Female ENTj, Activation Q

[ENJoymENT]

Is it likely that a relationship of Activity causes ENTj to become more like INTp, and ESFp more like ISFj? Realizing that all of that Te + Se would be overkill, and is neither needed nor sought after as strongly by the other, it leads both to focus more on their introverted functions. It's akin to each realizing they've been spinning their wheels trying to appease, entertain, or manipulate the outer world to create happiness, when in fact the inner world and who they truly are was being neglected and suppressed. It is my opinion that this is healthier for both types, since taking the edge off an ENTj's Te & an ESFp's Se, would be beneficial to everyone . From what I've read however (Stratiyevskaya), this relationship type is generally discouraged due to the predicted result of over-activation. Unfortunately I don't have any dual experience to my knowledge to compare this to. Anyone agree/disagree, or had similar experiences? Thanks.

[ENJoymENT]

Would it be a cyber faux pas to repost my Q in the Gamma Forum? Perhaps that is where the Gamma Intertype experts frequent.

[Amber]

Is it likely that a relationship of Activity causes ENTj to become more like INTp, and ESFp more like ISFj? Realizing that all of that Te + Se would be overkill, and is neither needed nor sought after as strongly by the other, it leads both to focus more on their introverted functions. It's akin to each realizing they've been spinning their wheels trying to appease, entertain, or manipulate the outer world to create happiness, when in fact the inner world and who they truly are was being neglected and suppressed. It is my opinion that this is healthier for both types, since taking the edge off an ENTj's Te & an ESFp's Se, would be beneficial to everyone . From what I've read however (Stratiyevskaya), this relationship type is generally discouraged due to the predicted result of over-activation. Unfortunately I don't have any dual experience to my knowledge to compare this to. Anyone agree/disagree, or had similar experiences? Thanks.

Hi,

I was married to my activator and I could see some of what Strati says. I think extroverted types have an easier way of dealing with Activity. In my case each had to take turns playing a more expansive/outward-oriented role (this didn't happen deliberately, it was a way the relationship self-regulated). Activity is one of the most favorable relationships objectively speaking (disregarding personal factors of compatibility between those involved). What Socionists call "over-activation" can be dealt with by letting the relationship breathe more freely (not literally "taking a day off per week", as they say, but allowing some form of distance once in a while).

[ENJoymENT]

Thank you! So interesting--the onion layers of complexity. Factoring in that ENTj/ESFp's extraversion makes Activation play out a certain way...plus Enneagram types, subtypes, instinctual stackings, plus life experiences, upbringing etc. It's tempting to "pull an INTj" and retreat with this mamoth equation to mull over. However I just don't have the Se nor the Si to get started and tackle all those details to come up with an answer that's merely "in the abstract". Yes Activation is better than most inter-type combinations, yet Stratiyevskaya's description ends in the ESFp cheating on the ENTj just before the wedding haha Plus the key words in your post: " I WAS married to my Activator..." No judgement!!!, just disappointment I dated an ESFp in my late teens for several years...loved him deeply...it ended when I leant him my Dad's pickup truck to go to a party while I was working, on the condition he didn't drink & drive or do anything that would involve me having to disappoint my Dad. Then I found out he was driving around with the back of the truck piled full of people and was drinking. It wasn't the party irresponsibility that bothered me most because had it not been my Dad's truck I would have piled in too! It was the fear of tethering my life to someone I couldn't count on to put my needs and vulnerabilities along with his into his own ego. ENTj + ESFp has an underlying element of two pit bulls that love one another and get along...yet you can't shake the fear that if it comes head-to-head, it ain't gonna be pretty!

[Amber]

Thank you! So interesting--the onion layers of complexity. Factoring in that ENTj/ESFp's extraversion makes Activation play out a certain way...plus Enneagram types, subtypes, instinctual stackings, plus life experiences, upbringing etc. It's tempting to "pull an INTj" and retreat with this mamoth equation to mull over. However I just don't have the Se nor the Si to get started and tackle all those details to come up with an answer that's merely "in the abstract". Yes Activation is better than most inter-type combinations, yet Stratiyevskaya's description ends in the ESFp cheating on the ENTj just before the wedding haha Plus the key words in your post: " I WAS married to my Activator..." No judgement!!!, just disappointment I dated an ESFp in my late teens for several years...loved him deeply...it ended when I leant him my Dad's pickup truck to go to a party while I was working, on the condition he didn't drink & drive or do anything that would involve me having to disappoint my Dad. Then I found out he was driving around with the back of the truck piled full of people and was drinking. It wasn't the party irresponsibility that bothered me most because had it not been my Dad's truck I would have piled in too! It was the fear of tethering my life to someone I couldn't count on to put my needs and vulnerabilities along with his into his own ego. ENTj + ESFp has an underlying element of two pit bulls that love one another and get along...yet you can't shake the fear that if it comes head-to-head, it ain't gonna be pretty!

Man, you are quite a pile of for a LIE. Stratiyevskaya is a bit mad and paranoid and she often depicts the most ridiculous and negative scenarios and tries to generalize starting from 1-2 sordid cases she encountered. I would't take her predictions too seriously. Stuff you can find here is way more realistic: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...vity-Relations

yeah, I used the past tense, but I made it clear Activity is a cool combo. And now I'm dating another Activator. No intertype relationship is gonna offer you a guarantee of eternal happiness.

[ENJoymENT]

Thank you for the link I can't wait to read it later because I have to clean up for a party. Parties are my best Te invention to actualize (Se) an acceptably tidy home. By leaving the chore to the last minute, I manipulate the parameters to protect PoLR Si by consoling myself "wow it looks GREAT given that I only had 2 hours". Meanwhile, it's lame. Haha Cheers. What type are you? Whatever type Stratiyevskaya is though I like her, she's not dull...I like her flair for the dramatic.

[blackburry]

huh?


... i take it you're considering contacting him again after all these years to rekindle whatever romance you had? do it. you'll either find out he's a mess or that he's become someone more agreeable.


or don't and find someone else. *~*~

[ENJoymENT]

Solaris: thank you for the Activation articles link! Although Activity is often considered the best pairing behind duality, I'm realizing that it definitely has challenges! This analogy may just be confined to extroverted activators, or just gamma, or to LIE/SEE in particular, but these relationships seem like a duel (yet not a dual!). The partners believe they have found an equal opponent, as each is strong where the other is weak. They are surprised and delighted to find that the degree of vulnerability in one also matches that of the other. LIE/SEE soon cast off their dominant weapons of Te&Se, as they see that they go unchallenged and are hands-down superior. That leaves the SEE to creatively manipulate the feelings of the LIE using Fi, and the LIE to underhandedly control pace strategy and timing with Ni...the trickster. It's an even match of intrigue and Gamma games. Haha. And I'm lured into the game and the challenge. There are times where there are no weapons and it seems like that is the desired ultimate destination, yet it's a mirage. Because I realize that with ESFp, I lose--they don't want to arrive, they love the intrigue, competitiveness and journey of the duel. LIEs have outer control in life but their insides are in turmoil. The opposite is true of the SEE--their outer lives are a disaster yet they accept their feelings and know who they are. If one partner is adept at manipulating feelings, then if the duel takes place within the parameters of a relationship it is clear who the winner will be. Sorry to put it in those terms, it is only my experience with 2 SEEs in my life. It may just be my subconscious disappointment with an experience of "almost duality", which I've not experienced as a comparison. The Activation articles contain the following descriptions: "emotional exhaustion is common", "these relationships are permeated by turbulent emotion", "the dynamics of activity relationships is characterized by a steady increase of tensions, which leads to violent discharge of emotions". So the ESFp is thinking "yay bring it on, more stimulation/fuel for the fire!". Meanwhile ENTj is thinking "WTF is going on with me??!?". It's bad acid.

[ENJoymENT]

Blackburry: No. I'm still in (very infrequent) contact with the original ESFp, and yes he is a mess, and in a relationship with someone difficult (she's an alcoholic) yet he loves her and they have a child and I'm proud of him. He sent me a message on FB 2 years ago, it merely said "I love you." I didn't respond because he knows I always will. I would never complicate his life. The main reason I broke it off was because the truck incident pointed me to the reality that "wow he can actually blatantly hurt me!". I just knew I was too sensitive to constantly deal with such boldness because it would make me either shrivel away and become a victim (inferior Fi), or force me to step up and challenge (lame Se). Neither were right for me. Plus, at that time he was seriously getting into coke (hey it was the 80s!); he was 4 years older, no job...I had 3 jobs plus was in university and was beginning to feel like the parent I don't fault ESFp for this, but I think they have the potential to seriously hurt ENTj with their careless use of Se. I know they're sensitive underneath which is the part I love, yet their dominant and competitive Se can sometimes present like an elephant in a china shop; perhaps the insular INTp is more thick skinned and adept to accept this. Then I went all opposite and chose an INTj (contrary!), which was very NT and corporate and safe (inferior Fi meets inferior Fe!). That broke down and then met ESFp2. I only in retrospect realized the ESFp1 was an ESFp, because I had never waded back through my life to retroactively type everyone. But someone you dated for 4 years is definitely easy to type. Cheers

[ENJoymENT]

@Solaris: I was thinking that activation relationships may not be as difficult for other types. But for LIE and LSE, having Fi as their inferior function makes the frugal and intermittent offerings of it by SEE and IEE distressful. Doing without adequate helpings of T S or N can never be as insecurity provoking as being denied F (imo), because feelings go to the very heart and strength of the relationship itself. Making an already insecure area doubly painful. It feels like they're choosing to withhold closeness when they're capable of giving it so perfectly *sometimes*. The truth of the matter is however, that it's unfair to them to be expected to exhaustively use their second function all the time, even if they want to do it for you. Just my opinion, coming from the Inferior Fi-side.

[ENJoymENT]

Perhaps this excerpt from Gulenko Communication Styles illuminates the particular impediment between LIE & SEE. It is satisfying to see cold hard reasons for things; removing the scenario out of the personal realm and into the conceptual.

"5. Less than optimal scenarios

1. Passionate and Business Types in Communication


This life scenario, perhaps the most dynamic and controversial. Since both extroverts, each partner seeks to change behavior. Both active and unwilling to adapt to the other. Business finds an outlet in more cases, and are eager to find out the worsening relations. Conflict because of this even more inflated.
In relationships with others, both trying to actively influence the outside world and begin to compete among themselves for leadership. Moreover, business in these collisions play a more active role, because he believes that his passionate emotional incontinence common cause harm. Couple turns peevish: it is very difficult to achieve stability against both internal and external negative factors against."

Apparently the ILI (Cold-Blooded) is unaffected by the emotionality of the SEE (Passionate), and the ESI (Sincere) smooths the emotional edges of the LIE (Business), thereby providing a natural complement as opposed to a challenge.

[Amber]

Perhaps this excerpt from Gulenko Communication Styles illuminates the particular impediment between LIE & SEE. It is satisfying to see cold hard reasons for things; removing the scenario out of the personal realm and into the conceptual.

"5. Less than optimal scenarios

1. Passionate and Business Types in Communication


This life scenario, perhaps the most dynamic and controversial. Since both extroverts, each partner seeks to change behavior. Both active and unwilling to adapt to the other. Business finds an outlet in more cases, and are eager to find out the worsening relations. Conflict because of this even more inflated.
In relationships with others, both trying to actively influence the outside world and begin to compete among themselves for leadership. Moreover, business in these collisions play a more active role, because he believes that his passionate emotional incontinence common cause harm. Couple turns peevish: it is very difficult to achieve stability against both internal and external negative factors against."

Apparently the ILI (Cold-Blooded) is unaffected by the emotionality of the SEE (Passionate), and the ESI (Sincere) smooths the emotional edges of the LIE (Business), thereby providing a natural complement as opposed to a challenge.

yes, but the conceptual often impoverishes the personal . I haven't seen LIE-SEE relationship irl, but I picture both types to be stubborn and the Se in the middle could make them enjoy the thrill of some little power games. LIE might want to control stuff while SEE wants to be free to play at will. But you really do think about it a lot ...like you consider rekindling the whole stuff if theory sounds promising .

[ENJoymENT]

Haha, @Solaris are u my dual?? In all honesty I use the conceptual as a tool to bury the personal alive in logic. If I can fabrica-Te an iron-clad rationalization as to why the relationship is a futile undertaking, and is pre-ordained to failure/heartache, then I can spare myself the trouble and get out in the Ni-ck of time. It's all an attempt to whittle away and sharpen the arrowhead compass to find my path of true North.

Yes it's true I think about it a lot. It is not like I have several relationships simmering on different burners. I have the one, well actually now--zero . I only discovered Socionics a year ago, and have had 3 serious relationships: 1. SEE (Activity), 2. INTj (Contrary), and 3. SEE (Activity). The irony is not lost on me that I went from Activation to Extinguishment to Activation again. In my relations with all types other than SEE, there is a permanent micro-barrier between myself and the other person, thus protecting my autonomy. In a way Activation opened a new Door...to myself. It seemed I needed SEE in order to Fi-nd myself (I've not known a Dual). It's been wonderful in that Se-nse. Yet I believe I've compiled enough evidence to fuel my resolve to move on. My main motto is to live without regrets, so I came on this Forum with the intent to sort this issue out, and to believe solidly in my direction. Many thanks.

[Amber]

Haha, @Solaris are u my dual?? In all honesty I use the conceptual as a tool to bury the personal alive in logic.

If you can do that and that's what you need .... great .
I'm not sure I'm your dual, I may be. Or I might be LSI or even some other Se/Ni introvert. I'm still in process of figuring things out. It's cool that you don't doubt your ENTj-ness.

[ENJoymENT]

Yes--something to be said for being tested (MBTI) in a seminar prior to having an opportunity to read anything. Self analysis and the ensuing self doubt is surprising, and frustrating! With all the available info, typing should be unfailingly foolproof, yet I've had a difficult time typing my own mother. Given that functional scores fall along a spectrum, it makes for a myriad of unique makeups.

My 2 cents: I feel a lot of Ti from you, in that you are clever where I've missed a spot (may just mean you're smarter ). You may gain the most clarity by approaching it from the back end, through your Intertype Relations. Seeking and assessing the experiences of Supervision, Conflicting relations...knowing when you're encountering Extinguishment, could give you the certainty to eliminate the doubt. The negative relations seem to be more easily identifiable. You have been most helpful to me--thank you!