like that when I was a kid, and I see other kids alla time and their behavior ranges as widely as adults'.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
I can see a case for IEE but ILE works better. Sensing AND ethics are at play here, and there is no evidence for
There is plenty of Fi values in this video. The video ends with them having a connection over something they both like(Fi).
"I like that. You like that. I like you!"
This is the message at the end. Fe type ethics would be more like.
If the message would have been more, "You are cool. I am cool. Let's party!" I would have entertained Fe but it's not. It's about the forming of a relationship based on mutual likes.
You earlier attributed this to Ne, but that's not really something Ne related.
Ne may be about being open minded and tolerant to interests, but it doesn't require the same likes or dislikes or any sort of empathic connection based on those interests.
ILE's ego functions are
they want people to like them for being interesting and opinionated in communication and trusting them to be strategic and proficient in action. Liking the same things from the get go is not a primary characteristic.
A better alternative video for Fe would have been guys sees girl, guy approaches girl, guy gets rejected, walks away dejected, aliens invade earth, guy wipes out aliens(methods depends on type), guy gets girl(doesn't matter which one), celebration ensues.
Last edited by mu4; 04-06-2011 at 04:53 PM.
That's a huge stretch.
More like they found a common interest and connected over it.
That isn't
That's a huge stretch.
More like they found a common interest and connected over it.
That isn't
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...ation_elements
Let's look at the semantic content and what other people think of Fi.
Rick's version
http://en.socionics.ru/index.php?opt...254&Itemid=137
Moral categories – good – evil, ideology, morals, morality, decency, religion, conscience, good – bad.
Attraction – obtrusiveness, tiresomness, dislike, repulsion, attachment, psychological distance, inclination.
Feelings expression – undue familiarity, tactfulness, diplomacy, mercy, tenderness, indulgence, tolerance, ability not to hurt, humaneness.
Feelings – kindness, envy, anger, love – hatred, sympathy – antipathy, compassion.
Peoples’ relationships – animosity, friendship.
It seems
It's not a stretch. You're stretching here trying to say that it's irrelevant.
You can quibble over interpretations here, but that's the problem with video, things can get a bit implicit. From the implicit indicators, I think they both actually "like" comics and enjoy reading them vs just intellectual interest.
They formed a
I don't see much
Anyways, I'm not sure I care what type the character are.
But are they stereotypical ILE/SEI pair, absolutely not.
For fuck's sake."Liking" comic books.... liking anything, for that matter (and bonding over that) is just human. Not exclusively
Oh yeah. So if I like something I might be Fi valuer. What more, SLEs and ILEs don't like anything.
For fuck's sake.It's not that ILE's and SLE's don't like anything, it's about how they present these likes and dislikes.
I've had friends say to me directly and usually in a exasperated tones, "Do you like anything at all!?"
I tell them, "Sure, I like stuff."
They say, "What stuff?"
I tell them, "Um, this and that."
They say to me, "Really? Sure didn't sound like that the way you were tearing this and that apart."
In information preference, ILE/SLE's don't always verbalize their likes and dislikes in communication.
Instead of saying, I like xxx, I may say, xxx makes me laugh, or xxx is talented or a myriad of other things.
Take the context of this thread or even the forum, I almost wrote "I like comics too but..." maybe 10 times in different posts, but somehow it always got edited out of the final posts. Why did that happen, why did I edit that out, why is the fact that the number of times I've verbalized, "I like" in the personal in the entire history of this forum is rare.
Maybe if you never say it, you never let other people know, nobody hears you say it, then people will think you don't that about you at all.
Last edited by mu4; 04-07-2011 at 05:11 PM.
Someone I know fairly well IRL is pretty clearly INFj. Known her for years. One thing people comment on frequently in regard to her is the incredible strength of her sympathy/antipathy toward objects, people. Now, everyone likes and dislikes stuff. In her case, it's unusual, and it's not objective.
Rick's version
http://en.socionics.ru/index.php?opt...254&Itemid=137
Moral categories – good – evil, ideology, morals, morality, decency, religion, conscience, good – bad.
Attraction – obtrusiveness, tiresomness, dislike, repulsion, attachment, psychological distance, inclination.
Feelings expression – undue familiarity, tactfulness, diplomacy, mercy, tenderness, indulgence, tolerance, ability not to hurt, humaneness.
Feelings – kindness, envy, anger, love – hatred, sympathy – antipathy, compassion.
Peoples’ relationships – animosity, friendship.
It seems
A single example: She hates bananas to the extent that it's almost like a phobia (from my pov). If someone eats a banana, she has to get very far away from them. The banana seems to cause her distress.
That's not just "I like/dislike bananas." I like bananas. I don't like, oh, shrimp, but it's not a "thing" with me; no one notices that dislike, or a general pattern of aversion.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
Personally, I see myself as a person ready to stimulate people's interests (or at least, kind of indirectly do my part in that). I have my share of critical observations too, but half of the time, I may tie in elements of someone's interests to my own in some roundabout way, engage it on that level, and further discussion. Instead of expressing dislike, I might see how things relate.
As far as bad reputations go, no one's accused me of holding back. If anything, I might have been too eager in some cases. For a mundane example, I have one friend who got a little mad at me that his wife paid attention to my movie suggestions more than his own. Which is to say, I'm expressing "like" enough times that it even has it's downsides. While another friend complimented me that she thought I was her "go to" friend for music (not that I see myself as some hipster or anything.. that was just her perspective). Yesterday, I probably spent 3 hours just talking about all kinds of subjects with my neighbors. Everything from recording equipment, to my disgust with prospects of exploring Mars, to how the gamecube version of Twilight Princess is better than the Wii. I have all kinds of likes, and they are verbalized.
My friends listen to my suggestions to, but this doesn't mean they follow my likes/dislikes or that I verbalize them directly.
I might say "xxx is pretty good." This is not a personal statement. This is not a "I like". Plenty of things are pretty good, but they don't necessarily create any sort of personal attachment and I'm much more willing to comment on competence and other qualities then a personal sentiment.
Isn't that exactly what the guy was doing by hiding the comic book from people's sight? Wouldn't the Fi ego you describe be rather shamelessly direct and explicit in sharing his likes and dislikes with other people?
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